Is mankind headed downhill?

How True Mott. If one were to read, and take any portion, of this forum seriously it would explain why some species eat their young

Too bad 'retroactive' abortion cannot be utilized on a 'case-by-case' basis.....

quote:

Originally posted by Mott The Hoople:
"Every society, with a few isolated exceptions, has afforded special protection to the family. This protection is rooted in the nature of the human person: clearly no society can long survive without new members being raised to fill the places of the old, and lacking a family new members cannot be born and raised to responsible maturity."


We are fast losing that 'special protection'.


moral law

Please explain what this "special protection" actually is and how it is being lost.

quote:

Originally posted by Mott The Hoople:
"Every society, with a few isolated exceptions, has afforded special protection to the family. This protection is rooted in the nature of the human person: clearly no society can long survive without new members being raised to fill the places of the old, and lacking a family new members cannot be born and raised to responsible maturity."


We are fast losing that 'special protection'.


moral law

I agree big guy! one thing to remember, if you don't think like them,if you don't do the things the way they do, then you're NOT ONE of them. Hmmmm

Who is "them"......is there someone out there? Someone that we all should be aware of and be ready to do battle with......our biggest "them" is that little thing inside us that we ignore most of the time to our own perile...

quote:

Who is "them"......is there someone out there? Someone that we all should be aware of and be ready to do battle with......our biggest "them" is that little thing inside us that we ignore most of the time to our own perile...

you

quote:

Originally posted by Mott The Hoople:
"Every society, with a few isolated exceptions, has afforded special protection to the family. This protection is rooted in the nature of the human person: clearly no society can long survive without new members being raised to fill the places of the old, and lacking a family new members cannot be born and raised to responsible maturity."


We are fast losing that 'special protection'.


moral law

'Splain t'me how you judge the increasing labor force due to immigration? Legal or illegal? The immigrant workforce has a very large economic benefit. A MATURE INDIVIDUAL, who comes into a laborforce fully formed, from a society other than ours cost us nothing. We benefit from the schooling, good or bad, that was provided by the culture that lost that individual. THAT IS THE MEANING OF BRAIN DRAIN TO THE NATIONS LOOSING THE LABOR FORCE, and that is the major reason the immigration problem is such a complex issue. When a Greek or Romanian Doctor immigrtes to the USA, the Greek, or Romanian Society nurtured that doctor to maturity, only to loose that doctor to us. And we have virtually no investment in that doctor's training.
Same is true for a Meican Carpenter, or chicken butcher.

quote:

Originally posted by logical:

quote:

Originally posted by Mott The Hoople:
"Every society, with a few isolated exceptions, has afforded special protection to the family. This protection is rooted in the nature of the human person: clearly no society can long survive without new members being raised to fill the places of the old, and lacking a family new members cannot be born and raised to responsible maturity."


We are fast losing that 'special protection'.


moral law

Please explain what this "special protection" actually is and how it is being lost.

I took a look at the "Moral Law" posted. The first sentance is "Some claim that moral norms are `just a social construct.'"

It is a social construct. It is reflected in institutions. For the sake of arguement (ar·gu·ment: Pronunciation: 'är-gy&-m&nt; Function: noun: . . . . 2 a : a reason given in proof or rebuttal b : discourse intended to persuade) I am going to broadly define "institution" as a significant practice, relationship, or organization in a society or culture <the institution of marriage>. Let us begin with the smallest institution, Marriage. It has a moral code, Wife and Husband are faithful to one another, rejecting all others etc. It has a legal code, Half the property belongs to each, or some other division, ranging from All the property belongs to the husband, and RARELY, all the property belongs to the Wife. In the American system, the civil union has provisions for any children, provisions for survivors, provisions for tax benefits, and penalties, and provision for division should either party find the division necessary, divorce.
Again, quoting "Moral Law," "These moral rights protect the human person and allow him to achieve his end in life. In the modern age, respect for these moral principles have been upheld through the promulgation of human rights." They apply in the instution of marriage, and in the instution of school, and the institution of workplace, and so on, up to the institution of Nation. At this moment in history, there is an effort to apply these moral principals to the institution of World Civilization.
Again, quoting, "Another example of agreement between is the institution of religion. No stable society has existed without some provision for the worship of a god or gods. Again, this provision is rooted in the nature of the human person: man is limited and his fate is ultimately not in his own power to determine; he has a natural need of expressing his dependence on the greatest of all mysteries, God," the last sentance of "Moral Law" The contention is true, No society has existed without SOME provision for worship. THE PROVISIONS OF DIFFERENT SOCIETIES ARE DIFFERENT. However the Basic and fundamental principals are universal. 1) love your neighbor. 2) Accept the Stranger. 3) do unto others and you would have others do unto you.
There are some concocted differences, for example, "Japanese have no respect for Human life. Their religion teaches hari kari." That is a LIE. The Japanese Religion teaches that Honor is Life, and Dishoner is death. It is an enforcer of the Moral Law, "Bring Honor to your Ancestors." This Moral Law, ingrained in Japanese institutions is quite similar to Honor your Father and Mother, and I am your Lord, Your God, have no other Gods before me." In Shinto, the creators are the Ancestors. So, in that regard, Shinto combines Judeo Christian faith in God and Family into Ancestors and Parents.
By concentrating on the institutional differences the leaders of Religions teach their followers that the Other is Different, Immoral, and Dangerous. In all institutions, Different is ALWAYS OK. Men are different from Women, so it is OK for an institution to embrace a man and a woman. Moral Law requires faithfulness, and defines it cleaving only to the husband or wife, rejecting all others. A husband or wife who does not remain faithful becomes immoral, and dangerous.
Mott argues that there are societies that do not afford special protections to the family. He says they are the rare exception. HE IS NOT CORRECT. All societies afford protection to the family. These protections are not "special" they are universal within the society, and some are univesal. There are exceptions to the protections Christian Societies provide for families. Example the ancient "Right of the First night." A Feudal "Moral Law" giving the lord of the fiefdom the right to bed the bride of a surf on the first night of the marriage.
Or the "Moral Law" allowing a slave owner the right to beat or kill the husband or wife of a slave. Both of those laws were supported by the Church, and have been repealed by the State.

Here we come to the controversy in seperation of Church and State. Churches, however honorable and just, are NEVER democracies. The leader of the Church is chosen by the Church. Some, generally small congregations select their leaders democratically, but they select them from an appointed board of candidates. The pastor of every Lutheran Church is chosen by the Church Council and affirmed by the congregation in a ballot. BUT, every person in the Board of Candidates is first appointed by the Bishop of the Diocese. In some churches, the Pastor appoints himself, establishes the congregation, and accepts into the congregation only those who are in agreement with his intrepretation of "Moral Law."
American Civil Authority rests on a Constitution that PROHIBITS religious test for elective office, and requires a secular test. Candidates MUST be citizens in good standing.
That Same Constitution Prohibits the State from favoring any religion over any other, and also prohibits the establishment of any religion by the state.
The arguement Mott presents for religious guidance is moot. Moral Law applies already. His arguement that HIS moral law should apply to preserve the state rests on the idea that the Church should have supremacy over the state, and that it should be HIS church that has that supremacy.

I CANNOT AGREE WITH THAT PRINCIPAL.

quote:

'Splain t'me how you judge the increasing labor force due to immigration? Legal or illegal?

This thread is concerning 'moral values'...the Mexicans have every 'moral' right to be here...who drew the lines in the sand anyway?

(For the inept...'lines in the sand'=country borders.)

quote:

I took a look at the "Moral Law" posted. The first sentance is "Some claim that moral norms are `just a social construct.'"

Post toooooooo long...no answer.

Let me pose this to you Ed...who does society belong to?

If the world were made up of homosexuals...how long before it ends? Is 100 years a resonable expectation?

quote:

Originally posted by Mott The Hoople:
Let me pose this to you Ed...who does society belong to?

If the world were made up of homosexuals...how long before it ends? Is 100 years a resonable expactation?

OK Mott,

Society does not "belong" to anyone.

Society is EVERYONE.

Homosexuals are a part of the larger Society.

The larger Society, is made up of individuals, and other societies.
"Society" is a big word.
Main Entry: 1)so·ci·e·ty
Pronunciation: s&-'sI-&-tE
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -ties
Etymology: Middle French societé, from Latin societat-, societas, from socius companion -- more at SOCIAL
1 : companionship or association with one's fellows : friendly or intimate intercourse : COMPANY
2 : a voluntary association of individuals for common ends; especially : an organized group working together or periodically meeting because of common interests, beliefs, or profession
3 a : an enduring and cooperating social group whose members have developed organized patterns of relationships through interaction with one another b : a community, nation, or broad grouping of people having common traditions, institutions, and collective activities and interests
4 a : a part of a community that is a unit distinguishable by particular aims or standards of living or conduct : a social circle or a group of social circles having a clearly marked identity <literary society> b : a part of the community that sets itself apart as a leisure class and that regards itself as the arbiter of fashion and manners
5 a : a natural group of plants usually of a single species or habit within an association b : the progeny of a pair of insects when constituting a social unit (as a hive of bees); broadly : an interdependent system of organisms or biological units

Your question should have been, "If the larger society includes a society of homosexuals alongside a society of heterosexuals, how long can that society exist?"

The answer is "indefinitely" unless the society of heterosexuals TURNS ON THE SOCIETY OF HOMOSEXUALS.

Then, the LARGER society is altered permanently.

You have said, or at least implied that you like the society you live in, and the larger society it is part of.

You live in the society of Heterosexuals. It is part of the larger society that includes the society of Homosexuals.

You like the subset you live in, AND the larger society as well. You enjoy music, but are not part of the music society. Unless you are a MUSICIAN. You enjoy the society of the NFL but, unless you are a player, coach or owner, you are not part of the NFL society. The Music Society, the NFL society, The Heterosexual society and the Homosexual Society are all part of "The Larger Society."

Your rhetorical question, "If the world were made up of homosexuals...how long before it ends?" is nonsensical. Your answer, "Is 100 years a resonable expactation?" Begs the question.

It is like asking, If All Cars were built in the year 1928, and no cars were built before or since, HOW MANY CARS WOULD THERE BE TODAY?

You see Mott, you started with the premise that Homosexuals do not self replicate, and therfore if ONLY homosexuals existed, NO ONE WOULD EXIST after one generation. True, Homosexuals DO NOT SELF REPLICATE. The individual homosexual lasts one generation. The Fact that there are now, and have been homosexuals in SOCIETY since the beginning of Biblical Time proves that homosexuals are being CREATED in every generation.

The larger society includes, and has always included a smaller society of homosexuals. That smaller society has always contrubuted to the larger society in every way that the heterosexual society has contributed, except ONE. Homosexuals do not produce more members of either their society or the heterosexual society.

Mott, I timed the above, it took 2 and a half minutes to read aloud. Is that to long?

quote:

Originally posted by Mott The Hoople:

quote:

I took a look at the "Moral Law" posted. The first sentance is "Some claim that moral norms are `just a social construct.'"

Post toooooooo long...no answer.

OK, shorter answer.

I took a look at the "Moral Law" posted. The first sentence is "Some claim that moral norms are `just a social construct.'"

Moral Law is not JUST A SOCIAL CONSTRUCT, it is the framework for Civilized Society.

Societies that break the Moral Law, or social contract, COLLAPSE.

The USA today is violating the social contract. Common Citizens are being UNJUSTLY EXPLOITED BY THE WEALTHY AND PRIVILEGED.

I am going to broadly define society and culture . It is what we call civilizaton, which is the peaceful existence of small societies in common ground. And I mean on the same REAL ESTATE.

Again, quoting, "Another example of agreement between is the institution of religion. No stable society has existed without some provision for the worship of a god or gods."

That statement may or may not be true, it is an unsupported assertion. THE PROVISIONS OF DIFFERENT SOCIETIES ARE DIFFERENT. The Moral Law, regardless of its "Source" is the same, and universal. The Six Commandments, "Do Not Kill, Do Not Commit Adultery, Do Not Steal, Do Not Witness Falsely, Honor Your Father and Mother, and Love your Neighbor as yourself." (those six are universal, and in this example quoted from Matthew 18:18)

There are some concocted differences. They are propoganda. NO SOCIETY EXISTS THAT DOES NOT FOLLOW THE SIX COMMANDMENTS. In fact, GOD is not necessary for the six commandments to be universal. Without them as a framwork, a civilization cannot thrive.

The protections provided by the commandments are not "special" they are universal. There are some variations, some protections in one society that are not found in another, but they are not fundamental differences. Monogamy is not universal, but even in societies with polygamy, adultery is forbidden.

Short(er) Mott, not short

Society is NOT A POSSESSION.

quote:

Originally posted by Mott The Hoople:
"Every society, with a few isolated exceptions, has afforded special protection to the family. This protection is rooted in the nature of the human person: clearly no society can long survive without new members being raised to fill the places of the old, and lacking a family new members cannot be born and raised to responsible maturity."


We are fast losing that 'special protection'.


moral law

Nott,
I cannot seem to let go of the opening shot of this thread.

It is the "We are fast losing that 'special protection.'"

What protection of marriage is lost by expanding the protection of marriage to people now denied it?

Ho is it that a society that has been around for 4500 years and has had homosexuals in it for 4500 years is threatened with extinction by having homosexuals in the society?

Mott,

Too Many Plastic eggs. not enough frying pans.

What is the shell of a hand grenegg called?

A bombshell.

quote:

The USA today is violating the social contract. Common Citizens are being UNJUSTLY EXPLOITED BY THE WEALTHY AND PRIVILEGED.

Now...delete 'WEALTHY AND PRIVILEGED' and replace it with HOMOSEXUALS, then you will see my point. The heterosexuals created this society, they are the only hope for it continuing. The homosexuals are freeloaders on this society.

quote:

Ho is it that a society that has been around for 4500 years and has had homosexuals in it for 4500 years is threatened with extinction by having homosexuals in the society?

You distort the truth...the homosexual trend is fast growing...attended any gay pride events latly?

This trend will influence this society...the society that I can claim to help make...I don't like seeing it destroyed with devient lifestyles.

quote:

Originally posted by elijah435:
Who is "them"......is there someone out there? Someone that we all should be aware of and be ready to do battle with......our biggest "them" is that little thing inside us that we ignore most of the time to our own perile...

Good point, and guess what? it would still be them.

quote:

Originally posted by Mott The Hoople:

quote:

Ho is it that a society that has been around for 4500 years and has had homosexuals in it for 4500 years is threatened with extinction by having homosexuals in the society?

You distort the truth...the homosexual trend is fast growing...attended any gay pride events latly?

This trend will influence this society...the society that I can claim to help make...I don't like seeing it destroyed with devient lifestyles.

WELL SAID!
You make a good point,But, I don't know what the answer is.

quote:

Originally posted by Mott The Hoople:

quote:

The USA today is violating the social contract. Common Citizens are being UNJUSTLY EXPLOITED BY THE WEALTHY AND PRIVILEGED.

Now...delete 'WEALTHY AND PRIVILEGED' and replace it with HOMOSEXUALS, then you will see my point. The heterosexuals created this society, they are the only hope for it continuing. The homosexuals are freeloaders on this society.

Freeloaders? Can anyone actually be that ignorant? So anyone who doesn't reproduce (regardless of sexual orientation) for whatever reason aren't contributing to the continuation of society and are merely freeloaders? Or is *only* the homosexuals?

Homosexuals actually *can* reproduce. There are many homosexuals who already have and many others who will do so in the future. Sheesh.

quote:

Originally posted by Mott The Hoople:

quote:

Ho is it that a society that has been around for 4500 years and has had homosexuals in it for 4500 years is threatened with extinction by having homosexuals in the society?

You distort the truth...the homosexual trend is fast growing...attended any gay pride events latly?

This trend will influence this society...the society that I can claim to help make...I don't like seeing it destroyed with devient lifestyles.

Do you actually think that there are more homosexuals percentage-wise than there has ever been? MOst likely not. What has changed is that homosexuals are not as willing to hide and simply act like something they aren't just to please some ignorant heterosexuals who think that they are better people simply because they were born heterosexual.

I think people with attitudes like yours do far more harm to society than a few homosexuals. A simple look through history supports this.

quote:

Homosexuals actually *can* reproduce. There are many homosexuals who already have and many others who will do so in the future. Sheesh.

Not without a THIRD party...and artificially at that...you just can't provide a valid argument...so...you resort to name calling.


You get the gist of my argument, but you want to go outside the box to rebut...thats logical...

quote:

I think people with attitudes like yours do far more harm to society than a few homosexuals.

Explain away...the floor is yours.

all you guys on here enjoy slamming us females, plenty of crap from most of you come our way on just about any and every subject we attempt tp post a comment.
I am having so much fun counting how many threads you guys are creating and hijacking to the subject of gays.

quote:

Originally posted by Mott The Hoople:

quote:

Homosexuals actually *can* reproduce. There are many homosexuals who already have and many others who will do so in the future. Sheesh.

Not without a THIRD party...and artificially at that...you just can't provide a valid argument...so...you resort to name calling.


You get the gist of my argument, but you want to go outside the box to rebut...thats logical...

The argument is quite valid. Look at the world around you. Reproduction is reproduction. What exactly does a third party or medical assistance have to do with it? Heterosexuals use the same methods to reproduce as well. Are you saying that anyone who has children by any means other than what *you* deem worthy are not contributing to society. If so, that's simply ridiculous.

If you were unaware of those things then you *are* ignorant. If you choose to ignore them so that you can continue to support your rhetoric then you are something else entirely.

quote:

Originally posted by Mott The Hoople:

quote:

I think people with attitudes like yours do far more harm to society than a few homosexuals.

Explain away...the floor is yours.

You demean and devalue those who don't live according to your edicts. Such attitudes in the past have led to genocide, war, and other atrocities.

The world is full of different people with different cultures with different values. We don't all have to be the same. People who are different from us do make important contributions.

Outside the box again??? lol

genoside, war and other atrocities. lol

Mott,

Maybe homosexuality is nature's solution to the population problem?

Five Axioms To Sustainability

The homosexual agenda: " 9:00 am - Starbucks, 10:00 am - the gym, 11:00 am - the spa"
Bill Mahr

Miamizun...


It is my contention that homosexuals are 'freeloaders' since they cannot "sustain" the world society as we know it.

quote:

Originally posted by logical:

quote:

Originally posted by Mott The Hoople:

quote:

I think people with attitudes like yours do far more harm to society than a few homosexuals.

Explain away...the floor is yours.

You demean and devalue those who don't live according to your edicts. Such attitudes in the past have led to genocide, war, and other atrocities.

The world is full of different people with different cultures with different values. We don't all have to be the same. People who are different from us do make important contributions.

That is SOOOOOO VERY true, logical... so true!!!

Homosexuals freeloaders? Part of that CAN be true, but I know a heck of a lot more heterosexuals who are freeloaders, on welfare, use people... the whole nine yards.

Bet you wouldnt scream nary a word if you knew all the Social Security you draw at retirement came from the Homosexual society's input... if you KNEW... Nahhh, you wouldn't give it back though.... that would be a different subject

quote:

Homosexuals freeloaders? Part of that CAN be true, but I know a heck of a lot more heterosexuals who are freeloaders, on welfare, use people... the whole nine yards.

Bet you wouldnt scream nary a word if you knew all the Social Security you draw at retirement came from the Homosexual society's input... if you KNEW... Nahhh, you wouldn't give it back though.... that would be a different subject

Freeloaders on SOCIETY...NOT financial freeloaders. You don't grasp the concept.

quote:

Originally posted by Mott The Hoople:

quote:

Homosexuals freeloaders? Part of that CAN be true, but I know a heck of a lot more heterosexuals who are freeloaders, on welfare, use people... the whole nine yards.

Bet you wouldnt scream nary a word if you knew all the Social Security you draw at retirement came from the Homosexual society's input... if you KNEW... Nahhh, you wouldn't give it back though.... that would be a different subject

Freeloaders on SOCIETY...NOT financial freeloaders. You don't grasp the concept.

See??? I told ya!!

quote:

Originally posted by tdreader:
Is mankind headed downhill? It feels like we have crossed the valley and are now starting up the base of the next mountain.

I would love for this to be true, and maybe it is, maybe there are just some people who want to stay downhill? I really believe that there are people who love wallowing in misery... done seen too much of it in my many years on this planet

quote:

Originally posted by smurph:
all you guys on here enjoy slamming us females, plenty of crap from most of you come our way on just about any and every subject we attempt tp post a comment.
I am having so much fun counting how many threads you guys are creating and hijacking to the subject of gays.

Quite respectfully, I have to strongly disagree with you. I see no point in genderizing these forums. I didn't respond to a couple of other posts you made where you pointed out your gender in a way that I thought was unnecessary and irrelevant to the topic at hand. But here, I must speak up and self-identify as a female who disagrees.

Plenty of slamming goes on here, and "plenty of crap" is thrown about, but I feel that little has anything to do with the poster's or commenter's gender. Mostly, the extreme slamming can be attributed to the fact that the person is either a jerk or simply upset or perhaps really touchy about a particular point. I assure you that the fact you were born with a uterus probably isn't involved, just as the fact that they were born with the male counterpart didn't lead them to be the jerk or aggravated person that made a rude comment.

As for starting threads: how is gender relevant? I just started one about restaurants on the Feedback Forum, and I didn't give a thought at all to my gender. Female or male, I saw a need to post. As for the obsession with gays on here, well, the negative comments are quite sad - regardless of gender.

Granted, you are navigating in the waters of the patriarchy. But please swim against the stream, but not into it.