Hi to my Forum Friends,
In the discussion begun by VP titled "A Case Against Sola Scriptura" -- Nagel has written, "Jesus=God=Holy Ghost. Ergo - Mary was the mother of God. She can't be Jesus' mother and not be the Mother of God, no matter how you spin your fairy story."
And, VP agrees with Nagel, "Agree. if you believe that the Father and the Son are one, it's a no-brainer."
I respond to VP, "Please explain to me how God, being preexisting and NEVER created -- can have a beginning. Birth is a beginning. Motherhood comes ONLY through giving birth. God was not born."
And, DarkAngel jumps into the discussion with, "Hold up, wait a minute. So are you saying that the bible doesn't say Mary is the mother of Jesus? "And she brought forth her firstBORN son, and wrapped him in swaddling cloths, and laid him in a manger, because there was no room for them in the inn." (Luke 2:7) Who was the "she" and (what was) all that firstBORN son junk all about then?
And if you are a Christian, I thought all you guys thought there was no such thing as something from nothing. So nothing could be preexisting. You are a very confusing and contradictory man, Mr. Gray."
Hi Dark, Welcome to the discussion. Let's take your questions in reverse. We Christians do not say that "there was no such thing as something from nothing." What we say is that the Darwinian Evolutionist theory that life came from a lifeless cell floating in a primordial swamp -- is a figment of an atheistic mind.
Why? Well, except for the life from non-life issue -- there are always those lingering unanswered questions: Who created the primordial swamp? Who created the planet on which the swamp exists? Who created that simple lifeless cell which suddenly became life? You can see the problem.
It is much like the atheist's claim of the Big Bang -- that a tiny, highly dense object hanging in space exploded and created trillions of gigantic stars and planets -- from one small object. Like the life issue -- we have those lingering unanswered questions: Who created that small, highly dense object hanging in space? Who created the space in which it hung? Who hung it there? And, who or what caused it to explode?
Actually, God did, indeed, create ALL THINGS from nothing. At one time there was only the preexisting God -- Father, Son, Holy Spirit. Then God decided, for His own reason, to change that and to create man in His own image. Therefore, we read, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" (Genesis 1:1). First, He created a home for His new mankind; then He created man. Yes, God created life from nothing. However, there is only one God and one Creator. Darwin ain't it!
Now, to your second question: So are you saying that the bible doesn't say Mary is the mother of Jesus?
Keep in mind that Jesus, during His time on earth, was fully God and fully Man. Yes, I realize that is difficult to grasp; just as the Trinity is hard to grasp. However, it is true; Biblically true. The God nature of Jesus Christ is preexisting -- from eternity past to eternity future. God had no beginning; God will have no ending. Therefore God cannot have a mother; for a mother implies birth -- and birth implies a beginning. God did not have a beginning -- therefore, God does not have a mother.
The human nature of Jesus Christ had a beginning. God, the Holy Spirit, implanted the human nature of Jesus in the womb of the blessed young virgin girl, Mary. She became the human vessel which would birth the baby, Jesus. So, somewhere around 4 BC to
1 AD, the human nature of Jesus Christ was born into a human body.
God created Adam and Eve as full adults; why did He not bring the human nature of Jesus Christ into being as a full adult? Why was He born as an infant and then have to go through the growing stages and pains of childhood, youth, and young adult life?
"Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things , so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people" (Hebrews 2:17).
We, all Christian believers, are His brethren. And, except for a sin nature and sin, Jesus Christ experienced everything you and I can and will experience:
He felt compassion: Matthew 14:14, He fed the 5000 -- Matthew 15:29-3, He healed the multitudes -- Matthew 15:32, He fed the 4000.
He wept: John 11:35, The death of Lazarus.
He was thirsty: John 4:7, The Samaritan woman at the well -- John 19:28, On the cross.
He hungered: Matthew 4:2, In the wilderness for 40 days.
He was distressed, troubled: Mark 14:33, In the Garden of Gethsemane.
He agonized: Luke 22:44, In the Garden of Gethsemane, He prayed so fervently that he sweat blood.
He needed strength: Luke 22:43, In the Garden of Gethsemane, an angel from heaven appeared to Him, strengthening Him.
He bled: John 19:1-2, Scourging, crown of thorns -- John 19:18, Nails on the cross -- John 19:34, Sword on the cross.
He died: John 19:30, It is finished! -- Luke 25:46, He breathed His last.
Yes, the human nature, the human body, of Jesus Christ was born, had a beginning, and had a mother. Did Jesus love and respect His human mother? Yes. When Jesus Christ was hanging on the cross; He gave His earthly mother into the care of His trusted and beloved apostle, John.
John 19:2627, "When Jesus then saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing nearby, He said to His mother, 'Woman, behold, your son!" Then He said to the disciple, 'Behold, your mother!' From that hour the disciple took her into his own household."
Did Jesus place Mary above other women? Did He give her a special place, a special honor, in heaven? I would say no. Why?
Matthew 12:46-50, "While He was still speaking to the crowds, behold, His mother and brothers were standing outside, seeking to speak to Him. Someone said to Him, 'Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You.'
But Jesus answered the one who was telling Him and said, 'Who is My mother and who are My brothers?' And stretching out His hand toward His disciples, He said, 'Behold My mother and My brothers! For whoever does the will of My Father who is in heaven, he is My brother and sister and mother.'"
No, Jesus did not place special honors upon His earthly mother, nor His earthly siblings. But, instead, He declared that all Christian brothers and sisters are His true family.
Romans 8:16-17, "The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs — heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ. . ."
We, the body of Christ, the body of believers worldwide, are the family of Jesus Christ -- and will one day be the honored Bride of Christ (Revelation 19:6-9).
So, Dark, VP, Nagel -- yes, Mary gave birth to the human nature, the human body, of Jesus Christ -- for that aspect, that body, of Him had a beginning -- and it died. Then, Jesus Christ resurrected in His divine, immortal body and once again took on His full divine nature of God -- which is preexisting, had no beginning -- and has no mother.
Therefore, no -- Mary is not the Mother of God; and no -- Mary is not the Queen of Heaven. Heaven has no queen -- it has only God: Father, Son, Holy Spirit, and it has the saints, billions of saints (Old Testament and New Testament) who will one day be clothed in their immortal bodies. And, at death or at the Rapture, we will join them and, after the Rapture, enjoy the eternal presence of God in our immortal bodies.
I pray that I have clearly answered your questions. I realize that VP is following her Roman Catholic teaching -- and that you, DarkAngel, and Nagel are not believers. But, I have given you answers based upon the teachings of the Bible. As a Christian, I must stand upon the Bible for there is no higher authority upon which we can stand, there is no higher authority on this earth than the Written Word of God -- for it is His God-authored User's Manual for all Christian believers.
I pray that you will one day come to that point in your life when you realize your need for His book, for His love, for His forgiveness, and for His promise of eternal life in the His presence for all who will, by grace, through faith -- believe and receive His "free gift" of salvation. I can promise you; you will be eternally happy you did.
God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,
Bill
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