Skip to main content

Hi to my Forum Friends,

In the discussion begun by VP titled "A Case Against Sola Scriptura" -- Nagel has written, "Jesus=God=Holy Ghost. Ergo - Mary was the mother of God. She can't be Jesus' mother and not be the Mother of God, no matter how you spin your fairy story."

And, VP agrees with Nagel, "Agree. if you believe that the Father and the Son are one, it's a no-brainer."

I respond to VP, "Please explain to me how God, being preexisting and NEVER created -- can have a beginning. Birth is a beginning. Motherhood comes ONLY through giving birth. God was not born."

And, DarkAngel jumps into the discussion with, "Hold up, wait a minute. So are you saying that the bible doesn't say Mary is the mother of Jesus? "And she brought forth her firstBORN son, and wrapped him in swaddling cloths, and laid him in a manger, because there was no room for them in the inn." (Luke 2:7) Who was the "she" and (what was) all that firstBORN son junk all about then?

And if you are a Christian, I thought all you guys thought there was no such thing as something from nothing. So nothing could be preexisting. You are a very confusing and contradictory man, Mr. Gray."


Hi Dark, Welcome to the discussion. Let's take your questions in reverse. We Christians do not say that "there was no such thing as something from nothing." What we say is that the Darwinian Evolutionist theory that life came from a lifeless cell floating in a primordial swamp -- is a figment of an atheistic mind.

Why? Well, except for the life from non-life issue -- there are always those lingering unanswered questions: Who created the primordial swamp? Who created the planet on which the swamp exists? Who created that simple lifeless cell which suddenly became life? You can see the problem.

It is much like the atheist's claim of the Big Bang -- that a tiny, highly dense object hanging in space exploded and created trillions of gigantic stars and planets -- from one small object. Like the life issue -- we have those lingering unanswered questions: Who created that small, highly dense object hanging in space? Who created the space in which it hung? Who hung it there? And, who or what caused it to explode?

Actually, God did, indeed, create ALL THINGS from nothing. At one time there was only the preexisting God -- Father, Son, Holy Spirit. Then God decided, for His own reason, to change that and to create man in His own image. Therefore, we read, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" (Genesis 1:1). First, He created a home for His new mankind; then He created man. Yes, God created life from nothing. However, there is only one God and one Creator. Darwin ain't it!

Now, to your second question: So are you saying that the bible doesn't say Mary is the mother of Jesus?

Keep in mind that Jesus, during His time on earth, was fully God and fully Man. Yes, I realize that is difficult to grasp; just as the Trinity is hard to grasp. However, it is true; Biblically true. The God nature of Jesus Christ is preexisting -- from eternity past to eternity future. God had no beginning; God will have no ending. Therefore God cannot have a mother; for a mother implies birth -- and birth implies a beginning. God did not have a beginning -- therefore, God does not have a mother.

The human nature of Jesus Christ had a beginning. God, the Holy Spirit, implanted the human nature of Jesus in the womb of the blessed young virgin girl, Mary. She became the human vessel which would birth the baby, Jesus. So, somewhere around 4 BC to
1 AD, the human nature of Jesus Christ was born into a human body.

God created Adam and Eve as full adults; why did He not bring the human nature of Jesus Christ into being as a full adult? Why was He born as an infant and then have to go through the growing stages and pains of childhood, youth, and young adult life?

"Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things , so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people" (Hebrews 2:17).

We, all Christian believers, are His brethren. And, except for a sin nature and sin, Jesus Christ experienced everything you and I can and will experience:

He felt compassion: Matthew 14:14, He fed the 5000 -- Matthew 15:29-3, He healed the multitudes -- Matthew 15:32, He fed the 4000.

He wept: John 11:35, The death of Lazarus.

He was thirsty: John 4:7, The Samaritan woman at the well -- John 19:28, On the cross.

He hungered: Matthew 4:2, In the wilderness for 40 days.

He was distressed, troubled: Mark 14:33, In the Garden of Gethsemane.

He agonized: Luke 22:44, In the Garden of Gethsemane, He prayed so fervently that he sweat blood.

He needed strength: Luke 22:43, In the Garden of Gethsemane, an angel from heaven appeared to Him, strengthening Him.

He bled: John 19:1-2, Scourging, crown of thorns -- John 19:18, Nails on the cross -- John 19:34, Sword on the cross.

He died: John 19:30, It is finished! -- Luke 25:46, He breathed His last.

Yes, the human nature, the human body, of Jesus Christ was born, had a beginning, and had a mother. Did Jesus love and respect His human mother? Yes. When Jesus Christ was hanging on the cross; He gave His earthly mother into the care of His trusted and beloved apostle, John.

John 19:2627, "When Jesus then saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing nearby, He said to His mother, 'Woman, behold, your son!" Then He said to the disciple, 'Behold, your mother!' From that hour the disciple took her into his own household."

Did Jesus place Mary above other women? Did He give her a special place, a special honor, in heaven? I would say no. Why?

Matthew 12:46-50, "While He was still speaking to the crowds, behold, His mother and brothers were standing outside, seeking to speak to Him. Someone said to Him, 'Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You.'

But Jesus answered the one who was telling Him and said, 'Who is My mother and who are My brothers?' And stretching out His hand toward His disciples, He said, 'Behold My mother and My brothers! For whoever does the will of My Father who is in heaven, he is My brother and sister and mother.'"


No, Jesus did not place special honors upon His earthly mother, nor His earthly siblings. But, instead, He declared that all Christian brothers and sisters are His true family.

Romans 8:16-17, "The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs — heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ. . ."

We, the body of Christ, the body of believers worldwide, are the family of Jesus Christ -- and will one day be the honored Bride of Christ (Revelation 19:6-9).

So, Dark, VP, Nagel -- yes, Mary gave birth to the human nature, the human body, of Jesus Christ -- for that aspect, that body, of Him had a beginning -- and it died. Then, Jesus Christ resurrected in His divine, immortal body and once again took on His full divine nature of God -- which is preexisting, had no beginning -- and has no mother.

Therefore, no -- Mary is not the Mother of God; and no -- Mary is not the Queen of Heaven. Heaven has no queen -- it has only God: Father, Son, Holy Spirit, and it has the saints, billions of saints (Old Testament and New Testament) who will one day be clothed in their immortal bodies. And, at death or at the Rapture, we will join them and, after the Rapture, enjoy the eternal presence of God in our immortal bodies.

I pray that I have clearly answered your questions. I realize that VP is following her Roman Catholic teaching -- and that you, DarkAngel, and Nagel are not believers. But, I have given you answers based upon the teachings of the Bible. As a Christian, I must stand upon the Bible for there is no higher authority upon which we can stand, there is no higher authority on this earth than the Written Word of God -- for it is His God-authored User's Manual for all Christian believers.

I pray that you will one day come to that point in your life when you realize your need for His book, for His love, for His forgiveness, and for His promise of eternal life in the His presence for all who will, by grace, through faith -- believe and receive His "free gift" of salvation. I can promise you; you will be eternally happy you did.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Attachments

Images (1)
  • 0_-_CROSS-BIBLE_SAID-IT-1c
Original Post

Replies sorted oldest to newest

B.G. There is so much you don't understand about Jesus, the Father and Mary
and you never will. You think you know but your blinded by your own
hate for what you can't believe because it's not what you want it
to be. IF Jesus treated your mother like you treat his ---
Well, anyway you not connecting because you can't see and you can't
feel. It's the real thing and you don't its there.

God have mercy on your egocentric soul.
Hi Gifted Child,

You tell me, "B.G. There is so much you don't understand about Jesus, the Father, and Mary and you never will."

That is true. However, since we Christian believers will always be in the learning process -- and God realized we do need a User's Manual to get us through this life, this phase of our eternal life -- He gave us His personally authored Written Word of God, the Bible, to guide us and to teach us. Therefore, for whatever we seek to know about God and Jesus Christ -- we have one source, our sole authority for knowledge of God's Word -- the Bible.

Do you understand all there is to know about God and Jesus Christ? Where did you learn it?

Then, you tell me, "You think you know -- but your (you're) blinded by your own hate for what you can't believe -- because it's not what you want it to be."

No, I honestly, sincerely do not have any hate for the Roman Catholic church nor for any Roman Catholic believers. I have people very dear to me who are Roman Catholic -- and I surely do not hate them. I love them, personally and spiritually.

However, there are many Roman Catholic doctrines which do not come from the Bible -- but, come from the men who have been running the Roman Catholic church since 300 AD. Those doctrines which are not Biblical, i.e., Mariology, Purgatory, the Eucharist, Papal authority, confessing to a priest, Papal infallibility, etc. -- I cannot believe nor follow.

However, if you and VP want to follow them, then, God bless you. Since these do not affect your salvation; be my guest. But, do not expect those of us who follow the Bible, and ignore your traditions, to do the same.

Blinded? No. Spiritually enlightened from the Bible? Yes.

Next, you ask me, "IF Jesus treated your mother like you treat his --- Well, anyway you (you're) not connecting because you can't see and you can't feel. It's the real thing and you don't its there."

Jesus DOES treat my mother just like He treats His earthly mother -- as a saint, as a Christian believer -- one of billions -- but, all precious in His sight.

You tell me, "anyway you (you're) not connecting because you can't see and you can't feel."

Not true. I see and feel quite strongly. But, my sight, my focus, mentally and spiritually, is on the Written Word of God, the Bible, -- for that is His only revelation to mankind. The Bible is the ONLY words from God that we have to follow in this life -- even though we are guided, taught, and convicted by the Holy Spirit -- we still look to the only revelation He has given us in written word -- the Bible.

Then, you tell me, "It's the real thing and you don't its there."

I am presuming you mean the Roman Catholic church, the Papacy, and their doctrines. No, these are not the real thing. The only real thing is God and His Written Word, the Bible. There is no other book, there is no other revelation written by the inspiration of God -- except the Bible. That is why it is the Sole Authority for man's salvation and to guide all Christian believers in our daily Christian walk.

Finally, you tell me, "God have mercy on your egocentric soul."

I can certainly use more of God's loving mercy and I can certainly use more of your prayers -- but, only those prayers which come from the heart and not rote from a string of beads.

Egocentric? Not sure what you are saying. I would personally say: I am Jesus-centered, Bible-guided, and God blessed.

You know, it is funny, when I disagree with VP or other Roman Catholics on the Religion Forum -- I am accused of "Catholic bashing!" Yet, you, VP, and others strongly disagree with me -- and it is called being a "Good Catholic!" Would you mind explaining the difference?

Are you maybe a wee bit guilty of "Protestant bashing!" or even "Baptist bashing!"? If not, why not?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Attachments

Images (1)
  • 0_-_CROSS-BIBLE_SOLA_Outline
BG
No I'm not bashing Baptist,Catholic or Protestant. You seem to
know more about Catholics than I do or most people.
When you presume what I think you presume wrong. The way you come
across ( just me ) is anger. When you stand before Jesus the
first thing he looks at is your heart. he reads your heart. What
makes the diffence with Jesus is " Your Capacity to Love "
quote:
Originally posted by Gifted Child:
BG
No I'm not bashing Baptist,Catholic or Protestant. You seem to
know more about Catholics than I do or most people.
When you presume what I think you presume wrong. The way you come
across ( just me ) is anger. When you stand before Jesus the
first thing he looks at is your heart. he reads your heart. What
makes the diffence with Jesus is " Your Capacity to Love "

Hi Child,

Where do you find the "anger" you say I display?

Disagreeing with someone is not showing anger. It could I suppose; but, I have never felt anger when posting -- so, why should my writings display anger? Please show me where you feel I have shown anger.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Attachments

Images (1)
  • Friends_TiggerToo_Bear_Piggy_On-Limb-TEXT
"Motherhood comes ONLY through giving birth. God was not born." -Bill Gray- off ignore just for a minute...because this was begging for a response....


A reading from the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ according to LUKE:

26In the sixth month, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, 27to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin's name was Mary. 28The angel went to her and said, "Greetings, you who are hightly favored! The Lord is with you. 29Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. 30But the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, you have found favor with God. 31You will be with child and give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus. 32He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, 33and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end."

34"How will this be," Mary asked the angel, "since I am a virgin?"

35The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. [B]You will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus."
Last edited by Former Member
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:

Jesus DOES treat my mother just like He treats His earthly mother -- as a saint, as a Christian believer -- one of billions -- but, all precious in His sight.



well, except that the idea that all people who go to heaven become saints is just as silly as the idea that all people who go to heaven become angels, i could almost buy this....

...because the woman would nearly have to have the paitience and grace of a Saint to have not drowned you at birth.

if jesus doesn't treat his own mother better than he treats someone else's, he can't be a very good person.

so.. since he IS a good person... the best, really.. it means you are wrong, yet again.

didn't you treat your mother better than other peoples mothers? don't you treat your wife better than you treat other peopels wives?
isn't Jesus much more perfect than you are?

ya know what? you never did answer my question about the garden, the trees, and adam and eve's ejection from the garden.

is your faith so weak that you don't have the ability to answer? or are you just to much of a self serving coward to defend your statments and beliefs against a question that can't be covered by a stupid cartoon?

have you no faith in your ' gift of writing' to be able to answer me?
quote:
Originally posted by Gifted Child:
BG
You need to let this go and get a good night's sleep.
I wasn't trying to pi__ you off. I said what I said
and I will said it again if I need to. I don't
believe I need to.


Don't worry gifted, Bill has to have everyone agree with him or you go into the Bill Gray Book of the Dammed. But it's fine, you will plenty of nice people in there with you.
quote:
Originally posted by Gifted Child:
BG
You need to let this go and get a good night's sleep.
I wasn't trying to pi__ you off. I said what I said
and I will said it again if I need to. I don't
believe I need to.

Hi Child,

You specifically said: "The way you come across ( just me ) is anger."

That is an accusation. I realize that you are new on the Religion Forum. However, when you come here and make a specific accusation such as that -- you should be able to supply proof of your accusation.

Please show me where I have responded or spoken in ANGER.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Attachments

Images (1)
  • Friends_TiggerToo_Bear_Piggy_On-Limb-TEXT
quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
"Motherhood comes ONLY through giving birth. God was not born." -Bill Gray- off ignore just for a minute...because this was begging for a response....

A reading from the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ according to LUKE: 26 In the sixth month, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, 27 to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin's name was Mary. 28 The angel went to her and said, "Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.

29 Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. 30 But the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, you have found favor with God. 31 You will be with child and give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus. 32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, 33 and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end."

34 "How will this be," Mary asked the angel, "since I am a virgin?"

35 The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. You will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus."

Hi VP,

Okay, I have no problem with that passage. The virgin Mary was very blessed to be chosen by God to be the human vessel through which the human nature of Jesus Christ was to be born. And, she gave birth to Him. She became a mother of the human nature of Jesus. We agree up to this -- right?

Jesus Christ was born, birthed, around 4BC to 1AD. We agree oN that, right? In about 30 to 33AD, He died -- right?

His human nature was born and it died. He then was resurrected in His immortal body, i.e, He once again took on His divine nature of God.

So, Mary gave birth, a beginning, to Jesus, the perfect Man. Jesus, the perfect Man, died, an ending. This was His man nature. Mary was the mother of that human nature.

Philippians 2:6-7, "(Christ Jesus) who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men."

Jesus was always fully God and fully Man. His God nature did not and cannot die; for God cannot die. Yet, His Man nature came to earth to DIE. That Man nature which came to die and did die -- is the Man nature which had an earthly mother.

God, who cannot die, who is preexistent -- never born, never die -- had no beginning. Therefore He had no birth. And, with no birth, no mother. Mary is not the Mother of God - nor Queen of Heaven. Those are Roman Catholic traditions begun in this millennium -- a thousand years after the fact.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Attachments

Images (1)
  • 0_-_CROSS-BIBLE_SAID-IT-1c
quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
quote:
only those prayers which come from the heart and not rote from a string of beads.

So meditation and prayer over the Gospel of our Lord is not "adequate" prayer? Wow. Beggars should not be choosers....Prayer is Prayer.

Hi VP,

Well, there are "canned" or "prewritten" prayers which some church official has written for all the followers to recite by rote -- and there are prayers from the heart -- when your heart is speaking directly to God.

I do appreciate your prayers for me. But, given my "druthers" -- I would "druther" you pray from the heart for me. I would not want you to fall asleep in the middle of reciting "canned" prayers if you are praying for me. I need the prayers too badly for you to fall asleep on me.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Attachments

Images (1)
  • Prayer1c
quote:
Originally posted by b50m:
quote:
Originally posted by Gifted Child:
BG
You need to let this go and get a good night's sleep.
I wasn't trying to pi__ you off. I said what I said
and I will said it again if I need to. I don't
believe I need to.


Don't worry gifted, Bill has to have everyone agree with him or you go into the Bill Gray Book of the Dammed. But it's fine, you will plenty of nice people in there with you.

No, B50,

I believe that when a person comes on the Religion Forum and makes an accusation as Child did; then I believe I have a right to ask her to supply proof supporting that statement.

She specifically said: "The way you come across ( just me ) is anger."

I only ask her to support that statement -- or tell us she did not mean what she wrote.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Attachments

Images (1)
  • Friends_Piggy_Bear-1
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:

I do appreciate your prayers for me. But, given my "druthers" -- I would "druther" you pray from the heart for me. I would not want you to fall asleep in the middle of reciting "canned" prayers if you are praying for me. I need the prayers too badly for you to fall asleep on me.



but but but .. but bill...

if veep can't ask mary to pray for her, then how can you ask veep to pray for you?

doesn't that make you a VPLee123 worshipper?

HERETIC!!!! You need to get right with God before it's too late!

flippin idiot.
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by Gifted Child:
BG
You need to let this go and get a good night's sleep.
I wasn't trying to pi__ you off. I said what I said
and I will said it again if I need to. I don't
believe I need to.

Hi Child,

You specifically said: "The way you come across ( just me ) is anger."

That is an accusation. I realize that you are new on the Religion Forum. However, when you come here and make a specific accusation such as that -- you should be able to supply proof of your accusation.

Please show me where I have responded or spoken in ANGER.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill


no one has to.

let me try to break it down from english into words you might understand.

Gifty said
"The way you come across ( just me ) is anger."

what that means is -

'To me it seems that the way you say things are filled with anger, but that's JUST ME'

which is an opinion - which doesn't require an answer to you, nor proof thereof. it was the impression Gifted got when reading one of your posts.

i've gotten the same impression from you several times. anger, hatred, loathing, and a deep sense of guilt and desperation, as tho if you condemn enough people, it'll help you get into heaven despite what you see as a 'worldy past.'

i don't have to explain or defend that position, because it's only an impression i have of you, taken from the way you phrase things.
Just one question on the religious forum.If God and Jesus are one and the same whom did Jesus pray to?Himself?(This is my son with whom I am well pleased)Who said that upon Jesus being babtised?Whom is sitting at the right hand of God?Himself?What does the very first commandment say?Thou shall not have ANY Gods before me.Im a believer in God and do think he sent his son to live a mortal life and be the lamb of God for our future redemption.But if they were one whom did he pray to?
They are 3 persons, One God.
The Trinity is probably one of the most difficult concepts to understand. They are One, but 3 persons. Jesus the Son speaks to the Father. He prayed to the Father.
But yes, they are One. The Father knew the prayer before it was said. Did He need to pray? Did He need to be baptized? I don't think He NEEDED to, but did it so as to leave example for us.
Just my 2cents. Smiler
There has always been the Trinity. God created the earth and
man and woman. He wanted it set up as a family unit. Adam -
Eve - children. Everything goes to plan and the Father said I
will send my son to save you. The Holy Ghost is sent to mary.
The essence of God touches her,not the Father. Now Jesus has
human form and humans can pray to God. Most important is the
example of Jesus praying. Everything Jesus said or did is an
example for us. Why is this hard to understand? I think God
wants your love from faith. Not having you live in fear of him.
I know thats the quick in a nut shell reply.
quote:
I think God
wants your love from faith. Not having you live in fear of him.
I know thats the quick in a nut shell reply.


Gifted Child, I agree with you.
Jesus left an example. It's just that easy.
But I do think a "healthy" dose of fear is warranted, just as a child should be a little afraid of getting in trouble. haha. But fear is minimal- mostly adoration and love...
The One God in 3 persons was always tough to grasp, for me. But, when it becomes clear, it makes total sense. I believe that clarity, too, is a gift from the Holy Spirit, and an answered prayer.
quote:
Because it makes no sense. Because there is no evidence for it. Because this theological truth was obviously made up by people.


awww, BCBG. But it can make sense if you believe it, and receive the Gift of Faith.
You cannot deny spiritual aspects of life based on a lack of evidence. Isn't that an oxymoron?
Faith is beleiving WIthouT seeing.
But thats ok, I respect your opinion- but it doesn't mean that it is not real...to many many people. Educated and well read people to boot! Smiler
And I do love ya, my brother from another mother, but it does come to make sense. sometimes.
quote:
Originally posted by thenagel:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
I do appreciate your prayers for me. But, given my "druthers" -- I would "druther" you pray from the heart for me. I would not want you to fall asleep in the middle of reciting "canned" prayers if you are praying for me. I need the prayers too badly for you to fall asleep on me.

but but but .. but bill... if veep can't ask mary to pray for her, then how can you ask veep to pray for you? doesn't that make you a VPLee123 worshipper? HERETIC!!!! You need to get right with God before it's too late!

Hi Nagel,

Once in a while you will come up with a good comment or question, not often -- but, no one can always miss.

You have, inadvertently, asked a good question without even knowing it: What is the difference between praying to a Roman Catholic Saints, i.e., Mary, Joseph, St. Jude, St. Christopher, St. Patrick, etc. -- and asking a friend such as VP to personally pray for me?

About ten years ago, I had a friend in our church who was attending our Baptist church and also attending a local Roman Catholic church. He like our Baptist church -- but, his cousin was a monsignor at the other church. So, Daniel had one foot in each church.

One day, he and I were talking about prayer and specifically, praying to Roman Catholic Saints. Daniel told me, "Bill, you have the Worldwide Prayer Chain where you send e-mails asking people for intercessory prayer for other people. That is what we do in the Roman Catholic church -- we ask the Saints to intercede and pray for us."

I told him, "Daniel, there are two very big differences. First, the Bible tells us that Jesus Christ is the ONLY mediator between God and man. So, the ONLY one in heaven we ask for intercessory prayer is Jesus Christ.

And, the second reason the Roman Catholic intercessory prayer is not valid -- is that the people to whom you are praying have been dead for hundreds or thousands of years. They cannot pray for anyone -- they are dead! My mother died in 1994 and I know she loves me very much -- but, she cannot pray for me for she is in heaven. She cannot pray for me and I cannot pray for or to her.

When I send out an intercessory prayer request -- the people I am asking to pray are alive. They can lift prayers to God for us -- for they are alive and well."


That is the intercessory prayer the Bible teaches, "Is anyone among you suffering? Then he must pray. Is anyone cheerful? He is to sing praises. Is anyone among you sick? Then he must call for the elders of the church and they are to pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; and the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him.

Therefore, confess your sins to one another (accountability), and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man
(woman or child) can accomplish much" (James 5:13-16).

1 Thessalonians 5:17 tells us to, "Pray without ceasing."

And, Revelation 5:8 tells us, "When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints."

This Scripture verse in Revelation speaks of the "prayers of the saints" -- but, these "saints" are all the Christian believers -- not special people elevated by the Roman Catholic church.

So, in the Bible we are told often to pray for one another, to pray without ceasing, and that those prayers we are lifting are an incense of worship to God, as we have confirmed in Psalm 141:2. We are never told, in the Bible, to pray to Mary or any of the other Roman Catholic Saints.

Wow, Nagel, thank you for partnering with me to explain intercessory prayer to our Forum Friends. You make a great Gospel partner!

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Attachments

Images (1)
  • 0_-_CROSS-BIBLE_SAID-IT-1c
quote:
but but but .. but bill... if veep can't ask mary to pray for her, then how can you ask veep to pray for you? doesn't that make you a VPLee123 worshipper? HERETIC!!!! You need to get right with God before it's too late!


Nagel,
This is the part where BG will say you can't pray to Mary, or the Saints because they are dead.
But what he is not considering here, is that they are very much alive: Mary, assumed into Heaven to intercede for us. We don't ask her to answer prayers, but rather to whisper in her Son's ear.
And the Saints? They are Holy Men and Women, very much alive in spirit in Heaven, on whose intercession we constantly rely on for help.
He will probably also say that all Christians are Saints. Not possible. Saints are HOLY people who have performed miracles and found exceptional favor with God. His "Army" so to speak.
Now this is just my teaching, my beliefs,
But an intercession to the Blessed Mother is a special appeal. When He says his mom can't hear prayer because she is dead, he is denying unequivocably that she is alive spiritually in the Presence of Christ.
That, I don't understand.....
quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
quote:
Because it makes no sense. Because there is no evidence for it. Because this theological truth was obviously made up by people.


awww, BCBG. But it can make sense if you believe it, and receive the Gift of Faith.
You cannot deny spiritual aspects of life based on a lack of evidence. Isn't that an oxymoron?
Faith is beleiving WIthouT seeing.
But thats ok, I respect your opinion- but it doesn't mean that it is not real...to many many people. Educated and well read people to boot! Smiler
And I do love ya, my brother from another mother, but it does come to make sense. sometimes.


Veep,

You have it backwards. First evidence, then belief.

Believe first? Why? I just can't do that.

Remember the peanuts comic strip? Charles Schultz' character Linus believed in The Great Pumpkin, on nothing more than his imagination. Every Halloween he was disappointed again that the Great Pumpkin never visited him. This was Schultz' poke at blind faith, and a reflection of his own skepticism about religion.

Linus could be forgiven. He's a child. I'm not.
quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
quote:
but but but .. but bill... if veep can't ask mary to pray for her, then how can you ask veep to pray for you? doesn't that make you a VPLee123 worshipper? HERETIC!!!! You need to get right with God before it's too late!


Nagel,
This is the part where BG will say you can't pray to Mary, or the Saints because they are dead.



Oh man... i just walked right into it.
even when i should have known better. it was thebill saying it, therefore it was not to be trusted, and i dropped the ball and allowed him the opening.

sorry guys. must have been tired....
quote:
Veep,

You have it backwards. First evidence, then belief.

Believe first? Why? I just can't do that.

Remember the peanuts comic strip? Charles Schultz' character Linus believed in The Great Pumpkin, on nothing more than his imagination. Every Halloween he was disappointed again that the Great Pumpkin never visited him. This was Schultz' poke at blind faith, and a reflection of his own skepticism about religion.

Linus could be forgiven. He's a child. I'm not.


Yeah, But again, I will assert that the definition of faith, is believing without seeing. So it is counterintuitive to expect evidence of God's existence. (tangible, scientific evidence, that it).
I'm not trying to convince you otherwise, but faith requires a spiritual depth. If you ask many believers WHY they believe, they can probably tell you of some profound experience in which they feel they were touched by the Holy Spirit. I know I can.
And that is evidence- personal revelation does happen.

I really can't respond to this, because if you demand evidence, than you are not going to accept personal revelation and spiritual experiences as provable, tangible evidence.

Unfortunately, the only hard evidence has been in the form of peanuts and large gourds shaped like Jesus. hmm...maybe the great punkin did appear after all!?!?!? Big Grin
quote:
Originally posted by thenagel:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Once in a while you will come up with a good comment or question, not often -- but, no one can always miss.

Bill


sure they can. you do.

you sir are a horrible human being and i hope daily we get the news that you've been run over by a taxi driven by a gay mormon.


That's very s****y of you nagel.

Comments like that show you occupy a very low rung on the ladder of success mentally.

You owe Bro Bill an apology.

I have no use for you. You wear your hat backward.
quote:
Originally posted by Jankinonya:
LMAO

I need to eat something because I believe my blood sugar must be low and I am confused.

I sat here for a full minute trying to figure out what thenagel said that was so s-l-u-t-t-y.


well.. it wouldn't surprise me. in high school i was voted 'most likely to be a dirty old man'
so i've been trying hard to live up to that.
quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
quote:
Veep,

You have it backwards. First evidence, then belief.

Believe first? Why? I just can't do that.

Remember the peanuts comic strip? Charles Schultz' character Linus believed in The Great Pumpkin, on nothing more than his imagination. Every Halloween he was disappointed again that the Great Pumpkin never visited him. This was Schultz' poke at blind faith, and a reflection of his own skepticism about religion.

Linus could be forgiven. He's a child. I'm not.


Yeah, But again, I will assert that the definition of faith, is believing without seeing. So it is counterintuitive to expect evidence of God's existence. (tangible, scientific evidence, that it).
I'm not trying to convince you otherwise, but faith requires a spiritual depth. If you ask many believers WHY they believe, they can probably tell you of some profound experience in which they feel they were touched by the Holy Spirit. I know I can.
And that is evidence- personal revelation does happen.

I really can't respond to this, because if you demand evidence, than you are not going to accept personal revelation and spiritual experiences as provable, tangible evidence.

Unfortunately, the only hard evidence has been in the form of peanuts and large gourds shaped like Jesus. hmm...maybe the great punkin did appear after all!?!?!? Big Grin


I once saw a zucchini that looked like Don Rickles. Is Rickles god? Razzer

I cannot believe first and look for evidence of my belief afterward. If I were to allow myself to do that, I could believe in anything, and for no good reason.

If you find that satisfactory, then enjoy it. Just understand we're not all of that mind.
quote:
Just understand we're not all of that mind.


I absolutely, most certainly understand that.
I would never push my beliefs on anyone- except maybe my children Smiler
For the record, I have nothing but respect for everyone's reasoning and opinions. (when conveyed with a sincere heart).
Don Rickles, though? Now, you're just talking smack.
Hi VP,

You tell Nagel, "This is the part where BG will say you can't pray to Mary, or the Saints because they are dead. But what he is not considering here, is that they are very much alive: Mary, assumed into Heaven to intercede for us. We don't ask her to answer prayers, but rather to whisper in her Son's ear."

Please show us in the Bible where it tells us that Mary was "assumed" into heaven. The Bible tells us very clearly that Enoch and Elijah were taken up, raptured, or as you say "assumed" into heaven. The Bible (Acts 1) tells us that Jesus was taken up, in your words "assumed" into heaven, and the Bible tells us that the two witnesses in Revelation 11 will be raised from the dead and taken up, raptured, "assumed" into heaven. It even tells us that Moses died a normal death and was secretly buried by God, apparently so that men would not worship the grave site of Moses.

But, nowhere does it mention Mary being "assumed" -- nor does it even mention Mary's death. After His resurrection and ascension, and the Day of Pentecost -- there is no more mention of Mary. If Mary were the Mother of God, the Queen of Heaven -- don't you suppose at least one verse in the Bible would have mentioned her and such an important event as her death, rapture, or "assumption"?

No, VP, Mary was very blessed to have been chosen to birth the human nature of Jesus. Mary was very blessed to have been chosen to be the mother who would raise and nurture the infant, youth, and young man, Jesus. But, other than that -- Mary was just an ordinary blessed woman. Like billions of mortals, she lived, she died, her body went into a grave, and her spirit went into the presence of God.

At the Rapture, she and billions of other believers will receive our immortal bodies and, after the Millennial Kingdom, we will be taken into eternity in the presence of God. That is the extent of Mary. No perpetual virgin, no immaculate personal birth, no special honors except the blessing of being the mother of the human Jesus, no special titles in heaven, etc. If ANY of these things were true -- wouldn't you expect to read about them somewhere in the Bible?

Then, you say, "And the Saints? They are Holy Men and Women, very much alive in spirit in Heaven, on whose intercession we constantly rely on for help."

Your Bible references, please. In 1 Timothy 2:5, we are told, "For there is one God, and ONE mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." Only one Mediator between God and man -- Christ Jesus! No Saints, no saints, no Holy Men, no Holy Women -- ONLY Jesus Christ!

Next, you say, "He will probably also say that all Christians are Saints. Not possible. Saints are HOLY people who have performed miracles and found exceptional favor with God. His "Army" so to speak."

No, VP, I do not say that all Christians are saints -- the Bible does. Are you saying the Bible is lying about this? If so, please give us one Scripture verse which mentions special Sainthood for any particular person. Who is HOLY? There are no HOLY people; only God is holy. We, starting from Adam and including you, me, all mortal people -- are filthy in our own righteousness (Isaiah
64:6) -- so how can any mortal person be HOLY? The only holiness we have is the righteousness of Jesus Christ which covers all who are Christian believers, i.e, we saints.

VP, you say, "Now this is just my teaching, my beliefs."

What you believe about such things; what I believe about such things -- MEANS NOTHING. The ONLY authority on such matters is the Bible. If the Bible says it -- believe it! If another book says it -- examine it carefully to see if it contradicts the Bible. If it does -- it is wrong. There is ONE authority on salvation and the Christian walk -- the Bible -- Sola Scriptura.

Finally, you say, "But an intercession to the Blessed Mother is a special appeal. When He says his mom can't hear prayer because she is dead, he is denying unequivocally that she is alive spiritually in the Presence of Christ. That, I don't understand."

True, my mother, like Mary and billions of other believers who have died and gone into heaven in their spirit bodies are alive, more alive than ever before. However, they have one desire in heaven -- to honor and worship God, nothing else.

In Revelation 7:15-17 we are told of the Tribulation saints, and we other saints by implication, for the highest honor of being the Bride of Christ is given to all Church Age saints, "For this reason, they are before the throne of God; and they serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them. They will hunger no longer, nor thirst anymore; nor will the sun beat down on them, nor any heat; for the Lamb in the center of the throne will be their shepherd, and will guide them to springs of the water of life; and God will wipe every tear from their eyes."

There will be no unhappiness in heaven. Yet, I know that, regardless of how good a Christian believer I am or may become -- I still am a sinner, I still sin, I still am very far from being humanly or spiritually perfect. And, I know that if my mother could look to earth and see me -- my sins would not make her happy. There would be tears in her eyes, wanting me to be a better Christian. Yet, she has no tears. Why? Because God has wiped the tears from her eyes. She is happy for she is in the presence of her God and she is worshiping her God -- not spending time watching or praying for her sinful son.

Mary's son, Jesus, is not sinful -- but, her other children most certainly were sinners, not perfect. We are told in the Bible that Jesus' brothers did not even believe in Him during His earthly ministry. So, Mary, like my mother, would have been very distressed to have looked back on earth and seen what her children and grandchildren were doing. So, like my mother, God wiped the tears from the eyes of Mary -- and she spent all her time honoring and worshiping God, nothing else. No, she is not whispering in the ears of Jesus for us -- she is not mediating for us -- she, like all the billions of other saints, is honoring and worshiping God.

VP, if it is in the Bible -- we can bank on it; it is true. If it is not in the Bible, we can speculate on it -- but, we CANNOT build theologies or doctrines upon it.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Attachments

Images (1)
  • 0_-_CROSS-BIBLE_SOLA_Outline

Add Reply

Post

Untitled Document
×
×
×
×
Link copied to your clipboard.
×