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"their doctrine of the Eucharist as they interpret it".

Hmm. Interesting that you say that. You claim to take the Bible as the LITERAL Word of God.
Yet the source and summit of Christ's New Covenant with us? You don't take literally.
The Eucharist is in the Bible, clear as a bell. Even to the point where many left, and Jesus insisted "THIS IS MY BODY".
We have discussed this ad nauseum. You should take the "literal" part of the "literal inerant Word OUT of your claim- it's a lie. " Your interpretation is in conflict with the Literal Word of God.

The Rosary is in the Bible. I have cited each single line with a Biblical reference.

Mary is not worshipped.

Tradition does not "trump" the Bible. They are not in conflict.

"The priest do not allow the Roman Catholics to even consider what they think the Bible means "

Another lie. Yes, we do have the Official Teachings, which are the Catechism. And THANK GOD for that- I'd hate to be swirrling in the confusion that you are- trying to decipher what God said, and fighting over every line. Thank GOD that His early church had the foresight to compile the teachings concisely, so that we may not fall to your false teachings.
I have shown and defended all these things, Mr. Gray. You, Sir are a liar. You know it.
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
The lay people are obviously not smart enough to understand the Bible -- unless the priest tell them what it means.
Bill


quote:
Originally posted by semiannualchick:
Bill, is this not what you are forever doing on this forum? Telling us what you think the Bible means???


quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Hi Chick,
There is a huge difference which you have not noticed. Yes, I do tell you what I think the Bible is teaching us.

However, the priest of the Roman Catholic church tell them what they MUST believe the Bible teaches.

I say what I believe the Bible means. Would you want a priest telling you what you MUST believe?
Bill


No, Bill, there is no difference. If no one agrees with you, then you began to belittle, you're rude, & you're a bully.

You do not have it in you to dicuss anything in a kind manner, & then to kindly agree to disagree aftr giving your opinion. You have no compassion, kindness, or love for people. At least not the people on this forum.

No, I would not want a priest telling me what I must believe but I'm not going to put anyone down that does. I'm not their judge, that will be left to Jesus to judge us all, even you.
quote:
There is a huge difference which you have not noticed. Yes, I do tell you what I think the Bible is teaching us.

No, Bill, you state with fact what the Bible means even laughing at other people's interpretation.

If you were giving an opinion, you would not start with: You are so misguided, that's laughable, you couldn't be more wrong, that's not inspired, let's compare this to that, etc.........
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by buffalo:
Bill G. Let’s be at least realistic. Not to make a rellie big list, but select one trespass by the Catholic Church inherently wrong when judged by the Bible, with the axiom it is your interpretation, with the many liberties in mind taken by any other denomination of Christian religion as they go about paying homage, being fruitful, charitable, being comfortable, and the petition to any entity imagined, dead or real for assistance in frailties, involving sadness, death, weaknesses, on behalf of themselves or others that we can discuss singularly for the purpose of staying focused that would allow without prejudice by you or anyone their being in peril while the rest of religion somehow remain un-indicted and allowed to pillage expediency at will.

Hi Buffalo,

Did you ever bother to take a breath while you were typing? That is one sentence -- in paragraph form! Since I cannot understand what you are asking in all that rambling -- I will take the first line and respond to that. If there is any other question important to you in all the rest of your long rambling paragraph -- please break it out and let me know.

You ask me to "select one trespass by the Catholic Church inherently wrong when judged by the Bible."

Well, their doctrine of Mariology, i.e, all the Mary teachings and worship, is not in the Bible -- their doctrine of Purgatory is not in the Bible -- their doctrine of Popes and Pope infallibility is not in the Bible -- their doctrine of Special Saints is not in the Bible -- their doctrine of the Eucharist, as they interpret it, is not in the Bible -- their reliance upon man-made Traditions and having those Traditions trump the teaching of the Bible is not Biblical -- their Prayers for the Dead is not in the Bible -- their Confessing to another man is not in the Bible -- their Indulgences is not in the Bible -- their Rosary is not in the Bible.

I will stop there so that my list does not grow too long, as you requested.

bill,

Why can't you admit Bullalo asked something you don't want to answer. It's a good
question,I wish I had said it.

No one worships Mary. Saint's are saint's, But Mary the Mother God is above them all.
The doctrine of Purgatory IS IN THE BIBLE just not the word purgatory. Trinity
isn't either as well some other words. The Eucharist is in the Bible, last supper,
and so a lot of what Jesus said in the Bible, he was just kidding. well ok then.
Those man made traditions helped bring you the Bible you have today. Your Welcome.
Prayers for the dead is in the old and new testaments. Confessing to a catholic
priest, not another man, Jesus also spoke of this in the Bible. Indulgences still
come by way of Heaven, and the Rosary is prayers from the Bible.
Bro. Bill

Worship does not always imply respect as to The Godhead.

In a sense we are taught to worship our parents.

After all Mary was the mother of Jesus and any worship of her would simply be paying due respect not to worship her as a Godhead.

It’s pretty simple this conclusion. Otherwise it’s semantics on which you hang your belief.
All the other things you listed are inherently
taught in the Bible.

I'll refer to one. Popes. Christian denominations without exception appoint leaders charged to interpret for and watch over the flock. No difference.
actually buffalo, there is a huge difference. Popes are viewed as a spiritual connection to God for the people. As in... ordinary folk can't talk to God about anything important.
In most other "religions".. like I'm a Southern Baptist Christian... a pastor is in place as a leader. A guide for his congregation. Also as a teacher. But not as the congregations' only connection with God.
If I may add:


I knoticed Bro Bill listed indulgences. As pfarr as I know this has been a practice by religions dating back to burnt offerings. This practice has been massaged into being less obvious to other than the trained eye.
Several of my short comings have joined with those of many who limbo’s under the bar of forgiveness as cash falls from our pockets.
quote:
As in... ordinary folk can't talk to God about anything important.


Hi Peter,
That's actually not true about the Pope. He is a spiritual leader, the Head of the Universal Church.
Catholics do not consider the Pope to be their only connection to God- not in the slightest.
I'm not sure where you got that idea, but it's incorrect...
Nobody worships the Pope. All praise, honor and glory to God.
quote:
Originally posted by Peter Rielly:
actually buffalo, there is a huge difference. Popes are viewed as a spiritual connection to God for the people. As in... ordinary folk can't talk to God about anything important.
In most other "religions".. like I'm a Southern Baptist Christian... a pastor is in place as a leader. A guide for his congregation. Also as a teacher. But not as the congregations' only connection with God.


Peter,

Not likely but at some point it could be argued that the Pope had the only spiritual connection to God as happened in the case of Noah, I hope that never happens but if the atheist are allowed, in concert, with their Christian sympathizers it is ,shall I say, inevitable.
quote:
Originally posted by Peter Rielly:
actually buffalo, there is a huge difference. Popes are viewed as a spiritual connection to God for the people. As in... ordinary folk can't talk to God about anything important.
In most other "religions".. like I'm a Southern Baptist Christian... a pastor is in place as a leader. A guide for his congregation. Also as a teacher. But not as the congregations' only connection with God.


PR-

The pope is the head of the church, but I talk to God whenever and for
whatever I want...like I'm a southern catholic and that has never been
the case. I can even talk to Jesus. Who wanted a head of his church in
the first place. Peter,the first pope, he wrote first and second peter.
"ordinary folk can't talk to God about anything important.
--WTH--
You are right, I was being far to flipant with my smart aleck post. lol
My point was in catholicism, there must be a "middle man" to gain sanctification. A priest must "ok" the repentant heart for acceptance to God. Person does something bad, has to tell the priest, who will then tell God so that the person can be forgiven. Confession to another man is pointless drivel, only confession by the sinner to God in the name of Jesus means anything.
quote:
Originally posted by Peter Rielly:
You are right, I was being far to flipant with my smart aleck post. lol
My point was in catholicism, there must be a "middle man" to gain sanctification. A priest must "ok" the repentant heart for acceptance to God. Person does something bad, has to tell the priest, who will then tell God so that the person can be forgiven. Confession to another man is pointless drivel, only confession by the sinner to God in the name of Jesus means anything.

P.R.
I know what your saying, its hard to accept, We do it because Jesus told the
apostles to do this. If it wasn't in the Bible I wouldn't say anything
about it.
Confession of sins takes various forms: (1) To God alone, (2) To one's neighbor when he has been wronged (Luke 17.4, James 5.23), (3) To one's friend or adviser as the confession of David to Nathan (2 Samuel 12.13), and, (4) To the entire congregation where sin has created a public scandal to the church.


Would you not call a priest an adviser?
No, don't need a priest to confess to. There is an all knowing God that hears my prayers. And if I have sinned against someone knowingly, I need to ask them for forgiveness also.
Although this rarely happens. Exp. A wife/husband cheated in their marriage that led to divorce. Very rarely do we hear of the guilty one asking forgiveness from the one wronged.

Instead,the guilty throws stones about why they were forced to commit the act.
The veil ripping upon the death of Christ signified that Jesus Christ was the ultimate High Priest, and that man only needed to go through Him to get to the Father.... middle man not necessary. God was no longer dwelling in the temple for He had grown weary of the "traditions" of men, and now the ultimate sacrafice, which was Jesus Christ, was all that was needed to find redemtion.
When I asked the preist at the Catholic church I attended about confession, he told me that it is for psycological reasons as much as for repentence. He explained that, as we all know, confession is good for the soul, and that often by talking about our sins, we begin to understand why we committed them in the first place. When we gain a better understanding of ourselves, we can become better people.
quote:
Originally posted by semiannualchick:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
The lay people are obviously not smart enough to understand the Bible -- unless the priest tell them what it means.
Bill


quote:
Originally posted by semiannualchick:
Bill, is this not what you are forever doing on this forum? Telling us what you think the Bible means???


quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Hi Chick,
There is a huge difference which you have not noticed. Yes, I do tell you what I think the Bible is teaching us.

However, the priest of the Roman Catholic church tell them what they MUST believe the Bible teaches.

I say what I believe the Bible means. Would you want a priest telling you what you MUST believe?
Bill


No, Bill, there is no difference. If no one agrees with you, then you began to belittle, you're rude, & you're a bully.

You do not have it in you to dicuss anything in a kind manner, & then to kindly agree to disagree aftr giving your opinion. You have no compassion, kindness, or love for people. At least not the people on this forum.

No, I would not want a priest telling me what I must believe but I'm not going to put anyone down that does. I'm not their judge, that will be left to Jesus to judge us all, even you.


simi--
A priest will not tell you what you must believe, ever.

bill lying gray--

You can't stop lying can you. You don't believe you can learn anything here. So
you can't because you know everthing, nothing else to learn. Now you just flip
flop around lying about what you hate, who you hate,how much you hate.
Capacity to love, very important to God in the way he sees you. I guess you
hate that also, Because you have no capacity for it. You must not care what
God cares about are thinks.
Gifted, He (BeeGee) believes he can say whatever he wants, as he believes his salvation is locked, and his sins are not seen by God. He once wrote something to the effect of "When God sees Bill Gray all He sees is righteousness".
He is delusional and vindictive.
I do believe it stems from the Catholic stance on divorce/remarriage...but cannot be more than 99percent sure on that.
He is a liar and a fraud. He found a "religion" in which he may live in adultery and be a jack##$ to everyone, and yet claim "salvation through faith alone", and has a superiority complex that is downright pathologic.
Don't let him get to you.
"My point was in catholicism, there must be a "middle man" to gain sanctification. A priest must "ok" the repentant heart for acceptance to God."

Peter- I agree with what the others say- a priest is a resource- a pastor- often a friend. A guide in this sticky and confusing life.
Confession is a great sacrament: verbalizing and taking responsibility for your sinfulness is a great spiritual exercise.
To make a good confession, one has to begin with an examination of conscience- most priests will advise that you go through the list of the 10 commandments as your guide. That allows some "order" to keep you on track.
To verbalize your sins, to verbalize the need for forgiveness, to hear the words of absolution- truly beautiful for the soul. The priest does not NEED to do these things, but it is for the spiritual growth and atonement of the repenitent. Thus, recommended by the Church that one Reconciles wiht God before certain things, like Eucharist, Lent, Christmas, etc.
It's really comforting, actually. Mostly prayers- God forgive these sins, and help me to avoid the occasion of sin....help me be made worthy to receive the promises of Christ.
Hi VP,

When Peter said, "My point was in Catholicism, there must be a "middle man" to gain sanctification. A priest must "ok" the repentant heart for acceptance to God."

You replied, "To verbalize your sins, to verbalize the need for forgiveness, to hear the words of absolution - truly beautiful for the soul. The priest does not NEED to do these things, but it is for the spiritual growth and atonement of the repentant. Thus, recommended by the Church that one Reconciles with God before certain things, like Eucharist, Lent, Christmas, etc."

Actually, isn't the priest obligated to hear your confession and to give you degrees of penance dependent upon your sins?

Isn't it a mortal sin to not go to confession? If a Roman Catholic dies without having gone to confession -- is he/she not dying with a mortal sin on their soul and therefore sent to hell?

Where do you find Confession to a priest in the Bible? We are told in 1 Timothy 2:5, "For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus."

If Jesus Christ is your ONLY MEDIATOR -- why do you need a "middle man" to repent and be sanctified? Why do you need a "middle man" to help you gain "acceptance to God"?

You say, "Nobody worships the Pope. All praise, honor and glory to God."

Yet, if you entered a room and the Pope was there -- would you bow to him? Would you kiss his hand? Would you kiss his ring? Are these not forms of worship?

Acts 10:25-26, "When Peter entered, Cornelius met him, and fell at his feet and worshiped him. But Peter raised him up, saying, 'Stand up; I too am just a man.'"

Revelation 19:1, "Then I (John) fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, 'Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus; worship God. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.'"

So, if we are told not to bow and worship other men -- why do people bow to the Pope and kiss his hand and ring?

VP, I realize that you will not answer these questions. For when I have referenced the Bible before, you have NEVER answered. All you do is give a nasty response or tell one you your followers how nasty I am, i.e, "Bill Gray has the audacity to question the Roman Catholic doctrines and ask VP questions about them." Can you imagine -- expecting our Roman Catholic guru on the Religion Forum to actually answer questions about the Roman Catholic religion?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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I am certainly no guru- I am a humble Christian, doing the best I can in this life.
I have answered all of your questions, and refuted/explained the Catholic doctrine.
I have quoted Scripture, commented on your Scriptural arguements, yet you continue to spew lies.
I have answered all your questions. SHould you wish to look up archives of these discussions, you will find them.
quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
I am certainly no guru- I am a humble Christian, doing the best I can in this life.
I have answered all of your questions, and refuted/explained the Catholic doctrine.
I have quoted Scripture, commented on your Scriptural arguements, yet you continue to spew lies. I have answered all your questions. SHould you wish to look up archives of these discussions, you will find them.

Hi VP,

You and B50 have repeatedly said that -- yet, when I ask either of you to show me the LIE that I have told about the Roman Catholic church -- silence -- or a nasty remark such as above.

Pretend I'm from Missouri -- SHOW ME!

If I have lied -- SHOW ME!

But, you will ignore this request also.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Bill, if you would look at your own posts, you would find that you have always disputed any thing posted from scripture you did not like. VP posted the scripture for the rosary, Gifted posted the scripture for purgatory, ONO posted the scripture and the inconsistencies for Lucifer being Satan, beternu posted the scriptures for the necessity of baptism, several posted the scriptures concerning Mary, several posted the scriptures for the Ten Commandments that you say the Catholics butcher, several posted statements from church sites stating the Bible is only inerrant in the original manuscripts, several posted scripture concerning the beginning of the apostolic succession, and several posted the facts that your idol, Chuck Smith, is a lying hypocrite.

Now show me where I posted anything from Oprah or Shirley McClain as you claimed.

So Bill, with all due respect, shut up or put up.
quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
B50, does Bill have short term memory loss? I have shown him lie after lie. Why do I have to keep repeating myself?

Hi VP,

This is a wonderful example of your response when I ask you to back up your defamatory accusations. Since you cannot -- you make more nasty comments.

You accuse: Bill lied about the Roman Catholic church!

I respond: SHOW ME!

And, you cannot. End of story.

My Friend, by doing this you are showing yourself to be untruthful -- for you make an accusation which you CANNOT support with facts.

But, not a problem. If you can't -- you can't! So, no big deal. We will just move on to more productive discussions.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
you are showing yourself to be untruthful -- for you make an accusation which you CANNOT support with facts.


No. Absolutely not. But I am growing tired of your same responses. I have pointed out several things in which you lied about the Church.
I don't feel the need to re-do, and give myself carpal tunnel syndrome on your account.
Please feel free to review our dialogues, and I have listed (on more than one occasion) where you have told un-truths about the Catholic Church.

Here's a list to start you off:
1. Catholics pray to statues
2. Catholics worship Mary
3. The Rosary cannot be found in the bible
4. The Eucharist is not Biblical
5. If one dies before confessing sins he will go to Hell.
6. The Gospel is not proclaimed in the Catholic CHurch
7. Catholics worship their rosaries, Mary, statues- everything but Jesus Christ.

....that ought to get you started...
Last edited by Former Member
quote:
Originally posted by semiannualchick:
Bill, if Catholics pray to Mary in the Rosary, how is that any different than when a pastor intercedes in prayer for you or me?


semi--

The Hail Mary- A prayer based on the greetings of Gabriel
and St. Elizabeth to the blessed Mother.

Not long ago evangelical christians attemped to find protestant doctrine
of sola scriptura within the writings of the church fathers. These writers
do not understand the coordinate role of tradition and it's relationship
with scripture in the ancient church.
Orthodox, Catholic, Coptic and many protestant patristic scholars
agree the rule of faith in the early church consisted of scripture
tradition and church. Not a single church father interpreted sacred scripture
in isolation from the traditional faith of the church.
The fathers applied tradition as a rule to interpret
scripture. The only ancient teachers who interpreted scripture apart from
tradition were the early heretics.
For a recent account Bill. The Lucifer problem. You post an article that states 'in reality' when going through Isaiah. That is the writer's opinion Bill. He has no more right interpertation than anyone else. In fact, Lucifer=Satan is ridiculous since Lucifer means 'light bringer'. The only light bringer we should know is Jesus. I and others posted several articles that show why the misinterpetation occurred. You only accept your way. You say all othet ideas are wrong. Well, even the Bible has logic Bill. Logic would tell us that for Jesus to refer to Satan as the 'light bringer' could not happen. So lucifer is not Satan.



This designation, referring to Lucifer, is the rendering of the "morning star" or "star of the morning" or "bright star" which is presented in Isaiah. "How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low! You said in your heart, ‘I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit on the mount of assembly on the heights of Zaphon; I will ascend to the tops of the clouds, I will make myself like the Most High’" (Isaiah 14:12-14, NIV).

However, it is to the power behind the evil Babylonian king that this is actually addressed.
Lucifer is just another name for Satan,
In reality, it goes beyond the king to the one who is behind the evil king of Tyre.
quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
You accuse: Bill lied about the Roman Catholic church! I respond: SHOW ME! And, you cannot. End of story.

My Friend, by doing this you are showing yourself to be untruthful -- for you make an accusation which you CANNOT support with facts.

Here's a list to start you off:

1. Catholics pray to statues
2. Catholics worship Mary
3. The Rosary cannot be found in the bible
4. The Eucharist is not Biblical
5. If one dies before confessing sins he will go to Hell.
6. The Gospel is not proclaimed in the Catholic CHurch
7. Catholics worship their rosaries, Mary, statues- everything but Jesus Christ.

....that ought to get you started...

Hi VP,

Still no supporting FACTS. You made a list of things I have challenged -- telling you they are not Biblical -- and all you have done is give me a list.

Show me where these things are in the Bible. Show me in the Bible where Mary is Co-Redeemer. Show me in the Bible where Mary is Mother of God or Queen of Heaven. Show me where Mary was born sinless. Show me where Mary went into heaven without dying.

Show me the Rosary in the Bible.

Now, to some of the others. Yes, many, many times I have been in Roman Catholic churches and have seen people kneeling before statues, praying. Who were they praying to if not the statue where they were kneeling? If they were praying to God -- why not just sit in the pew and pray?

Are you telling me that it is not a Mortal Sin for a Roman Catholic to die without having confessed and being absolved by a priest?

If that is true, then why do the priests perform last rites over the dying? As a matter of fact; why do they?

No, VP, you have not responded to me with any facts, only a list.

But, if you cannot, not a problem -- many Roman Catholics only play "follow the leader" and have no real idea why they are doing many of the rituals or what they mean.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bill Gray:
You accuse: Bill lied about the Roman Catholic church! I respond: SHOW ME! And, you cannot. End of story.

My Friend, by doing this you are showing yourself to be untruthful -- for you make an accusation which you CANNOT support with facts.

Here's a list to start you off:

1. Catholics pray to statues
2. Catholics worship Mary
3. The Rosary cannot be found in the bible
4. The Eucharist is not Biblical
5. If one dies before confessing sins he will go to Hell.
6. The Gospel is not proclaimed in the Catholic CHurch
7. Catholics worship their rosaries, Mary, statues- everything but Jesus Christ.

....that ought to get you started...


bg--

You have said the things on the list.
You've said more untrue things that are not
on the list. You know it's lies, but it's all you got.
I've got one word for you. Letitgoooooooo.
quote:
Originally posted by Gifted Child:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bill Gray:
You accuse: Bill lied about the Roman Catholic church! I respond: SHOW ME! And, you cannot. End of story.

My Friend, by doing this you are showing yourself to be untruthful -- for you make an accusation which you CANNOT support with facts.

Here's a list to start you off:

1. Catholics pray to statues
2. Catholics worship Mary
3. The Rosary cannot be found in the bible
4. The Eucharist is not Biblical
5. If one dies before confessing sins he will go to Hell.
6. The Gospel is not proclaimed in the Catholic CHurch
7. Catholics worship their rosaries, Mary, statues- everything but Jesus Christ.

....that ought to get you started...

bg-- You have said the things on the list. You've said more untrue things that are not on the list. You know it's lies, but it's all you got. I've got one word for you. Letitgoooooooo.

Hi Child,

Yes, I have said these things. However, all you and VP can do is make a list and declare them to be true. Neither of you have shown any Biblical proof that any of these things are true.

Now, when I make a claim and back it with Scripture; you call it a lie. Yet, you show NO FACTS, NO PROOF -- Biblically -- that any of it is a lie. Therefore, you are making false accusations against me, saying that I have lied -- when, all you can produce to back that up -- is a list of what I have said.

SHOW ME, Biblically, that these things are not true. You and VP declaring something -- DOES NOT make it true. If you want to share truths with us -- show it to us in the Bible. If it is not in the Bible; it is a false teaching, a false doctrine.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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