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Is The Old Testament Still Valid In The New Testament Churches?

Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
Hi to my Forum Friends,

In another Religion Forum discussion I began, "Can We Truly Understand End Times Prophecies?" -- my Friend, Punkin, has posed comments and questions on several really important issues: (1) the validity of the Old Testament in the New Testament church, and (2) and what defines a "Holiness" church? For more clarity, I have chosen to post my response to these as two separate new discussions.

Punkin tells me, "Thank you for your time, Mr. Bill. I appreciate the thoughtful response and the time it must have taken for you to write it. My studies have been with the King James, and the New Revised Standard Bibles. I also sometimes use a Thompson study Bible for reference. I agree that Paraphrase Bibles are not for serious study."

Those are good selections. However, depending upon where a person is in his/her study of the Bible, the KJV might be hard to understand at times. When I first began going to Bible studies in 1987, and began to read through the Bible -- I found myself bogged down in Romans. When I mentioned this to our pastor, he asked to see my Bible. It was a KJV, so he gave me a new NASB Harper's Study Bible -- the same Bible I have used since 1987. I have many Bibles, many translations, in my personal library. However, I will typically stay with the NASB, NKJV, KJV, or, in some cases the NIV.

A great Bible web site is Blue Letter Bible: http://www.blueletterbible.org

This web site allows one to view verses, and chapters, in 16 translations -- but, only 12 are in English. The other 4 are Spanish, Latin, and two variations of Greek. You can choose a verse and view it in all 16 translations at the same time.

The web site also has Strong's Concordance, commentaries, and other good info on all verses. It is a great tool for studying the Bible. Also, I use it a lot when I am quoting Scripture in my writings, to prevent typo errors from slipping into the verses. This way, I can copy/paste the verse or passage without worrying about errors.

It also has "Thompson's Chain Reference Special Bible Readings": http://www.blueletterbible.org...hompson/specread.cfm

Next, you tell me, "I find it interesting, and a bit disappointing, that you seem to display such a attitude of superiority. I don't mean to offend you with my questions, I'm just an average person with beliefs that are a little bit different than yours. You might remember that those heathens out there already think we're of a mind that we are going to Heaven and they aren't. That already makes them not like us. You sound real certain about your reading of the Holy Bible. But, if it was so clear, why are there so many different religious denominations?"

First, to address the issue of non-believers not liking us for sharing the truth of the Gospel; while we most certainly do want to win them to the Lord, and we should be sharing His Word with love and gentleness (1 Peter 3:15), we are not in a popularity contest. If we share in love, and people get mad at us for sharing Jesus Christ with them -- as Jesus told His disciples in Matthew 10:14, "Shake the dust of their home from your feet and move on" (paraphrased).

To put that into the context of our Religion Forum, where we seem to have quite a population of atheists and non-believers -- when they get upset at us for sharing the Gospel, look past them to the many other readers -- and direct your sharing to them, to those believers and seekers who may be eager to hear the Gospel shared in honesty and truth.

Next, if I appear to project an attitude of superiority; for that I do sincerely apologize. I most certainly am not superior to other Christian believers -- and, there are many non-believers who are just as moral, many who are more intelligent, and many who are smarter than me. However, to say that I know that I am going to heaven when I die; to say that I know the Bible is the inspired, inerrant Word of God; to say that Jesus Christ is my personal Lord and Savior -- is not being arrogant nor superior. It is merely being factual based upon my knowledge of God's Word, the promises given to us by Jesus Christ in the Bible, and my faith in Jesus Christ.

Regarding heaven and hell -- and which is our eternal destination: yes, I will affirm, without hesitation, that all humans are eternal beings; we are all immortal beings, we will all live eternally. That was made a certainty by the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. The distinction being where one will live that eternity. There are only two possible eternal choices: heaven and hell. All Christian believers will spend eternity with Jesus Christ, in the presence of God the Father, in heaven. And, all non-believers will spend eternity in the only other possible eternal destination -- hell, in the presence of Satan. Saying this is not being arrogant nor superior; it is only correctly quoting the Bible.

One might ask, "Why would a loving God condemn anyone to hell?" God does not condemn anyone to hell. Everyone has to individually choose for himself or herself to live eternally in heaven or to live eternally in hell. Not choosing is not a choice; by default, that person gets hell.

Next, one might ask, "But, is that fair?"

Yes, because God owns the universe. He created the universe; He created the heavens and the earth; He created man. We belong to Him and the universe belongs to Him. He has the right to make any rules He so desires. However, the good news is; His rules are always fair, just, and righteous. So, when He tells us, "To enter My heaven, you must, by grace through faith -- put your faith in My Son, Jesus Christ. He is the only Way to enter My heaven" -- He has this right. It is His house.

For thirty-two years, this month, I have been married to my beautiful Filipina wife, Dory. Before meeting and marrying a Filipina, I never visited a home where I had to remove my shoes to enter. But, when I began, in 1987, attending a Filipino-American church and attending Bible studies in Filipino homes -- I learned very quickly that I must remove my shoes before entering these homes. For years, I have kept a pair of house slippers in a bag which I take with me to Bible study. I call these my Bible study shoes; for when I enter a home, I remove my street shoes and put on my house slippers, my Bible Study Shoes.

Many, such as me, who were born in America and have lived their entire lives in America may say, "That is not fair. Why should they make you take off your shoes to enter their home?"

Well, there is a simple answer. It is their home. And, I have adapted to their custom.

We live in God's world, His home. He tells us that Jesus Christ is the ONLY WAY to enter the kingdom of God. So, if a person is so pig headed that he refuses; then, he is allowed to choose the other home -- the kingdom of Satan, hell.

John 1:12 (nkjv), "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name."

John 3:36 (nasb), "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 14:6 (nasb), "Jesus said to him, 'I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me.'"

These verses makes it very clear that salvation is a personal choice -- a choice that each individual must make.

So, is it arrogant or acting superior when I say that I know that I am going to spend eternity in heaven? No. For we have the definite promises of Jesus Christ Himself that this is true for all Christian believers.

John 3:16 (nasb), "For God so loved the world (Punkin, Bill, Deep, David, Skeptik, et al -- all people), that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."

John 6:47 (nasb), "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life."

Then, Punkin, you tell me, "My Church just calls itself Christ's Church, and we try to do just what the Bible says. Why do you seem to think that the Old Testament is still as valid today as it was before Jesus. Don't you think that the Old Testament's authority passed away when Jesus established his Kingdom back on the Day of Pentecost?"

Should the New Testament church of today put aside the Old Testament and use only the New Testament as our full teaching and revelation from God? Think about that question. If so, how would one explain the Creation, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" (Genesis 1:1)? What do we do with all the New Testament verses where Jesus Himself quotes from the Old Testament? Shall we expunge those verses from the New Testament?

No, my Friend, our Bible is the full 66 books: 39 in the Old Testament, 27 in the New Testament. The Old Testament looks forward to the cross. The New Testament looks back at His finished work upon the cross.

I prefer to look at Genesis 1:1 as the main building block of the Bible; if we discard that initial foundation -- upon what will we build?

John 1:1 establishes the deity of Jesus Christ. Without that, we would have no Christian faith. Which is more important -- Genesis
1:1 or John 1:1? Both are equally essential -- for upon both has He built our faith and our salvation.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 (nasb), "All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work."

Matthew 5:17 (nasb), "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill."

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From Pastor Chuck Smith's (Calvary Chapel) Matthew 5 C2000 Series Commentary (Blue Letter Bible web site):

The law required death for disobedience. Jesus came to fulfill the law by dying for our disobedience. He came to fulfill the prophets where Isaiah said, "All we like sheep have gone astray; we've turned every one of us to our way; and God laid on Him the iniquities of us all" (Isaiah 53:6). He came to fulfill the law and the prophets. I haven't come to destroy it; I've come to fulfill it. And that is why Paul the apostle wrote, "Christ is the end of the law to those that believe" (Romans 10:4); because he has brought us into a new relationship with God that involves our faith in Jesus Christ as the basis for our righteous standing before God, for he fulfilled the law. He did not come to bring an end to it, but to fulfill it, and he fulfilled the requirements of the law for us, dying in our place.

One day Jesus was asked the question, "What is the greatest commandment?" And Jesus answered correctly, "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, with all thy soul, with all thy strength and with all their mind." And Jesus added, "And the second is just like it; Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself." And he said, "in these two are all the law and the prophets" (Matthew 22:36-40). This is a summary, a very short summary of all of the law and the prophets; love God with all your heart, love your neighbor as yourself.

Paul the apostle said, "For love is the fulfilling of the law and he who loves has fulfilled the law" (Romans 13:8). Now the law was given in negative: thou shalt not, thou shalt not, thou shalt not. Jesus turned it around to the positive: "thou shalt love the Lord thy God, thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself" and therein is the fulfillment.

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For those immersed in Liberal Theology and for the non-believers, the next question typically will be: "Bill, this says that love fulfills the Law. All we have to do is to love one another; for that is what Jesus told us in Matthew 22. Why isn't this enough to gain a person salvation, to gain entry into heaven?"

First, no one in the Old Testament could be saved under the Law. Romans 3:19-20 (nasb), "Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin."

The Romans 3:20 footnote in my Harper's NASB Study Bible reads: "The moral law serves four definite purposes: (1) it exhibits the moral perfection of God; (2) it reveals the inexcusable guilt of man and convicts him as a hopeless sinner; (3) it provides a standard by which human society is, at least imperfectly, governed; and (4) it serves as a guide to believers as to how they may best please their redeeming God and do His will, which is to them the most important motive in life."

Galatians 3:23-29 (nasb), "But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise."

Under the Law of the Old Testament, no one was saved. But, in Hebrews chapter 11, we read of many Old Testament saints, "By faith Abel" -- "By faith Enoch" -- "By faith Noah" -- "By faith Abraham" and so on. The Old Testament saints were not saved by the Law; they were taught by the Law, they were made aware of their sin nature by the Law -- but, their faith saved them, even as they looked toward their coming Messiah. Yet, even then -- their faith allowed them only to wait in the Bosom of Abraham, in Hades -- until their Messiah, Jesus Christ, came. Then, they were taken into heaven. Thus validating John 14:6 (nasb), "Jesus said to him, 'I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me.'"
The Old Testament saints waited in Hades until Jesus Christ, their Messiah, came to personally take them into heaven -- after He died on the cross to pay "in full" the sin debt for all mankind. (Ephesians 4:8).

Today, Christian believers are taken into heaven upon their earthly death. For the Christian believer, when he breathes his last breath on earth -- his next breath will be in heaven, in the presence of Jesus Christ.

So, no, Punkin, we cannot discard the Old Testament. Yet, the question which all of our atheist Friends will surely raise is, "In the Old Testament, the penalty for homosexuality, fornication, and many other sins was death. Should those people be killed today because of those sins? If the Old Testament is still valid; why not the penalties given there?"

Yes, the Old Testament penalty of death for our sins is still valid. However, praise God, Jesus Christ "paid in full" that physical death sentence we all deserve. Now, we can attain life, spiritual and eternal life, through faith in Him.

Jesus Christ died on the cross to pay for all our sins. In the Old Testament, the penalty for sin was death, physical death. Jesus Christ paid our physical death penalty debt in full. Today, we read in the New Testament, "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Romans 6:23 nasb). The wages of sin today is still death: physical and spiritual death. But, Jesus Christ paid your physical death penalty. To have your spiritual death penalty overturned; all you have to do is, by the grace of God, through faith in Jesus Christ (Ephesians 2:8-9) -- sincerely invite Jesus Christ to come into your heart and into your life and be your personal Lord and Savior (Revelation 3:20). If you do this, you WILL have eternal life with God.

So, Punkin, is the Old Testament valid today? One of the strongest proofs that the Bible is the inspired, inerrant Word of God is prophecy. Of the over 1800 prophecies in the Bible, by far the largest portion of them is found in the Old Testament. Prophecies of Jesus Christ, the Messiah, begin in Genesis and run throughout the Old Testament all the way to Malachi -- over 300 prophecies of the Messiah. Then we have all the End Time prophecies. If we discard the Old Testament and teach only from the New Testament; we must throw away the richness of God's prophecies to us. If we discard the Old Testament, we must throw away all the great stories of history, all the beautiful poetry and songs found in Psalms, all the wisdom found in Proverbs and Ecclesiastes. Can you imagine discarding all these treasures?

Punkin, praise God, He gave us the entire Bible, both the Old Testament and the New Testament as His full revelation to man. We believe that it is the Written Word of God; is a supernaturally given revelation from God Himself; and reveals to all believers the nature, character, will, and purposes of God; that it is the complete revelation of His will for the salvation of mankind, and is the final authority for all matters pertaining to our Christian lives.

Would you really want to discard ANY of this amazing book?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Tomme73Tomme73Hall of Famer
Why wouldn't It be? Every page is filled with Jesus Christ. You can't discard ANY of It. Jesus is Its grandest subject, our good is designed, and the Glory of God is Its end. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." The Word is ALIVE! It cuts like a sword through the darkness, with a message of Life to the hopeless and afraid, breathing Life into all who believe!
Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by Tomme73:
Why wouldn't It be? Every page is filled with Jesus Christ. You can't discard ANY of It. Jesus is Its grandest subject, our good is designed, and the Glory of God is Its end. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." The Word is ALIVE! It cuts like a sword through the darkness, with a message of Life to the hopeless and afraid, breathing Life into all who believe!

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Max KusterMax KusterHall of Famer
One of the first philosophical principles that we learn are that few things are proofs unto themselves. The Christian Bible, which was compiled from a number of ancient texts, claims to be such an item.

There is a fundamental problem however. Ordinary men in the Dark Ages, selected and edited various manuscripts to make them conform with one another. Additionally, other manuscripts, such as are found in the Catholic Apocrypha, were simply left out. This is a clear fact of history. After the selections were made and edited, the Bible was canonized by the early Catholic church.

It is not a word for word inspired work of God, but a testament to the machinations of men who, in order to secure their own superiority over a largely illiterate, uneducated population promulgated this cynical untruthful book.

Yes, great truths are found in the Bible's teachings. But how can a book, which claims to be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, and is proven in the historical record to be such a compilation as I have described, be trusted on any count? This is a sad indictment indeed, for it gives comfort to many people.

But the fact remains, that though many are comforted, a larger number of people around the world are condemned by the same writings. This is simply a Middle Ages device to bring certain people (Catholics) into power, and to keep them there.

I am an agnostic who fervently wishes he knew the truth about the Higher Power, believed by many to have created the universe. In my studies, I have thoroughly read the Bible, and unfortunately have found it wanting. Anything that claims to be the inspired word of God, and is so easily discredited by History, can simply not be.
Max KusterMax KusterHall of Famer
LMM, You are not that observant, evidently. I did not deny the existence of a Higher Power.

Here's what I said,"
I am an agnostic who fervently wishes he knew the truth about the Higher Power, believed by many to have created the universe."

I want to know the truth. That's all. I think that you're reading meaning into my statement that is simply not there. Sorry, but you must simply take what I say without reading anything else into it.

Going to be now. G'night.
Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
Hi Max,

Welcome to the Religion Forum. Although, I will admit that I do get that strange feeling that you are our dear atheist Friend, Deep, wearing another costume. I am always amused when our atheist Friends feel that strong need to post using different names. It does make me wonder if it is only so that the atheist may dialogue with himself -- therefore lending support to himself through an anonymous donor.

But, be that as it may, you tell us, "Yes, great truths are found in the Bible's teachings. But how can a book, which claims to be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, and is proven in the historical record to be such a compilation as I have described, be trusted on any count? This is a sad indictment indeed, for it gives comfort to many people.

And, at this point, I will have to ask of you: Show me one instance where the Bible is in error. Science, archeology, has proven the Bible to be right many, many times -- but, it has never, even once, shown the Bible to be in error. So, Max, please show us reliable historical record which proves the Bible wrong.

Then, you tell us, "But the fact remains, that though many are comforted, a larger number of people around the world are condemned by the same writings. This is simply a Middle Ages device to bring certain people (Catholics) into power, and to keep them there.

The only folks condemned in the Bible are those who have denied God -- and have refused His free gift of salvation which has been "paid in full" by Jesus Christ on the cross. So, in reality, God has not condemned these people; they have condemned themselves by rejecting God's gift of salvation.

Next, you tell us, "I am an agnostic who fervently wishes he knew the truth about the Higher Power, believed by many to have created the universe. In my studies, I have thoroughly read the Bible, and unfortunately have found it wanting. Anything that claims to be the inspired word of God, and is so easily discredited by History, can simply not be."

And, my Friend, LMM, replies, "Max, You are an atheist."

You then respond, "Now, I am trying to avoid putting labels on the individuals here. I think I know my beliefs better than anyone. There is a difference between atheists and agnostics. You are a clever, and interesting person."

How true, Max. There is a big difference between the atheist and the agnostic. The atheist is the one with his head buried in the sand, ostrich-style, afraid to look -- because God just might be real.

And, the agnostic is Humpty-Dumpty sitting on the fence -- ready to fall in either direction -- dependent upon which way the spiritual wind blows.

You claim to have read the Bible; but, I suspect you have read much more of Dawkins, Hitchens, et al -- than of the Bible.

I find it hard to believe anyone has read the full Bible who is not a believer. Why do I feel this way? Well, I recall my own attempts to read the Bible before I was a believer. For many years, I traveled because of my job in the computer industry. I lost track of how many hotel rooms, how many cities, how many airports -- I passed through. And, that kind of lifestyle does get lonely and often depressing. At times when I felt lonely, in need of a spiritual pick-me-up, or just plain needed strength to get through another series of hotel rooms and cities -- I would open the bedside night stand drawer and take out the Gideon's Bible. I had often heard how some folks found comfort and peace reading the Bible -- and I needed that comfort and peace.

I would read a few verses -- and, confused because I did not understand what I was reading -- would put it back into the drawer, turn on the television, or go for a walk. I did lots of walking in those days.

My point is this: I found no comfort in the Bible -- because I did not understand the Bible. To me, it was a nice book that many had recommended; but, it just left me confused. Why was this? Because I did not have the spiritual discernment which one can only get through the Holy Spirit.

In 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 we read, "And even if our Gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the Gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God."

That is a good description of me in those days; my eyes were veiled, I was perishing, I could not see God nor understand His Word -- for I was under the influence of the god of this world, Satan.

Why would the Gospel be veiled to the non-believer? Because the god of this world, Satan, has blinded the eyes of the non-believer. He uses those who believe they are smarter than God, i.e., Dawkins, Hitchens, and many of our atheist Friends on the Religion Forum -- to blind the minds of many who might otherwise seek and find the glory of God.

2 Corinthians 4:6, "For God, who said, 'Light shall shine out of darkness,' is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ."

Yes, the only way a person can have the Light shine into their hearts is for the Holy Spirit to illumine them with the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Many who have not hardened theirs hearts completely, as did Pharaoh in Egypt, always have the chance of cracking the door of their hearts, just a wee bit -- to allow some of the Holy Spirit light to pierce the darkness. Praise God, that happened for me -- and it can happen for everyone who will not allow Satan to completely harden their hearts.

In Luke 8:9-10, after Jesus had told the multitude the Parable of the Sower, his disciples questioned Him, "Then His disciples asked Him, saying, 'What does this parable mean?' And He said, 'To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is given in parables, that "Seeing they may not see, And hearing they may not understand."'"

Those whose heart is still totally wrapped in darkness -- will not see, even though the light is coming from Christ Himself.

Pastor Chuck Smith of Calvary Chapel speaks of the Parable of the Sower in his commentary on Luke 7-8 (C2000 Series):

So we realize that the Word of God falls on different types of soil, or there is a different reception in the hearts of people to the Word of God. And the Lord is sort of illustrating the four types of people upon whom the Word of God falls.

"Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved" (Luke 8:12).

Immediately there is just nothing, there is no penetration. The Word comes, but immediately Satan snatches it away, and it is as though they had never heard.

That is the spiritual darkness which engulfs all non-believers. That is the spiritual darkness which engulfed me before 1987. But, praise God, by the grace of God -- that changed for me -- and it can change for you.

In 1987, God brought a loving, Godly pastor, Sam Lacanienta, into my life -- and God changed my life through that pastor. It was not overnight; but, it happened. I met Pastor Sam when Dory and I went to a friend's home for a party one Saturday evening. The first thing I noticed was that he was full of love; which I later recognized as Godly love. Because it was a party, he did not preach or evangelize; but, the warmth and love I felt from him made me want to attend their church the next day.

At this church, I felt that same love -- sent by God, flowing through this pastor, and permeating the entire congregation. That love made me want come back the next Sunday. My wife had been trying to get me to go to church for ten years; yet, God accomplished this by showing His love through one man and through one congregation.

The following Friday, my wife, Dory, asked if I wanted to go to Bible study. I had no idea what this was, since all the churches I had wandered in and out of for fifty years -- had never invited me to one. But, we went to the home Bible study at the Nibut home and I felt that same love in this group.

This love, from God, through the pastor, permeating the congregation and the Bible study group -- kept me coming back to Sunday worship and to Bible study for the next six months. That six months was a time of growing for me. With their help, guided by the Holy Spirit, I began to understand the Bible and the messages God has for us in His Bible. It was like light shining into a perpetually dark room; it was God's light finally shining into my heart. At the end of six months, I invited Jesus Christ to be my personal Lord and Savior; I became a Christ Follower, a Christian.

That darkness which kept me from understanding the Bible all those years, in all those hotel rooms -- was finally extinguished by the Word of God. And, Max, this can happen for you, for Deep, for Skeptik, for Miami, and for all non-believers -- if you are willing to take your head out of the sand -- or climb down off your agnostic wall -- and see God for who He truly is -- your only Way to have eternal LIFE.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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D davidnmilesHall of Famer
quote:
You are an atheist, just admit it and you will feel better. Skep finally admitted it, DF finally admitted he despises all Christians.


Why would any rational, intelligent, thinking person not admit being an atheist? I would certainly NOT "feel better" if I held irraitonal beliefs unsupported by evidence. I am elated that I am able to know rather than merely believe.

Of course I am an atheist.
Max KusterMax KusterHall of Famer
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Hi Max,

Welcome to the Religion Forum. Although, I will admit that I do get that strange feeling that you are our dear atheist Friend, Deep, wearing another costume. I am always amused when our atheist Friends feel that strong need to post using different names. It does make me wonder if it is only so that the atheist may dialogue with himself -- therefore lending support to himself through an anonymous donor.

And, at this point, I will have to ask of you: Show me one instance where the Bible is in error. Science, archeology, has proven the Bible to be right many, many times -- but, it has never, even once, shown the Bible to be in error. So, Max, please show us reliable historical record which proves the Bible wrong.


You claim to have read the Bible; but, I suspect you have read much more of Dawkins, Hitchens, et al -- than of the Bible.



Bill, I do not wish to get into fruitless arguments as to whether or not I am in actuality DeepFat. I have been accused of that already by someone else. To answer your accusation, the answer is simply, I am not DeepFat. I admit, he is an intelligent fellow and a worthy intellectual opponent. Which is more than I can say for most of the others here. While DeepFat gives pointed questions, and occasionally expresses his thoughts in an irritating and abrasive manner, no one will question his ability to bring the fight to his opponent. With that in mind, I take your gnostic statement as a compliment!

I do not need to argue your points regarding the origin of the Christian Bible. They are beyond argument. From about 1200, BCE, the Old Testament was carried on in oral tradition until about the second century, CE when the stories began being committed to writing. That the texts were edited for conformity, is beyond doubt. That the early Catholics compiled these texts is without question. That the Catholic Church throughout the Dark Ages used its power and authority over its minions is without doubt. And the fact that the church preached conformity to the Bible (its book), or spend an eternity burning in a hell fire, is beyond doubt.

Personally, I do not care what you believe. You are choosing to muse over a book that was entirely the work of men in the Dark Ages who sought to gain and hold onto power. It appears that it is still working on you.

Keep your superiority platitudes to yourself, and do not waste them on me, DeepFat or anyone who chooses to use their mind as an instrument of intellectual gain. I have trounced a lot of pious, religious zealots considerably smarter than you.
Last edited by Max Kuster
FirenzeVeritasFirenzeVeritasOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by Tomme73:
Why wouldn't It be? Every page is filled with Jesus Christ. You can't discard ANY of It. Jesus is Its grandest subject, our good is designed, and the Glory of God is Its end. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." The Word is ALIVE! It cuts like a sword through the darkness, with a message of Life to the hopeless and afraid, breathing Life into all who believe!


If it's valid today, why are we not offering animal sacrifice and worshiping on the sabbath (yes, I know Seventh Day Adventist do)?
D davidnmilesHall of Famer
quote:
And, at this point, I will have to ask of you: Show me one instance where the Bible is in error. Science, archeology, has proven the Bible to be right many, many times -- but, it has never, even once, shown the Bible to be in error. So, Max, please show us reliable historical record which proves the Bible wrong.


Bill, science does not waste time demonstrating the falsity of every absurdity presented by superstitious people. It’s function is to provide us with knowledge. Science has provided us with the laws of nature that govern the universe. For the following story to be true, the laws of science would have to be broken.

The Bible says that a virgin got pregnant by an invisible deity. This illegitimate offspring walked on water, turned water into wine, sent 2000 demons scurrying into swine, raised a dead man from the dead, turned stones into bread. He had all the qualities of supernatural being, but he couldn’t save himself from a handful of Roman soldiers. But after he had been dead for three days, he hopped up and flew off into never-never land to be with his father who allegedly sacrificed him because he loved us so much. Ironically, the father is really the son. Before going, he claimed he would return to earth and save all his followers from the forces of evil. To add absurdity to this story of his death, the Bible claims the purpose of the crucifixion was to remove sin from we humans. After 2000 years, Christ has failed to return--and obviously never will. Sin is as much with us today as it was before Christ.

No acts ever performed by this mythological character have ever been corroborated by historical or archeological evidence. It is just one of the myriad of myths created during human history.

***************************
Which one of the following is true?

Our planet eternal? "The earth abideth forever," Ecclesiastes 1:4.

Or is it doomed to extinction. "The elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and works that are therein shall be burned up," II Peter 3:10.
Last edited by davidnmiles
Tomme73Tomme73Hall of Famer
quote:
Originally posted by FirenzeVeritas:
quote:
Originally posted by Tomme73:
Why wouldn't It be? Every page is filled with Jesus Christ. You can't discard ANY of It. Jesus is Its grandest subject, our good is designed, and the Glory of God is Its end. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." The Word is ALIVE! It cuts like a sword through the darkness, with a message of Life to the hopeless and afraid, breathing Life into all who believe!


If it's valid today, why are we not offering animal sacrifice and worshiping on the sabbath (yes, I know Seventh Day Adventist do)?


Jesus took care of the animal sacrifices. "Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy." The days of the week were named by men. The order of those days' names was decided by men. Whether you (not "you" as in Firenze) choose to worship on Saturday or Sunday, who cares? The point is to "remember." If the names of the days had been important, the Bible would have read, "So the evening and the morning were the first day, called Sunday." Some might argue "that's why Sunday is called Sunday, because God made light on the first day." Why wouldn't Sunday be the fourth day of the week, though? That's when God made the sun. He also made the moon on that day, so why do we have a Monday? Because men named the days of the week. Most Christians have adopted Sunday as their Sabbath and have, for the most part, kept Sunday holy.
D davidnmilesHall of Famer
quote:
Because men named the days of the week. Most Christians have adopted Sunday as their Sabbath and have, for the most part, kept Sunday holy.


Those men naming the days of the week were Pagans.
Sun’s day, Moon’s day, Tiw’s day, Woden’s day, Thor’s day, Frigga’s day and Saturn’s day.

Other than from an ancient and meaningless biblical decree, why should we keep the Sabbath holy?
Max KusterMax KusterHall of Famer
I have had arguments with many people on any number of subjects. But I will state unequivocally, the the most vocal and least knowledgeable people with whom I have dealt are fundamentalist Christians.

At least Bill Gray will reply with somewhat thoughtful, if overly pious, answers. However, Mr Tomme73, you do not know the facts of your own Bible.

Mt suggestion to you, is find another forum of like minds. Nobody here will ascribe any credibility to your comments because of the incomprehensible nonsense you spout. I am quite finished with you.
Tomme73Tomme73Hall of Famer
quote:
Originally posted by Max Kuster:
I have had arguments with many people on any number of subjects. But I will state unequivocally, the the most vocal and least knowledgeable people with whom I have dealt are fundamentalist Christians.

At least Bill Gray will reply with somewhat thoughtful, if overly pious, answers. However, Mr Tomme73, you do not know the facts of your own Bible.

Mt suggestion to you, is find another forum of like minds. Nobody here will ascribe any credibility to your comments because of the incomprehensible nonsense you spout. I am quite finished with you.


Well, that didn't take long. What facts am I lacking?
Tomme73Tomme73Hall of Famer
quote:
Originally posted by davidnmiles:
quote:
Because men named the days of the week. Most Christians have adopted Sunday as their Sabbath and have, for the most part, kept Sunday holy.


Those men naming the days of the week were Pagans.
Sun’s day, Moon’s day, Tiw’s day, Woden’s day, Thor’s day, Frigga’s day and Saturn’s day.

Other than from an ancient and meaningless biblical decree, why should we keep the Sabbath holy?


David,
That post was a reply to someone else asking about animal sacrifices and the Sabbath. I know those men naming the days of the week were pagans. I researched that topic. They were, those men, Norsemen who invaded England centuries before the Norman Conquests. Granted, the Romans pretty much started the whole thing, but those old Norsemen did things their own way. Saturday was left alone. I applaud your use of factual information, rather than scientific speculation, to support your argument. Before you start, stop. I'm not going to argue Christianity with you. Your eternity lies in YOUR hands.
PunkinPunkinSmall Talker
I just wish Mr. Bill Gray would come on here and read all of these mean spirited statements. I only know this, when I read my Bible, I feel better.

And I don't know if I will ever read anything by Mr. Davidmiles, or Mr. Max Kuster again. To say that the Bible is not true. Well, I would not want to be in there shoes when Jesus comes back to take the faithful home!
Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by Max Kuster:
Keep your superiority platitudes to yourself, and do not waste them on me, DeepFat or anyone who chooses to use their mind as an instrument of intellectual gain. I have trounced a lot of pious, religious zealots considerably smarter than you.

Hi Max,

It seems I owe Deep an apology. Your statement above sounds more like David that Deep. And, may God protect us from having a David clone or dual personality on the Forum. Other than David, no one else has made such self-promoting announcements of his great intelligence.

But, since you declared the Bible to have errors -- and you cannot give me specifics; I will just assume you have realized that you are wrong.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
Hi all,

In this discussion "Is The Old Testament Still Valid In The New Testament Churches?" -- Tomme has stated, "Why wouldn't It be? Every page is filled with Jesus Christ. You can't discard ANY of It. Jesus is Its grandest subject, our good is designed, and the Glory of God is Its end. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." The Word is ALIVE! It cuts like a sword through the darkness, with a message of Life to the hopeless and afraid, breathing Life into all who believe!"

And, Firenze has replied, "If it's valid today, why are we not offering animal sacrifice and worshiping on the sabbath (yes, I know Seventh Day Adventist do)?"

There is a simple answer. In the Old Testament, the Jews sacrificed animals under the Law to attain temporary atonement; but, had to continue their sacrifices since no one could be saved under the Law (Romans 3:20). The Law was given to make them aware of their sin, to make them aware of their need for a Kinsman Redeemer, their Messiah (Galatians 3:24).

Jesus Christ came to be the "once for all" sacrifice. His death on the cross took the "sin debt" for all people and marked it "Paid In Full!" In other words, His death was the full payment for our pardon. We had been convicted and condemned to death. He took our place and paid that debt in full. All we -- you, me, Deep, David, Skeptik, and all people -- have to do is to accept and receive this Full Pardon which He purchased with His blood on the cross.

Can you imagine anyone on death row, in any prison in the world, being offered a full pardon -- and refusing it? Yet, that is exactly what folks do when they refuse to receive the free gift, the full pardon, "paid in full" by Jesus Christ on the cross.

That sacrifice of Jesus Christ was the last sacrifice needed -- under the Law and in today's church.

Why do we worship on Sunday, the first day of the week, in most churches today -- rather than on the Jewish Sabbath, Saturday?

The Sabbath was established when God created the heavens and the earth in six day, and on the seventh day, He rested (Genesis 2:2). Did God really get tired from all that creation work and need to rest? No. He was setting a pattern that we finite humans should follow -- work six days and take a day of rest. This was to protect our health. He set the same standard for domestic animals. And, for the fields which provide food, they are to be planted six years and then allowed to lay for one year. The Sabbath is the rest needed by all created beings and life.

The word Sabbath is from the Hebrew word "shabbath" which comes from the Hebrew root word, "shabath" which according to Strong's Concordance means, "to cease, desist, rest."

So, the Sabbath in the Old Testament was to be a day of rest -- not necessarily a day of worship.

And, in Mark 2:27-28, Jesus confirmed this when He said to the Pharisees, "The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath. So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath."

In other words, the Sabbath day, the Rest day, was made for man to rest and to recover his strength -- not made to enslave man to a "one day a week" worship. Truthfully, we should be worshipping God seven days a week; but, we meet for fellowship and corporate worship one day a week.

Mark 16:9, "Now after He had risen early on the first day of the week, He first appeared to Mary Magdalene, from whom He had cast out seven demons."

In Acts 20:7 we read of the early church, "On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul began talking to them,. . ." In other words, on the first day of the week, Sunday, they gathered for fellowship, breaking bread -- and Paul taught them -- corporate worship.

Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath; yet, He chose to rise, to be resurrected, on the first day of the week, Sunday. His resurrections is the cornerstone of Christianity. We read in 1 Corinthians 15:1-8, the Gospel: Christ died for our sins, was buried, and was raised on the third day when He appeared to over 500 believers. That is the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The anchor of that Gospel is that He Rose, He was Resurrected.

In 1 Corinthians 15:13-14 we are told, "But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised; and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain." In other words, if Christ was not resurrected -- there is no risen Savior, He would still be in the grave -- and all the teachings of Christianity would be empty words. Why do you think the atheists try so hard to invalidate the Bible? If the Bible is not the true Word of God; then what we are told in the Bible of the resurrection of Jesus Christ is not true. And, if the resurrection is not true -- there is no Christianity, there is no salvation, there is no eternal hope.

However, praise the Lord! The resurrection is true! Jesus Christ did rise from the grave; thus assuring that all men will also be resurrected: those who follow Him to eternal salvation; those who deny Him to eternal condemnation. And, Jesus Christ did ascend into heaven in His immortal, glorified body to sit at the right hand of God the Father -- where He is our Advocate, our Mediator, our Intercessor -- interceding with the Father for all believers 24/7/365. Praise God!

And, this is why we Christians place so much emphasis on worshiping Him on the day He was resurrected -- the first day of the week. He blessed it through His resurrection; we honor it in His name.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by Max Kuster:
I have had arguments with many people on any number of subjects. But I will state unequivocally, the the most vocal and least knowledgeable people with whom I have dealt are fundamentalist Christians.

At least Bill Gray will reply with somewhat thoughtful, if overly pious, answers. However, Mr Tomme73, you do not know the facts of your own Bible.

Mt suggestion to you, is find another forum of like minds. Nobody here will ascribe any credibility to your comments because of the incomprehensible nonsense you spout. I am quite finished with you.

Hi Tomme,

Let me assure you that most folks on the Forum, if given a choice, would vote to see Max leave the forum.

Just ignore this new reincarnation of our existing self-proclaimed great mind. For, beyond his insults and insinuations -- he is empty hot air.

I, for one, Tomme, welcome you and am happy to see you on the Religion Forum.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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D davidnmilesHall of Famer
quote:
But, since you declared the Bible to have errors -- and you cannot give me specifics; I will just assume you have realized that you are wrong.


Bill, as usual you refuse to comment when you are stymied by sheer brilliance. One of the following is wrong.

Is our planet eternal? "The earth abideth forever," Ecclesiastes 1:4.

Or is it doomed to extinction. "The elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and works that are therein shall be burned up," II Peter 3:10.
Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by Punkin:
I just wish Mr. Bill Gray would come on here and read all of these mean spirited statements. I only know this, when I read my Bible, I feel better.

And I don't know if I will ever read anything by Mr. Davidmiles, or Mr. Max Kuster again. To say that the Bible is not true. Well, I would not want to be in there shoes when Jesus comes back to take the faithful home!

Hi Punkin

Don't you see the similarity between the two? Who else has come on the Religion Forum and declared themselves to be the "great mind"?

If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck -- it must be a duck.

If it walks like a David, talks like a David -- gee, do you think it could be a David?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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buffalobuffaloPost Master
quote:
Originally posted by Max Kuster:
[

Keep your superiority platitudes to yourself, and do not waste them on me, DeepFat or anyone who chooses to use their mind as an instrument of intellectual gain. I have trounced a lot of pious, religious zealots considerably smarter than you.


MAX so we won't be confused give us some names of notables you have "trounced" we wanna be impressed. Yo dogs and cats don't count. I bet you're blowin smoke up deeps tail. I bet you're just an intellectual wannabe .you just another idiot that can't handle Bro. Bill. you hidin sumpthin.
Max KusterMax KusterHall of Famer
Bill, the errors in the Bible lie in its origins. As I detailed in a previous post, the book is a Medieval compilation which was completed as a written work over several centuries.

Look, here is what I said. "From about 1200, BCE, the Old Testament was carried on in oral tradition until about the second century, CE when the stories began being committed to writing. That the texts were edited for conformity, is beyond doubt. That the early Catholics compiled these texts is without question. That the Catholic Church throughout the Dark Ages used its power and authority over its minions is without doubt. And the fact that the church preached conformity to the Bible (its book), or spend an eternity burning in a hell fire, is beyond doubt."

The very act of compilation and editing to get the stories straight is where the error lies. The error is in the lack of truth. Of the ancient manuscripts that have survived, there are many inconsistencies. But the canonization process reconciled the differences.

Come now, admit that the Bible was not handed into the hands of the early Catholic Church. Face the truth that the Church itself compiled those chapters it thought relevant, and discarded those it did not. What about the Book of Judas? They didn't like the man, so his story was left out. They didn't realize, that if one believes anything about the characters surrounding Jesus, they would know that Judas was in all actuality Jesus's instrument to move history forward toward the fulfillment of the Law. But they didn't like Judas, and he got booted. (This is, if you believe in the inspiration of the Bible... which I don't.)

Why, Bill? You must know that I say the truth about the origins of the Bible! You simply choose to ignore these facts, pretend they were never written, and go about your days in a state of religious delusion.

I have nothing against you personally. I truly don't. But your non-reasoning rigidity does you a great disservice. If you would simply admit to yourself that your faith is based on how you feel, and stop pitching at the windmills of reason, you and I could get along fine.

All the best, Max.
Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
Hi Max,

Are you a politician or a politician-wannabe? You wrote a long dissertation about the Bible and its supposed errors -- but, you have not shown us a single error.

In other words, my Friend, like a politician, you have talked all around the subject -- but, you have ignored the question.

But, not a problem. Smarter folks than you have tried to prove the Bible to be in error -- and failed.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Max KusterMax KusterHall of Famer
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Hi Max,

Are you a politician or a politician-wannabe? You wrote a long dissertation about the Bible and its supposed errors -- but, you have not shown us a single error.

In other words, my Friend, like a politician, you have talked all around the subject -- but, you have ignored the question.

But, not a problem. Smarter folks than you have tried to prove the Bible to be in error -- and failed.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill


Bill, if seems that you are merely scanning my posts, not digesting them. The fact that I posed that the great error in the Bible is the way it was compiled by Man, not God. You act as though I never wrote those words. And that makes my case.

Don't you agree that the written texts were begun in the mid second century,c.e.? Who wrote them? And why?

I do read everything you write. And while I disagree with much, I still read them. I accuse you of having a superiority complex. And when I get non-responses from you such as the ones tonight, it only supports my feelings. You are a smart man. All the jabs and barbs aside, I respect the amount of work you put into your opinions.

Just do me a favor in the future, please. When I write a response to you, please make your argument based on my missive. If you won't, we will not be able to have a dialogue of any value.

I've been ribbed by folks on this forum for my views, that is Agnosticism. It does not equate to Atheism. I profess that I do not understand the nature of the higher power that supposedly rules this plane of existence. And that is fine. I simply would like to have an intellectual argument with people who will read my words as thoughtfully as I read them. Jabs and all!

At least you are an interesting opponent. I enjoy sparring with you, but when you give me a non-response, I count that as a point for Kuster.

There are some on this forum, for whom I have so little intellectual respect that they will never garner a response. That is the greatest insult of them all, you know.

Peace, Max.
D davidnmilesHall of Famer
quote:
But, not a problem. Smarter folks than you have tried to prove the Bible to be in error -- and failed.


Bill, as usual you refuse to comment when you are stymied by sheer brilliance. One of the following is wrong.

Is our planet eternal? "The earth abideth forever," Ecclesiastes 1:4.

Or is it doomed to extinction. "The elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and works that are therein shall be burned up," II Peter 3:10.
D DeepFatOld Faithful
Max,

You are beginning to understand why I do not engage Mr. Bill in any discussions anymore.

He is incapable of reason.


In order to have a discussion, both sides must understand the concepts of reason, evidence, and logic.

Both sides must define terms by which they could be proven wrong.

You will not find any such conditions arguing with Mr. Bill. He is incapable of such bravery and intellect.

I say this not to insult Bill, but as a matter of fact. I do not hate Bill, I pity him. His intellectual arrestment is the result of a belief in an ancient dogma that has been discredited in many ways.

I will not ask you to forgive him his reticence. He forgives no one, and deserves no forgiveness.

DF
Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by davidnmiles:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
But, not a problem. Smarter folks than you have tried to prove the Bible to be in error -- and failed.

Bill, as usual you refuse to comment when you are stymied by sheer brilliance. One of the following is wrong.

Is our planet eternal? "The earth abideth forever," Ecclesiastes 1:4.

Or is it doomed to extinction. "The elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and works that are therein shall be burned up," II Peter 3:10.

Hi David,

Gee, you are calling Max's writings sheer brilliance. Yet, you tell us you are the smartest man in existence -- that no power on earth or in heaven can match you. Are we seeing a wee bit of a schizophrenic pattern here?

I must admit that having a dialogue with both you and Max -- is akin to having a dialogue with the main character in the old Joanne Woodward movie, "The Three Faces of Eve" -- an extremely rare example of split personality disorder. However, I will play your little game for today.

You ask if there is a conflict between:

Ecclesiastes 1:4 (nkjv), "One generation passes away, and another generation comes; But the earth abides forever"

and

2 Peter 3:10 (nkjv), "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up."

No, none whatsoever.

First, let's look at what we find in Ecclesiastes. It begins with, "The words of the Preacher, the son of David, king in Jerusalem" (Ecclesiastes 1:1). Thus we see that it was written by Solomon; and most attribute it to his later years when he had fallen into bad times spiritually. Even though God had given him the greatest wisdom a man could attain -- he went against the teachings of God and accumulated to himself about 1000 concubines, i.e, wives. And these wives were from virtually every known nation; all cultures and beliefs. God had told the Israelites not to intermarry with pagans -- and, yet, their leader, King Solomon does it big time.

At the time of writing Ecclesiastes, he was not doing very well spiritually -- having allowed his many wives to bring the worship of their pagan gods into the land of Israel.

And, at this stage of his live, he laments, "Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity" (Ecclesiastes
1:2).

In the beginning of the book of Ecclesiastes, the writer is lamenting how man turns from God and looks only to his own human desires and needs. In other words, Vanity of vanities, i.e, life without God is like looking into a mirror of life and seeing nothing but one's self. In his fallen, worldly ways -- he is telling is that even though "one generation goes and another comes" -- nothing changes with the man who is only living for his own pleasures and desires. This is a conditions to which our atheist and non-believing Friends should be able to relate. In other words, having an "I" problem -- I want this, I want that, I will do this, I will do that. All "I" -- no God.

But, the writer affirms that, even though he, and man, has fallen -- God's earth will remain forever.

Does 2 Peter 3:10 refute this? No, not at all. God's earth will remain forever. Yet, we do know that it will be refurbished as we are told in Revelation 21. When God brings about the New Heaven and the New Earth -- will He destroy the old earth and start afresh? We cannot say for sure. But, we do know that Jesus Christ tells us, in Revelation 21:5, "Behold, I am making all things new."

Regardless of whether He chooses to put the old world into a smelter, melt it, and use that to create a New Earth -- or whether He will just speak the New Earth into existence, as He did before -- it will still be the world, the earth, continuing to exist, eternally -- only, it will be a world which is totally like the Garden of Eden was in the beginning. "Behold, He is making all things new!" And, the earth and all believers who go into eternity with Him will be there -- and we will be in our new immortal, eternal bodies -- and the New Earth will part of our eternal heavenly existence.

Now, don't you want to be a part of this? Think how much better this will be, rather that eternity with Satan. You, both your personalities, should really think hard about this. Your eternal life is at stake.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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buffalobuffaloPost Master
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Max Kuster:
.

I posed that the great error in the Bible is the way it was compiled by Man,

kuster tell us this error in the way man compiled it.
Are you suggesting we follow the logic that anyway man compiles a book without consulting you, results in great error?
I doubt seriously your credentials as being a threat to the integrity of a childrens fable let-a-lone the Bible.

Let's hear your suggestion as to how it should have been compiled by man. You seem to suggest having been there.
Max KusterMax KusterHall of Famer
quote:
Originally posted by DeepFat:
Max,

You are beginning to understand why I do not engage Mr. Bill in any discussions anymore.

He is incapable of reason. DF


As a lover of philosophy, the great questions of life are fodder for enlightenment. And I love nothing better that a fine argument! Perhaps soon you and I can discuss the differences between atheism and agnosticism. I am certain it would be lively! However, I doubt that there would be any of the sort of head-in-the-sand rhetoric as is displayed by your so called, 'fundys'.

I am still trying to reach the kernel of intellect that I am sure lies within Bill Gray. But I have to say, that I am about at my wit's end.

To express that the fundamental error in the Bible is in the way it was developed. To boil that notion down to basically one or two paragraphs. Then, when the questioner then pretends that the words were never written is somewhat maddening.

I can certainly see a point in time when I will stop wasting my time on Bill. There are a couple of posters on this forum that I consider to be complete idiots. They will know who they are, by the fact that I will never engage them, no matter what they say about my commentary, or about me personally.

I can see that, noting the differences in our personal style of responses, neither of us suffer fools. And there are quite a few in the fundamentalist Christian community.

Is Bill Gray one of them? His words will speak for themselves. Is he incapable of reason? At the present time, I give Bill the benefit of the doubt. Just as he says about faith, the decision to thoughtfully reason through dissenting concepts is entirely his choice.
buffalobuffaloPost Master
Kuster, I think I can save you some time and embarrassment. You and defat combined are not gonna outdo Bill intellectually. He is far above your ramblings. His hobby of fundamentalism; he keeps it well oiled. Your feeble attempts of suddenly appearing here to get in a few jabs at him is old hat and in the end he will wear you out with his command. Try knitting. Dummy.
D davidnmilesHall of Famer
quote:
Can I ask a question here? Does God ever make mistakes?


It would be easier to answer the question, "Does God ever get it right." Basically, he screws up everything he touches. Take a close look at planet earth.

He has been known to admit that he makes mistakes:

The Lord said, "I am the Lord, I change not." However, he is not above seeing the folly of his ways and changing ("And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people," Exodus 32:14). Let us hope he repents for the harm he has caused humankind today with his cruel and irrational edicts.
buffalobuffaloPost Master
quote:
." Basically, he screws up everything he touches. Take a close look at planet earth.

...and david what do you purpose to do about it?
Jut for drill lets say you are right. He's screwed up. What you gonna do Godbuster? Nothing.
Jus bump yo gums. Get a shovel and plant some trees or sumpyhin. yo iz occupyn space for no rezon.
D davidnmilesHall of Famer
quote:
Originally posted by buffalo:
quote:
." Basically, he screws up everything he touches. Take a close look at planet earth.

...and david what do you purpose to do about it?
Jut for drill lets say you are right. He's screwed up. What you gonna do Godbuster? Nothing.
Jus bump yo gums. Get a shovel and plant some trees or sumpyhin. yo iz occupyn space for no rezon.


Just what I am doing--discrediting the God myth.
When the belief in a God who is in charge of our lives is exponged from the human psyche, humans will then take 100% responsibility for their fate, including the conedition of our planet.
Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by Punkin: Can I ask a question here? Does God ever make mistakes? I am asking you this because of that news story on the Today Show this morning. They were talking about this track star that's a hermaphrodite. Is that a mistake?

Hi Punkin,

No, God does not make mistakes. I can promise you that "Oops!" is not in God's vocabulary.

From the Theopeida web site: http://www.theopedia.com/Omnisapience_of_God

The wisdom of God is sometimes referred to as his omnisapience, just as omniscience means all-knowing, omnisapience means all-wise, etc. By his omniscience, God perfectly knows all possibilities and what would happen if they came to pass. By his omnisapience, his wisdom is perfect so that he knows which course of action is the best (Isaiah 55:8-9; Romans
11:33; Ephesians 1:11-12; 3:10). The wisdom of God is the practical side of God's knowledge, applying knowledge to achieve His desires in ways that will glorify Him the most.

From the book "Bible Doctrine" (page 5), by Dr. Wayne Grudem, we read:

c. The importance of God's unchangeableness. If we stop for a moment to imagine what it would be like if God could change, the importance of this doctrine becomes more clear. For example, if God could change (in His being, perfection, purposes, or promises), then any change would be either for the better or for the worse. But if God changed for the better, then He was not the best possible being when we first trusted Him. And how could we be sure that He is the best possible being now? But if God could change for the worse (in His being), then what kind of God might He become?. . . How could we ever trust such a God who could change?

If God is not unchanging, then the whole basis of our faith begins to fall apart, and our understanding of the universe begins to unravel. This is because our faith and hope and knowledge of all ultimately depend upon a Person who in infinitely worthy of trust -- because He is absolutely and eternally unchanging in His being, perfection, purposes, and promises.

No, Punkin, God does not make mistakes. However, He gave free will to man, Adam and Eve, and they, through the exercise of that free will, chose to disobey God. That disobedience brought death into the creation -- physical and spiritual. And, that disobedience brought decay, an attribute of dying, into the creation. This is why, although Adam and Eve were created in the image of God to be immortal beings; that was changed with their disobedience. We read in Genesis 3:17-19 the curse God put upon Adam and his descendants -- the curse of physical and spiritual death.

Yet, at the same time, He gave man a way to regain both his spiritual life and to once again regain immortal life -- through the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ. God allowed man to fall away of his own volition -- but, God gave him a way home, a way to come back into the arms of their loving, patient God. That Way is Jesus Christ (John 14:6).

At the time of Adam and Eve, the human gene pool was perfect. Yet, over many generations, it deteriorated and imperfections worked their way into that gene pool. We see birth defects such as hermaphroditism, Down's Syndrome, and many others -- not because God has made mistakes -- but, because man, from the day he is born is deteriorating and dying. And, so is his gene pool which causes such birth defects.

But, praise God, He gave us the Way (John 14:6) to overcome these defects and all deficiencies man has brought upon himself through sin, i.e., disobedience -- and to have perfect, immortal, eternal bodies with Him in heaven. Of course, to attain this, one must surrender himself and follow Jesus Christ in this life. If a person is too pig headed, to much into himself, that he will not submit to Jesus Christ in this life -- then, like man condemned himself to physical and spiritual death through disobedience -- this person is condemning himself to eternal life in hell with Satan.

As I said, Punkin, the word "Oops!" is not in God's vocabulary.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by davidnmiles: Just what I am doing -- discrediting the God myth. When the belief in a God who is in charge of our lives is exponged (sic) from the human psyche, humans will then take 100% responsibility for their fate, including the conedition (sic) of our planet.

Hi David,

That will truly happen one day. When the Rapture occurs, all Christian believers will be taken out of this world, and all Christian influence will be taken from this world. All that will be left will be non-believers running the world -- under the direction of their boss, the Antichrist -- who will be taking orders from his boss, Satan.

This will be your "perfect" Godless world. But, I can assure you that you WILL NOT enjoy it.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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buffalobuffaloPost Master
quote:
When the belief in a God who is in charge of our lives is exponged from the human psyche,


somehow you appear as someone that really thinks that’s gonna happen. It seems obvious those who have encouraged subsistence on your part regarding your future have succeeded. Your approach advocates non-civility and gives quarter to jack-brained primitivist's like MAX KUSTER.
D davidnmilesHall of Famer
quote:
Originally posted by Punkin:
Maybe, Mr. Bill, was giving man free will a mistake? Why didn't God just make us to always do the right things?


“Free will” is a key to Christian apologia. The question, “Why does an omnipotent, omniscient, all-merciful deity allow human suffering,“ is perplexing and embarrassing to the God-fearing. The logical answer is that a rational and loving god would not allow human and animal suffering.

Hence, apologists concocted the notion of “free will.” God loves us so much that he allows us to do what we want, and when we do bad things it is because of God’s loving gift of free will. This is an inane justification for God’s failings.

In the first place millions of children die of malnutrition, not because of their own action or inaction, but because of the lack of care from adults. Are we really to believe that God loved the Nazis so much that he gave them the free will to slaughter 6 million Jews. Then there is the issue of animal suffering. Were they endowed with “free will?”

This excuse for God’s ineptness is as ridiculous as saying, “I love my child so much that I gave him the freedom to run out in the traffic and get hit by a car.” But then there is nothing sensible about the God myth.

Then there is always the possibility that God derives great delight from watching humans and animals torture, mame and kill each other.
FirenzeVeritasFirenzeVeritasOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by Punkin:
You boys get after that Max Kuster. The power of God's Word is not to be messed with!

Can I ask a question here? Does God ever make mistakes? I am asking you this because of that news story on the Today Show this morning. They were talking about this track star that's a morphadite. Is that a mistake?


My understanding is the track star in question is intersexed. She does not display external male genitalia. There are pseudo-hermaphrodites and real hermaphrodites. Castor is neither. At one time the condition was called congenital absence of vagina. Now we know the genitalia is male, but is hidden within the body.

BTW, there is much internet gossip that Lady Gaga is a pseuo-hermaphrodite. It's probably not hurting her career any...
FirenzeVeritasFirenzeVeritasOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by Tomme73:
quote:
Originally posted by FirenzeVeritas:
quote:
Originally posted by Tomme73:
Why wouldn't It be? Every page is filled with Jesus Christ. You can't discard ANY of It. Jesus is Its grandest subject, our good is designed, and the Glory of God is Its end. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." The Word is ALIVE! It cuts like a sword through the darkness, with a message of Life to the hopeless and afraid, breathing Life into all who believe!


If it's valid today, why are we not offering animal sacrifice and worshiping on the sabbath (yes, I know Seventh Day Adventist do)?


Jesus took care of the animal sacrifices. "Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy." The days of the week were named by men. The order of those days' names was decided by men. Whether you (not "you" as in Firenze) choose to worship on Saturday or Sunday, who cares? The point is to "remember." If the names of the days had been important, the Bible would have read, "So the evening and the morning were the first day, called Sunday." Some might argue "that's why Sunday is called Sunday, because God made light on the first day." Why wouldn't Sunday be the fourth day of the week, though? That's when God made the sun. He also made the moon on that day, so why do we have a Monday? Because men named the days of the week. Most Christians have adopted Sunday as their Sabbath and have, for the most part, kept Sunday holy.


I worship on Sunday (the first day of the week) because First Century Christians were commanded to do so. My point is the Old Testament was fulfilled with Christ's death and is no longer valid. It is historically interesting and foreshadows the coming of Christ.
PunkinPunkinSmall Talker
Mr. Firenze, I asked Mr. Bill Gray this very question. I asked him if he belived if Christ's Kingdom was began on the Day of Pentecost. Do you know that he started talking all this rapture stuff, and quoting people who wrote books, and all that, and, now that I think about it, he never really answered the question.

I believe in what you do. And, I do not want to offend Mr. Bill, because he has been very patient with me, but I just wish that he would answer my question with a simple yes or no. I don't think he does. I just don't.
Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by Punkin:
Maybe, Mr. Bill, was giving man free will a mistake? Why didn't God just make us to always do the right things?

Hi Punkin,

For the sake of the discussion, I will assume you are married and have children. Do you want you husband to love you from his own desire -- or do you want him to be forced to love you?

If you husband is forced to love you; is that really love -- or robotics?

The same for your children. Do you want them to love you because you are mom, you are lovable, and they adore you. Or would you like them to be programmed robots who have no choice but to love and obey you?

The same applies to God. He created us to have fellowship with Him. He wants us to, of our own free will, love, honor, and obey Him.

Yes, He could have created us and forced us to love Him -- but, how would we be different from robots? How does one measure a love which is forced? How does one measure a love which is done from one's own free will.

This is why God gave us free will. And, the down side is that, under that free will, we may choose to disobey or deny Him.

The upside is that when we love God, there is no greater love that exists.

Personally, I like His "free will" plan.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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AS Aude SapereHall of Famer
I thought the Angles, Saxons and Jutes mostly named our days of the week, taking many of the Roman names and substituting the Germanic for them. So Frigga for Venus, Jupiter becoming Thor, etc. Saturn got to stay, evidently the Germans did not know him. Hence we have dimanche, lundi, mardi, vendredi, etc. in French from the Latin, becoming Sunday (Lord's Day in French), Lundi or Moonday becoming Monday, Mars' Day becoming Mardi and then Tuesday or Tiu's Day, and so on.

Sounds so suspicious that it passes the sniff test for me. Occam's Razor and all that, old bean.
Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by Punkin: Mr. Firenze, I asked Mr. Bill Gray this very question. I asked him if he believed if Christ's Kingdom was began on the Day of Pentecost. Do you know that he started talking all this rapture stuff, and quoting people who wrote books, and all that, and, now that I think about it, he never really answered the question.

I believe in what you do. And, I do not want to offend Mr. Bill, because he has been very patient with me, but I just wish that he would answer my question with a simple yes or no. I don't think he does. I just don't.

Hi Punkin,

First, let's make a clarification. Christ's church, the body of believers, began on the Day of Pentecost; but, Christ's Kingdom did not begin then. In Matthew 4:17 we read, "From that time Jesus began to preach and say, 'Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.'" Jesus is telling them that the kingdom of heaven, in the form of their Messiah, is at hand -- but, the Jews rejected Him. So, although the kingdom of heaven was at hand -- this world was and still is, the kingdom of Satan -- the title deed given to him by Adam. If you doubt this, count the number of Christians in the world -- compared to the number of people in the world religions and the number of non-believers.

So, it was the Church, with Christ as its head, which was begun on the Day of Pentecost. At the end of the Tribulation, Jesus Christ will return with the raptured church, His bride, and the Old Testament saints, to establish His Millennial Kingdom. Then, the Kingdom of Jesus Christ will be on the earth, where He will sit on the throne of David in the holy city of Jerusalem. And, this kingdom of peace will last for one thousand years. Then, we will go into eternity with Him.

Punkin, if you will recall, in the initial post which began this discussion, I opened with:

In another Religion Forum discussion I began, "Can We Truly Understand End Times Prophecies?" -- my Friend, Punkin, has posed comments and questions on several really important issues: (1) the validity of the Old Testament in the New Testament church, and (2) and what defines a "Holiness" church? For more clarity, I have chosen to post my response to these as two separate new discussions.

And, I did indeed answer your question about the validity of the Old Testament. The answer I still owe you -- and have not posted yet -- is the question about the Holiness church.

Regarding the validity of the Old Testament in the New Testament church, I wrote:

The Old Testament saints waited in Hades until Jesus Christ, their Messiah, came to personally take them into heaven -- after He died on the cross to pay "in full" the sin debt for all mankind. (Ephesians 4:8).

Today, Christian believers are taken into heaven upon their earthly death. For the Christian believer, when he breathes his last breath on earth -- his next breath will be in heaven, in the presence of Jesus Christ.

So, no, Punkin, we cannot discard the Old Testament. Yet, the question which all of our atheist Friends will surely raise is, "In the Old Testament, the penalty for homosexuality, fornication, and many other sins was death. Should those people be killed today because of those sins? If the Old Testament is still valid; why not the penalties given there?"

Yes, the Old Testament penalty of death for our sins is still valid. However, praise God, Jesus Christ "paid in full" that physical death sentence we all deserve. Now, we can attain life, spiritual and eternal life, through faith in Him.

Jesus Christ died on the cross to pay for all our sins. In the Old Testament, the penalty for sin was death, physical death. Jesus Christ paid our physical death penalty debt in full. Today, we read in the New Testament, "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Romans 6:23 nasb). The wages of sin today is still death: physical and spiritual death. But, Jesus Christ paid your physical death penalty. To have your spiritual death penalty overturned; all you have to do is, by the grace of God, through faith in Jesus Christ (Ephesians 2:8-9) -- sincerely invite Jesus Christ to come into your heart and into your life and be your personal Lord and Savior (Revelation 3:20). If you do this, you WILL have eternal life with God.

So, Punkin, is the Old Testament valid today? One of the strongest proofs that the Bible is the inspired, inerrant Word of God is prophecy. Of the over 1800 prophecies in the Bible, by far the largest portion of them is found in the Old Testament. Prophecies of Jesus Christ, the Messiah, begin in Genesis and run throughout the Old Testament all the way to Malachi -- over 300 prophecies of the Messiah. Then we have all the End Time prophecies. If we discard the Old Testament and teach only from the New Testament; we must throw away the richness of God's prophecies to us. If we discard the Old Testament, we must throw away all the great stories of history, all the beautiful poetry and songs found in Psalms, all the wisdom found in Proverbs and Ecclesiastes. Can you imagine discarding all these treasures?

Punkin, praise God, He gave us the entire Bible, both the Old Testament and the New Testament as His full revelation to man. We believe that it is the Written Word of God; is a supernaturally given revelation from God Himself; and reveals to all believers the nature, character, will, and purposes of God; that it is the complete revelation of His will for the salvation of mankind, and is the final authority for all matters pertaining to our Christian lives.

Would you really want to discard ANY of this amazing book?

Punkin, does this answer your question about the validity of the Old Testament in our church today? If not, let's discuss if further.

Yes, Jesus Christ came to bring us a New Covenant; but, He did it by fulfilling the Law and the prophets. The Law could not save anyone. It was intended to shine the light upon the coming Messiah, Jesus Christ. No, we cannot discard the Old Testaments; the Ten Commandments is just as valid today as it was then. God gave Moses the Ten Commandments and the Law; then man, the Pharisees and Sadducees, began to add their own additions and rules to God's Law -- until they had it totally burdened with man-made laws.

We have seen the same with our Constitution. The founding fathers gave us a clean Constitution and added the Bill of Rights, ten amendments -- still clean and workable. But, the Constitutional laws we have today are so burdened by all the Supreme Court (our Pharisees) rulings that it is hard to find the original ideas. But, we do not discard the Constitution; nor should we discard the Old Testament.

Jesus came to bring a New Covenant, not to discard the Old Testament teachings. He came to shake off all the dead branches of law which the Pharisees had crammed into the Law. An example is Mark 2:27-28, "Jesus said to them, 'The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath. So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath'"

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by alwilliams767:
Oh, and bye the way, I appoligize for my comment in poor taste this AM. Was having a bad day and took it out on you.

Still disagree with you on the tribulation though!

Hi Al,

Not a problem; apology accepted. Al, while you and I do not agree on theology; I do want us to be Friends. I will continue to refute any New Age theology you present; as you may refute some of what I present -- but, let's still be Friends.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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T Trutooit-IIHall of Famer
Bill, if all 10 of the commandments were valid today, we'd be worshiping on Saturday. I don't. You don't unless you've just converted to 7th day adventist. Nine commandments are repeated in the NT, one isn't: remember the sabbath.

If some civilization who had never heard of the Bible found a NT, they could read it and be saved without ever reading the OT. You know that's true.
Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by Punkin:
Thank you, Mr. Bill. I appreciate your thoughtful answer. I will say that I disagree with you about the Kingdom. And I also disagree with you on the Old Testament prophecies. However, it is late and I must retire. I will try to continue this talk with you this weekend.

Have a nice evening.

Hi Punkin,

It is okay to disagree with me; that makes for good discussions. However, when you tell me that you disagree -- but, do not tell me why; you leave the discussion hanging.

Why do you disagree on the Kingdom answer I gave? And, what about the prophecies do you not believe?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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LMMLMMOld Faithful
Just a little info:

Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD your God: in it you shall not do any work, you, nor your son, nor your daughter, your manservant, nor your maidservant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger that is within your gates: For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Sabbath as day
For more details on this topic, see Biblical Sabbath.

The term "Sabbath" derives from the Hebrew shabbat (שבת), "to cease", which was first used in the Biblical account of the seventh day of Creation (Genesis 2:2-3). Observation and remembrance of Sabbath is one of the Ten Commandments (the fourth in the original Jewish, the Eastern Orthodox, and most Protestant traditions, the third in Roman Catholic and Lutheran traditions). Most people who observe Biblical Sabbath regard it as having been instituted as a "perpetual covenant [for] the people of Israel" (Exodus 31:13-17), a sign in respect for the day during which God rested after having completed the Creation in seven days (Exodus 20:8-11); Sabbath desecration was originally officially punishable by death (Exodus 31:15).

[edit] Sabbath as week
For more details on this topic, see Seven-day week.

By synecdoche (naming a part for the whole), the term "Sabbath" also came to mean simply a "se'nnight" or seven-day week in Jewish sources by the time of the Septuagint, namely, the interval between two Sabbaths. Jesus's parable of the Pharisee and the Publican describes the Pharisee as fasting "twice a week" (Greek dis tou sabbatou, literally, "twice of the Sabbath").

In Christianity, both those who observe the seventh day as Sabbath and those who observe the first day as Sabbath consider themselves "Sabbatarian" and regard Sabbath as "Lord's Day", each group believing its position to be taught by the Bible; similarly for others who hold to strong Sabbath principles.

[edit] First-day Sabbath
For more details on this topic, see Sabbath in Christianity.

In most Christian denominations (Roman Catholic, some Eastern Orthodox, and most Protestant), "Sabbath" is a synonym of "Lord's Day" (Sunday), which is kept in commemoration of the resurrection of Christ, and often celebrated with the Eucharist. It is often the day of rest, and usually the day of communal worship. The Lord's Day is considered both the first day and the "eighth day" of the seven-day week (or, in some calendars, Sunday is designated the seventh day of the week as also in the ISO 8601 standard). Relatively few Christians regard first-day observance as entailing all of the ordinances of Shabbat. Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon) faith [[1]] generally follow the stronger of Christian Sabbatarian traditions, avoiding shopping, leisure activities, and idleness on the first day, and avoiding work unless absolutely necessary; in Tonga, all commerce and entertainment activities cease from midnight Saturday until midnight Sunday, and the Constitution declares Sabbath to be sacred forever. Sometimes the Lord's Day is observed by those who believe Sabbath corresponds to Saturday but is obsolete. In Oriental Orthodoxy, the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church has observed both Sunday Lord's Day and Saturday Sabbath in different ways for several centuries, as have other Eastern Orthodox traditions. As another minority view, some modern Christians uphold Sabbath but do not limit its observance to either Saturday or Sunday, instead advocating rest on any chosen day of the week, or advocating Sabbath as instead a symbolic metaphor for rest in Christ.

[edit] Seventh-day Sabbath
For more details on this topic, see Sabbath in seventh-day churches.

Several Christian denominations observe Sabbath in similar manner as in Judaism, but observance ends at Saturday sunset instead of Saturday nightfall. Seventh Day Baptists have observed Sabbath on Saturday since the mid-17th century, and influenced the similar but larger Seventh-day Adventist group toward that doctrine in the mid-19th century. They and others believe that keeping seventh-day Sabbath is a moral obligation arising out of the Ten Commandments that honors God as Creator and Deliverer. They also use "Lord's Day" to mean the seventh day, based on Scriptures in which God calls it "my day" and "of the LORD". Adventists popularized the question of defining Sabbath worldwide on a round earth; some seventh-day Sabbatarians make use of the International Date Line, while others (such as some Alaskan Adventists) observe Sabbath according to Jerusalem time. Many of the Lemba in southern Africa, like some other African tribes, are Christians yet claim common descent from the Biblical Israelites, keep one day a week holy like Shabbat, and maintain many beliefs and practices associated with Judaism.
Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by Trutooit-II: Bill, if all 10 of the commandments were valid today, we'd be worshiping on Saturday. I don't. You don't unless you've just converted to 7th day adventist. Nine commandments are repeated in the NT, one isn't: remember the sabbath.

If some civilization who had never heard of the Bible found a NT, they could read it and be saved without ever reading the OT. You know that's true.

Hi Tru,

In an earlier post within this discussion, I did answer that question. It was on page 2 of this discussion. This is what I wrote earlier:

Why do we worship on Sunday, the first day of the week, in most churches today -- rather than on the Jewish Sabbath, Saturday?

The Sabbath was established when God created the heavens and the earth in six day, and on the seventh day, He rested (Genesis 2:2). Did God really get tired from all that creation work and need to rest? No. He was setting a pattern that we finite humans should follow -- work six days and take a day of rest. This was to protect our health. He set the same standard for domestic animals. And, for the fields which provide food, they are to be planted six years and then allowed to lay for one year. The Sabbath is the rest needed by all created beings and life.

The word Sabbath is from the Hebrew word "shabbath" which comes from the Hebrew root word, "shabath" which according to Strong's Concordance means, "to cease, desist, rest."

So, the Sabbath in the Old Testament was to be a day of rest -- not necessarily a day of worship.

And, in Mark 2:27-28, Jesus confirmed this when He said to the Pharisees, "The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath. So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath."

In other words, the Sabbath day, the Rest day, was made for man to rest and to recover his strength -- not made to enslave man to a "one day a week" worship. Truthfully, we should be worshipping God seven days a week; but, we meet for fellowship and corporate worship one day a week.

Mark 16:9, "Now after He had risen early on the first day of the week, He first appeared to Mary Magdalene, from whom He had cast out seven demons."

In Acts 20:7 we read of the early church, "On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul began talking to them,. . ." In other words, on the first day of the week, Sunday, they gathered for fellowship, breaking bread -- and Paul taught them -- corporate worship.

Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath; yet, He chose to rise, to be resurrected, on the first day of the week, Sunday. His resurrections is the cornerstone of Christianity. We read in 1 Corinthians 15:1-8, the Gospel: Christ died for our sins, was buried, and was raised on the third day when He appeared to over 500 believers. That is the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The anchor of that Gospel is that He Rose, He was Resurrected.

In 1 Corinthians 15:13-14 we are told, "But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised; and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain." In other words, if Christ was not resurrected -- there is no risen Savior, He would still be in the grave -- and all the teachings of Christianity would be empty words. Why do you think the atheists try so hard to invalidate the Bible? If the Bible is not the true Word of God; then what we are told in the Bible of the resurrection of Jesus Christ is not true. And, if the resurrection is not true -- there is no Christianity, there is no salvation, there is no eternal hope.

However, praise the Lord! The resurrection is true! Jesus Christ did rise from the grave; thus assuring that all men will also be resurrected: those who follow Him to eternal salvation; those who deny Him to eternal condemnation. And, Jesus Christ did ascend into heaven in His immortal, glorified body to sit at the right hand of God the Father -- where He is our Advocate, our Mediator, our Intercessor -- interceding with the Father for all believers 24/7/365. Praise God!

And, this is why we Christians place so much emphasis on worshiping Him on the day He was resurrected -- the first day of the week. He blessed it through His resurrection; we honor it in His name.

Then, you told me, "If some civilization who had never heard of the Bible found a NT, they could read it and be saved without ever reading the OT. You know that's true."

Yes, that is very true. I read the story of a man, I believe it was in China, who, as he was walking along the road, found only one page from the book of John. He picked it up and read it as he continued his walk home. That one page changed his life; for the Holy Spirit was able to work in him, bringing him to salvation in Jesus Christ. This man was able to bring his family to faith in Jesus Christ; then he began with his village. He went on to become a very successful evangelist to other villages. We should never try to limit our God and what He can do with the smallest of things.

Yet, once that person has become a Christian believer -- he needs to mature in his knowledge of God's Word. This requires a study of the full Bible.

Billy Graham, in his Crusades, and Greg Laurie in his Harvest Crusades, will not call those who come forward at the Crusade converts. They call them "inquirers" -- and try to help them connect with a local church. Billy Graham tells us that, once an inquirer is connected with a local Jesus-centered, Bible-teaching church for several years -- then, he calls them converts.

Of course we know that once a person sincerely prays and invites Jesus Christ to come into his life and into his heart -- that person is saved and is indwelt with the Holy Spirit. Yet, most would call that person a "babe in Christ" -- for he does not yet have his spiritual legs under him, in his walk with the Lord. Inviting Him in makes one a believer; prayer and study of God's Word makes one a mature believer. And, that is the goal we all should be striving toward -- to become more mature in His Word.

And, Tru, His Word is the full Bible -- Old Testament and New Testament.

Thank you for your comments.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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E Extra260Post Master
quote:
Mr. Firenze, I asked Mr. Bill Gray this very question. I asked him if he belived if Christ's Kingdom was began on the Day of Pentecost.



Punkin,
Luke 16:16

"The law and the prophets were until John, since that time the Kingdom of God has been preached and every man presseth into it."

The message of the Kingdom of God began with John's preaching.
PunkinPunkinSmall Talker
Mr. Extra, it seems that Mr. Bill sure doesn't believe that! He thinks that there are going to be TWO Kingdoms. Isn't that what he said? How is it that Mark said that Jesus told him that there were some of the Apostles who wouldn't taste death until they saw the Kingdom come with power. I guess, if we were to believe the Church of Mr. Bill, there must be some real old Apostles still here. Wonder where they are? Smiler
AS Aude SapereHall of Famer
3/4 of the Old Testament is boring laundry lists of alleged events and tribal superstition, taboo, and the most repugnant primitive theology imiginable. Thank God that the Reform Jewish movement swept so much of that baldersdash away! Now let us continue on with our own religion, that of Christ Jesus, born, teacher, prophet, Son of God, Light from Light, Perfect, Crucified and Resurrected and not worry about who we are or are not to stone, whether or not a sex act lands us in the stoning fields or eternal darnation, and certainly not about mixing fibers, plowing with a donkey and an ox or not eating a ham sammich or a dozen oysters or starting a fire after sundown Friday night, eh?

Not that Job isn't a smashing good philosophical novel or some of the Psalms pretty good, and the majesty of the Creation Story can't be beat in Jacobean cadence . . . however, the majority of it is just foolish Bronze Age xenophobia, wishful thinking and a creation of a national myth, compounded with poor copy editing on the part of the scribes in Babylon.

Sorry, I prefer the Book of John.
buffalobuffaloPost Master
quote:
Originally posted by Aude Sapere:
the majority of it is just foolish Bronze Age xenophobia, wishful thinking and a creation of a national myth, compounded with poor copy editing on the part of the scribes in Babylon.

Sorry, I prefer the Book of John.


Aude…I’m not sold on your claim to be an expert in ancient writings.
Rather than think you are that stupid I’m gonna look at it as something you just blurted out without a reckon. You are not required to believe Homer’s writings were factual.
Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by Punkin:
Mr. Extra, it seems that Mr. Bill sure doesn't believe that! He thinks that there are going to be TWO Kingdoms. Isn't that what he said? How is it that Mark said that Jesus told him that there were some of the Apostles who wouldn't taste death until they saw the Kingdom come with power. I guess, if we were to believe the Church of Mr. Bill, there must be some real old Apostles still here. Wonder where they are? Smiler

Hi Punkin,

By the time a discussion gets to 5 or 6 pages, it has become inundated with the chit-chat of our non-believing Friends who wish to side-track any serious discussion about Christianity. For that reason, I have answered you and Extra in a new discussion titled "Did The Kingdom Of God Begin With The Teachings Of John The Baptist?"

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by Aude Sapere:
3/4 of the Old Testament is boring laundry lists of alleged events and tribal superstition, taboo, and the most repugnant primitive theology imiginable. Thank God that the Reform Jewish movement swept so much of that baldersdash away! Now let us continue on with our own religion, that of Christ Jesus, born, teacher, prophet, Son of God, Light from Light, Perfect, Crucified and Resurrected and not worry about who we are or are not to stone, whether or not a sex act lands us in the stoning fields or eternal darnation, and certainly not about mixing fibers, plowing with a donkey and an ox or not eating a ham sammich or a dozen oysters or starting a fire after sundown Friday night, eh?

Not that Job isn't a smashing good philosophical novel or some of the Psalms pretty good, and the majesty of the Creation Story can't be beat in Jacobean cadence . . . however, the majority of it is just foolish Bronze Age xenophobia, wishful thinking and a creation of a national myth, compounded with poor copy editing on the part of the scribes in Babylon.

Sorry, I prefer the Book of John.

Hi Neal,

So, in your mind, the only valid Bible is the Book of John and your Book of Prayers -- plus your Traditions.

Maybe you should mention this to God -- and He can do a rewrite of all those old books He authored so many years ago.

Just think of it! You may be the new messiah who will bring in a new religion: John-Book of Prayers-Tradition!

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by CrustyMac:
Neal, Bill just proclaimed you the new Messiah! Congratulations. We'll expect the trirapturwhatever to begin immediately.

Hi Crusty,

If you would venture into a church occasionally, you would discover that there is a huge difference between a "messiah" and the Messiah.

But, I am happy that I could help you begin your education today.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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AS Aude SapereHall of Famer
Chapter One, Verse One: the Triburapture is cancelled due to being silly. v. 2: Gimme a break! We thought y'all were all smart enough to recognize a metaphor for a metaphor and not science. v. 3: Thou shalt drink tea and coffee for breakfast and not be cruel to animals, especially dogs. v. 4: Blessed are the canids for theirs are the kingdom of God. v. 5: blessed are the malters, brewers, distillers, and vintners, for they shall be seated at the right hand of the dogs alongside the sushi chefs and good bakers. v. 6: Yea, ye triburaturists and word of faithers, cursed be ye until ye get on your knees and publicly repent and stop with the distasteful televisor shows selling products and ugly cat house sets! v. 7: Blessed be the historians, editors, librarians, archivists as are St. Bruce of Asbury Park, St. Neil of the Crazy Horse and St. Bob of The Band. v. 8: Be ye not foolish like the Mormen and refuse to take thy tea and coffee of a morning and throughout the day, for as the prophet saith, "Take a bit of caffeine for thy stomach's sake and that jolt preparing one for a hard day of dog walking and reading."

Written after the spirit of the blessed twin "ines," caff and nico had overcome me with their wonderful morning blessings. We pray ye all take of a hearty Southern breakfast, cigarettes and coffee and tea, as hath the prophets who came before you, Blessed Molly and Ann of Texas.
Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
Hi all,

Often, Forum Friends have asked why I leave an aging discussion to begin a new one. Well, this is a perfect example of why I do this.

Given any relatively intelligent discussion -- it takes only a few forum pages for the atheists, secularist, agnostics (?), and our one self appointed Liberal Anti-Bible Forum Friend -- to bring in inane, silly comments just to hijack the discussion.

So, when the children begin to play and make their mud pies -- I just go elsewhere and share the Truth.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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AS Aude SapereHall of Famer
It is no more silly than teaching the earth is 6000 years old, that God has a magic tractor beam to whiff those who said the magic word off to avoid the Antichrist and his minions, that it was meet and right for the alleged "pure" Israelites to massacre their "impure" neighbors and former cousins over a piece of land not worth having in the first place, that a man lived in the giant belly of a huge fish for three days and nights, or that a talking snake sweet talked a chick and she convinced her husband and herself to eat a piece of fruit and so the golden age was ended.

What is not silly: The Beatitudes, the Lord's Prayer, the example of Our Lord in turning the other cheek and yielding not to temptation -- being faithful even unto death, publicly confessing one's faith, one's belief in the birth of God's Son by the Blessed Virgin Mary and becoming flesh, bore our sins for us, teaching us the way of Heaven's Desire, and rising into Heaven after resurrecting from the dead after two evenings buried and then coming in the future at an unknown date to judge the living and the dead and whose kingdom shall have no end, as it exist now in our faith and shall be perfected in Paridise. That is not silly, that is the orthodox faith and no amount of ancient Proto-Hebrew superstition, tribal taboo or uninformed pseudoscience can undo it.

You can take all the crazed frentic holy rollers and tribulators, rapturators, and snake handlers and they as a group lack the simple common faith of an illiterate peasant from the Middele Ages. Not content with being just one out of many, these people, alleged clergy and preachers and theologians add and subtract from the Gospel as it suits them, calling it God's Word as recently revealed in fullness and truth, making themselves bigger fishes in a smaller group of ponds and frequently enriching not only their egos but their pocketbooks as well.
Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by Aude Sapere:
It is no more silly than teaching the earth is 6000 years old, that God has a magic tractor beam to whiff those who said the magic word off to avoid the Antichrist and his minions, that it was meet and right for the alleged "pure" Israelites to massacre their "impure" neighbors and former cousins over a piece of land not worth having in the first place, that a man lived in the giant belly of a huge fish for three days and nights, or that a talking snake sweet talked a chick and she convinced her husband and herself to eat a piece of fruit and so the golden age was ended.

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Max KusterMax KusterHall of Famer
What I find amusing is that our very own Pharisee, seems to be somewhat rattled by all the jokes his posts are creating. I came on the forums to engage in some intellectual discussions about religious themes and beliefs, and with the exception of him, have gotten some satisfactory results! What I did not expect, was this guy who acts like an itenerate tent revival preacher, strutting his stuff on the stage. Yes, Praise God, there he is! Handling snakes and drinking strychnine and talking about the Rapture, Lord let it be, which is just around the corner!

He hasn't replied to me in a while. I at first tried to show his pronouncements respect. Asked some pointed questions and then, the Lord knows it is true, Praise God, according to him, I became anti-Christian.

I'm not anti-anything. The Pharisee is, of course against anyone who does not belong to a Holy Roller Christian church, or is a Jew, a Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist... well you get the picture.

So much for intellectual arguments with Pharisees.
CrustyMacCrustyMacOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by CrustyMac:
Neal, Bill just proclaimed you the new Messiah! Congratulations. We'll expect the trirapturwhatever to begin immediately.

Hi Crusty,

If you would venture into a church occasionally, you would discover that there is a huge difference between a "messiah" and the Messiah.

But, I am happy that I could help you begin your education today.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill


Sorry, Bill. You had me convinced that you are omniscient, so I just assumed you were God. Isn't that how you see yourself? Roll Eyes

Oh, here, just for you....

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outspokenjerkoutspokenjerkHall of Famer
quote:
Originally posted by davidnmiles:
quote:
All that will be left will be non-believers running the world --


The sooner the better. What a wonderful place the world will be without ignorance.


But yet, if I call someone a name I am being hateful. No, I am calling it as I see it. Dave, you are a Grade-A jerk jack***. I understand and respect everyone's beliefs, but you, you piece of work, you are stepping over the line. Society says if a Christian tells you you are going to hell, or even tries to share their faith,, it's intolerant and it's "hate speech". But it's okay for some idiot to attack my beliefs? No, it's not. I really pray you change your heart but if not, I hope I am behind you in line.
Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by CrustyMac:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by CrustyMac:
Neal, Bill just proclaimed you the new Messiah! Congratulations. We'll expect the trirapturwhatever to begin immediately.

Hi Crusty,

If you would venture into a church occasionally, you would discover that there is a huge difference between a "messiah" and the Messiah.

But, I am happy that I could help you begin your education today.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Sorry, Bill. You had me convinced that you are omniscient, so I just assumed you were God. Isn't that how you see yourself?

Oh, here, just for you....

Hi Crusty,

I am confused. You love to imitate me; why do I never see you using this graphic? Does it scare you?

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AS Aude SapereHall of Famer
Didn't a very wise man, one Yeshua bar Yusef once clam that "The Kingdom of God is within you."? I think it was about
AD 30 or so when he said it, most likely in Aramaic, of course.

We have someone who once mingled with psychics, faith healers, and now has grown his bounds to a more respectable sort of hokum, namely Tribulation and its uglier step sister, Rapturation. He claimed to be able to decline the word "Akbar" in all its nuances once yet dropped it like a hot potato. He touted Dr. Dino until finding out he was in the federal pen. He touted Tom Paine until he found out he had written "Age of Reason, Parts I and II" and what will he drop next when exposed as a well intentioned coot at best and a noxious blithering babbling badger most likely?

Relatively harmless, of course, as are most of the eccentrics let out of their attics and workshops and labs by their families and mental health authorities have deemed them most probably not a harm to themselves or others.

However, while Jimmy Stewart's family may have enjoyed playing along with the six foot rabbit in the movie, I am sure it did become occasionally tiresome, as well as annoying in having to explain his actions to those not accustomed to such people. I, and several others, are too tired to argue about the six foot rabbit who talks, the snake who did or the man in the fish's belly for 3 days with not a whit the worse for wear and tear, not even from gastric juices.

Just keep the guns loaded with blanks and knives dulled and the family and strangers ought to be fine should the Y 6Kers get loose.
CrustyMacCrustyMacOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by outspokenjerk:
quote:
Originally posted by davidnmiles:
quote:
All that will be left will be non-believers running the world --


The sooner the better. What a wonderful place the world will be without ignorance.


But yet, if I call someone a name I am being hateful. No, I am calling it as I see it. Dave, you are a Grade-A jerk jack***. I understand and respect everyone's beliefs, but you, you piece of work, you are stepping over the line. Society says if a Christian tells you you are going to hell, or even tries to share their faith,, it's intolerant and it's "hate speech". But it's okay for some idiot to attack my beliefs? No, it's not. I really pray you change your heart but if not, I hope I am behind you in line.


Outspoken like a Good Christian.
CrustyMacCrustyMacOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by CrustyMac:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by CrustyMac:
Neal, Bill just proclaimed you the new Messiah! Congratulations. We'll expect the trirapturwhatever to begin immediately.

Hi Crusty,

If you would venture into a church occasionally, you would discover that there is a huge difference between a "messiah" and the Messiah.

But, I am happy that I could help you begin your education today.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Sorry, Bill. You had me convinced that you are omniscient, so I just assumed you were God. Isn't that how you see yourself?

Oh, here, just for you....

Hi Crusty,

I am confused. You love to imitate me; why do I never see you using this graphic? Does it scare you?


You are what scares me, Bill. I'm not imitating you, just trying to show you how ridiculous your graphics are to those of us on the receiving end. I have more respect for the Bible and Holy Symbols than to use them to beat someone over the head with them.
outspokenjerkoutspokenjerkHall of Famer
quote:
Originally posted by CrustyMac:
quote:
Originally posted by outspokenjerk:
quote:
Originally posted by davidnmiles:
quote:
All that will be left will be non-believers running the world --


The sooner the better. What a wonderful place the world will be without ignorance.


But yet, if I call someone a name I am being hateful. No, I am calling it as I see it. Dave, you are a Grade-A jerk jack***. I understand and respect everyone's beliefs, but you, you piece of work, you are stepping over the line. Society says if a Christian tells you you are going to hell, or even tries to share their faith,, it's intolerant and it's "hate speech". But it's okay for some idiot to attack my beliefs? No, it's not. I really pray you change your heart but if not, I hope I am behind you in line.


Outspoken like a Good Christian.


Don't give me that "good Christian" bull crap.
I just recently had to say this in another post. Even Jesus called the pharisees a "brood of vipers", which is a pretty bad name during that time. He also called them "hypocrites" and "sons of the devil". He didn't sin by saying that. He called them as they were. I have not sinned in what I have said. I am simply calling him as he is acting.
AS Aude SapereHall of Famer
I never claimed "Christian brotherhood" alone, I claim universal brotherhood for all men and in all places and at all times. That is why I detest the "God ordained" slaughter alleged to have occured at the hands of the Proto-Hebrews by allegedly God's command through Joshua and Moses. This is clearly NOT the God of universal love and kindness as revealed in the New Testament, but a semipagan parody of the concept, desiring the blood of bulls and sheep and goats and doves to take away sin for a short while to allow people to kill their neighbors or gain wealth.

The early books of the Old Testament are repugnant to any standard of civilized behavior, common sense and most traditions other than a desert tribal blood lust taboo culture.

What inspiration might have been in the oral stories have long been lost with chauvinism, duplicity, and idiocy through the biases of the compilers in Babylon 2500 years ago.

The Old Testament only begins to have any systematic theology once contact with the advanced Persian Zoroastarians is made. It is fair to say, bluntly, that the majority of the first books are no more majestic
than a catalogue of Hammurabi's victories and laws set into narrative form: utterly lacking in produndity beyond that of any common myth and often not even to the level of the Indo-Persians at the same time period of original oral composition.

Sorry, I have been a-reading Tom Paine again.
Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
Hi Jan,

You ask, "Bill, What are your thoughts on the Church Of Christ? I was raised strict COC and a lot of what you say sounds like the things I was taught. What denomination do you associate with?"

In 1987, I was saved in a Baptist church which is affiliated with the BGC (Baptist General Conference). Over the years I have been mostly in BGC churches; but, for a couple of years I was in a new church that was affiliated with the Southern Baptist. And, the new church plant I am with now is affiliated with the Southern Baptist -- only because the pastor we asked to help us plant the church comes from the SBC.

However, if anyone asks me what I am -- I will always reply that I am a Christian -- period. If they push and insist upon knowing anything further; I will tell them I am a Baptist-flavored Christian. Why do I say it this way? Because my Christian faith is based upon the Bible, not a denomination. Yet, I say I am a Baptist-flavored Christian because my personal Biblical Doctrinal Beliefs align very well with the Baptist Doctrinal Beliefs.

You ask about the Church of Christ:

While I realize that the are different flavors of churches within the Church of Christ family; they do share a number of beliefs. To get a flavor of the ones in the Shoals area, I searched the Church of Christ directory. The only one in the Shoals are which had their own web site is Petersville Church of Christ - Florence http://www.charityadvantage.co..._ChriOMGQMH/Home.asp

They have many beliefs which I share. Basically, I agree with them on the Essential Biblical Doctrines or Beliefs. I also like the fact that most CofC follows the Biblical teaching of elders and deacons. I have never been comfortable with the Southern Baptist practice of having only deacons.

And, I agree completely with the CofC statement: Salvation is God’s free gift to us but we must accept it.

Where I disagree with the CofC is on their teaching of (1) Baptism a requirement of salvation, and (2) No musical instruments in their music worship. However, these are minor differences and would certainly not be divisive.

The one area where I really disagree with them will be on eschatology. I hold a strong PreTribulation (the rapture will occur before the Tribulation), Premillennial (Tribulation occurs and Christ returns, and then establishi His Millennial Kingdom on earth) belief based upon the Bible. I believe the Bible teaches this -- and, I can show this through Scripture.

According to this article in Wikipedia, most CofC churches hold to the Amillennial belief, i.e., that we are living in the Millennium now -- and the world will continue to get more and more righteous; then Christ will return and take believers into eternity. There are several problems with this teaching. First, if the church age represents the Millennium -- then, we are in the Second Millennium. This is the year 2009 -- two Millenniums plus 9 years. Second, the world very obviously is not getting more righteous; instead apostasy is growing around the world. Third, Scripture does not support this belief.

Churches of Christ
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C...es_of_Christ#Beliefs

Regarding eschatology (a branch of theology concerned with the final events in the history of the world or of humankind), Churches of Christ are generally amillennial, their originally prevalent postmillennialism (evident in Alexander Campbell's Millennial Harbinger) having dissipated around the era of the First World War. Before then, many leaders were "moderate historical premillennialists" who did not, however, advocate specific historical interpretations. Churches of Christ have moved away from premillennialism as dispensational millennialism has come more to fore in Protestant evangelical circles.[14]:219[58] Amillennialism and postmillennialism are the prevailing views today.

However, although my beliefs do not align perfectly with the CofC teachings; they are still my brothers and sisters in Christ; they are not cult churches.

Max, you tell us, "Jank, Max here.. I know that this question isn't for me, but as I understand it, the church of Christ, believes that God's Kingdom was established on the Day of Pentecost, 33 A.D. I believe that Bill is what they call a 'pre-millenialist', one who is waiting on the Rapture, the Tribulation, and then everybody going up into the sky to be with God and Christ in a Kingdom with a thousand year reign. After that, time ceases, and as they say in television-land, everything is taken to black. Isn't that right? Maybe I am not remembering it right."

Yes, even though the CofC churches are autonomous; there is a large faction within the Churches of Christ who do believe that we should go back to the practice of worship found in the early first century Christian church. I agree with that. Do away with denominationalism and let us all be just one Christian church. I realize that will never happen; but, it would be nice.

Do they teach that God's Kingdom was established on the Day of Pentecost? No, I believe they teach that the church, the Christian church, begun with the apostles and disciples of Jesus Christ -- began on the day. That was the beginning of the Church Era which will end when Jesus Christ comes to rapture His church and take us into heaven -- where we will experience the Bema Seat Judgment and then, we will be the Bride at the Wedding Feast of the Lamb. You can read about that in Revelation 19.

But, Max, either you are being facetious -- or you have your eschatology confused.

What I believe and what the Bible teaches is that: The return of Jesus Christ in the clouds to rapture, snatch away, His church is imminent; meaning that it could happen at any moment -- or it might not happen for years. This is what Jesus was talking about in Mark 9:1 and in the passage in Matthew.

After the rapture occurs, Israel will sign a seven year peace accord with the Antichrist (you will find this in Daniel 9). This may happen very shortly, i.e, hours or days, after the rapture -- or it may be some months. But, it will occur relatively soon after the rapture. The signing of this peace accord will start the Tribulation clock ticking.

While we do not know when the rapture will occur; we know exactly when the Second Coming of Jesus Christ will occur. That will be exactly seven years after the beginning of the Tribulation.

When Christ returns, a series of events will occur: the Battle of Armageddon (Revelation 16 and 19), Judgment of Israelites (Ezekiel 20:32-38), Sheep and Goat Judgment of the Gentile Nations (Matthew 25:31-46), the Antichrist and his False Prophet will be thrown into the Lake of Fire (Revelation 19:20), and Satan will be locked in the abyss for 1000 years (Revelation 20:1-3).

Then Jesus Christ will establish His Millennial Kingdom which He will rule, the perfect theocracy, from the throne of David in Jerusalem.

At the end of the Millennial Kingdom; the New Heaven and the New Earth will be created and the New Jerusalem will come down from heaven and reside above the New Earth. You can read about this in Revelation 21.

And, then Christ will escort all of His believers into eternity.

Max, you say, "After that, time ceases, and as they say in television-land, everything is taken to black."

No, at that time is when we Christian believers will truly begin to live. No taken to blackness -- instead, basking in the eternal Sonshine.

Last year the wife of a pastor friend died unexpectedly. After the memorial service, we all went to restaurant to celebrate her homegoing. After the meal, we all gathered in one section of the restaurant to share memories and testimonies of her life. During the sharing, one lady commented, "When Anita was alive. . ."

I told her, "Anita is more alive today than she ever was on this earth. Today, she is with her Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ -- and they are sharing fellowship. How could she be more alive than that?"

And, her husband, Pastor Mariano agreed.

Max, I encourage you to get into a good Bible study conducted by a Christ-centered church. If you do, you will find that the Pretribulation Premillennial views of eschatology are fully supported in Scripture.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by Aude Sapere:
I never claimed "Christian brotherhood" alone, I claim universal brotherhood for all men and in all places and at all times. That is why I detest the "God ordained" slaughter alleged to have occured at the hands of the Proto-Hebrews by allegedly God's command through Joshua and Moses. This is clearly NOT the God of universal love and kindness as revealed in the New Testament, but a semipagan parody of the concept, desiring the blood of bulls and sheep and goats and doves to take away sin for a short while to allow people to kill their neighbors or gain wealth.

The early books of the Old Testament are repugnant to any standard of civilized behavior, common sense and most traditions other than a desert tribal blood lust taboo culture.

What inspiration might have been in the oral stories have long been lost with chauvinism, duplicity, and idiocy through the biases of the compilers in Babylon 2500 years ago.

The Old Testament only begins to have any systematic theology once contact with the advanced Persian Zoroastarians is made. It is fair to say, bluntly, that the majority of the first books are no more majestic
than a catalogue of Hammurabi's victories and laws set into narrative form: utterly lacking in produndity beyond that of any common myth and often not even to the level of the Indo-Persians at the same time period of original oral composition.

Sorry, I have been a-reading Tom Paine again.

Hi Neal,

Sorry, my Friend, but one cannot pick and choose which part of God's Word he will accept. Either you accept God and His Written Word -- or you reject both.

Are you saying that you reject both?

Keep in mind that the God of the Old Testament -- is the same God of the New Testament. So, if you reject part of Him; you reject all of Him.

Maybe you should lay aside your Book of Traditions and your Prayer Book -- and give God's Book more thought.

Just a thought.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Max KusterMax KusterHall of Famer
Thank you for the charts, Bill. As you said, different churches of Christ hold to their own individual doctrines. Your explanation of pre-millenialism and what certain people believe varies somewhat from what I heard, however, let's just leave it be for a while. Another fundamental difference between CofC and Baptists is that Baptists believe in the impossibility of apostasy, 'once saved, always saved'. The CofC teaches the opposite in most congregations, from what I have learned after speaking to many members about this.
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