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Op-Ed Columnist

Our Lefty Military

By NICHOLAS D. KRISTOF

Published: June 15, 2011

 

As we search for paths out of America’s economic crisis, many suggest business as a paradigm for cutting costs. According to my back-of-the-envelope math, top C.E.O.’s earn as much as $1 a second around the clock, partly by cutting medical benefits for employees. So they must be paragons of efficiency, right?

 

Actually, I’m not so sure. The business sectoris dazzlingly productive, but it also periodically blows up our financial system.Yet if we seek another model, one that emphasizes universal health care and educational opportunity, one that seeks to curb income inequality, we don’t have to turn to Sweden. Rather, look to the United States military.

 

You see, when our armed forces are not firing missiles, they live by an astonishingly liberal ethos— and it works. The military helped lead the way in racial desegregation, and even today it does more to provide equal opportunity to working-class families — especially to blacks — than just about any social program. It has been an escalator of social mobility in American society because it investsin soldiers and gives them skills and opportunities.

 

The United States armed forces knit together whites, blacks, Asians and Hispanics from diverse backgrounds, invests in their education and training, provides them with excellent health care and child care. And it does all this with minimal income gaps: A senior general earns about 10 times what a private makes, while, by my calculation, C.E.O.’s at major companies earn about 300 times as much as those cleaning their offices. That’s right: the military ethos can sound pretty lefty.

 

It’s the purest application of socialism there is,”Wesley Clark, the retired four-star general and former supreme allied commander of NATO forces in Europe, told me. And he was only partly joking.

 

The military is innately hierarchical, yet it nurtures a camaraderie in part because the military looks after its employees. This is a rare enclave of single-payer universal health care, and it continues with a veterans’ health care system that has much lower costs than the American system as a whole.

So as the United States armed forces try to pull Iraqi and Afghan societies into the 21st century, maybe they could do the same for America’s.

Hoo-ah!

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/16/opinion/16kristof.html?_r=1&nl=todaysheadlines&emc=tha212

Original Post

Replies sorted oldest to newest

Originally Posted by Blind Melon Chit'lin:

Nope. It's not.

Answer your question?

 

------------ 

You're not the expert in this matter. Someone with more authority to speak than you would beg to differ.

It’s the purest application of socialism there is,”Wesley Clark, the retired four-star general and former supreme allied commander of NATO forces in Europe, told me.

 

 


 

As you admitted when you adopted the name, Propagandist, you would lie to sell any of your posts.  I state this as an opening to my repost.

 

Wasn't it the left that complained, as I did, about the lack of medical services at some VA hospitals?  Sign up for a few years of military service, experience their medical care first hand.  Then, get back to me!  Some of the care is first rate, some isn't.  Suggest you look into the care for dependents.  Its not a single payer system, despite your claims.

 

 

Originally Posted by interventor1212:

As you admitted when you adopted the name, Propagandist, you would lie to sell any of your posts.  I state this as an opening to my repost.

 

 

I didn't make this stuff up. A retired four-star general and former supreme allied commander of NATO made that statement, which was reprinted in the New York Times. It is there for all the world to see -- except for "him who will not see."

 

Is that your definition of a lie? If so, your opinion isn't worth listening to because you are definitely out of touch with reality.

Originally Posted by The Propagandist:
Originally Posted by Blind Melon Chit'lin:

Nope. It's not.

Answer your question?

 

------------ 

You're not the expert in this matter. Someone with more authority to speak than you would beg to differ.

It’s the purest application of socialism there is,”Wesley Clark, the retired four-star general and former supreme allied commander of NATO forces in Europe, told me.

 

 


 

I don't believe Clark could be considered the expert. 

Originally Posted by Blind Melon Chit'lin:
Originally Posted by The Propagandist:
Originally Posted by Blind Melon Chit'lin:

Nope. It's not.

Answer your question?

 

------------ 

You're not the expert in this matter. Someone with more authority to speak than you would beg to differ.

It’s the purest application of socialism there is,”Wesley Clark, the retired four-star general and former supreme allied commander of NATO forces in Europe, told me.

 

 


 

I don't believe Clark could be considered the expert. 


Oh, did you outrank Gen. Clark, giving you more authority to speak?

 Forgive me for not recognizing you, Mr. President.

Related comments:

 

"The military makes all that equality and fairness work by eliminating debate and simply governing by dictate. Orders are orders, and that's that. Let's see you get that to work in civilian society.
The military is not concerned with achieving economic growth. In fact, it's not economically sustainable -- that's (at least partly) why we have to keep pumping money into it every year."

 

"The glaring contradiction in this article is that those in the military CHOOSE to enter the military. As a libertarian, I find nothing at all disagreeable about a group of people going off by themselves and voluntarily living a socialist lifestyle, in fact I believe for many people this would work very well, the military being a fantastic example. What I have a serious problem with is foisting socialist living on everyone using force (the government), which seems to be the thrust of this article. As the traveled and cultivated Mr.Kristof knows, everyone is different, what works wonders for some would be a disaster for others, so why get the government involved? If people want to arrange themselves in a socialist fashion there is nothing stopping them from doing so in a voluntary non-violent manner.
Also, it's time to bring those socialists home"

 

 

"The military could be considered more Communist than Socialist, since it is also a dictatorship. Of course, it is not an "independent" Communist society, since it depends on a democratic and capitalist society to pay the bills and chose the leaders, who then have quasi-dictatorial powers."

 

"Its not a apples to apples comparison. Military is a government institution not a money making world wide competitive venture that a corporation is. It is paid for with taxes. Military does not generate wealth for society..its a necessary cost center like most of government. It doesn't pay for itself let alone other government costs as profitable private companies do"

 

"The military is an oxymoron of efficiency in almost everything it does. They invest millions in training and then dismiss people before they can qualify for promotions and rank longevity. They routinely reassign folk without a care in the world as to the appropriateness or need. The harm they inflict on military family life is certainly no example. And aftercare when the soldier has given his all is severely lacking more likely to result in a slap than therapy. Please do not hold up this system as anything but a brutal example of how not to do things"

 

 

..

Originally Posted by interventor1212:

Socialist are but one step from communists.  Propagandists, I work around the military daily and served myself.  They would laugh at you snide little remark, then ignore you.

 

What's you military experience?

-----------

That "snide little remark" did not originate with me. I expressed surprise at the remarks of another poster.

 

 

Blind Melon Chit'lin         

Yesterday at 11:20 AM

 "The military could be considered more Communist than Socialist, since it is also a dictatorship. 

 

 

You see, those were not my words. But my comment was in reference to those words.

Originally Posted by The Propagandist:
Originally Posted by interventor1212:

Socialist are but one step from communists.  Propagandists, I work around the military daily and served myself.  They would laugh at you snide little remark, then ignore you.

 

What's you military experience?

-----------

That "snide little remark" did not originate with me. I expressed surprise at the remarks of another poster.

 

 

Blind Melon Chit'lin         

Yesterday at 11:20 AM

 "The military could be considered more Communist than Socialist, since it is also a dictatorship. 

 

 

You see, those were not my words. But my comment was in reference to those words.

 

 

 

You sure got the right name. Now, would you like to quote the rest, as in reference to the "structure" of the military, or continue, as usual is you case, to distort and insert your own..."propaganda"?

 

You should probably stick to you usual "playground"  with your flock of beaming followers easily wowed by your " intellect". You have been "exposed" here.

Originally Posted by Mr.Dittohead:

Socialist.  The subject is socialists.  Not communists.

 

so·cial·ism  
 
so·cial·ism [sṓshə lìzəm]

or So·cial·ism [sṓshə lìzəm]

n
1.political system of communal ownership: a political theory or system in which the means of production and distribution are controlled by the people and operated according to equity and fairness rather than market principles
2.movement based on socialism: a political movement based on principles of socialism, typically advocating an end to private property and to the exploitation of workers
3.stage between capitalism and communism: in Marxist theory, the stage after the proletarian revolution when a society is changing from capitalism to communism, marked by pay distributed according to work done rather than need

Yes Ditto, the subject is communists.

George Orwell described the progression best in his book Animal Farm.

Give it a read why don't you.

 

Skippy

 

Originally Posted by The Propagandist:
Originally Posted by interventor1212:

Socialist are but one step from communists.  Propagandists, I work around the military daily and served myself.  They would laugh at you snide little remark, then ignore you.

 

What's you military experience?

-----------

That "snide little remark" did not originate with me. I expressed surprise at the remarks of another poster.

 

 

Blind Melon Chit'lin         

Yesterday at 11:20 AM

 "The military could be considered more Communist than Socialist, since it is also a dictatorship. 

 

 

You see, those were not my words. But my comment was in reference to those words.


Prop,

I stand corrected on that comment. I misinterpreted your statement.

Originally Posted by Blind Melon Chit'lin:
Originally Posted by The Propagandist:
Originally Posted by interventor1212:

Socialist are but one step from communists.  Propagandists, I work around the military daily and served myself.  They would laugh at you snide little remark, then ignore you.

 

What's you military experience?

-----------

That "snide little remark" did not originate with me. I expressed surprise at the remarks of another poster.

 

 

Blind Melon Chit'lin         

Yesterday at 11:20 AM

 "The military could be considered more Communist than Socialist, since it is also a dictatorship. 

 

 

You see, those were not my words. But my comment was in reference to those words.

 

 

 

You sure got the right name. Now, would you like to quote the rest, as in reference to the "structure" of the military, or continue, as usual is you case, to distort and insert your own..."propaganda"?

 

You should probably stick to you usual "playground"  with your flock of beaming followers easily wowed by your " intellect". You have been "exposed" here.

-----------

If anybody wants to read the rest of it, they can go back where I got that bit and read it for themselves.

Originally Posted by interventor1212:
Originally Posted by The Propagandist:
Originally Posted by interventor1212:

Socialist are but one step from communists.  Propagandists, I work around the military daily and served myself.  They would laugh at you snide little remark, then ignore you.

 

What's you military experience?

-----------

That "snide little remark" did not originate with me. I expressed surprise at the remarks of another poster.

 

 

Blind Melon Chit'lin         

Yesterday at 11:20 AM

 "The military could be considered more Communist than Socialist, since it is also a dictatorship. 

 

 

You see, those were not my words. But my comment was in reference to those words.


Prop,

I stand corrected on that comment. I misinterpreted your statement.


--------

I didn't make clear the source of that statement. I can see how somebody could mistake it for being mine.

Originally Posted by skippy delepepper:
Originally Posted by Mr.Dittohead:

Socialist.  The subject is socialists.  Not communists.

 

so·cial·ism  
 
so·cial·ism [sṓshə lìzəm]

or So·cial·ism [sṓshə lìzəm]

n
1.political system of communal ownership: a political theory or system in which the means of production and distribution are controlled by the people and operated according to equity and fairness rather than market principles
2.movement based on socialism: a political movement based on principles of socialism, typically advocating an end to private property and to the exploitation of workers
3.stage between capitalism and communism: in Marxist theory, the stage after the proletarian revolution when a society is changing from capitalism to communism, marked by pay distributed according to work done rather than need

Yes Ditto, the subject is communists.

George Orwell described the progression best in his book Animal Farm.

Give it a read why don't you.

 

Skippy

 

---------

Gen. Wesley Clark did not say the first word about communism. The subject is indeed socialism. Go back to the first person that mentioned communism and ask them why they brought it up ---right out of the blue. I'll give you a hint to help find it: Think fried pig guts.

 

 

Originally Posted by Blind Melon Chit'lin:
 

    

You sure got the right name. Now, would you like to quote the rest, as in reference to the "structure" of the military, or continue, as usual is you case, to distort and insert your own..."propaganda"?

 

You should probably stick to you usual "playground"  with your flock of beaming followers easily wowed by your " intellect". You have been "exposed" here.

-------------

I realize it's hard for you to keep up with my "intellect." But for us to have any kind of intelligent conversation, you have to try!

Last edited by The Propagandist
Originally Posted by The Propagandist:
Originally Posted by Blind Melon Chit'lin:
 

    

You sure got the right name. Now, would you like to quote the rest, as in reference to the "structure" of the military, or continue, as usual is you case, to distort and insert your own..."propaganda"?

 

You should probably stick to you usual "playground"  with your flock of beaming followers easily wowed by your " intellect". You have been "exposed" here.

-------------

I realize it's hard for you to keep up with my "intellect." But for us to have any kind of intelligent conversation, you have to try!

 

 

I don't think there is any conversation that you could offer that would be deemed "intelligent" at this point.

When / if you ever tilt just a little toward center from you extreme left leaning, and actually get in touch with reality, we MIGHT can discuss.

Originally Posted by The Propagandist:
Originally Posted by skippy delepepper:
Originally Posted by Mr.Dittohead:

Socialist.  The subject is socialists.  Not communists.

 

so·cial·ism  
 
so·cial·ism [sṓshə lìzəm]

or So·cial·ism [sṓshə lìzəm]

n
1.political system of communal ownership: a political theory or system in which the means of production and distribution are controlled by the people and operated according to equity and fairness rather than market principles
2.movement based on socialism: a political movement based on principles of socialism, typically advocating an end to private property and to the exploitation of workers
3.stage between capitalism and communism: in Marxist theory, the stage after the proletarian revolution when a society is changing from capitalism to communism, marked by pay distributed according to work done rather than need

Yes Ditto, the subject is communists.

George Orwell described the progression best in his book Animal Farm.

Give it a read why don't you.

 

Skippy

 

---------

Gen. Wesley Clark did not say the first word about communism. The subject is indeed socialism. Go back to the first person that mentioned communism and ask them why they brought it up ---right out of the blue. I'll give you a hint to help find it: Think fried pig guts.

 

 

Your missing the whole point.

Socialism is the predecessor to Communism.

Look up. ^ ^ ^

Skippy

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