Hi to all my Forum Friends,
In the Religion Forum discussion I began titled "Tell Me More About The Rapture!" a Christian Friend who appears to be of the Post-Millennial or Amillennial persuasion tells me:
Since the Scriptures do not contemplate any of the various Rapture scenarios that Bill describes, it is easy to see how there have come to be so many conflicting versions of that event.
Reviewing my initial post in the "Tell Me More About The Rapture!" discussion, I offered these five views of the Rapture:
(1) Never happen! The Rapture is only a fantasy, a myth propagated by Evangelicals and Fundamentalists.
(2) Mid-Tribulation Rapture: Christ will rapture His church; but, not until the middle of the seven year Tribulation.
(3) Pre-Wrath Rapture: Christ will rapture His church; but, not until three fourths of the way through the seven year Tribulation.
(4) Post-Tribulation Rapture: Christ will Rapture His church at the end of the Tribulation.
(5) Pre-Tribulation Rapture: Finally, a Rapture view which makes sense and is Biblical. Christ will keep His church from the wrath (Rev 3:10, 1 Thess 5:9).
In those five views, to the best of my knowledge, I have offered every possible Rapture scenario. "(1) Never happen!" seems to cover all the non-believers' views as well as the Post-Millennial and Amillennial views -- that there will be NO Rapture. Other than that, I have covered the PreTrib, PostTrib, MidTrib, and Pre-Wrath views of the Rapture.
My Friend, if you know of another Rapture view, please share it with us.
In that same post my Friend adds:
The most decisive refutation of all of that "Pre-Tribulation" fiction is to be found in John 5:28-29:
John 5:26-29 (nkjv), "For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in whichall who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth -- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation."
So, let's examine the points you seem to be highlighting, but let's expand it a wee bit:
John 5:25 (nkjv), "Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live."
What does the apostle John mean when he tells us "the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live."?
He is not speaking, in this verse, of the physically dead but rather of the spiritually dead, of those who are dead in trespasses and sins. This is true of all men out of Christ, all men who are in Adam by natural generation. Death passed upon all men when Adam sinned. As God looks down upon the race today He sees it as a race of men and women dead to Himself and everything spiritual, and alive to what men call pleasure, alive to their own personal affairs, but with not one pulse-beat toward God -- everyone dead and utterly helpless, for, of course, a dead man cannot do anything to change his condition. He cannot help himself, and if those dead in trespasses and sin are to live, they must receive life through Another, even our Lord Himself. ("Addresses On The Gospel Of John," by H. A. Ironside, Litt. D, page 200 ff, www.plymouthbrethren.org/article/5574), (also, "Ironside's Notes on Selected Books - John 5" - www.studylight.org/commentarie...w.cgi?bk=42&ch=5)
And,
If we are in the period of the “hour that is coming” -- then what does He mean that it also “now is”? Who are the dead who hear His voice now? . . . Does this mean the person that is in the grave hears? No, no, this is referring to spiritual death! Death means separation from God. The hour is coming when those who are in the grave shall hear His voice and shall live, but the hour is now when those who are spiritually dead hear His voice and live. Paul wrote to the Ephesian believers that they had been dead in trespasses and sins. That is the spiritual condition of everyone. But then, “he that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death [out of spiritual death] unto life” -- the life that He gives.
So in verses 25 and 28 He is talking about two separate things. The time is now when Christ gives spiritual life. The hour is coming when He will raise the dead out of the grave. ("John – Part 1" - Thru the Bible Radio With Dr. J. Vernon McGee, webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:8V9ivgc-UTkJ:ttb.smithsk.com/TTB_John_1_2012.doc+&cd=6&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us)
Let's look at the rest of that John 5 Scripture passage:
John 5:26-27(nkjv), "For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man."
What is this Scripture passage telling us?
Here the Messianic claims of Jesus stand out most clearly. He is the Son of Man; he is the life-giver and the life-bringer; he will raise the dead to life and, when they are raised, he win be their judge. In this passage (John 5:25-29) John seems to use the word dead in two senses.
(i) He uses it of those who are spiritually dead; to them Jesus will bring new life.
(ii) John also uses the word dead literally. Jesus teaches that the resurrection will come and that what happens to a man in the after-life is inextricably bound up with what he has done in this life. The awful importance of this life is that it determines eternity. (The Gospel of John - Volume 1, (Chapters 1 to 7), Revised Edition, page 192 - by William Barclay)
Now, we get to the heart of my Forum Friend's disagreement -- his proof text (John 5:28-29) for his "No Rapture" position and his belief that all people, believers and non-believers, will be resurrected together and will stand before Christ at the Great White Throne Judgment (Revelation 20:11-15).
John 5:28-29(nkjv), "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth -- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation."
Will there be only one judgment, the Great White Throne Judgment (Post-Millennial and Amillennial views)? That view places the Second Coming of Jesus Christ after the Millennium (Revelation 20) and just before God creates the New Heaven, New Earth, and New Jerusalem (Revelation 21) and takes all believers into eternity? Or, will there be two separate judgments -- one for all believers, and another for all non-believers.
There must be two separate judgments. Why? We see the Wedding Feast of the Lamb in Revelation 19:6-9 where Christ takes His Bride, the church, to be His eternal Bride. That Wedding Feast cannot take place if the Bride has not prepared herself -- cleansed and wearing a beautiful fine linen wedding gown. No bride, especially the Bride of Christ, would be wed in a filthy (Isaiah 64:6) wedding gown.
In this mortal life, because we believers are still sinners, but "forgiven sinners" -- we are still wearing our "unclean, filthy garments of worldly deeds" (Isaiah 64:6). How do we hide our unrighteousness from the eyes of God? At the moment of salvation, He covers us with the righteousness of Jesus Christ -- so that when God looks at us, He sees only the righteousness of Christ.
The apostle Paul writes, “But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it --the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe” (Romans 3:21–22). Through our faith in Christ, the righteousness of God is given to us. This is called “imputed” righteousness. To impute something is to ascribe or attribute something to someone. When we place our faith in Christ, God ascribes the perfect righteousness of Christ to our account so that we become perfect in His sight. “For our sake He made Him [Jesus] to be sin who knew no sin, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God” (2 Corinthians 5:21).
Not only is Christ’s righteousness imputed to us through faith, but our sin is imputed to Christ. That is how Christ paid our sin debt to God. He had no sin in Himself, but our sin is imputed to Him so, as He suffers on the cross, He is suffering the just penalty that our sin deserves. ("Why Does Christ's Righteousness Need To Be Imputed To Us?" - http://www.gotquestions.org/im...d-righteousness.html )
So, since we, the Bride of Christ, cannot wed our Bridegroom wearing a filthy wedding gown of unrighteousness -- we must, at some point before the wedding, be given our own wedding gown of righteousness. We find that in Revelation 19:8, "It was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints." That can only happen after the church is Raptured from this world (Revelation 4:1) -- and before the Wedding Feast of the Lamb (Revelation 19:6-9). This means that it must happen during the seven year Tribulation which is described in Revelation 6 through 18.
Therefore, the only Biblically true scenario can be: (1) the church is Raptured, (2) the Believers' Judgment (Bema Seat Judgment) occurs, (3) the Seven Year Tribulation plays out, (4) the Wedding Feast of the Lamb, (5) Christ returns to earth, His Second Coming, accompanied by His Bride, the Old Testament saints, the Tribulation martyrs, and His army of angels, (6) the Sheep and Goat Judgment occurs, (7) Christ establishes His Millennial Kingdom on the throne of David in Jerusalem where He rules, the perfect theocracy, for 1000 years, (8) then, the Great White Throne Judgment of resurrected non-believers occurs, (9) God creates the New Heaven, New Earth, and New Jerusalem, and finally (10) Jesus Christ takes all believers, from all ages, into Eternity where we will be in the joyful presence of God forever. Biblically, there can be no other schedule of events.
In conclusion, ALL people will stand before Jesus Christ in judgment -- but the Believers' Judgment will occur over 1000 years before the Great White Throne Judgment of all non-believers.
So, to my Post-Millennial/Amillennial Christian Forum Friend, if you can show me from Scripture (using the full 66 books, not a few cherry-picked and misinterpreted verses) another view of the Rapture -- I truly would like to discuss it with you.
God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,
Bill