Hi Smokey,

 

Amen to that!  HOWEVER, nowhere in the Bible are we told that "works" leads to faith or salvation.  One can "work" 24/7/365 and not be saved.   For the born-again Christian, we can tell you exactly when, how, and where we were saved.  It is not always a specific time, i.e., 3:00 PM, June 1, 1995 -- but, we know.  

 

For many, like myself, it was a process and not a specific event.   When I found the church where I felt the love of God flowing through the pastor, permeating all the congregation, and seeming to find me -- I knew I had found something special.

 

When I began to attend their Bible studies, I felt that same love from all the participants.   This Godly love kept me coming back to worship services and Bible studies -- all the time learning more and more about Jesus Christ and God's Word.  After six months, I knew I wanted to follow Jesus Christ for the rest of my life -- and into eternity.

 

So, works had nothing to do with my salvation.  It was a steadily growing relationship with Christ -- until I became a Christ Follower.

 

Three things to keep in mind:  First, no one who believes they are saved by works -- can tell you how they can know when they have worked enough to say that they are saved and have eternal life in Christ.

 

Second, Good works is the "fruit" of our salvation -- NOT the cause of our salvation.  That is why James 2:26 tell us, "For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead."  

 

This is telling us that our once we have, by grace, though faith, been saved -- if we are not working for the glory of God -- our faith has no strength.  It is weak.  Yet, because we are born-again, because we are Christ Followers -- we do not lose our eternal salvation.   As 1 Corinthians 3:15 tells us, "If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire."    

 

And, no, that does not mean the fictional purgatory.  It means that our works will be tested when we stand before Jesus Christ at the Believers' Judgment (Bema Seat) to receive our rewards in heaven, or our lack of rewards.  But, the greatest reward, that of being in heaven in the presence of God -- has already been won, for that is where this judgment will occur.

 

And, third, we cannot take one single Scripture verse and build a theology upon it -- unless that verse agrees with all the verses in all 66 books of the Bible. 

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Bible Inspired By God

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Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Hi Smokey,

 

Amen to that!  HOWEVER, nowhere in the Bible are we told that "works" leads to faith or salvation.  One can "work" 24/7/365 and not be saved.   For the born-again Christian, we can tell you exactly when, how, and where we were saved.  It is not always a specific time, i.e., 3:00 PM, June 1, 1995 -- but, we know.  

 

 


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Faith plus works it what it comes down to billie. 

 

James 2: 26.......26 Body separated from spirit is a dead body, and faith

separated from good deeds is a dead faith.

 

The Bible doesn't said by Faith alone anymore than it says once saved,

always saved. And since you do Not follow the words of Christ and you

may as well be eighty, I recommend you come up with some better lies

than what you tell me. That's the ticket, you believe you've fooled Jesus

all these years why not go for broke.

Amen, smokey and Vic;-) The case against sola scriptura is a very easy one- I wish you luck in your apologetics because I'm sure BG has invoked his "paid in full" argument and will hang his hat there. Thankfully, most people are more inclined to "walk the walk" rather than just talk and talk and talk..;-) Hope you're both well
Originally Posted by vplee123:
Amen, smokey and Vic;-) The case against sola scriptura is a very easy one- I wish you luck in your apologetics because I'm sure BG has invoked his "paid in full" argument and will hang his hat there. Thankfully, most people are more inclined to "walk the walk" rather than just talk and talk and talk..;-) Hope you're both well

Well where do you think you're going???

Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Hi Smokey,

 

Amen to that!  HOWEVER, nowhere in the Bible are we told that "works" leads to faith or salvation.  One can "work" 24/7/365 and not be saved.   For the born-again Christian, we can tell you exactly when, how, and where we were saved.  It is not always a specific time, i.e., 3:00 PM, June 1, 1995 -- but, we know.  

 

For many, like myself, it was a process and not a specific event.   When I found the church where I felt the love of God flowing through the pastor, permeating all the congregation, and seeming to find me -- I knew I had found something special.

 

When I began to attend their Bible studies, I felt that same love from all the participants.   This Godly love kept me coming back to worship services and Bible studies -- all the time learning more and more about Jesus Christ and God's Word.  After six months, I knew I wanted to follow Jesus Christ for the rest of my life -- and into eternity.

 

So, works had nothing to do with my salvation.  It was a steadily growing relationship with Christ -- until I became a Christ Follower.

 

Three things to keep in mind:  First, no one who believes they are saved by works -- can tell you how they can know when they have worked enough to say that they are saved and have eternal life in Christ.

 

Second, Good works is the "fruit" of our salvation -- NOT the cause of our salvation.  That is why James 2:26 tell us, "For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead."  

 

This is telling us that our once we have, by grace, though faith, been saved -- if we are not working for the glory of God -- our faith has no strength.  It is weak.  Yet, because we are born-again, because we are Christ Followers -- we do not lose our eternal salvation.   As 1 Corinthians 3:15 tells us, "If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire."    

 

And, no, that does not mean the fictional purgatory.  It means that our works will be tested when we stand before Jesus Christ at the Believers' Judgment (Bema Seat) to receive our rewards in heaven, or our lack of rewards.  But, the greatest reward, that of being in heaven in the presence of God -- has already been won, for that is where this judgment will occur.

 

And, third, we cannot take one single Scripture verse and build a theology upon it -- unless that verse agrees with all the verses in all 66 books of the Bible. 

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Bible Inspired By God

===================================

No one said anything about the Catholic Church but you just can't pass up an opportunity to take a shot at the church, can you Gray?

Originally Posted by smokey1:

No one said anything about the Catholic Church but you just can't pass up an opportunity to take a shot at the church, can you Gray?

_______

 

 

He can't pass up an opportunity to take a shot at any church or any of us. He works for Satan....nuff said.

 

 

quote:  Originally Posted by smokey1:
No one said anything about the Catholic Church but you just can't pass up an opportunity to take a shot at the church, can you Gray?

Hi Smokey,

 

My Friend, as usual, you are confused and read what you WANT to hear in the writings of those with whom you disagree.  There is NO MENTION of the Roman Catholic church in my post.  I mention a "fictional purgatory" -- but, do you think the Roman Catholics are the only religion with some kind of a purgatory type belief?  Other world religions have similar beliefs about life after death.

 

On the other hand, are YOU being a wee bit prejudiced by reading negatives about the Roman Catholic church into writings -- where that church and that religion are not mentioned?  Maybe you are like all the Obama lovers who want to call it "racism" every time we disagree with him.  Something to think about?

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Sylvester-Cat-2_TEXT

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Originally Posted by Bill Gray:
quote:  Originally Posted by smokey1:
No one said anything about the Catholic Church but you just can't pass up an opportunity to take a shot at the church, can you Gray?

Hi Smokey,

 

My Friend, as usual, you are confused and read what you WANT to hear in the writings of those with whom you disagree.  There is NO MENTION of the Roman Catholic church in my post.  I mention a "fictional purgatory" -- but, do you think the Roman Catholics are the only religion with some kind of a purgatory type belief?  Other world religions have similar beliefs about life after death.

 

On the other hand, are YOU being a wee bit prejudiced by reading negatives about the Roman Catholic church into writings -- where that church and that religion are not mentioned?  Maybe you are like all the Obama lovers who want to call it "racism" every time we disagree with him.  Something to think about?

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Sylvester-Cat-2_TEXT

==============================

Ok Gray,

tell me what other churches teach a belief in purgatory. 

Also, based on your almost daily attacks on the Catholic Church I know this was just another attempt of yours at trying to belittle fellow Christians. 

You are nothing but a snake in the grass.

 

quote:   Originally Posted by Nathan Evans:

Purgatory does not contradict anything in the 73 books of the Bible.  Luke 16:19-31(the parable of the rich man and Lazarus) clearly shows that there is another place beside heaven and hell where the dead go.  Praised be Jesus forever!!

Hi Nathan,

 

Show us how Luke 16:19-31 proves purgatory.  It is my understanding that purgatory is a place where Roman Catholics go to finish cleaning up their act -- before going to heaven.  That is not true of the Hades of today shown in Luke 16.

 

Jesus Christ tells us, in John 14:6, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life; NO ONE comes to the Father but through Me."   Before His death and resurrection, everyone went to Hades.  The non-believers to Hades/Torment (Luke 16:23).  And, the believers to the Bosom of Abraham, Hades/Paradise (Luke 16:22).

 

Luke 16:23, "In Hades he (the rich man non-believer) lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom."


Luke 16:22, "Now the poor man (Lazarus) died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried."

 

Luke 23:43, "And He (Jesus) said to him (the repentant thief on the cross), 'Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.' "

 

Where did Jesus go when He died on the cross?  He went into Hades for three days.  What happened when He left Hades/Paradise?  He led the captives free, i.e., those Old Testament saints and the thief on the cross.  He led them from Hades/Paradise -- into Heaven/Paradise (Ephesians 4:8).  Hades/Paradise was permanently put out of business that day.  Since then, ALL believers go directly into the presence of God, Jesus Christ, at the moment of death.  No purgatory!

 

2 Corinthians 5:6-8, "Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord -- for we walk by faith, not by sight -- we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord."

 

However, Hades/Torment is still open and doing a landslide business.  It will not be closed until after the 1000 year Millennial Reign of Christ on earth.  Then, He will resurrect all those non-believers who have been waiting in Hades/Torment.  They will stand before Him at the Great White Throne Judgment, a judgment of punishment, and then will go into eternal hell (Revelation 20:11-15).

 

So, Nathan, my Friend -- if any of your Roman Catholic folks are in Hades (or what you are calling purgatory) today -- they are in deep trouble.   For, if they are in Hades today -- they are headed straight to hell -- and not waiting on a bus to take them into heaven.  NO ONE in Hades today will EVER see heaven, the kingdom of God.

 

If that is your purgatory as described in Luke 16:19-31 -- then, it is too late, the train has already left the station.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Bible Inspired By God

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Originally Posted by Bill Gray:
quote:   Originally Posted by Nathan Evans:

Purgatory does not contradict anything in the 73 books of the Bible.  Luke 16:19-31(the parable of the rich man and Lazarus) clearly shows that there is another place beside heaven and hell where the dead go.  Praised be Jesus forever!!

Hi Nathan,

 

Show us how Luke 16:19-31 proves purgatory.  It is my understanding that purgatory is a place where Roman Catholics go to finish cleaning up their act -- before going to heaven.  That is not true of the Hades of today shown in Luke 16.

 

Jesus Christ tells us, in John 14:6, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life; NO ONE comes to the Father but through Me."   Before His death and resurrection, everyone went to Hades.  The non-believers to Hades/Torment (Luke 16:23).  And, the believers to the Bosom of Abraham, Hades/Paradise (Luke 16:22).

 

Luke 16:23, "In Hades he (the rich man non-believer) lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom."


Luke 16:22, "Now the poor man (Lazarus) died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried."

 

Luke 23:43, "And He (Jesus) said to him (the repentant thief on the cross), 'Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.' "

 

Where did Jesus go when He died on the cross?  He went into Hades for three days.  What happened when He left Hades/Paradise?  He led the captives free, i.e., those Old Testament saints and the thief on the cross.  He led them from Hades/Paradise -- into Heaven/Paradise (Ephesians 4:8).  Hades/Paradise was permanently put out of business that day.  Since then, ALL believers go directly into the presence of God, Jesus Christ, at the moment of death.  No purgatory!

 

2 Corinthians 5:6-8, "Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord -- for we walk by faith, not by sight -- we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord."

 

However, Hades/Torment is still open and doing a landslide business.  It will not be closed until after the 1000 year Millennial Reign of Christ on earth.  Then, He will resurrect all those non-believers who have been waiting in Hades/Torment.  They will stand before Him at the Great White Throne Judgment, a judgment of punishment, and then will go into eternal hell (Revelation 20:11-15).

 

So, Nathan, my Friend -- if any of your Roman Catholic folks are in Hades (or what you are calling purgatory) today -- they are in deep trouble.   For, if they are in Hades today -- they are headed straight to hell -- and not waiting on a bus to take them into heaven.  NO ONE in Hades today will EVER see heaven, the kingdom of God.

 

If that is your purgatory as described in Luke 16:19-31 -- then, it is too late, the train has already left the station.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

 

________________________

#6

Originally Posted by INVICTUS:
Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Hi Smokey,

 

Amen to that!  HOWEVER, nowhere in the Bible are we told that "works" leads to faith or salvation.  One can "work" 24/7/365 and not be saved.   For the born-again Christian, we can tell you exactly when, how, and where we were saved.  It is not always a specific time, i.e., 3:00 PM, June 1, 1995 -- but, we know.  

 

 


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Faith plus works it what it comes down to billie. 

 

James 2: 26.......26 Body separated from spirit is a dead body, and faith

separated from good deeds is a dead faith.

 

The Bible doesn't said by Faith alone anymore than it says once saved,

always saved. And since you do Not follow the words of Christ and you

may as well be eighty, I recommend you come up with some better lies

than what you tell me. That's the ticket, you believe you've fooled Jesus

all these years why not go for broke.

 

Originally Posted by semiannualchick:

Nathan, does the Catholic bible offer any more proof than the bible other religions read that God does actually exist?

My name's not Lisa, or Nathan, but I will say the 73 books of the catlick
bible or any Christian bible you won't find the definitive proof of God.

God doesn't want drones, he wants your faith.

He can convert the entire world in the blink of your eye. But that doesn't

come with love. Your faith, true faith come with love of God. That's the

difference God makes with us. Talk is cheap and when you see day after

day satan's boy attempt to steal the glory of Jesus for his very own, then

you know to ignore that person. Walk the true walk of faith, talk if you

only need to.

 

 

quote:  Originally Posted by INVICTUS:
[quote] Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Hi Smokey,   Amen to that!  HOWEVER, nowhere in the Bible are we told that "works" leads to faith or salvation.  One can "work" 24/7/365 and not be saved.   For the born-again Christian, we can tell you exactly when, how, and where we were saved.  It is not always a specific time, i.e., 3:00 PM, June 1, 1995 -- but, we know.

 

Faith plus works it what it comes down to billie.

 

 James 2: 26.......26 Body separated from spirit is a dead body, and faith separated from good deeds is a dead faith.

 

The Bible doesn't said by Faith alone anymore than it says once saved, always saved. And since you do Not follow the words of Christ and you may as well be eighty, I recommend you come up with some better lies than what you tell me. That's the ticket, you believe you've fooled Jesus all these years why not go for broke.

Hi Vic,

 

And, Ephesians 2:8-9 tell us, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."

 

So, Vic, tell us -- how many, or how much, works will YOU have to do to gain entrance into the kingdom of God?

 

John 3:3, "Jesus answered and said to him, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.' "

Ephesians 1:13, "In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation -- having also believed, you were sealed (saved) in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise."

 

When one is sealed in Christ, i.e., that person has been saved -- that person HAS eternal life in Christ. 

 

Where in any of these Scripture passages do you see that we have to WORK for our salvation -- or even that we can work for our salvation?

 

My Friend, I do believe you need to discard your catechism books -- and pick up a Bible.  Try reading all 66 books of God's Word and there will be an eternal change within you.  That change?  You will KNOW if you are saved and if you HAVE eternal life in Christ.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Bible - Daily Bread

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