Jesus of Nazareth starkly stands out as unique in His manner and purpose

of death, among claimants to "all authority in heaven and earth"! (cf. Matt 28.18)


There are material, significant, and pervasive similarities between the

Jesus Christ of the New Testament  and other Dying God-figures

(and/or Savior-figures), and that these similarities are best explained by

the hypothesis that the figure of Jesus is materially derived from

(or heavily influenced by) these other Dying God/Savior-figures.


Now, before we try to analyze this notion, we need to gather some established

criteria (from scholars) on how to detect and establish that 'borrowing'

(especially "content/material" borrowing) has occurred.


Fortunately, there are a number of established criteria for this (so we don't

have to 'make up' or 'create' our own), drawing largely from the work of scholars

working in the area of Semitic influence on the Greek/Western world

(e.g., Walter Burkert, Charles Pengrase, M. L. West),

so let's start with some of their work:


"Since the discovery of the Akkadian epics and of Gilgamesh in particular,

there has been no shortage of associations between motifs in these and in

the Homeric epics, especially the Odyssey. These motifs can be highlighted

and used to surprise, but hardly to prove anything: Approximately the same

motifs and themes will be found everywhere. Instead of individual motifs,


therefore, we must focus on more complex structures, where sheer

coincidence is less likely: a system of deitites and a basic cosmological idea,

the narrative structure of a whole scene, decrees of the gods about mankind,

or a very special configuration of attack and defense.


Once the historical link, the fact of transmission, has been established, then

further connections, including linguistic borrowings, become more likely, even

if these alone do not suffice to carry the burden of proof." [OTRNEI:88; his

examples often contain elements that are 'holdovers'--elements that appear

in the borrower that only made sense in the original  source...they are

unexpected and without purpose in the new usage, since they have been

removed from their original context.]


"I can anticipate at least two possible lines of criticism that may be employed

against my work. One would be that, in stressing similarities and parallels,

I have ignored the great differences between Greek and Near Eastern literatures

my answer will be that of course Greek literature has its own character, its own

traditions and conventions, and the contrast that might be drawn between it

and any of the oriental literatures might far outnumber the common features.


If anyone wants to write another book and point them out, I should have

no objection...But even if it were ten times the size of mine (600+ pages!),

it would not diminish the significance of the likenesses, because they are

too numerous and too striking to be put down to chance.

You cannot argue against the fact that it is raining by pointing out that

much of the sky is blue." [HI:EFHWAE:viii]


Link to the site



Original Post



How've ya been?  I've been moving.


Interesting post.  Your source is not scholarly, however, as it is clearly agenda-driven.  Maybe that's inevitable, since honest scholars of religion seem to either start with an agenda or have one thrust upon them.


Since we share this hobby, I'd like to suggest a source to you.  Xoroaster is a bible scholar who is on a quest of discovery, and he's essentially videoing that quest.  I think you might find his work interesting.  He certainly touches on things like Greek influence on the story of Jesus, especially with regard to Homer.  Xoroaster will even cite his sources, and he's email friendly.


Try this one for a starter:


His YouTube page has many such videos.


The Greek influence on Christianity is a compelling topic.  The earliest Gospels were written in Greek, decades after the Jesus story originated.  The Greek scribes were well aware of many godmen with certain powers and qualities such as virgin birth (really quite common among the gods), water-to-wine, the fish and loaves stuff, raising the dead, casting out demons, walking on water, son of god claim, crucifixion, and resurrection, to name a few.  It's not out of the question that the Greeks borrowed a bit from here, a bit from there, to create a unique character whose several mystical qualities are anything but unique. 


I presume you're up to speed with Bart Ehrman?



Hi all,


Don't you love it when we see a Friend grow spiritually?  Our Friend, Deep, came on the TD Forums over five years ago preaching for the Church Of Nothing (atheism).  And, gradually, over the years, he has switched allegiance to the Church Of The YouTube, which could be anything -- depending upon the staging and make-up.   Yes, our dear Friend, Deep, has grown.  But, we cannot decide in which direction.


And, Vic, I am not sure what point you are trying to make with this copy/pasted article.  Yes, Jesus Christ is the only Savior -- and this is verified in the Bible.  We will always have scholars (?) and others raising great points of criticism -- but, regardless of which book or story they want to compare to the Bible -- the Bible is still the ONLY book which contains 1817 fulfilled and proven prophecies -- without one single failure.


If you, or anyone, can show us a book with an equal record of fulfilled prophecies -- then, I will consider that religion.   However, since I know that is impossible -- I will continue to follow the only God and the only Savior, Jesus Christ.


God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,



DA, DA, DA..... hehehehe



a cursory exploration of Biblical history will demonstrate that the few concrete OT prophesies, and the hundreds of tortured, tangential prophesies favored by fringe cults are explained by the fact that the Gospels were written decades after the alleged life of Jesus.

In other words, they lied.  Both about the concrete (yet still wack) and fluffy prophesies, and Jesus' fulfillment of them.


Just for one example:  Now, I could be wrong, but I think it's in the Gospel of John where Jesus must arrive in Jerusalem on an ass.  So, the disciples go out and find him one to fulfill the prophesy.


Here is a prophesy that will demonstrate my divinity:  Tomorrow, I will start my GMC and drive to work.


Be prepared, if you don't mind, to worship me this time tomorrow, as I have fulfilled the prophesy.



Originally Posted by DarkAngel:

Maybe you can answer me Bill. What are these fulfilled prophecies?



Could he do it in 100 words or less, without making another thread, and skip the sermon?

quote:   Originally Posted by DarkAngel:

Maybe you can answer me Bill.  What are these fulfilled prophecies? 

Hi Dark,


Do your homework!  Start with the Bible.  Then, if you really need help -- let's talk.


God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,





Photos (1)
Originally Posted by Not Shallow Not Slim:



You'll like this series.  Here's the link to the first episode.


Episode 9 sums it all up nicely, but that would be cheating.  Let me know what you think.




There's nothing new with this, it proves nothing. Changing the facts

doesn't help your case. Three days isn't enough time to decompose.

Episode 9 or 99, makes no difference to me.




While I don't understand your "three days" reference, I agree that this video series proves nothing.  It is, however, highly suggestive and well referenced.


The Homeric references in the Gospels, especially Mark, are difficult to explain away, don't you think?  Considering the Gospels were first written in Greek, by Greek scholars who were familiar with Homer, can one say that the Gospels are truly a history or more likely a Hero Tale?



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