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that's fairly accurate, except for one thing...

jesus pointed out that he did not come to undo the laws of moses, but to fulfill them.

he most certainly didn't say that 'those don't count' anymore.

i also don't recall him saying to sell all your stuff, and use your money and resourses to help others BEFORE helping your own family and children.
i don't think the book says to make ones self destitute to be able to support others.
that just doesn't make any sense at all.

but other than those 2 bits, that's fairly accurate... love one another. help one another.

no, he wouldn't be ok with the idea of bombing terrorists.. but he'd hate the terrorists blowing up school kids in the name of honor and god even more.

pretty sure the bible says it's ok to defend and protect yourself and your country.. if it's necessary to kill people first, because if you don't thye will try to kill you, well, lock and load, better them than us.

Jesus might have been a dirty hippie, but he was NOT a coward. he also wasn't a little scrawny pasty dork like the looser in that picture.
he was a carpenter, and it pointed out he stood a head and shoulder above the crowd.

it meant he was huge and pretty much solid muscle. carpenters in those days didn't have the neat nail guns and power tools.
quote:
Originally posted by Peter Rielly:
That is the most absurd, and quite frankly, blasphemous thing I think I've seen anyone post on here. "Atheist" or not, at least have the Bible comprehension of a 10 year old if you are going to post on the religion forum something about Jesus.... sad....sad...sad....

Hi Peter,

There will always be the "class" of humans (?) who will paint a swastika on Jewish synagogues or burn Christian churches. Unfortunately, when God gave man the gift of "free will" -- He knew many would use that free will to wallow in the pig pen.

So, all we can do is to feel sorry for their delusion -- and pray for them. Praying for them is probably their greatest punishment for now. Remember, we are told in Proverbs 25:21-22, "If your enemy is hungry, give him food to eat; and if he is thirsty, give him water to drink; for you will heap burning coals on his head, and the LORD will reward you."

If helping our enemy will heap burning coals on his head -- imagine what praying for him/her will do! And, the good news is -- we get rewarded for doing it.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Actually Nagel, there is a verse (I can't think of it right now) where Jesuse tells a guy to drop everything and follow him. He meant literally, because when the guy said he wanted to go home and tell his wife and family where he was going, Jesus told him not to. That verse has always bothered me, but I suppose it means that we must always put Jesus first, and not worry at all about our families. Seems a bit harsh though, doesn't it?
quote:
Originally posted by O No!:
Actually Nagel, there is a verse (I can't think of it right now) where Jesus tells a guy to drop everything and follow him. He meant literally, because when the guy said he wanted to go home and tell his wife and family where he was going, Jesus told him not to. That verse has always bothered me, but I suppose it means that we must always put Jesus first, and not worry at all about our families. Seems a bit harsh though, doesn't it?

Hi O,

You are thinking of Matthew 8:21-22, "Another of the disciples said to Him, 'Lord, permit me first to go and bury my father.' But Jesus said to him, 'Follow Me, and allow the dead to bury their own dead.'"

Pastor Chuck Smith of Calvary Chapel has a good explanation of this in his C2000 Series commentary on Matthew 8-9:

'"Another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first. . ." (Mat 8:21)

Now we talked to you about the inconsistencies of speech last week as we were studying the subject of the Lordship of Jesus Christ when many will come saying, "Lord, Lord" remember that? How Peter said, "Not so Lord" and we said that was a perfect inconsistency of speech. Here again, an inconsistency of speech, "Lord, me first." It can't be that way. He's got to be first. "Lord, allow me first," -- nope, you've got the wrong idea of the kingdom.

". . .to go and bury my father." (Mat 8:21),

You say, "Oh, wait a minute. That's legitimate isn't it?"

"Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead." (Mat 8:22).

Put Jesus first, you see. Now, the chances are the fellow's father was in perfect health. This is a common term for procrastination. Hey, I want to do it, but I'm not ready yet. But, one of these days, you know, allow me first to bury my father. Wait awhile until my dad dies. And it's a term of procrastination. Just suffer me first to take a little time. The Lord is speaking against procrastination. The idea of putting Him first; "Follow me, let the dead bury their dead."


So, no, Jesus Christ was not being harsh. He was being truthful that, if a person truly wants to follow Christ -- he must lay aside all worldly things and come follow Him. Sometimes, a person may be called to lay aside family to follow Him. Missionaries do this all the time -- leave home and family to go into unknown countries, jungles, mountains, etc. -- to share His Gospel.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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I'm not sure if that was the verse I was thinking of. I seem to remember a wife and kids. But either way, I guess if we believe and trust Him enough, we should trust that He will take care of our loved ones, even if we suddenly disappear.

I'm going to have to wait 'til I get home and find that verse. (I'm at work now.) I'll try to post it tomorrow.
quote:
Originally posted by O No!:
Actually Nagel, there is a verse (I can't think of it right now) where Jesuse tells a guy to drop everything and follow him. He meant literally, because when the guy said he wanted to go home and tell his wife and family where he was going, Jesus told him not to. That verse has always bothered me, but I suppose it means that we must always put Jesus first, and not worry at all about our families. Seems a bit harsh though, doesn't it?


i remember the bit bill talks about. i don't rememebr the bit with the guys wife....

but, all i can say is if he came down now, told me to follow him, and tried me to stop me from calling my wife to let her know what the deal was, there would be... issues....

if bill is right and it's about some dude dead daddy.... well, once the body is dead , the soul is gone.. it's just an empty shell, so screw it.. the empty meat puppet can wait long enough to do christs will.

my wife, however, will not.

and, either way, thats a whole different thing.
that's walking away to directly follow jesus Hisownself and he roams around and preaches...
it's not the same thing as giving up all he owns to feed the hungry of the village while he lets his own kids go hungry, which is what that doofus who posted the silly image was suggesting.
quote:
Originally posted by Everlasting Godstopper:
What about it is non-biblical, or non-Jesusy, Peter? As far as I can tell, it is spot on with everything Jesus taught. I'm an atheist but this is not a blasphemous picture. It is filled with truth if one takes the lessons of Jesus seriously.

It also succinctly highlights the hypocrisy of the "religious right."


Every single letter of every single word of that is "non-biblical" except the divorce part, God does hate that(though trying to use it to prop up homosexuality is lunacy). Like I said, read the Bible... then at least TRY to grasp what it says, then get back to me. Jesus is God's Word... Jesus was/is the ultimate sacrifice that God gave to us so that we could be washed clean in His eyes because of sins such as sexual immorality(uhhh.. that's not just the adulterers, prostitutes, and just general "loose" folks, that includes the gays too... lol)

Prayer in schools... YOU are using that out of context. Our founding fathers allowed any prayer, any time... the government, under the Constitution of the United States CANNOT tell kids they can't pray in school. so your bilboard misses the point there.

And on the taxes... Once again... YOU are missing the point. Jesus said to many in the Bible that we should pay taxes we owe. But once again.... Our founding fathers... remember those guys?? Sorry I keep bringing them up, they were just slightly opposed to unfair taxing of the citizens... They abhorred BIG GOVERNMENT and they gave us a great foundation on how to live FREE of gov't rule so we could live free as citizens of this great nation. So what SHOULD BE OWED by us would be a much smaller number if we had not abandoned our founding fathers vision for this country.

And yes, charity is a must... but read this closely, and once again realize which country it is you reside, and what our system of government is SUPPOSED to be. CHARITY SHOULD BE A MORAL OBLIGATION BUT NOT A GOVERNMENT MANDATE.

As for the bombing thing... uhhh... Jesus is God... now... go back and read over some of the quite violent action God took against evil cities and countries throughout the Bible.
Luke 12:33. "Sell your possessions and give to charity; make yourselves purses which do not wear out, an unfailing treasure in heaven, where no thief comes near, nor moth destroys."

Luke 3:11. And [John the Baptist] would answer and say to them, "Let the man with two tunics share with him who has none, and let him who has food do likewise."

Mt. 5:42. Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you.

Mt. 19:20ff. The young man said to Him, "All these commands I have kept; what am I still lacking?" Jesus said to him, "If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."

Jer. 5:28f. "[The wicked] do not plead the cause, the cause of the orphan, that they may prosper; and they do not defend the rights of the poor. Shall I not punish these people?" declares the LORD. "On such a nation as this, shall I not avenge myself?"

James 5:1-6. Come now, you rich, weep and howl for your miseries which are coming upon you. Your riches have rotted and your garments have become moth-eaten. ...Behold, the pay of the laborers who mowed your fields, and with you have withheld, cries out against you; and the outcry of the harvesters has reached the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth. You have lived luxuriously on the earth and led a life of wanton pleasure; you have fattened your hearts in a day of slaughter.

Luke 6:24. "But woe to you who are rich, for you are receiving your comfort in full."

Luke 16:19-25. "Now there was a certain rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, gaily living in splendor every day. And a certain poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores, and longing to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table; besides, even the dogs would come and lick his sores.
Now it came about that the poor man died and he was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. And in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes, and saw Abraham far away, and Lazarus in his bosom.
And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue; for I am in agony in this flame.'
But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony...'"

Acts 2:44. All those who had believed were together, and had all things in common; and they began to sell their property and possessions, and share them with all, as anyone might have need.

Acts 4:32-35. And the congregation of those who believed were of one heart and soul; and not one of them claimed that anything belonging to him was his own, but all things were common property to them. And with great power the apostles were giving witness to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and abundant grace was upon them all. For there was not a needy person among them, for all who were owners of land or houses would sell them and bring the proceeds of the sales and lay them at the apostles' feet; and they would be distributed to each, as any had need.



Any of this ring a bell to you guys?
quote:
Originally posted by Jankinonya:
Midacts,

Are you on the same forum thread the rest of us are on?

What are you talking about?


Yes, Jankinonya, I'm on the same forum. I'm pointing out that none of those passages you listed are given to the church. Those passages all had to to with the gospel of the kingdom which John the Baptist, Jesus, the 70, and the 12 preached to the nation, Israel, and they have to do with the kingdom of heaven, not the church.
I'm coming from a dispensational approach to biblical interpretation.
quote:
Originally posted by Jankinonya:
Any of this ring a bell to you guys?

Hi Jan,

Those are all good things to do -- but NONE of them bring salvation. The ONLY WAY to salvation is through having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

All these things listed in the passages you quoted -- are "fruit" of our salvation -- not the cause of our salvation.

As James said, "Faith without works is dead" -- but, first, one must have the saving faith.

First, comes a saving relationship with Jesus Christ -- then, comes the works to glorify Him.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by midacts:
quote:
Originally posted by Jankinonya:
Midacts,

Are you on the same forum thread the rest of us are on?

What are you talking about?


Yes, Jankinonya, I'm on the same forum. I'm pointing out that none of those passages you listed are given to the church. Those passages all had to to with the gospel of the kingdom which John the Baptist, Jesus, the 70, and the 12 preached to the nation, Israel, and they have to do with the kingdom of heaven, not the church.
I'm coming from a dispensational approach to biblical interpretation.

Hi Mid,

I, too, am dispensational -- but, I have to admit that you lost me also. Would you care to elaborate on these thoughts?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Jankinonya,

The kingdom of heaven will be on earth; it will be governed and conditioned by those heavely principles elaborated in the synoptic gospels. It will be the fulfillment of the Abrahamic Covenant that God made with the Jews.

This kind of interpretation is called dispensationalism and was popularized by Schofield in his Schofield reference Bible. However, most preachers erroneouly mix the kingdom teachings of the gospels with the dispensational teaching of Paul.
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by Jankinonya:
Any of this ring a bell to you guys?

Hi Jan,

Those are all good things to do -- but NONE of them bring salvation. The ONLY WAY to salvation is through having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

All these things listed in the passages you quoted -- are "fruit" of our salvation -- not the cause of our salvation.

As James said, "Faith without works is dead" -- but, first, one must have the saving faith.

First, comes a saving relationship with Jesus Christ -- then, comes the works to glorify Him.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill


If taken literally then this verse says otherwise.

Mt. 19:20ff. The young man said to Him, "All these commands I have kept; what am I still lacking?" Jesus said to him, "If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."

Jesus is saying you have to have both to be complete.

I actually am not going to keep debating this point because truthfully, I don't care enough. I am not trying to be hateful, just truthful. Its your beliefs and you can interpret it how ever you see fit. Who am I to tell you that you are wrong. I don't even believe in it. I guess the only reason I brought up those verses was because it did seem obvious to me that jesus did say to give up what you had to the poor and I was just pointing that out.

I will bow out now. I truly don't want to get into a debate with you folks that believe. I hate the whole circular logic that begins about now.
quote:
Originally posted by midacts:
quote:
Originally posted by Jankinonya:
Midacts,

Are you on the same forum thread the rest of us are on?

What are you talking about?


Yes, Jankinonya, I'm on the same forum. I'm pointing out that none of those passages you listed are given to the church. Those passages all had to to with the gospel of the kingdom which John the Baptist, Jesus, the 70, and the 12 preached to the nation, Israel, and they have to do with the kingdom of heaven, not the church.
I'm coming from a dispensational approach to biblical interpretation.


This might be the spookiest and most obtuse comment on religion I've ever heard here.

Is the Bible correct or not? Does it apply to everyone, or not?

I'd say not, but then, that's just me.

Jank pwns another one.


nsns
quote:
Originally posted by midacts:
Jankinonya,

The kingdom of heaven will be on earth; it will be governed and conditioned by those heavely principles elaborated in the synoptic gospels. It will be the fulfillment of the Abrahamic Covenant that God made with the Jews.

This kind of interpretation is called dispensationalism and was popularized by Schofield in his Schofield reference Bible. However, most preachers erroneouly mix the kingdom teachings of the gospels with the dispensational teaching of Paul.


God help us.

Kingdom of God on Earth? This reinforces every theocratic, Dominionist threat I've ever encountered.

I had no idea midacts was so dangerous. And UnAmerican.

Mid, for your 411, we enjoy freedom of religion in the USA. That includes freedom from religion.

Look around you. Check out the Hubble telescope images. Learn a bit about astronomy. The universe is unimaginably huge and complicated.

Are you so solipsistic as to believe that all of Creation is for your benefit? Has God nothing better to do than to humble the Universe in order to establish his "Kingdom" here, on this insignificant speck of dust?

I pity you. I really do. How have you let your mind be poisoned to this degree?


nsns
Bill,

As you know, all scripture is for us, but not all scripture is to us.

Jesus offered the long prophesied kingdom to the Jews at his first advent. That offering is recorded in the synoptics (also in John's gospel and the first few chapters of Acts). Jesus told the Jews that the kingdom of heaven (or kingdom of God) was at hand. If the Jews hadd acceptd Him as the King, the son of David, then the Christ would have set up the kingdom of heaven at that time. That is, the millennium would have begun.

Remember, Jesus told them not to go in the way of the Gentiles and Peter, even in the book of acts was still following that admonishion.

When the Jews officially rejected the kingdom gospel (at the stoning of Stephen I think) God raised up Paul and the dispensations changed. Paul preached the gospel of the grace of God and salvation was conditioned on faith alone to both Jews and Gentiles. This began the church age or the dispensation of the church. It will last until the rapture and then God will resume his program with Israel and complete the 70th week of Daniel's 70 wk. prophecy and culminate, after the 7th wk (also know as the tribulation), in the millennial, prophesied kingdom on earth.

I hope y'all don't think I'm into a weird form of interpretation. I'm a student of Darby, Chafer, Schofiel, Walvoord, and Ryrie. Many refer to us as Pauline classic dispensationalists.
quote:
Originally posted by Not Shallow Not Slim:
quote:
Originally posted by midacts:
Jankinonya,

The kingdom of heaven will be on earth; it will be governed and conditioned by those heavely principles elaborated in the synoptic gospels. It will be the fulfillment of the Abrahamic Covenant that God made with the Jews.

This kind of interpretation is called dispensationalism and was popularized by Schofield in his Schofield reference Bible. However, most preachers erroneouly mix the kingdom teachings of the gospels with the dispensational teaching of Paul.


God help us.

Kingdom of God on Earth? This reinforces every theocratic, Dominionist threat I've ever encountered.

I had no idea midacts was so dangerous. And UnAmerican.

Mid, for your 411, we enjoy freedom of religion in the USA. That includes freedom from religion.

Look around you. Check out the Hubble telescope images. Learn a bit about astronomy. The universe is unimaginably huge and complicated.

Are you so solipsistic as to believe that all of Creation is for your benefit? Has God nothing better to do than to humble the Universe in order to establish his "Kingdom" here, on this insignificant speck of dust?

I pity you. I really do. How have you let your mind be poisoned to this degree?


nsns


Who, me dangerous, Not Shallow Not Slim, nah.
I'm just interpreting biblical prophecy literally. The ones that are dangerous are those that try to derive from the bible that the U.S. is the kingdom of God, like the Calvinistic Puritans did and many politicians today, like, probably many Tea Partyers do.
Mid,

I admit I misjudged you.

The USA is as far from the Kingdom of God as any country could be.

Surely, Iran, or Ireland, or Israel, just to exhaust the "I"s would qualify better.

What else distinguishes the USA from other Western democracies besides our deliberate separation of church and state?

England and Germany, either directly or indirectly, assess taxes for their state governments. We need not discuss the Islamic states. Of course, we Americans subsidize churches by making those businesses tax exempt. For some strange reason, churches interpret the First Amendment to defend that subsidy. Go figure.

Let the conversation continue.


nsns
quote:
Originally posted by midacts:
I'm sorry for the mechanical errors in my posts, but I haven't figured out how to get a "preview" of my posts. Confused Also, I haven't figured out how to put a quote into my posts. I'm not real savvy.

Hi Mid,

What I do is to compose my post in my e-mail composition window where I can view it, check it, and spell check it. Some folks do it in a word processor; but, I find the composition window more convenient -- and it allows me to save my posts in a Draft folder in case I need to refer to them later.

Also, this allows me to put in the html codes for color, italics, bold, etc., more easily and accurately.

I hope this helps.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Hi Mid,

You tell me, "Bill, As you know, all scripture is for us, but not all scripture is to us."

True, there are specific Scripture passages in the Old Testament written to specific individuals or group which were intended just for them. Yet, even in those, there are lessons for all Christian believers. Yet, we find that the prophecies in the Old Testament, while having a near term fulfillment -- also had a longer term fulfillment. Some still to be fulfilled even to this day.

Then, you say, "Jesus offered the long prophesied kingdom to the Jews at his first advent. That offering is recorded in the synoptics (also in John's gospel and the first few chapters of Acts). Jesus told the Jews that the kingdom of heaven (or kingdom of God) was at hand. If the Jews had accepted Him as the King, the son of David, then the Christ would have set up the kingdom of heaven at that time. That is, the millennium would have begun."

Yes, Jesus came to the Jews first; but, there is little doubt that His omniscient intent was salvation for all people who would believe. And, the writings of the four Gospels and Acts was initially aimed at Jewish believers -- because, initially, the first believers were Jewish converts from Judaism. There were Greeks and others who had converted to Judaism; but, then converted to Christianity. But, virtually all the first Christians were Jewish.

But, no, I will have to say that the four Gospels, Acts, and all the Epistles and Revelation were written for all believers; even though the initial believers were Jews.

Did Jesus have an intent to establish His Millennial Kingdom at that time? No. Keep in mind that God is omniscient; knowing all things. God cannot be surprised; so, He knew exactly what would happen when Jesus Christ became God Incarnate. It was as though the had the full script for the Play Eternal in His hands as He, the Producer, and Jesus Christ, the Director -- went about the business of bringing the New Covenant of Grace to His people; all of His people.

Next, you tell me, "Remember, Jesus told them not to go in the way of the Gentiles and Peter, even in the book of acts was still following that admonition."

Yes, even though Peter was a Christian believer and had been indwelled and empowered by the Holy Spirit -- he was still Jewish. And, at the house of Simon the Tanner, the Spirit of God had to teach him that all people are the same to Him. That was the lesson of the animals Peter was told to eat in his dream.

Once God showed Peter His desires; Peter did not hesitate to go into the Roman officers home and convert his entire family.

And, Peter still reverted to his Jewish beliefs at times, such as when he wanted Gentile converts to be circumcised -- and Paul challenged him.

Romans 1:16, "For I am not ashamed of the Gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek."

Galatians 3:28, "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus."

Yes, initially the Greeks, i.e., the Gentiles (meaning all non-Jews) were pagan -- but, once they converted to Christianity, there was no difference.

You tell us, "When the Jews officially rejected the kingdom gospel (at the stoning of Stephen I think) God raised up Paul and the dispensations changed. Paul preached the gospel of the grace of God and salvation was conditioned on faith alone to both Jews and Gentiles. This began the church age or the dispensation of the church. It will last until the rapture and then God will resume his program with Israel and complete the 70th week of Daniel's 70 wk. prophecy and culminate, after the 7th wk (also know as the tribulation), in the millennial, prophesied kingdom on earth."

I have to disagree with you. The Church Age began, in Acts 2, when the first Jews became indwelled, born again Christians. The first were the 120 in the Upper Room; then, the 3000 when Peter and the apostles preached to the people of Jerusalem who had been attracted by the noise of the Holy Spirit coming upon the 120 new Christians. This was the Day of Pentecost; 50 days after His resurrection, 10 days after His ascension into heaven. That began the Church Age -- and it will end with the Rapture of the church.

True, the Tribulation is primarily for the redemption of His remnant of Jews; yet, many millions of Gentiles will be saved during the Tribulation also. And, when He returns after the seven year Tribulation -- He will establish His Millennial Kingdom. This was His plan all along. For, as we all know -- God cannot be surprised. "Oops!" is not in His vocabulary.

Finally, you tell us, "I hope y'all don't think I'm into a weird form of interpretation. I'm a student of Darby, Chafer, Scofield, Walvoord, and Ryrie. Many refer to us as Pauline classic dispensationalists."

I cannot today speak for the others in this list; but, I am sure that you will find that Chafer and Scofield did not teach the Mid Acts teaching that you follow.

Here are a couple of good web sites which discuss Classic Pauline Dispensationalism:

http://withchrist.org/pauldisp.htm

http://assemblyquest.blogspot....alist-questions.html

But, Mid, regardless of when you believe the Church Age began -- we are brothers in Christ. And, I enjoy having dialogues with you. Let's keep teaming to share the Word of God -- and encourage even more believers to join us.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:

So, no, Jesus Christ was not being harsh. He was being truthful that, if a person truly wants to follow Christ -- he must lay aside all worldly things and come follow Him.
God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill


So, Bill, you've laid aside all earthly things? Given up your wife and family, have you?
Hey Jank... great post!!

Like I stated, Jesus told us(and our founding fathers concurred), that charity should be a moral obligation to all men and women who have, to give to those who have not. Our founding fathers actually harped on that a ton. Charity is a fantastic thing!! For those of us who have plenty to share with those who do not is not only "nice" and "kind"... it should be in our souls as a MUST. If we are to be Christ-like, we should have a GIVING heart... there is no doubt about any of that.

HOWEVER!!! This thread originated from someone trying to use charity as a reason for us not to complain about unfair taxation. TAXATION HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH CHARITY!!! Can everyone get on board with that FACT!? If so, we can have a very intelligent discussion on this topic. An overbearing government stealing our earnings to spread as they see fit has ZERO to do with charity. Forced charity is not moral, nore has it every proven to be an effective economic model for a country. The government should let us keep OUR money to do with as we see fit. Then to reap those Heavenly rewards, we WILLFULLY give to those who need our help.

That's as simple as I can explain it... If you don't understand that then I don't know what to tell you.
Thank you Peter,

However I do believe the point is that if you wish to be a more christ like christian then you would not only endorse the governments attempt to help the poor through combined taxes, you would insist on it. If there were more charitable people in this country there would be no need for welfare. Sadly there are not.

Jesus attitude on the subject was give till it hurt and then give some more.

Which do you hold dearer, your religion or your country? Just wondering since you seem to blend the two together all the time. I am trying to understand your point of view.
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Hi Mid,

You tell me, "Bill, As you know, all scripture is for us, but not all scripture is to us."

True, there are specific Scripture passages in the Old Testament written to specific individuals or group which were intended just for them. Yet, even in those, there are lessons for all Christian believers. Yet, we find that the prophecies in the Old Testament, while having a near term fulfillment -- also had a longer term fulfillment. Some still to be fulfilled even to this day.

Then, you say, "Jesus offered the long prophesied kingdom to the Jews at his first advent. That offering is recorded in the synoptics (also in John's gospel and the first few chapters of Acts). Jesus told the Jews that the kingdom of heaven (or kingdom of God) was at hand. If the Jews had accepted Him as the King, the son of David, then the Christ would have set up the kingdom of heaven at that time. That is, the millennium would have begun."

Yes, Jesus came to the Jews first; but, there is little doubt that His omniscient intent was salvation for all people who would believe. And, the writings of the four Gospels and Acts was initially aimed at Jewish believers -- because, initially, the first believers were Jewish converts from Judaism. There were Greeks and others who had converted to Judaism; but, then converted to Christianity. But, virtually all the first Christians were Jewish.

But, no, I will have to say that the four Gospels, Acts, and all the Epistles and Revelation were written for all believers; even though the initial believers were Jews.

Did Jesus have an intent to establish His Millennial Kingdom at that time? No. Keep in mind that God is omniscient; knowing all things. God cannot be surprised; so, He knew exactly what would happen when Jesus Christ became God Incarnate. It was as though the had the full script for the Play Eternal in His hands as He, the Producer, and Jesus Christ, the Director -- went about the business of bringing the New Covenant of Grace to His people; all of His people.

Next, you tell me, "Remember, Jesus told them not to go in the way of the Gentiles and Peter, even in the book of acts was still following that admonition."

Yes, even though Peter was a Christian believer and had been indwelled and empowered by the Holy Spirit -- he was still Jewish. And, at the house of Simon the Tanner, the Spirit of God had to teach him that all people are the same to Him. That was the lesson of the animals Peter was told to eat in his dream.

Once God showed Peter His desires; Peter did not hesitate to go into the Roman officers home and convert his entire family.

And, Peter still reverted to his Jewish beliefs at times, such as when he wanted Gentile converts to be circumcised -- and Paul challenged him.

Romans 1:16, "For I am not ashamed of the Gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek."

Galatians 3:28, "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus."

Yes, initially the Greeks, i.e., the Gentiles (meaning all non-Jews) were pagan -- but, once they converted to Christianity, there was no difference.

You tell us, "When the Jews officially rejected the kingdom gospel (at the stoning of Stephen I think) God raised up Paul and the dispensations changed. Paul preached the gospel of the grace of God and salvation was conditioned on faith alone to both Jews and Gentiles. This began the church age or the dispensation of the church. It will last until the rapture and then God will resume his program with Israel and complete the 70th week of Daniel's 70 wk. prophecy and culminate, after the 7th wk (also know as the tribulation), in the millennial, prophesied kingdom on earth."

I have to disagree with you. The Church Age began, in Acts 2, when the first Jews became indwelled, born again Christians. The first were the 120 in the Upper Room; then, the 3000 when Peter and the apostles preached to the people of Jerusalem who had been attracted by the noise of the Holy Spirit coming upon the 120 new Christians. This was the Day of Pentecost; 50 days after His resurrection, 10 days after His ascension into heaven. That began the Church Age -- and it will end with the Rapture of the church.

True, the Tribulation is primarily for the redemption of His remnant of Jews; yet, many millions of Gentiles will be saved during the Tribulation also. And, when He returns after the seven year Tribulation -- He will establish His Millennial Kingdom. This was His plan all along. For, as we all know -- God cannot be surprised. "Oops!" is not in His vocabulary.

Finally, you tell us, "I hope y'all don't think I'm into a weird form of interpretation. I'm a student of Darby, Chafer, Scofield, Walvoord, and Ryrie. Many refer to us as Pauline classic dispensationalists."

I cannot today speak for the others in this list; but, I am sure that you will find that Chafer and Scofield did not teach the Mid Acts teaching that you follow.

Here are a couple of good web sites which discuss Classic Pauline Dispensationalism:

http://withchrist.org/pauldisp.htm

http://assemblyquest.blogspot....alist-questions.html

But, Mid, regardless of when you believe the Church Age began -- we are brothers in Christ. And, I enjoy having dialogues with you. Let's keep teaming to share the Word of God -- and encourage even more believers to join us.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill


Bill, good reading.

Even though I picked "midacts" as my screen name, I'm not entirely sold on it. However, for the last 3 or 4 years I've been been looking into it and have found it somewhat favorable. Like Schofield and Chafer (all those theologians I named) I remain an Acs 2 guy.

I have found that the mid-acts position explains a lot of things that the acts 2 position does not. For example, the question that CrustyMac asked you about giving up your family and following Jesus can easily be explained by pointing out that that admonishion was never given to the church, but was part of the gospel of the kingdom. There are many other inconsistencies that are explained on the basis of keeping the gospel of the kingdom and the Pauline gospel separate. Even though I've been an Acts 2 dispensationalist for now over 40 years I am being drawn to the mid Acts postion-- that for the last 3 to 5 years.

I'm familiar with the withChrist.org site and also Miles Stanford has had a great influence on me over the years. There is a connection between withChrist.org and Mr. Sanford.

Thanks for you kind words, Bill.

Resting in Him,

midacts
Last edited by midacts
quote:
Originally posted by Peter Rielly:

HOWEVER!!! This thread originated from someone trying to use charity as a reason for us not to complain about unfair taxation. TAXATION HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH CHARITY!!! Can everyone get on board with that FACT!? If so, we can have a very intelligent discussion on this topic. An overbearing government stealing our earnings to spread as they see fit has ZERO to do with charity. Forced charity is not moral, nore has it every proven to be an effective economic model for a country. The government should let us keep OUR money to do with as we see fit. Then to reap those Heavenly rewards, we WILLFULLY give to those who need our help.

That's as simple as I can explain it... If you don't understand that then I don't know what to tell you.


Peter,

Not to harp on this, but I did go back and read what EG posted and this is what it says.

"You want to make me happy? Sell everything you own. That includes your nice house, your iPod, your golf clubs and that gas guzzling SUV you drive.

Give all the money to the poor, whether you think they deserve it or not.

Spend less money on yourself and your children and more money helping people that need help!

At least stop whining about your tax money going to help the poor.

If you live a comfortable life now, don't expect one when you die.

I am not a capitalist. I am not American either. And I'm not okay with bombing anyone, even terrorists,"

So basically the tax part was an after thought. It said at "least" stop whining about your tax dollars going to help the poor.

What about the rest? If you just take out the part about taxes all together. You don't believe that these are the things that jesus taught and stood for. Seemed to me that jesus was all about helping the poor. It was one of his pet peeves it seemed.

Do you feel as a christian that you have done the things that he ask you to do when it comes to helping the poor?

I have always had this problem with folks telling me that they are christians and that they believe in jesus christ and his teachings and then pick and choose which bits of his teachings they are actually willing to follow. How can any christian who says and does these things expect the rest of us to take them seriously when they do not seem to take their own beliefs and religion seriously?

If you don't mind try and leave your politics out of this. I hate to talk politics. It gets uglier than discussing religion and I sincerely don't want to have a big ol argument.

I hope you don't either. Smiler
Jank...
Yes.. I belive Jesus wants us to be giving... and yes, I blend spirituality and politics for one simple reason... SO DID OUR FOUNDING FATHERS!!! lol... It's that simple here. We should not call for our government to take from the rich to give to the poor... King Barry Obama AIN'T FREAKIN Robin Hood, and neither is any other president that has lived, or any future ones. Charity ALWAYS trumps "redistribution of wealth" by the government.. ALWAYS!!! 49% of our country doesnt pay income tax on a federal level now... 49 FREAKIN PERCENT!! Wow!! Must mean there are no more poor people now!!! YAY!!!... What?? There are?? lol
Look at welfare stats. Too much to type here, just google it. Start thinking about those individual people... How many of them cant help the situation they are in and how many, not only caused their situation, but continually choose every day to not better it? THAT is what is immoral.. Taking from those of us who put in the effort to bring in money to take care of our families, only to forcably have a portion taken from us to give to those who don't make that same attempt. Now I'm rambling.. lol.. I am very passionate about this issue. This is a common sense issue. The government does don't know how to spend my money better than I do outside of providing for the common defense. That's it... that is all our founding fathers set up this government to provide for us. It sounds mean... but it's about PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY, and the more we collectively rely on the gov't to take care of what we should be personally responsible for, the more the gov't expands it's power over our day to day lives. Claiming the "moral high ground" as a reason to raise taxes comes from a sewer of pure evil.... just check history of some of the "great" communist nations over history. They all began with class warfare... the rich are too rich, so the gov't will take from them to spread around.... After studying those "great" communist nations, ask yourself, why do they always crumble and fall away?

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