John 3:16

.

 "how can anyone just quote one sentenence stop and make up a whole

doctrine with an isolated verse"?

Why not, billie has done that all through the Bible.

OSAS. has been proven with one verse---John 6: 47

So there you go.

Hi all,

So far, we have heard from a Roman Catholic who will only huff, puff, bluster, and make unsupported claims -- all the while calling all who disagree with him names.

And, we have another person who is ASHAMED  of his church affiliation.

If we can get any reasonable people in this discussion -- maybe then there can be a somewhat intelligent dialogue.   Until then, I have more important things to do.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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#7 and #9.  Why even respond at all?

I have long wondered about your ability to communicate and to participate in an intelligent dialogue -- but, this goes a few steps beyond.   This moves into the Twilight Zone.  You are asking me to respond to my own post?   That is confusing enough.   But, there are no questions in my statement which even require a response.

It would seem that you are so intent upon calling all who are not Roman Catholic liars -- that you do not even bother to read the posts.  You just start huffing, puffing, and crying, "Liar!" -- when you have no idea what the dialogue is all about. 

Vic, my Friend, I do believe you need a rest.  Take two aspirin and call your priest in the morning.

Bless your heart!

Bill

Greetings Vic and fellow forum members.  I too know that there are many verses that are pulled out of Scripture context at times and use for various purposes which are often not the exact purpose of the writer who originally wrote the scriptures.  In this particular passage and chapter we have words attributed to Christ Himself written down for those of us to follow to hear and read.  

While there are many who do not believe scripture is God's word at all there are also those that differ in interpretation and while some Scriptures I believe God can use in varying ways depending on what He wants to Impart unto specific Christians through His Holy Spirit other sections are seemingly plain and not as much open to interpretations.   It is also no secret that various denominations are whom they are based upon their own beliefs and opinions as to Scripture and how it correlates with the Churches teachings.  That said I would like to insert just a few of my own personal beliefs/opinions about the Scripture passage for CONSIDERATION and discussion. 

While I do, personally, see divisions of thought within this Chapter I also see a common theme and that is of Salvation for Mankind.  The first section of this chapter I see as verses 1-21 and contains several thoughts within that section.  First the dialog between Christ and Nicodemus reveals for us not only the need for Salvation but the source of mankind's Salvation.  It is also the revelation of two areas of life or two dimensions, one  fleshly and of this world and the other Spiritual and of the Spiritual afterlife, after the Physical life ceases. 

vs 3 I see as Christ expression that Salvation is essential/necessary for mankind to satisfy God and experience the afterlife in God's presence/Heaven. 

vs 5-6 is where the distinction of mankind's earthly physical existence (the body) is contrasted with mankind's unique creation of our spirit/soul entity.  Christ here reveals that there are things that belong to the physical world/nature and that mankind has a spirit/soul that is of the Spiritual realm just as God exist within the Spiritual Realm apart from the Physical. 

vs 10 is where Christ acknowledges that Nicodemus was knowledgeable in the Old Testament or Scriptures up to that time.  That from those same writings he should have been able to realize who Christ was and why he was there but that knowledge wasn't sufficient for Salvation. 

vs 12 I see as Christ simply saying that the things that should be simple and evident from the scriptures he has, teaches and knows yet they are seemingly difficult to conceive so why should he expect to be able to comprehend the infinitely greater and much more complicated things of God and that has to do with Heaven that are not evident from Scripture, at least at that point in time?

vs 13, 14, & 15 Christ explains to Nicodemus just what is the path to Salvation and eternity with God in Heaven, Spiritual Salvation for mankind that is.  Christ, God come to earth in man's flesh, has to be Crucified, Sacrificed and mankind accept and believe on that Sacrifice of Christ on the Cross in the same way that people obtained physical salvation/healing from the judgment from the snake bites looking on Moses as he held up the serpent for healing only where with Moses it was physical healing with Christ it was Spiritual healing of Salvation from our sins and sinful nature.  In one case it was Salvation from Physical death the latter (Christ) from Spiritual death. 

vs 16 essentially the reason God allowed Salvation for man and the Method by which it came.  Reason was unmerited LOVE and the method was God's son or effectively God's Spirit/God in Human Flesh dwelling among earthly Mankind.  

vs 17 The reason Christ came, this time, was to bring Salvation and not Judgment or Condemnation of Mankind.  Now is not the Judgment of mankind but the offer of Salvation of clemency, of Justification.

I have separated vs 18 because here while I agree with you I believe I differ on one aspect.  Where I do very much believe in predestination I do not agree that it applies to mankind in that certain of us are predetermined to be saved while others are not.  I do very much believe that whosoever means whoever believes and accepts God's offer of Salvation.  What I do believe was predestined long ago was the process by which Salvation would be obtained.   I believe that Christ is telling us that at some point in time past God pre-determined that there would be judgment upon Sin, mankind's sin and the sins of angels and others.  But also pre-determined would be the way of escape and the way of Justification and forgiveness from the verdict/Judgment upon sin and that also includes the process by which that Justification was to come.  God pre-determined that He, through Christ, would offer the only acceptable perfect blood sacrifice to atone for mankind's sins against Him.  Pre-determined that whoever looked to Christ, looked upon Christ, as their Savior and Sacrifice could find Salvation from Spiritual Death, the penalty upon Sin that was set forth long ago.   Also revealed within verse 18 was the fact that the penalty or judgement upon Sin was there before mankind and that mankind is and was condemned all along and that the penalty and judgment upon sin rest on mankind's head from birth and only those who accept Christ Sacrifice remove themselves from that verdict by taking Christ shed blood as their Sacrifice for their sins.  For those that do not accept that or look upon Christ then nothing else is there that can take away that verdict that resides upon them for they already stand condemned awaiting Judgment.   Until that Judgment or the moment when they are no longer able to make that decision with their mental ability  (physical death) then they can choose to accept the only provided sacrifice for mankind's sins (Jesus Christ).

vs 19-21 simply contrast light and darkness ... knowledge to ignorance and being Saved to not being Saved.    The evil nature of mankind is revealed and acknowledged that it is abhorrent to God's nature by it's own virtue and being.  It is a question of where your priorities are and revelation that there is a way of escape available but that mankind has a choice and a decision to make and the ability to make that decision in and of themselves.  And lastly that for those who have made that decision to accept Christ that their Salvation is not of themselves nor anything they have done by act or deed but rather by God's provision.  Our Salvation is of and by God's own merit and Goodness and out of His own Love. 

Again regarding predestination I believe it is the way of Salvation that was predetermined and not the specific individuals that would obtain salvation. 

Ephesians 1:5 (ESV)
5   he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,
Ephesians 1:11 (ESV)
11  In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,
Ephesians 2:10 (ESV)
10  For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

&

Romans 8:28-30 (ESV)
28  And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.
29  For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
30  And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Romans 10:12-13 (NIV)
12  For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile--the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him,
13  for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

I also believe that God Calls people and enables them for Salvation.  For those that seek God I do believe that God will enable them, call them, via His Holy Spirit and that a person must be Spiritually enabled to understand their Spiritual needs and the available sacrifice that is there for them and at that moment God convicts/calls them for their decision.  I do not believe that mankind can just be guaranteed that the call will come when they so desire it.   That a person can wait until their last breath and be guaranteed that God will respond with a call when they desire it so I believe it is very important for mankind to respond when God Calls and Spiritually enables them by His Holy Spirit.  That is my personal belief and I could be wrong but I believe scripture backs up that belief.

John 6:63-65 (NIV)
63  The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.
64  Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.
65  He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."

John 6:37 (NLT)
37  However,those the Father has given me will come to me, and I will never reject them.

Now I also believe that there are specific individuals also that are predestined by God for a specific purpose and called by Him for a specific purpose.  John the Baptist being one of those persons.  As for others I am not confident in changing my opinion regarding Salvation in general for I do believe that the Bible and Scripture is consistent throughout it's whole and therefore to discover the meaning of a dis****ble topic we can look for answers and clarification in other books and from other writers or dialog of those who were there and sat under Christ teaching.  I will admit though that there are scriptures that can be used for both opinions and views but I deeply feel and believe that Salvation is open to all, to whosoever but that it is so critical and precious that when presented to a non-believer and non-saved person that they should be so very careful to consider the opportunity given and presented unto them and not reject the time that God enables or calls them. 

I specifically liked the statement that I believe Dwight Moody said regarding Predestination and Salvation.  It went something like this, but not exact  "Preach the Gospel to everyone and if by some miracle you happen to save someone who was not elect then I'm sure God will forgive me".  Essentially it is not my place to judge/determine who is and who is not capable of being saved. 

That's how I interpret and see John Chapter 3 and the context of Salvation.  I'm sure that differs from some but that is the way I see it and why i believe it is that way.

There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: Nicodemus was a Pharisee, not only that but one of elevated status "a ruler of the Jew" most likely a member of the Sanhedrin.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanhedrin  He would have been educated in the the Pharisee's oral law since early childhood.  The oral law that they said was given to Moses and passed down word of mouth generation to generation.  Jesus continually countered their oral traditions by quoting God's word as written without the spin they put on it.

Unlike the Sadducees, the Pharisees also believed in the resurrection of the dead in a future, messianic age. The Pharisees believed in a literal resurrection of the body http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharisees this helps explain Nicodemus's later words "How can a man be born when he is old?"

The same came to Jesus by night, I've heard varius comments on why Nicodemus visited Jesus at night.  One is that he did not want to be seen speaking with Jesus because of his position.  Keep in mind that Jesus during the day was thronged with people who wanted healing.  Most likely the evening was the only time Nicodemus could have a private conversation with Jesus.

and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.  This statement says volumes about Nicodemus's state of mind.  He unlike most of his peers recognized that God was the power behind the miracles.  While he did not yet know Jesus as the Messiah he knew he was a great teacher or a Rabbi.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabbi  Nicodemus was being drawn by the Holy Spirit to be a future believer.  He had a teachable mind however confused.  Jesus was teaching doctrine new to him and he wanted to know more.

Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.  Jesus dive right into the subject he wants to convey.  Kingdom of God was a Jewish term for Israel.  Most think being born again was a new concept to Nicodemus, it was not.  The jews called it being "born anew"  and it was a naturalization process by which a non jew (greek or otherwies called a gentile) could be admitted into the Kingdom of God (Israel).  Besides leaving all you had behind in the country of birth including wife and children if they would not come you were required to:  1. Males had to be circumcised, 2. be washed in water, 3. make an offering of a turtle dove or two young pigeons in the temple.  Now Nicodemus was a born jew he did not need to be born again (or born anew in his mind.)  So his next words now come into clearer focus:

Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?  Nicodemus knew that if he had to be born again it did not involve the proselyte process requred of a non jew thus his question "can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?  Remeber Nicodemus's idea of the afterlife (like all Pharisee's) is a literal one.  He does not yet know the coming Kingdom is spiritual not literal.

more later.....   

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#9 and #6

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Bill has taken the Eternal tthing & run with it, turning it into his OSAS theory. He totally ignores  those scriptures that say otherwise. One is in Psalm’s where it says “Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous”.

You gotta be in there if you can be taken out. Kinda blows Billy's OSAS out of the water, don't it?

I know I've missed some things and I don't want to appear dense but I'm confused as to what is the meaning of #9 and #6?  I have seen you post numbers like that several places but fail to see the significance?  Maybe it's just me and I am dense (today).

See the topic, "Bill's New Numbering System".

Sorry, try "Bill's New Posting System 1.3", or if you want to see the evolution of the system and old discussions, "Bill's New Posting System".

I've said this before and I'll say it again: Listen to Gbrk.

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Billie-je, you complain about me calling you a liar. The reason I do

is because you have been proven beyond any doubt you are a liar.

And you will tell some of the lies you have been proven wrong.

Over and over and over and over again. Tell me a lie.

gbrk> "Again regarding predestination I believe it is the way of Salvation that was predetermined and not the specific individuals that would obtain salvation."

i absolutely agree.

The way one is saved has never changed. We are saved by believing, the method of atonement has not changed, God supplies it, be it the shadow of the temple sacrifices or the actual shed blood of Jesus Christ to which temple worship pointed.

Ro 8:29  For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Ro 8:30  Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

It does not say what he did foreknow .  but whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his son,......     so how is it one is conformed to the image of Jesus?

Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called.  This certainly is not a system of salvation that is being discussed.

Without predestination no one would be saved because no one would believe.   Natural man does worship but he invents his own religion apart from or by twisting God's word.

Pr 21:2  Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts.

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While you are about the business of installing a Calvinistic spin on John 3:16, you might also consider what to do with this: :

Acts 17

²⁴ God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;

²⁵ Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

²⁶ And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

²⁷ That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us.

How does your Calvinistic theology reckon with this characterization of God by the apostle Paul?

If indeed God  "be not far from every one of us", then how could He possibly be as distant a as Calvinistic theology (the so-called but egregiously mis-named "doctrines of grace") would teach.  The doctrine of election and reprobation (predestination) teaches that there are persons who, from before man was created, were consigned by God to a state of irrevocable and eternal condemnation, with no hope whatsoever from being spared the eternal torment of hell.  That state is as distant from salvation, or from any hope whatsoever for salvation, as it could possibly be. Nowhere in Calvinistic doctrine is there any divine grace available to these hopelessly and eternally doomed "reprobates" . Their goose has been cooked from before time began.  Yet the  apostle, writing under divine inspiration, says that God is   "...not far from every one of us."

What is there about "not far from every one of us" that you do not understand?

Gosh, Vic.......can you believe that Bill thinks you actually share his inability to communicate & participate in an intelligent dialogue?

INVICTUS--I don't know what your Pope  and your Magisterium and your vast body of Catholic tradition say about this swearing of oaths, but my Bible tells me that Jesus strongly condemned the very kind of swearing that you are asking Bill to do. Hers is what JESUS said about swearing:

³⁴ But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:

³⁵ Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.

³⁶ Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.

³⁷ But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.

Now INVICTUS, if the Lord Jesus Christ forbids swearing by one's head, surely He would take an even dimmer view of someone swearing by his/her eternal soul, wouldn't he?

I hope that you do not hear from Bill or anyone else who might be considering responding affirmatively to your absurd and unholy demand,

But maybe, just maybe, there is somewhere in all that Popery and tradition and Magisterium , some creative interpretation of this teaching by Jesus that would turn it on its head and let people swear on their very souls to God, contrary to the prohibition Jesus Himself laid on that practice. 

Wouldn't surprise me at all, given the hermeneutical and theological sleights-of-hand that the Muthah Church has performed over the ages behind her cover of holy smoke and mirrors.

.

Now Contendah

Matt 5: 33

 "Again you have heard that it was said to your ancestors, 'Do not take a

false oath, but make good to the Lord all that you vow.'

I'm saying I can ask God as my witness and still be safe because I'm

truthful in what I say. You can't because you lie and you back up a liar.

Your whole clique is a hate cult.

You couldn't be more rude and disrespectful.

You wonder why I fire back at y'all like I do. 

Atta boy invictus.

From the angry pen of the rattled INVICTUS

Now Contendah

Matt 5: 33

 "Again you have heard that it was said to your ancestors, 'Do not take a

false oath, but make good to the Lord all that you vow.'

I'm saying I can ask God as my witness and still be safe because I'm

truthful in what I say. You can't because you lie and you back up a liar.

Your whole clique is a hate cult.

You couldn't be more rude and disrespectful.

You wonder why I fire back at y'all like I do. 

______________________

You are firing back, INVICTUS but you are shooting blanks,.

God is omnipresent.  Thus He is “witness” to all that is said or done, including the forbidden taking of oaths upon heaven, the throne of God, upon the earth that is the footstool of God’s feet;  upon Jerusalem, “the city of the great King;” or upon one’s own  head.(v. 33)  The entire theme of that instruction is reinforced in the next verse, where Jesus sets forth the Divine standard for all oath-taking, namely,  But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.  He is not forbidding oath taking, per se, but is setting forth the Divine standard that governs the practice, namely that a Christian does not need to, and is forbidden to, reinforce his words with any oath or any appeal for heaven to witness, or by any other device to underscore the truth of his remarks.

Thus, swearing by one’s immortal soul clearly violates Jesus’s prohibition against invoking factors to secure the oath beyond the personal pledge inherent in the oath itself.

You cite Matthew 5:33 as somehow in contradiction to what I am asserting about your notion of swearing on one’s soul, but in doing so, you are playing an apples and oranges game, INVICTUS. That verse is simply forbidding the taking of false, lying oaths and says nothing about whether an oath may be secured with reference to factors beyond the oath itself. Verses 34-37 strictly forbid the embellishment of a person’s oath by invoking God, the earth,Jerusalem, or one’s own head as security for performance of the oath. That is why I would caution Bill, you, and everyone else NOT to take any oath which is pledged upon one’s immortal soul or upon any other such precious or holy thing.  For your own good, I certainly hope such forbidden oath taking is not any part of your personal practice in your relationships with God and man.

And then, our Lord and Savior Bre'r Rabbit quoteth: Please don't throw me in that there brian patch.

And thus he was thrown.  Glory and salvation for all Remusites was ensured, and peace be upon Bre'r Fox and the Sanhedrin regardless of their trespasses.

sheesh.

DF

You have attaboyed irrelevant tripe, but that is understandable, since much of what you post is of similar value.  See above for why your attaboy is just plumb dumb.

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I posted it because he gave your mess back to you. Funny thing, you sure hang on my every word for it to all be "plumb dumb". I know you don't like it when I get "uppity" with you, but get used to it, you don't impress me. 

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What INVICTUS "gave back" was irrelevant and insulting prattle.  Your chronic problem is that you are unable to discern between that and meaningful dialogue.  

Pfttttttttt, as if you ever have "meaningful dialogue". Invictus stands up for his church, and he shouldn't "answer to" you, bill, or anyone else.

Funny watching supposedly educated folks arguing over whose magick is stronger/more correct.

I LOL mightily at the lot of yas.

But you gotta admit, you can't help but love invictus' attitude. Reminds me of skippy's "grace under fire."

While I often disagree with Contendah on issues pertaining to our Christian faith; I do have to agree with him on this.  Vic rants and raves, huffs and puffs a lot -- but, seldom, if ever, posts anything other than that.  He rants and raves about his church's traditions and doctrines -- but, the only proof he offers of any validity are his huffs and puffs.  

He offers no valid Scriptural proof.   Although he will, at times, pull Scripture out of the air -- and claim that it says what he wants to hear.  Yet, if virtually every case -- he is speaking pure apples and oranges.

A good example is when he keeps screaming that John 6 speaks of the Lord's Supper, what he calls the Eucharist.   We find Him establishing the Lord's Supper in Luke 22:19, "And when He had taken some bread and given thanks, He broke it and gave it to them, saying, 'This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me.' "   

And, in John 6, we see Jesus comparing the manna God sent from heaven to sustain the Israelites in the wilderness -- to the "spiritual life" God sent through His Son, Jesus Christ, to sustain and offer eternal life to all who will, by grace, through faith in Jesus Christ, believe and receive this "free gift."

Yet, Vic and VP will both squeeze their eyes closed and keep repeating, "John 6 is the Eucharist!  John 6 is the Eucharist!" -- when it clearly is not.

So, Jennifer, what you call "Vic standing up for his church" -- could more aptly be described as Vic embarrassing all serious Roman Catholics.

Ranting and screaming is never a way to participate in a civil dialogue.  If Vic has valid observation, and hopefully proof, of the Roman Catholic doctrines and traditions -- let him offer it.  But, huffing and puffing only makes him and the Roman Catholic religion look foolish.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Another #6.  Save yourself some valuable time.  Embrace the system.