An absolutely incredible read. Thanks for the link and heads up.

To the People of the United States:
You are no longer the masters of your own destiny. By your selfish attitudes toward politics and politicians, you have repeatedly elected the same officials year after year who have sold themselves like prostitutes to big business and foreign entities. These politicians promise to "give" you something in exchange for your vote. Well they have. They have given you foreign masters, unsurmountable debts, and sold you into economic slavery. BOTH parties are guilty, and continue these destructive policies even as we speak.

There is a word the American people are about to learn the meaning of; austerity. That means "hard times".
quote:
Originally posted by dolemitejb:
It continues to sadden me that people who are instinctively on the right track - the track of seeing how horrible our political system is - get wrapped up in this Alex Jones nonsense. They end up missing the target on several major points.


Dolomite,
I think the fundamental difference in our philosophy is that you as a lebertarian believes that the unregulated free market will cure itself. To believe that you must put your faith in human nature. In 1999, Phil Gramm got a piece of legislation passed that deregulated wall street and took the regulation of the past away. This deregulation lead us to a stock market collapse and most of the economic prblems we face now. Human nature, left without a mechanism of control, will always devolve to evil and tyranny.

We must have just laws, and just regulation with punishment that completely strips those of acts like we are seeing of their freedoms AND their ill gotten gains. Any CEO or money manager on WallStreet convicted of fraud should be personally liable to the population as a whole. Meaning, we should be able to sue for our individual losses and reclaim them.
quote:
I think the fundamental difference in our philosophy is that you as a lebertarian believes that the unregulated free market will cure itself. To believe that you must put your faith in human nature. In 1999, Phil Gramm got a piece of legislation passed that deregulated wall street and took the regulation of the past away. This deregulation lead us to a stock market collapse and most of the economic prblems we face now. Human nature, left without a mechanism of control, will always devolve to evil and tyranny.


I could go on for a while about this, but for now I will keep it basic. You basically identified my beliefs correctly. I don't, however, "put my faith in human nature." I think people are self interested and act accordingly, but that can only go so far before it stops being in the self interest of others to voluntarily associate/do business with you. Additionally, the unregulated free market is literally that - unregulated. The '99 "deregulations" weren't real degregulation. They removed some barriers that allowed Wall Street to make more money, but didn't remove the safety net that allows them to gamble with government support. That type of excessive risk would never exist in an unregulated free market. Correction, it might exist, but not on a grand scale. No one would go for it if the government wasn't standing behind them with bags full of printed money.

Simply put, the problem I have with your line of thought is that you still want an all powerful government that can force the bad guys to be nice. When you concentrate that kind of power, the bad guys just figure out of way to get on the inside.
quote:
Any CEO or money manager on WallStreet convicted of fraud should be personally liable to the population as a whole. Meaning, we should be able to sue for our individual losses and reclaim them.


This, by the way, is a good way to illustrate where I split from so many people. Good, honest people often favor more laws because they believe those laws will make the world better. They don't think about the consequences of additional burdensome red tape. In almost all of these cases, simply removing an existing government regulation would suffice. In your example, all you're really saying is that limited liability goes too far in protecting the wealth of those who cause problems. I agree - no new law needed, just get rid of limited liability.
quote:
Originally posted by dolemitejb:
It continues to sadden me that people who are instinctively on the right track - the track of seeing how horrible our political system is - get wrapped up in this Alex Jones nonsense. They end up missing the target on several major points.


Alex Jones gets more right than you give him credit for.
quote:
Originally posted by dolemitejb:
quote:
Any CEO or money manager on WallStreet convicted of fraud should be personally liable to the population as a whole. Meaning, we should be able to sue for our individual losses and reclaim them.


This, by the way, is a good way to illustrate where I split from so many people. Good, honest people often favor more laws because they believe those laws will make the world better. They don't think about the consequences of additional burdensome red tape. In almost all of these cases, simply removing an existing government regulation would suffice. In your example, all you're really saying is that limited liability goes too far in protecting the wealth of those who cause problems. I agree - no new law needed, just get rid of limited liability.


If they were faced with the confiscation of their personal wealth, they would indeed act differently.
Case in point: The chief financial officer if HealthSouth got only a few months in prison for embezzling millions and bilking investors. That prison was a "White Collar" prison. I heard his testimony a few months ago that he stated he went fishing most everyday, and was allowed to ship in exotic foods like lobster.
If a poor black kid from the city shop lifted $25 at Wal-Mart he would get more time in a real jail.

It has always been an unwritten rule, the rich can steal, and it isn't stealing. The poor steal and it's a shameful crime. Also, it's an unwritten rule that the rich are just too delicate to go to prison, therefore we have seperate prisons for the rich.

It's time to treat a million dollar theif as a theif. Confiscate his wealth, and put him in with the boys who show him what a bar of soap is for.

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