Just a teeny bit of Calvinism

You tell us, "Many who consider themselves forgiven sinners will sin with the feeling of impunity, believing their salvation is sealed and there is nothing they can do to change it.  They are living under a delusion."
When, in John 6:47, Jesus told us, "He who believes HAS eternal life" -- is that a delusion?
When, in John 10:28-29 Jesus tells us, "And I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.  My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand" -- is that a delusion?

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Bill, if you feel that you can live a rebellious lifestyle against God and still expect him to save and keep you, then you are under a serious delusion. I stand by that. There is no seal or security in Christ that can give us confidence of salvation while we live in wilfull and unrepentant sin. There is no seal that can keep us saved if we at some point choose to live in rebellion against God. You said earlier that if a person is living in rebellious sin, then they are not a child of God. So you cannot have it both ways here.

In one of your scriptures you left out an essential part of what Jesus was saying. You should have included the whole thought of what Jesus was saying as follows:

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:  And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.  My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.  

Jesus described here just who his children are. Only those who hear the voice of Christ and follow him are his children. I have confidence that Jesus has not only saved me, but that he will keep me in his salvation. But my confidence is not in some past confession several years back, but in the reality of my present commitment to Christ as my Savior and Lord. I have confidence that Jesus will guide me, and will give me the grace and strength to follow him wherever he leads. My trust in not in my own ability, but in Christ's ability to sustain me. God will not allow me to be tempted more than I am able to bear. Whatever he calls me to do, he will give me grace to do. If I begin to take a path of error, he will warn me and correct me. I have confidence that Jesus has not only saved me but that he will continue to keep me in his salvation. But I am saved by faith, and faith is not a one time event, but it is a continual faithful and devoted walk with God. Those who are truly saved will endure to the end. They may stray for a time in weakness, but they will repent and turn back to following Christ. I would be a fool to think that I could go my own way and that Christ would keep me in his saving grace. Those who are truly God's children will hear his voice and follow him. Only they can have assurance that Jesus will keep them.

Lord is not a title, but it is a commitment to follow Christ wherever he leads. Those who truly make that commitment need not worry. Christ is more than able to keep those who commit their heart and life to him. However, I also accept the idea that a person can be lost. I believe it is a warning for those who haven't truly committed their heart and life to Christ as both Savior and Lord. God knows the end from the beginning, but men can be fooled and live under a delusion of reality. Many people claim to know Jesus as Lord, but when the tests come they fall away. There are only two ways of looking at it. They were either never saved, or they were saved and lost. I can accept either view. But there are clear warnings for those who believe they are somehow sealed and can do as they please and remain saved. We have an obligation to follow Christ all the way if we desire to be saved. Consider the following scriptures.

James 5:19-20 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

2 Peter 1:10-11 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things, (things representing growing and walking in the Christian faith) you will never stumble; for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Luke 8:13 "But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

2 Peter 2:20-22 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: "A dog returns to his own vomit," and, "a sow, having washed, to her wallowing.

Bill, I don't believe that you would intentionally tell anybody that they can live in wilfull sin and have assurance of salvation. Yet, if you tell somebody that once they believe in Jesus and confess him as Lord,  then they are sealed by the Holy Spirit, and no matter how they live they will remain saved, then you have contradicted yourself. If they truly accept Christ as Lord, then I accept that as true. But not all who claim Jesus as Savior and Lord are God's true children. The trials that come will test their commitment to see if it was real. So to put your trust in some seal while living in rebellious sin against God, is trusting in a delusion of reality. Only those who truly hear and follow Christ are his children.  They are the ones that can have security that Christ will keep them. I hope we can agree on that.

Extra, maybe off subject, but it was a Hebrew law, that if a wife was barren

she could give him a servant to produce a child to carry on his name.

As was the part of Hagar. Would you consider Ishmael illigitmate?

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 Yes, and God did as well, rejecting him as Abraham's legal heir.  "In Isaac shall thy seed be called". 

 The Law of which you spoke may have a been a cultural law at the time, but was not a part of God's law. Abraham's action, though agreed by Sarah, was adultery.  Abraham paid for it thru the grief that he suffered. You notice he never did it again, as well as David.

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Extra, I don't believe Ishael would be considered illegitimate, it was a

common practice for the wife to give the husband a bond maid for

a male child to carry the on the name. It wasn't looked upon as

illegitmate and God sent Hagar back to sarah.

This wasn't adultery at the time and had nothing to do with David.

Totally different thing with David.

No, Abram didn't do it again, he was already very old. The point

God made, if he said your 87 year old wife was going to have a

child, plan a shower.

My, my. I remember bestworking saying that even if she didn't believe the Bible was true, she wanted to know what it said...just as she would the plot of a Harry Potter novel. So, if those last few verses don't teach falling from grace, I don't know what would, even if I didn't believe the veracity of the teaching itself.

In example, I'm sure A. Robustus or our illustrious former forum poster Jimmi Hendrix knew enough of the word of God to say they have read and rejected it, yet, they were never saved, that we know of. That's certainly not the kind of "knowing" to which Peter is referring here.

Why would Peter say "we?" He did not fall from grace, did he? Unless I've missed something in your argument, there's no argument there.

Ex wrote:  The person who IS actually saved, is not under the Law of sin and death. Galatians 2:16-21.

Ex, from what is one saved?

DF--

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 The penalty of sin.

 Ex.

thanks.

What if one leads a sinless life?  Is he/she OK?

DF

thanks.

What if one leads a sinless life?  Is he/she OK?

DF

What 2Peter 2:20-21 actually says.

2 Peter 2:20-22  (KJV)

20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

What people  actually think that it says.

2 Peter 2:20-22  (KJV)

20 For if after we have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, we are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with us than the beginning.

21 For it had been better for us not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after we have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto us.

22 But it is happened unto us according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

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If you happen to fit the description of the scenario then you are the "they" that this refers to. "We" only works, if "we" happen to fit the scenario. I would say that we is unlikely since we in this instance would refer to the Apostle Peter and the entire church as a whole to have to fit that scenario. So the idea of putting we there as if the entire church would turn its back on Christ's Lordship and return to a life of sin is a bit of a long stretch. However, there may be some churches as a whole that have done just that. But generally the term we will not fit this scenario.  But if we does happen to fit that scenario, then by default, we is no longer we, but quickly becomes a member of they that this scenario refers to. Does that clear it up for you? You in this case of course means you, or anybody else that might be confused on the matter.

My friend, playing around with pronouns doesn't change what this verse said. Anybody that falls into this category of claiming to know Christ and turning away from sin for a while, and then later returns again to their  past life of sin that they once forsook, has in effect denied Christ by their actions and is worse off than if they had never confessed or known Christ to begin with. A dog that returns to its own vomit, may have truly never been anything other than a dog. But for a while, that dog obviously confessed Jesus as Savior and Lord and forsook sin in its effort to follow Christ. And as this depicts, that dog clearly forsook sin in the name of a Christian before later turning back to a life of sin. I guarantee you that that dog could have very well thought it was saved and might have easily told everyone that it was sealed by the Holy Spirit and that it could never be lost no matter what it did. And after it returned to its vomit it may have still held on to its believe that it was saved by the grace of God and could not lose its eternal security in Christ. But this scripture gives no hope for the one who follows Christ for a while and then returns to a life of sin. Those who make a confession of faith but do not continue to follow Christ as Lord, and return to a life of sin, have effectively demonstrated by their actions that they are a lost sinner that is worse off than a person never knowing or confessing Christ as their Savior and Lord to begin with. How else can this be taken? What person would forsake sin for a while in the knowledge of Christ as Savior and Lord unless it was a person truly taking their commitment to Christ seriously for that time in their life? And what is even worse is that some doctrines give people false hope and make them think they can live in calloused indifference to God's will while having a false assurance of salvation. God's grace is not a license to sin with impunity. Anybody that thinks it is  best think agains.

Also read Luke 12:42-48

And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath. But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

You can't recieve Jesus as Savior without accepting him as Lord. And Lord is more than a title, but implies a steadfast commitment or surrender to the will of God. If anybody believes that calling Jesus Lord at one brief time in their life gets them into the saving and keeping grace of God, then they need to look at this verse and get a reality check. A temporary walk away from sin does not merit a permanent habitaion in the family of God. Jesus said that those who take their hand to the plow and look back are not fit for the kingdom of heaven. Peter goes on here to say that the end of those who claim to know Christ but turn back to a life of wifull and unrepentant sin is worse that those who never knew Christ to begin with. How can you get any plainer than that?  

What 2Peter 2:20-21 actually says.

2 Peter 2:20-22  (KJV)

20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

What people  actually think that it says.

2 Peter 2:20-22  (KJV)

20 For if after we have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, we are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with us than the beginning.

21 For it had been better for us not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after we have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto us.

22 But it is happened unto us according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

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If you happen to fit the description of the scenario then you are the "they" that this refers to. "We" only works, if "we" happen to fit the scenario. I would say that we is unlikely since we in this instance would refer to the Apostle Peter and the entire church as a whole to have to fit that scenario. So the idea of putting we there as if the entire church would turn its back on Christ's Lordship and return to a life of sin is a bit of a long stretch. However, there may be some churches as a whole that have done just that. But generally the term we will not fit this scenario.  But if we does happen to fit that scenario, then by default, we is no longer we, but quickly becomes a member of they that this scenario refers to. Does that clear it up for you? You in this case of course means you, or anybody else that might be confused on the matter.

My friend, playing around with pronouns doesn't change what this verse said. Anybody that falls into this category of claiming to know Christ and turning away from sin for a while, and then later returns again to their  past life of sin that they once forsook, has in effect denied Christ by their actions and is worse off than if they had never confessed or known Christ to begin with. A dog that returns to its own vomit, may have truly never been anything other than a dog. But for a while, that dog obviously confessed Jesus as Savior and Lord and forsook sin in its effort to follow Christ. And as this depicts, that dog clearly forsook sin in the name of a Christian before later turning back to a life of sin. I guarantee you that that dog could have very well thought it was saved and might have easily told everyone that it was sealed by the Holy Spirit and that it could never be lost no matter what it did. And after it returned to its vomit it may have still held on to its believe that it was saved by the grace of God and could not lose its eternal security in Christ. But this scripture gives no hope for the one who follows Christ for a while and then returns to a life of sin. Those who make a confession of faith but do not continue to follow Christ as Lord, and return to a life of sin, have effectively demonstrated by their actions that they are a lost sinner that is worse off than a person never knowing or confessing Christ as their Savior and Lord to begin with. How else can this be taken? What person would forsake sin for a while in the knowledge of Christ as Savior and Lord unless it was a person truly taking their commitment to Christ seriously for that time in their life? And what is even worse is that some doctrines give people false hope and make them think they can live in calloused indifference to God's will while having a false assurance of salvation. God's grace is not a license to sin with impunity. Anybody that thinks it is  best think agains.

Also read Luke 12:42-48

And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath. But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

You can't recieve Jesus as Savior without accepting him as Lord. And Lord is more than a title, but implies a steadfast commitment or surrender to the will of God. If anybody believes that calling Jesus Lord at one brief time in their life gets them into the saving and keeping grace of God, then they need to look at this verse and get a reality check. A temporary walk away from sin does not merit a permanent habitaion in the family of God. Jesus said that those who take their hand to the plow and look back are not fit for the kingdom of heaven. Peter goes on here to say that the end of those who claim to know Christ but turn back to a life of wifull and unrepentant sin is worse that those who never knew Christ to begin with. How can you get any plainer than that?  

What4, I suggest, from my experience, that you will make no headway with the once saved-always saved" diehard. Bill Gray, by citing to him that passage from II Peter 2, even though there is no rational way to interpret them within the context of that chapter but as connoting the clear and dangerous possibility of a saved person departing from the faith and becoming condemned. Bill has been swooned into emotional attachment to the Calvinist doctrine of security of the believer by his association with the Calvary Chapel franchise of churches led by a cultic figure named Chuck Smith.

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Don't misunderstand me. My present battle is not to advocate or destroy the theology aspect of saved lost, or once saved always saved. It doesn't matter to me that much which view is taken as long as a person clearly understands that you cannot claim Jesus as Savior without making a true and lasting commitment to follow him as Lord. I accept the view of once saved always saved in that if you are truly saved then you will trust Christ as Savior and hear and follow Christ as Lord, and remain focused on hearing and doing his will. Those who take this view will say that those who fall away in their walk with Christ or who live in defiant sin while professing him as Savior were in fact never saved to begin with. As a matter of fact, I tend to lean toward that ideoolgy. However, I do not accept the concept of eternal security that points back to a day in the past and says since I was saved, nothing I do will cause me to lose my salvation. Such a concept has led many people to believing they are saved while they live in defiant contradiction to God's will. There are clearly many scriptures that oppose this view and expose it as heresy. You cannot receive Jesus as Savior without truly making a commitment and keeping that commitment to follow Christ as Lord. If anybody thinks otherwise, they are clearly deceived.

What4,

 I want to say that I enjoy reading your posts, they are a breath of fresh air in the forums. And I am in no way trying to be adversarial.

 I do believe in the eternal security of the believer, for a variety of reasons, mostly scriptural.  A careful study of the lives of each saint of God in the Bible reveals that all of them had fatal flaws. Abraham denied his wife twice out of fear, took and slave as a concubine and had an illlegitimate child. Yet God perfectly preserved him.

 One of the most rebellious people of the old testament was Jacob. Poor old Jacob never did what God told him to do. He even wrestled with God's messenger in an effort to have it his way. All of this to his hurt.  Yet at his death he displayed a strong faith in the God of his fathers. It took him a lifetime to make the conversion from the scheming ways taught by his mother to the ways of God.

 Grace does not give us a blank check to sin. But the sins of a child of God are dealt with as a son, and not as a sinner. If we willingly defy God, or slip into sin, you can bet he will take us to the woodshed.

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Abraham came from an era where people worshipped many idols and many gods. Yet he came to worship God as the one true God in spite of what everyone else did. Abraham obeyed God and left his home and family on a journey of faith, not knowing where God would take him. He remained faithful to God and endured to the end. God promised Abraham a son, and he kept expecting that son until his wife Sarah grew old and was well beyond childbearing age. Only then he decided that he would help God out. We can look back on men of faith in God's word and see the miracles that God has done. But Abraham had nobody else as an example. He and Jacob simply had to walk by faith, learning about God and His will as they followed Him. They needed space to grow just like all God's children do. But . Abraham eventually came to trust that God could do the impossible. He even came to the place that he was willing to sacrifice his son on the altar, believing that God was able to raise him from the dead. You certainly can't accuse Abraham of willful disobdience. Jacob might not have been as good as an example, but he eventuallly learned obedience as well. 

A baby is not expected to be as responsible as a teenager, and a teenager generally should not be held to the same accountability as an adult. These men of old may have been adults, but in essence, they were babes in the walk of faith. It was all new to them, and given their circumstances they at times had to deal with, I don't believe we can accuse them of stubbornly defying God's will. Making mistakes did not mean that they sinned willfully and defiantly against God. We can't look at them and find reason to excuse ourselves in our sins. They didn't have God's word to go by, or have pillars of faith to refer to for examples. We do. To compare them with us is a bit like comparing apples and oranges. We have God's word. They didn't. We are often without excuse.

My friend, if God ever takes one of his true children to the woodshed, you can bet they will learn their lesson and begin following and obeying God. If they don't, then it is a clear sign that they are not truly God's children. There is a clear difference between a sinner and a child of God. A sinner has no desire to follow God but is happy in their sins. If they do desire to follow God, they have no true commitment to follow through and apply God's will to their lives. If a child of God does not show a different disposition that a sinner, then how can they say they are a child of God? No person can expect salvation without truly trusting Jesus as Savior and committing their heart and life to Christ as Lord.

There is a clear difference between a sinner and a child of God. A sinner has no desire to follow God but is happy in their sins.

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So as long as they "feel bad" about their sins they're good to go? That seems to be the underlying theme, yes, "christians" sin, but they feel bad about it. On the other hand non-believers can "sin", feel bad about it, but too bad, so sad, they don't believe in gawd, so they don't get a pass by the "christian faction" of society?? 

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Possibly you didn't read beyond those words. Having a desire is not enough. If the will to make a dedicated commitment to follow Christ is not there, then there is a clear problem. Jesus said those who take their hand to the plow and look back are not fit for the kingdom of God. Yet, at the same time, even when a true and sincere commitment is made to God, a child of God can still fail in weakness at times in their lives. That doesn't mean they aren't saved, but they should definitely not be satisified in that state. If a child of God fails to follow through and do what they know to do is right, it should trouble them deeply and they will ask God for his forgiveness and strength. As long as we forgive others who sin against us, then we can expect God to forgive us in our failure and weakness. But if we fail to forgive others, then God will not forgive us.

Christ is faithful to forgive those who truly desire to serve Him, but we should never use God's grace as an excuse to sin. It should never be the character of a child of God to simply give into their sinful nature and allow it to dominate their lives. If that is the case, then they have a serious problem. There shoud be a real determination in a child of God's life to live for Christ. Failure should be the last thing on the mind of a child of God. If you do something with intent, then how can it be characterized as a failure? If there is no true determination or dedicated intent to follow Christ in Christian's life, then that person needs to do some real soul searching and figure out just who they are serving. If we continually end up serving self over God, then we have a serious problem. We have to strongly resist our stubborn will and not allow it to dominate our actions. But this fleshly nature that we inherit from Adam can be a bit difficult to put in subjection. Everybody has a problem with that nature sometimes. No doubt you do as well even though your desire is not to serve God. Few people allow their first instincts to rule, but they will govern themselves and keep themselves in subjection in order to accomplish a better and more nobile goal. Getting self under control is not an easy task at times, but it should always be the intent for a child of God.