Just what I have been saying for years

Trained at FLETC in Artesia worked for the FAM's is that good enough for you? how about you?  Never said it happened to me.   But I have been asked to search my vehicle during a "safety" check on 72 several times during the summer months of the year.  You know the ones where they stop everybody checking for license and insurance.

To be fair I should be able to travel with legal money without fear that law enforcement will seize it without any legal proof of criminal intent.  BTW I was a LEO before you start.  Also, having to go to court in some town far away during the week to prove I was on my way to buy a classic car not drugs is not reasonable.  Regardless remember even if you have nothing to hide never let your car be searched without reason.

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result, .

Not trying a new enlightened approach is insane as it meats the criteria.

+++

Was is Einstein who said that?  Coincidentally I subscribed to that theory until tonight when it was brought up in a topic I was discussing with a buddy of mine.

He breaks horses.

He said when he starts with a green mount, he expects different results every time he rides it thereafter.

Sometimes you got to do the same things over and over to get them right.  Trying things one time and getting them right or wrong is often a matter of luck.

We learn by getting back in the saddle again and again.  And believing we will achieve different results.  And doing so.

Just one of life's rules.

@Hi Flyer ... You are usually very level headed. You seem to be very emotional about this one. I also believe that a person should be free from "unreasonable" searches and seizures. I detailed a scenario earlier. I would have no qualms in seizing money in a situation like that. If I stopped a man on his way to the Smoky Mountain Car Show with a suitcase with enough money to buy his dream car, and no other "articulable facts" existed, I wouldn't fell comfortable seizing it. As a graduate of FLETC, I'm sure you can relate to that. I would hope that any reasonable person would agree with that. That, after all, is the standard.

So bud you going to reciprocate?

+++

First off let me apologize.  I interpreted what you wrote as something that happened to you and we were going to get some real insight from a former LEO as to what it was like under those circumstances.  But since it didn't happened to you, then you can't really say what you would have done as an LEO under those circumstances anymore than I can since neither of us were there.

I also apologize for missing your first post where I was supposed to reciprocate.  You want my CV.  OK.  Reader's Digest version.

Distinguished graduate of my states police academy

Worked in a agency that ranked only behind LA in violent crimes per capita

6 buddies KIA.  Recipient of agency's highest award for valor. 

Traffic team and checkpoint supervisor

Agency training officer

Training at FLETC-Glynco and FBI Quantico OSSTP/4th Amendment as well as numerous other academies.

Chief instructor for police procedures at  state police academy

Procedural and tactical instructor in 4th Amendment issues

Certified expert witness in Federal and State civil and criminal courts regarding, among other things, 4th Amendment issues regarding police procedures.

But that was over a decade ago.  I've forgotten a lot.  And things change.

More recently, 4th Amendment issues and training instructor with the USAF in ATFP.

That was exactly a decade ago.  And ditto above.

Combine the two = 46 years.

Which may explain my curiosity.

But anything in recent times, I defer to Wright.  He's the one on the street doing the job.

Be safe, Wright.

And HF, thanks for asking.  Any further?

What about McDonalds? The overuse of fatty fast foods by poor people contributes to their bad health then taxpayers have to pay for their healthcare.

 MYTH: Poor people can't afford to eat a healthy diet. I know that's BS because I am far from rich, have been even less rich, and NEVER fed myself or family on fast food. It's cheaper to eat the healthier foods. Someone asked me once if I ever 'treated' my kids to McDonalds or Burger King. I don't consider that a treat.

Should fast food be outlawed?

What about sodas? 

What about cigarettes?

If the rationale for outlawing marajuana is that the taxpayer has to pick up the tab due to abuse by people who use it then all of those things should be outlawed as well.

The argument about fast food, cigarettes and soda is goofy and has no place in the discussion, EXCEPT once more, if you abuse them you shouldn't come crying to others for help after you've told them to stay out of your business.

I didn't rationalize outlawing marijuana because of the cost to taxpayers. What I posted was this-

Yes, stay out of your 'private home life' UNTIL you need us for something. 

  AND one last time, those things, soda, fast food, cigarettes don't alter the person's mind, make them high, drunk, whatever you want to call it.

Does the benefit from the War on Drugs justify the cost? The resounding answer is no.

I don't know the answer to that. I'd have to guess that yes, the war on drugs benefits us, because as available as drugs are now I can only imagine what it would be like with no one trying to stop it. What qualifies you to say it doesn't work?

One more problem with people, Americans in particular, they all want their recreation, and immediate gratification, and if that includes drugs to alter their minds, to **** with anyone that thinks that's wrong. I've said it as many ways as I can say it, to **** with the wimps that have to be medicated for their recreation. To **** with screwed up people that don't want to face reality and want to muddle up their minds to get by.  I may have two drinks a year, maybe. Maybe none. It depends on where I am and how good they make a margarita, the mood I'm in, what I'm eating, then only one. I don't sit and drink them until I don't know I'm in the world, and then get into a car and drive home.  Oh, but that's not fun, not enough pleasure is it?

People talk about how they drink beer because they like the taste. Fine, if you have one, I might understand that, but to drink them all day, or have to have 'a few' every day kinda puts that liking the taste thing to lie. They want to get drunk. THAT'S the part I don't get, that having to be stoned out of their minds with something all the time. Drugs, alcohol, doing what makes them happy at any cost means more to those people than anything else, and yes, they disgust me. And given the number who seem to want that constant fogginess in their brains, it's no wonder we're a country of push overs.

What does the pro-marijuana group think of cocaine, meth, heroin, bath salts, and other drugs that people use? Not comparing the drugs, asking where they think the line should be drawn, or if it even should be drawn.  How about spice? The last two to three weeks there have been two reported cases, that I know of, I'm sure there are more, of multiple murders by people under the influence of spice. Of course they had histories of using/abusing other things too, and not being mentally stable. Reports say spice is very dangerous, easy to get, and legal in some places.

http://www.today.com/health/sy...-drug-can-1D80058128

The right way? Not sure anyone knows for sure. People can have ideas. Mandatory random drug testing for EVERY worker on every job. No warning before the tests, firing if they test positive. Drug testing for everyone arrested. Drug testing for every person over a certain age that visits a doctor, especially every pregnant woman. They test for everything else, why not drug use? House arrest, fines, random home testing and ankle bracelets for even 1st time offenders, and of course harsher penalties for second, third offenses. Mandatory drug treatment after second offense at their expense, and drug treatments every time they offend.  At their expense, not ours. They might not get clean but at least THEY can pay for their behavior instead of others paying to support them and supply them with their drugs.

Irresponsible people are going to continue to abuse drugs whether they are legal or not.

If heroin became legal tomorrow I am not going to go buy some and neither are my friends that I hang out with.

What we have done with the war on drugs is created a tax payer funded industry that supports all of these federal agencies that go after the offenders, the lawyers that prosecute/defend them, and the prisons that incarcerate them. 

-----------------------------------------------------

Stewart issued a statement calling the ordeal "the toughest and most emotional experience of my life."

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

An ordeal he had to go through because of what? A pot head? Sure seems like it.

Still no answer. I asked where we draw the line, or do you even want the line drawn? You may not do drugs, I sure wouldn't, but how many times have you heard people say they started because the drugs were so easy to get their hands on and in their mental state at the time drugs seemed like the answer? Now of course many say they wish they hadn't become addicted. If they hadn't been easy to get, many swear, they would never ever have started. Then of course their are many that have friends that do drugs and they blame them. So, many times they claim easy access and a 'misery loves company' crowd led them astray. Too, WHY in the world should the rest of us have to be subjected to them? Why do we have to pay for their addictions and health care? INSANE. It's time we stopped catering to irresponsible people.

sWhat it comes down to is that YOU do not like to get drunk or smoke pot therefore you do not think others should do that.

-------------------

Good grief, sorry but that is just asinine, and I would have thought more from you. Because I don't like to do it I don't think others should? Really? That's my objection to substance abusers, because I don't do it I don't think others should have their 'fun' and enjoyment by getting ****** up and out of their minds? Do you 'hear' yourself? Is there anything you consider bad behavior/irresponsible behavior that you don't condone? You yourself called them irresponsible people but for some reason you think they're to be tolerated no questions asked, no boundaries set on their behavior, and I disagree, so that means I want to keep them from their enjoyment of life? SMH

Lame excuses, same old arguments that have nothing to do with illegal drug use. Nanny government eh? I thought government was supposed to care about the wishes and welfare of all it's citizens, and that shouldn't mean forcing most of us to put up with irresponsible behavior and bear the costs of said behaviors of others engaging in illegal/irresponsible activities, and shouldn't mean making illegal activities legal because a few think it's not worth the effort to enforce the laws. Nanny state to me is telling me I have no right to protection from those people, and that I have to put up with, and pay for, any repercussions from their behavior. And wow, no boundaries on behavior? Where do you live? I want to come to your house and take whatever strikes my fancy. Hope you have a new car, I need a new car.

Tony Stewart Cleared of Charges in Kevin Ward's Death After Marijuana in Victim

NASCAR driver Tony Stewart won't face charges in the death of a fellow racer, Kevin Ward Jr., after Ward was found to be under the influence of marijuana at the time of collision that killed him.

Prosecutors in upstate New York said a grand jury decided against charging Stewart either with second-degree manslaughter or criminally negligent homicide in Ward's death, which occurred when Stewart hit Ward with his car during a race on Aug. 9.

Ward had exited his car and was seen on video standing in the middle of the track gesturing at Stewart's car after their cars collided. As he came back around the track, Stewart fishtailed and struck Ward.

Michael Tantillo, district attorney of Ontario County, said there was enough marijuana in Ward's system "to impair judgement" and that the videos that investigators saw showed "no aberrational driving by Tony Stewart," according to the Associated Press.

Stewart issued a statement calling the ordeal "the toughest and most emotional experience of my life."

+++

Just what I've been saying for years. 

You beat me to it Best.  Thanks.

So much for the benign effects of cannabis.

Good post.

Anticipate the drug testing of race car drivers.

And more whining from the pro-pot heads.

I have sat thru many educational classes on drugs and addiction.  It is a complicated problem. Ideally when you deprive an addict of one vice, the addictive personality will compensate with another. Take a cocaine addict and deprive them of cocaine and allow them access to alcohol and they will replace it. The problem is that the drugs do not have the same effect, they may be less powerful or attach to a different neurocenter in the brain, and the person will take more and more trying to get that "high" they experienced. Eventually the body's ability to metabolize the drug is overwhelmed and the person will overdose.  You can OD on anything. Tylenol will kill you and believe me the death from that one is not pretty. Mushrooms will kill if you pick the wrong one.  I am never surprised by what people will do to themselves in search of a moment of euphoria.

Marijuana does not appear to be as addictive as the other neurostimulators, probably less so than alcohol if you want the truth, BUT there is and can be serious side effects to it. There is not just one type of marijuana, but many variants, which have been singled out to give the best effects. The long term effect of some of these on young bodies is still being researched. It is not uncommon for men who use MJ to develop hypertrophic breast tissue, and therefore the effects of MJ on breast tissue and those receptors should be looked at.

In the meantime, medicinal use of MJ should be considered since it has been shown to be effective in cases of decreased appetite, nausea, seizures, and long term pain. I am not sure that full access to it, especially in children, should be granted.  but like most of you, I think the jails are too full of people for its use.

+++

All due respect Doc, confronting first hand the results of drug abuse on the street is a hell of a lot different than confronting it in the classroom.

BTW, I'm all in favor of the legitimate medical use of any drug.

And no, I don't think jail is the answer for addicts either.  How many beds does your hospital have?

Bud,

Don't misunderstand what I am trying to say. I know it is entirely different trying to solve addiction problems.  What I meant by my post  was that people with addictive personalities will replace one drug with something else. Like the former alcoholic who is now "addicted" to exercise, or shopping, or food.  If you allow unfettered use of drugs without some type of supervision (ie medical) then these individuals will kill themselves or OD and require a huge amount of care to support them.

I don't think therefore that allowing the free reign of drugs in the community is the answer. MJ on the other hand (most forms of it) does not have the huge psychotrophic effects of drugs such as PCP, heroin, etc, and is less addictive.  But also like I said, it is still a drug and in that sense has some side effects that are not thoroughly understood at this point.

+++

Thanks Doc.  I agree that some, if not most, but not all addicts replace one addiction with another.  For instance I was addicted to smoking for 22 years, I quit cold turkey 30 years ago and did not replace it.  I don't think what I did is rare at all.

Plus, I know several guys who will admit they have a problem with alcohol and haven't had a drink in decades.  They don't use a substitute.  And that's fairly common.

And I know some folks who were bad to take pills, but no more.

Some of these folks are friends of mine and because they've cleaned up their act, they have both my admiration + respect.

And some of them I met while working the street.  Not the kind of folks I would call friends, but still deserving of respect for taking charge of their lives and becoming productive citizens.

But I think, maybe, we can both agree there are addicts in prison, and that prison may not be the best place for them.  I was thinking more in line of a medical facility.  Doubtless the treatment would be improved, but do you really think a medically trained staff has the skills to supervise them?  Events have shown it's not that rare, nor apparently that hard, to smuggle drugs into a prison.  And in a medical facility?

=====

No, but why does that part seem to irritate you ?

It's "sarcasm" fool.

What part of the hypocrisy of Doctors dolling out "legal" drugs to Ol' Farts that "need" it , State run alcohol distribution, BIG Tobacco, COPS seizing "drug profits"..etc....THEN Imprisoning thousands of po' folk for enjoying a FREELY GROWING PLANT???

I don't think therefore that allowing the free reign of drugs in the community is the answer. MJ on the other hand (most forms of it) does not have the huge psychotrophic effects of drugs such as PCP, heroin, etc, and is less addictive.  But also like I said, it is still a drug and in that sense has some side effects that are not thoroughly understood at this point.

----------------------------------

In a way a forum is the worse place to put your opinions. Sometimes they are understood, sometimes they aren't, sometimes people take offense because you dare have a differing opinion. I am 100% in favor of ANY drug that relieves the pain of an ill person, or heals that person. In fact, so in favor that IF it is an experimental drug, and the ill person is willing, they should be given said drug, under doctors supervision of course. The fact that so many people want prescriptions for marijuana, but ONLY the kind that makes them high, may be one reason some people object to it's use. Face it, this 'medical' use of marijuana has become a joke. Is it only me that is disgusted when healthy people say "I have a prescription for marijuana", and then snicker? 

I would have thought it was clear that the problem I have is with people who use drugs and alcohol recreationally. Stop coddling people. Treat the cause, don't medicate the person. Stop making excuses for bad behavior and start demanding responsibility. What is wrong with that? I do understand about addictive behavior, to a point. But, also I, and pretty sure everyone else, have heard so many speak of how they drank or used drugs for years and years, and one day just stopped and never looked back. So, that has to say that it's not only addictive personalities that are involved.

bud,

And that is what separates the addicts from the rest.  the inability to put it down.  Addictive personality disorder will manifest itself when a person becomes hooked on the drug or the activity that stimulates that portion of their brain.  Not everyone who goes to a casino is a gambling addict, but some will become one if they allowed access to it.  We as a community or society cannot prevent a person's addiction.  We can attempt to rehabilitate those with an addictive personality to replace it with some more constructive and less destructive to their lives and those around them in order to protect society. But, I am not sure you can truly cure those who are addicted. Jail and rehab does little to cure them, since the minute they get out they are just as likely to stumble on it again.  Like I said it is a complicated problem for society.  Throwing money at it in the name of rehabilitation is not really the answer.

I admire those who can walk away from something like that, whether it is cigarettes, heroin, etc.  Those who do it, and do not replace it with something lese are not really the type of addicts I am talking about.

+++

Thanks again, Doc.  Good post.

Even though I had my last cigarette 30 years ago, I still say I'm trying to quit.  I guess I'm still addicted to them in the same way a "recovering" alcoholic will not take a social drink.  I would dread starting over.  That's my motivation for resisting temptation and certainly don't need any alternative to remind me.

I cannot imagine what sort of will power it would take to shake the other stuff but if the devastation their behavior wrecks on their family & friends isn't enough, they need "intervention" in the harshest way.

I realize we're not on the same page, but I just wanted to point out that those who are incarcerated for drug violations are not there because they volunteered for any sort of treatment.

It really is none of your business what people do recreationally.

You want gov't to interfere in the private lives of citizens to force them to do what YOU think is best. That line of thinking makes you no different than the religious whackos that want religion in schools because THEY think that is what is best for people. 

Also, spare me the "they enable irresponsible behavior" argument. There are many other things that enable irresponsible behavior as well. 

------------------------

Yes, it IS my business what they do recreationally when it interferes with other's lives in a detrimental way. Very rich that you'd have a problem with what I want when you're crying like a little girl because YOU want your way. That's the liberal way, no one but them should have a say in anything. How about YOU spare ME that, "it's my right to be messed up and you have to put up with it, and not set boundaries" crap.