I rarely support capital punishment, as in death. I do support Life Without Possibility Of Parole. I certainly thought that Tucker's death sentence should have been commuted, but I was not the one to decide that. While I honestly believe she was a changed woman, it's pretty easy for every prison inmate to claim an epiphany. Should we release them all? If a bank robber repents should we allow him to keep his money? It's called a slippery slope.

Tucker may have been a changed woman while in jail, but we don't know what she would have been like out of jail.

The two people she killed is still dead, they don't get a chance at any kind of life. Tucker once told that she experienced intense multiple orgasms with each blow of the pickaxe when she killed Deborah Thornton.

I hope she had more of those intense multiple orgasms as she was dying.

 

Originally Posted by semiannualchick:

        The two people she killed is still dead, they don't get a chance at any kind of life. Tucker once told that she experienced intense multiple orgasms with each blow of the pickaxe when she killed Deborah Thornton.
I hope she had more of those intense multiple orgasms as she was dying.


While I realize it is possible for a person to change over the long period of time they are in prison it still does not erase the fact that the murders took place. It still doesn't bring back those killed. It also doesn't heal the hurting and grieving families left behind to deal with it for the rest of their lives. Always feeling the loss of loved ones.

It's almost too much for me to stomach to hear one say that they are in gods hands now and they are forgiven. I know it's possible and might be true but it doesn't fix anything outside of their own life/ mind. It doesn't erase what they did in this world. It might give them some sort of internal peace but it just seems very selfish to me. Especially the ones who show no remorse. It's just a very difficult subject and I'm sure many people feel many different ways about it. But this is my opinion.
Originally Posted by dark dreamer:
Originally Posted by semiannualchick:

        The two people she killed is still dead, they don't get a chance at any kind of life. Tucker once told that she experienced intense multiple orgasms with each blow of the pickaxe when she killed Deborah Thornton.
I hope she had more of those intense multiple orgasms as she was dying.


While I realize it is possible for a person to change over the long period of time they are in prison it still does not erase the fact that the murders took place. It still doesn't bring back those killed. It also doesn't heal the hurting and grieving families left behind to deal with it for the rest of their lives. Always feeling the loss of loved ones.

It's almost too much for me to stomach to hear one say that they are in gods hands now and they are forgiven. I know it's possible and might be true but it doesn't fix anything outside of their own life/ mind. It doesn't erase what they did in this world. It might give them some sort of internal peace but it just seems very selfish to me. Especially the ones who show no remorse. It's just a very difficult subject and I'm sure many people feel many different ways about it. But this is my opinion.


  It is true that she may have made a genuine conversion to Christianity, God will grant forgiveness for anything if a person is sincere when asking. It's a good thing that men do not decide who gets into Heaven and who doesn't as we would be letting a lot of folks in who should not be there and denying entrance to many who should be in Heaven.

 On the other hand, when these people become Christians then it is God who grants forgiveness but that does not release them from their just punishment for crimes committed here and as for Karla Faye Tucker, "God might have forgiven her and others like her but the state of Texas is liable to be a little more hard-nosed about it". (Quote stolen from a movie but it conveys my opinion on the subject very well)

Another "gem" that we can all hope gets "saved" (again) so he can go flying off to a heaven when he dies of natural causes, because unfortunately he didn't get death, he got 175 years in prison. Big whoop. Then again he might not want anymore to do with religion since the reason he was caught was because he was using his church's computer to communicate with the police.

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How the Cops Caught BTK

 

"A few weeks later, such a disk from BTK was sent to a local television station. The disk was quickly traced to Rader through a computer at his church. DNA testing soon confirmed that Rader was BTK, a name he took for himself that stands for bind, torture and kill."

http://www.abajournal.com/maga...the_cops_caught_btk/

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This is one everyone should read all about, and keep in mind that christians will say this "thing", can go to a heaven. Look at his victims, some were small children, and think that over.

Originally Posted by Not Shallow Not Slim:

If you were wondering about Christian justice, see this.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...&feature=feedlik

 

DF

I don't think that preacher or the guy doing the commentary know the meaning of 'self-righteous Pharisee'.  Pharisees were holier than thou church leaders who did things contrary to God's Word, including adding to it.  Jesus was not a fan & regularly gave them a tongue lashing.

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

Her sentence commuted to life? It's just a shame they couldn't execute her twice, once for each victim.

 

If it had been in Lauderdale County, the two of them could have gotten a deal for 25 years. Maybe less since one victim was a drug dealer and the other was a married woman in bed with him at the time of the murder. Sad commentary on our justice system.

Sad commentary is that someone thinks the two victims might have deserved what they got. I have no idea if he was a drug dealer, I'll read the report again. I don't remember them being in bed together either but again I could have forgotten the details since it's been a while. And kft was a drugged out tramp that wouldn't think twice about going to bed with a married man OR having sex next to the bodies of two people she'd just slaughtered. So IF a jury found she was of a higher moral standard than her victims I guess that is indeed a sad commentary not only on our system, but on human nature too.

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

Her sentence commuted to life? It's just a shame they couldn't execute her twice, once for each victim.

So, you are very much like her. You believe that killing, even killing twice, is OK if you have a good reason. It seems to me that you and the woman you would like to kill twice are pretty much the same, morally, that is.

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

I'll let you explain how her killing two people was OK and what good reason she had. As for me thinking killing is OK, in her case and cases like hers, yes I do. BTK should have been given death.

Thank you for clarifying that you and murders are the same. You both believe that it is OK to kill, if you have a good reason. You both believe that killing is moral. No cold-blooded killer was ever sicker than you. Believe whatever you want, just don't pretend that you are any better than the killers that you think deserve to die.

Well jimma all you did was repeat yourself. I thought you wanted to tell me how karla faye killing two people was OK. It was her bad luck that she didn't get you on her jury but maybe one day you'll get to turn a sick murdering ***** loose. That will make you feel better I'm sure, and when you do turn them loose don't worry about the fact that it will make you no better than them.

Hi Firenze,

You write, "I rarely support capital punishment, as in death.  I do support Life Without Possibility Of Parole.  I certainly thought that Tucker's death sentence should have been commuted, but I was not the one to decide that.  While I honestly believe she was a changed woman, it's pretty easy for every prison inmate to claim an epiphany.  Should we release them all?  If a bank robber repents should we allow him to keep his money?  It's called a slippery slope."

You and I are on the same page with this.  Just as with the followers of Charles Manson, the same with Karla Faye Tucker -- if their conversions are real (and I cannot judge that; only the person and God can) -- I say commute the sentence to life in prison without  parole.

Yet, to me, that would be a worse sentence -- for a Christian believer, even one who has committed horrible crimes, knows that leaving this world means being with Jesus Christ.   Personally, I would rather be with Him than in prison for life.  On the other hand, being in prison still offers a true believer the chance to be His witness and to help lead others to salvation in Jesus Christ.

In one of his prison epistles, Paul wrote to the people of Philippi, in Philippians 1:21-24, "For to me, to live is Christ and to die is  gain.  But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose.  But I am  hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better; yet to remain on in  the flesh is more necessary for your sake."

That should always be the desire of a Christian believer -- to live on, regardless of circumstances, and bear fruit of salvation among those still in the grasp of today's secular world and society.

Several times I have written about my Friend, Momma Olga Robertson, who spent almost 50 years of her life in prison ministry -- for 25 years living within the prison compound of the largest prison in Manila, in a home built for her and her son, Shalom, by the inmates.

Olga witnessed to prisoners at all levels -- from petty thieves to those on death row.  She helped quite a few, even among those on death row, become Christian believers.  But, those believers on death row all had one thing in common at their execution.  They died with a smile on their faces -- for they knew that in just a few moments they would be in the presence of their Lord and Savior, Jesus  Christ -- for eternity.

Olga Robertson wrote a book about her years living in New Bilibid Prison in Manila, Philippines.  The title is The Men In My Life and anyone interested in a copy can probably get it through the Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa (California) book store -- or I can put you in touch with Olga's daughter, Kay, who can help you.

There is a great article about Momma Olga Robertson in the Calvary Chapel Magazine:


http://www.calvarymagazine.org...nal_testimony_25.pdf

 

An excerpt from that article tells us:


Not long ago, a young woman, Anna Jose, was introduced to Olga’s autobiography, The Men In My Life, in a Sunday school class.  The book includes the story of the three rapists.  Anna told the Sunday school teacher that she was the product of one of those rapes.  When Olga was introduced to Anna, she comforted the young woman with the assurance that her father had repented of his sins and would one day be there to meet her in heaven -- where their shared history of sorrow and shame would be forever turned to joy.


Yes, good can come from past evils -- when God is allowed into the story; when the door is opened and Jesus Christ is invited to come in (Revelation 3:20) and be our best Friend.

So, Firenze, like you, I most likely would have voted for Karla Faye's conviction to be commuted to Life Without Parole.  But, that decision was not placed upon our shoulders.

Yet, you and I do have certain powers.  We have the power of prayer for our nation and its leaders.  And, we have the power of the vote -- which we will get to exercise in a major election coming in 2012.   We have the power to bring more Christian influence into the governing bodies in America.

Before our atheist and secularist Friends begin to jump up and down, screaming, "Theocracy!  Theocracy!  Theocracy!" -- let me assure all of our Friends that no Christian believer, still functioning with a sane mind, wants a mortal theocracy in America.  What we want to see is more Christian influence in the governing bodies -- to balance the overwhelming secular power there today.

There is only one theocracy that Christians want to see -- and that will come after the Rapture and after the seven year Tribulation.  It is called the Millennial Reign of Jesus Christ -- and He WILL rule the world from the throne of David in Jerusalem for 1000 years.   That theocracy we look forward to enjoying.   A mortal theocracy today -- would be as bad as having a totally secular government.

So, please keep this in mind when you vote in 2012 -- Christian influence in government, not a theocracy, leading us back once again to the Christian America of our roots.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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You and I are on the same page with this. Just as with the followers of Charles Manson, the same with Karla Faye Tucker -- if their conversions are real (and I cannot judge that; only the person and God can) -- I say commute the sentence to life in prison without parole.

 

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If the conversion is real commute the sentence? Why? And you go on to say only your god and that person would know if it was real. Contradiction there pal. Because on the one hand you say if it is real commute the sentence, then on the other you say no one knows it's real. Then you wonder why people don't want any part of your cult.

quote:   Originally Posted by Jennifer Bestworking:
quote:  Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

You and I are on the same page with this. Just as with the followers of Charles Manson, the same with Karla Faye Tucker -- if their conversions are real (and I cannot judge that; only the person and God can) -- I say commute the sentence to life in prison without parole.

If the conversion is real commute the sentence? Why? And you go on to say only your god and that person would know if it was real. Contradiction there pal. Because on the one hand you say if it is real commute the sentence, then on the other you say no one knows it's real. Then you wonder why people don't want any part of your cult.

Hi Jennifer,

 

You are right that this does put us into a sort of grey area (no pun intended).  However, I believe we all can agree that to err on the side of life -- is always better than mistakenly taking a life when it could be productive to allow that person to live.  

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

3.3 Our chat rooms and message boards shall be used only in a noncommercial manner. You shall not, without the express approval of TimesDaily.com, distribute or otherwise publish any material containing any solicitation of funds, advertising or solicitation for goods or services.

You are right that this does put us into a sort of grey area (no pun intended). However, I believe we all can agree that to err on the side of life -- is always better than mistakenly taking a life when it could be productive to allow that person to live.

 

 

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Err on the side of life? I don't think so since she admitted to and bragged about the killings.  To me it's more "productive" to show others what being a cold blooded killer can bring them. IF that saves one murder victim it's worth it.

Originally Posted by Bill Gray:
Hi Jennifer,

 always better than mistakenly taking a life when it could be productive to allow that person to live. 

Bill

_____________________________

Bill, what about the man & woman she killed? She didn't give them a chance to have a productive life.

 

Deuteronomy 19:21 says:

And your eye shall not pity; but life shall go for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.

Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Just as with the followers of Charles Manson, the same with Karla Faye Tucker -- if their conversions are real (and I cannot judge that; only the person and God can) --
Bill

__________________________________

Why not, Bill? You do it to us on this forum constantly.

quote:  Originally Posted by semiannualchick:
Bill, what about the man & woman she killed?  She didn't give them a chance to have a productive life.

 

Deuteronomy 19:21 says:  And your eye shall not pity; but life shall go for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.


Hi Chick,

 

That is a good question.  In the Old Testament, the Israelites were under the Law and the judgments of the Law stood.  They sacrificed animals and birds to atone for sins; but, had to continue to do the sacrifices -- for the blood of those animals and birds were only temporal sacrifices. 

 

Jesus Christ came and brought us out from under the Law and into the dispensation of Grace.  With His blood, He paid our sin debt to God, once for all time.  Now, because of His "once for all" blood sacrifice -- all who, by the grace of God, through faith in Jesus Christ and His Gospel, believe and receive His "paid in full" gift -- they have eternal life. 

 

When a person, regardless of who they are or what sins they have committed, sincerely invites Jesus Christ to come into his/her hearts and be his/her personal Lord and Savior (Rev 3:20) -- that person has all his/her sins paid for by the precious blood of Jesus Christ -- are forgiven -- and HAVE eternal life in Christ.

 

Chick, isn't it wonderful to know that He is there, waiting at the door of your heart -- waiting for YOU to open that door and invite Him to come in and be your personal Lord and Savior?   That is the most precious gift anyone will EVER offer you.  Please do not refuse it.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

quote: Originally Posted by semiannualchick:
Bill, what about the man & woman she killed? She didn't give them a chance to have a productive life.

 

Deuteronomy 19:21 says: And your eye shall not pity; but life shall go for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.

 

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They don't care about the victims, especially if the victims weren't living the life the "christians" think they should have been living. Imagine this country under complete control of the bill's, the westboro church bunch, and the other assorted religious nuts. Bill even admits it, they don't know if a murderer has truly come to believe, but they don't care as long as they say they do, and then they want the sentences commuted or the murderers released so they can "tell their wonderful story of conversion", hallelujah!!! Tucker had plenty of time to tell it. I saw her telling it, with that ugly face turned up and that pious look that they all swallowed hook, line, and sinker.

 When I read this mess I think what it would be like if that heaven really existed. How would they work it out if say, sharon tate was strolling those streets of gold, forever pregnant because they killed her before she delivered her son, and ran into one of her killers. Maybe the one that told her, when she begged for her life and the life of that child, "*****, I don't care about your baby."  Would they sit and have a cup of celestial tea? But then again sharon was an actress, and maybe she made a movie or did something else christians don't agree with and she might not even be allowed in their heaven.

 

Yes, it is almost more than one can stomach.

Originally Posted by Bestworking:
 

 When I read this mess I think what it would be like if that heaven really existed. How would they work it out if say, sharon tate was strolling those streets of gold, forever pregnant because they killed her before she delivered her son, and ran into one of her killers. Maybe the one that told her, when she begged for her life and the life of that child, "*****, I don't care about your baby."  Would they sit and have a cup of celestial tea? But then again sharon was an actress, and maybe she made a movie or did something else christians don't agree with and she might not even be allowed in their heaven.

 

Yes, it is almost more than one can stomach.

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Best, religion of any kind had nothing to do with the manson family.

They were serial killers, a hippie cult of Godless murderer's.

 

.

 

Best, I certainly believe anyone should be punished for their crimes, even if they were "not responsible" because of drugs, etc. That was Tucker's problem. Would she take drugs again? Who knows? I can say that I firmly believe she would not have killed if she had not been on drugs.

 

 

Bill Gray blithers thusly:

 

"Before our atheist and secularist Friends begin to jump up and down, screaming, "Theocracy!  Theocracy!  Theocracy!" -- let me assure all of our Friends that no Christian believer, still functioning with a sane mind, wants a mortal theocracy in America.  What we want to see is more Christian influence in the governing bodies -- to balance the overwhelming secular power there today."

 

What rock are you hiding under, Bill?  There are indeed a pretty good number of Americans who wish for and are working toward a THEOCRACY in this country.  The recent "coming out" of the New Apostolic Reformation" sheds some light on this.  These nutjobs were prominent in the recent prayer and fasting farce in Houston, starring Rick Perry.  They preach "seven mountains dominionism,"a doctrine holding that Christians need to basically control every significant area of human society in preparation for the so-called "rapture." David Barton, phony historian and the darling of right-wing theocratic nutdom, is a supporter of this idiotic movement.  Read about it at :  

 

http://www.rightwingwatch.org/...ountains-dominionism

 

"One of the most prolific purveyors of bogus founder quotes is Christian theocrat David Barton. Though not a household name, Barton’s tireless efforts to construct a Christian origin story for the United States have been praised by the likes of Pat Robertson and Newt Gingrich (Church & State, 7–8/96). His 1989 book The Myth of Separation attributed bogus quotes to Washington (“It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible’&rsquo, Jefferson (“I have always said and always will say that the studious perusal of the Sacred Volume will make us better citizens&rdquo and Patrick Henry (“It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ&rdquo. Barton has also misattributed the “Ten Commandments” quote to Madison." 

 

In 1996 Barton admitted that these and nine other quotes he’d been circulating in his writings, videotapes and live appearances were either false or unverifiable (Church & State, 7–8/96). But Barton’s re****tion suffered little from the fraud, according to Rob Boston of Americans United for Separation of Church & State. “He’s doing better than ever,” Boston told Extra!, noting that since 1996 Barton has served as vice-chair of the Texas GOP, and now sits on the Texas state committee advising the state’s board of education on history and social studies curriculum, “despite no history credentials.”

 

 Link:  http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=4053

 

There are other groups that can be subsumed under the general heading of "Christian Nationalist" who argue unabashedly for converting this nation to a theocracy.  Perhaps these people are not "Christian believers" or they are not of "sane mind", but they indeed claim to be Christian and they wish for and work toward a theocracy in this nation.  For that reason they are potentially dangerous and should be opposed. Those who ignorantly revere the bogus historian, David Barton, need to see that verminous un-American propagandist for what he truly is--a deranged theocratic crackpot!

 

If you wish to pursue further the emergence and growth of Christian Nationalism, Google the name "C. Peter Wagner," the top prophet of the New Apostolic Reformation and see what these scheming, anti-American weasels are up to.

How could you possibly know she wouldn't have killed if she hadn't been taking drugs? No one forced her to take those drugs either. I don't think people are "not responsible" because of drugs or alcohol. The sad fact is there are millions of people that commit crimes because they "abuse" drugs and alcohol, but that is no reason to excuse them or give them a pass on those crimes. It makes me wonder too, do the child molesters get that same "pass" if they get "jail house religion"?

Karla Fay Tucker abducted her victim from a shopping mall in Rome, Georgia, the town where my eldest daughter went to college.  Tucker might or might not have change (death row inmates are capable of the some of the most astute charades of redemption), but  that heinous torture-murder she committed was deserving of the death penalty if any crime ever was. 

Originally Posted by FirenzeVeritas:

I believe that was Judith Ann Neeley. She was not under the influence of drugs, but claimed she was under the thumb of her husband. Yes, I believe she was evil. If she is ever released in Alabama, she has a Georgia prison cell waiting for her.

******

You are correct; my mistake. But they seem to be sisters under the skin.

Originally Posted by Contendah:

Karla Fay Tucker abducted her victim from a shopping mall in Rome, Georgia, the town where my eldest daughter went to college.  Tucker might or might not have change (death row inmates are capable of the some of the most astute charades of redemption), but  that heinous torture-murder she committed was deserving of the death penalty if any crime ever was. 

______________

Religion can't cure psychosis.

I remember an interview that Larry King did with Tucker. King asked her if she enjoyed the violence of that night, & she said yes, that she was very excited about doing different crazy, violent things. He asked her about the details of that night & she said “I don't share. That's the worst night of my life, and I don't relive that night”. She didn’t say she was so high, she didn’t remember, just that she didn’t want to relive it.

I’ve heard drug addicts say you get so high, you can’t remember things you did.

 

King asked her if she walked around with any guilt, & the answer was a flat out, w/o any hesination, No! King asked again, None? She said, “I not only didn't walk around without any guilt, I was proud of thinking that I had finally measured up to the big boys”.

 

Jerry Dean, the man she killed, was married to & separated from Karla's best friend. She said she hated him because he had once parked the motorbike in her living room & let it drip oil onto the carpet. And he had also destroyed her only pictures of her mother.

 

Her boyfriend hit Dean with a hammer so Tucker hit him with a pickaxe, not once but several times. Karla then attacked Deborah Thornton with the pickaxe, with numerous blows into her body & leaving the pickaxe embedded in her torso. Karla herself said she bragged about what she did for over a month afterward.

Seems when she got caught the bragging stopped.

 

If Karla was actually forgiven & saved, as she claimed, she was still just as guilty then as she was before. In my opinion, she got exactly what she deserved.

Tucker got 14-15 years to be "god's poster girl", she got to "marry" and have visitors. She was petted and pampered by the "christians" fighting to get her sentence commuted. The only thing wrong or unfair with her execution was that it took that 14-15 years before finally being carried out.

Originally Posted by Not Shallow Not Slim:

If you were wondering about Christian justice, see this.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...&feature=feedlik

 

DF

This video describes Bill’s form of Christianity. This is not the way it really is. People like the Son of Sam killer David Richard Berkowitz and Jeffery Dawmer just because they accept Christ as their Savior does not wash them clean. Those who live this life the best they can and die without the knowledge of the Love of Christ and what this life’s purpose is, will have the opportunity in Paradise to learn and grow. But just accepting Christ as your Savior does not give you a Ticket to Heaven.

Skippy 

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