Labor and management

Pretty much everything you've said is true, but is unrealistic to suggest that labor unions do not also deserve some of the responsibility; they have been every bit as greedy as management in bleeding the rest of America's working classes dry.

You point is well made regarding sending jobs abroad, but the difference is many of ours already have been; auto and aerospace workers have enjoyed protections we haven't, and that is why I absolutely oppose any bailout. Level the playing field for ALL American industries, THEN call me for a donation.

I saw a report last night that toyota and chrysler sold the same amount of autos, YET, toyota pulled a profit while chrysler lost their shirt. Unions play a huge part in that.

Greed and lack of flexibility are two major factors upon which both the union and management are guilty. Through technology, the rest of the auto manufacturers were able to catch the Big 3 with their pants down. It is time for both sides to get serious about being competitive with those that passed them by trimming paychecks and workforce all-around.

MODERN ECONOMIC PARABLE . . .

A Japanese company (Toyota) and an American company (Ford) decided to
have a canoe race on the Missouri River. Both teams practiced long and hard to
reach their peak performance before the race.

On the big day, the Japanese won by a mile.

The Americans, very discouraged and depressed, decided to investigate the reason for the crushing defeat. A management team made up of senior management was formed to investigate and recommend appropriate action.

Their conclusion was the Japanese had 8 people rowing and 1 person steering, while the American team had 8 people steering and 1 person rowing.

Feeling a deeper study was in order, American management hired a consulting company and paid them a large amount of money for a second opinion.

They advised, of course, that too many people were steering the boat, while not enough people were rowing.

Not sure of how to utilize that information, but wanting to prevent another loss to the Japanese, the rowing team's management structure was totally reorganized to 4 steering supervisors, 3 area steering superintendents, and 1 assistant superintendent steering manager.

They also implemented a new performance system that would give the 1 person rowing the boat greater incentive to work harder. It was called the 'Rowing Team Quality First Program,' with meetings, dinners, and free pens for the rower. There was discussion of getting a new paddle, canoes, and other equipment, extra vacation days for practices and bonuses.

The next year the Japanese won by two miles.

Humiliated, the American management laid off the rower for poor performance, halted development of a new canoe, sold the paddle, and canceled all capital investments for new equipment. The money saved was distributed to the Senior Executives as bonuses and the next year's racing team was out-sourced to India. Sadly, The End.

Here's something else to think about: Ford has spent the last thirty years moving all its factories out of the US, claiming they can't make money paying American wages.

TOYOTA has spent the last thirty years building more than a dozen plants inside the US. The last quarter's results: TOYOTA makes 4 billion in profits while Ford racked up 9 billion in losses.

IF THIS WEREN'T SO TRUE, IT MIGHT JUST BE FUNNY!!!

quote:

Originally posted by beeb:
Pretty much everything you've said is true, but is unrealistic to suggest that labor unions do not also deserve some of the responsibility; they have been every bit as greedy as management in bleeding the rest of America's working classes dry.

You point is well made regarding sending jobs abroad, but the difference is many of ours already have been; auto and aerospace workers have enjoyed protections we haven't, and that is why I absolutely oppose any bailout. Level the playing field for ALL American industries, THEN call me for a donation.

I heard a report this morning on Fox that Union labor makes up on 10% of the big 3's total labor costs.

And why has Toyota built those factories here?
Two reasons: to reduce inventory and transportation costs of the cars they build for the American markets, AND to reduce labor costs. What has happened in their Georgetown, Kentucky plant is scarily typical of the UAW approach. An employee found a memo filed on a shared drive, in which management expressed concern about direct labor costs and discussed strategies to counter the rise. One, which I absolutely believe to be both logical and practical, was to benchmark starting wages against other LOCAL industries rather than the UAW factories already in financial trouble.

The employee leaked the memo to the UAW via the company's GM joint venture plant in Fremont, CA, and they distributed it in an effort to unionize the plant, as though they could guarantee the workers higher pay and benefits.

Toyota's response has been to both begin pulling its production from the Fremont plan in favor of a Toyota Mexico factory and to consider closing Georgetown outright.

American makers, who clearly made MANY other mistakes as well, outsourced production to counter domestic labor costs at exactly the time that transportation costs were rising and the economy collapsing.

I say, let them fold and let someone who can do it better start over. It is a sad day when the American makers are collapsing from stupidity and greed (both their own and that of the unions) and foreign makers are doing more for the long-term health of our economy.

I am not knocking unions. There was a time when they stepped in and saved the American worker. On a personal level, my daddy's union job provided a roof over my head, a college education, and outstanding health care. But his company is long gone. That experience is not unusual. Greed is deadly at every level: individual, organization, management, nation.

It seems like the overall business model in the US is to grab all you can as fast as you can before it circles the bowl.

Generally, though, it circles the bowl because you grabbed all you can as fast as you can.

Today, the big story is that the UAW is blaming the GOP for the failure of the bailout. Well, praise be, thank goodness someone in Washington has enough cajones to stnd up to these organizations and say that unless concessions are made, tax payer money is not going to be doled out anymore.

Oh, and BTW, Ford may have lost money, and did shift business overseas to reduce business costs, but they at least are the only one of the three that is any where near being able to take care of themselves. GM and Chrysler did neither, and they are in worse shape by far.

True about Ford and there may be a couple of reasons for that. They do make a number of small, practical cars that are successful both here and in Europe. Also, Ford may have been somewhat more proactive in addressing the industry and economic issues; GM and Chrylser seem to have just gone looking for foreign "partners" whose wealth and success they feasted off as long as they could. Now Daimler has cut Chrysler free, and Toyota is distancing itself from GM.

In a true business sense the UAW has a contract with General Motors to make cars designed by General Motors. If General Motors goes out of business then no contract is needed. As I have said before, blame doesn't matter. If the whole group does not get together and figure it out then no contract will be needed at General Motors. Ditto for Chrysler. (I don't support a bail out.)

Now if General Motors and Chrysler have been designing the wrong type of car to attract customers then the UAW probably has been contracting with the wrong company for their labor. If the car companies didn't listen to their contractor (UAW members) when told about problems then I guess the car companies messed up. They will go out of business and there will be no need for a contract.

I fully believe the only reason we are bailing out anybody is to protect Wall Street investors. But maybe I am just cynical.

People won't stop buying cars just because GM or Chrysler go out of business. They just won't buy GM or Chrysler cars. I hate to tell the truth, but that is how I see reality. We can wave all the buy American banners we can find. Frankly it won't make a difference in today's environment. (By the way I own 2 Fords and a Jeep.)

You don't see anybody jumping on the band wagon to bail out Wise Aluminum or other local Shoals manufacturers that may need it.

go ahead and blame union labor all you want, im used to that same old lame excuse,where was all the blame when 750 billion was handed over to the banking companies? did labor contracts do that? dont think so, was it spend wisely? we will never know,but AIG got to have some cool parties. CITI bank got a cool 30billion and wants more, but let the working people ask for something and its called welfare, one heckofa double standard. do people not understand hat its not UAW jobs at stake, there are millions of jobs associated to the auto industry. but i forgor to realize the unions are gonna kill us all with their antiquated ways. seems to meet history continues to repeat and i hope labor is able to survive this latest attempt to kill it

I suspect many of us did not support the financial bailout either; I know I didn't.
I am even angrier now that there is an attempt to divert some of those funds to bail out automakers. I am incredibly frustrated that our elected representatives can reject something, and the administration can just arbitrarily decide to do it anyway!

More than most, it is the UAW membership who appears to not understand what is at stake, and the leadership of your union is just as corrupt, immoral, and extravagant as the AIG executives you criticize.

Further, you do yourself no favor with your "let the working people ask for something" argument. Many of us "working people" AREN'T. Even though our industries were often well managed, our products high quality, and our profits fair, our jobs have been "outsourced," "downsized," and pretty much any other euphemism you'd like to employ. All the while, your industry has been propped up by bailouts, handouts, subsidies, protectionist policies, and "incentives."

On an individual level, I sympathize with anyone facing job loss in this brutal economy, but I absolutely do not support bailing out ANY industry at the expense of the nation as a whole.

quote:

Originally posted by beeb:
I suspect many of us did not support the financial bailout either; I know I didn't.
I am even angrier now that there is an attempt to divert some of those funds to bail out automakers. I am incredibly frustrated that our elected representatives can reject something, and the administration can just arbitrarily decide to do it anyway!

More than most, it is the UAW membership who appears to not understand what is at stake, and the leadership of your union is just as corrupt, immoral, and extravagant as the AIG executives you criticize.

Further, you do yourself no favor with your "let the working people ask for something" argument. Many of us "working people" AREN'T. Even though our industries were often well managed, our products high quality, and our profits fair, our jobs have been "outsourced," "downsized," and pretty much any other euphemism you'd like to employ. All the while, your industry has been propped up by bailouts, handouts, subsidies, protectionist policies, and "incentives."

On an individual level, I sympathize with anyone facing job loss in this brutal economy, but I absolutely do not support bailing out ANY industry at the expense of the nation as a whole.

Well said. I have lost two jobs due to mismanagement, embezzlement, and outsourcing. Nobody came to the rescue. I worked my tail off and found a new job making A LOT LESS money before I collected one cent of unemployment. Each time I worked my tail off and got raises to get back my pay with my results. People will buy cars. They just won't buy GM and Chrysler if they go out of business. I'm sorry, but nobody saved the textile industry and it affected MILLIONS of jobs across the South.

Let them sink or swim like other businesses. Just like TVA they have gotten greedy and this is what greed leads to. How can you bail out one and say no to others? Equal opportunity for all, is what I say. Do you really think these guys are going to work for $1.00 yearly??? Do they really think we are that stupid??? Are they giving up all bonuses or incentive pay?? If they really are willing to do this then that tells me that they have enough money to live off of anyway. Greed, just pure greed, has gotten them where they are. This is just another case of the rich getting richer.

There are people out there that have worked for little more than minimum wage most of their lives that are living better than the ones who are living high because they are making the big bucks. Nothing is "old school" anymore. Status symbols such as huge houses, expensive cars, designer clothes out the ying yang, summer homes, expensive vacations, I could go on and on. There is no more saving for rainy days or being a little more careful with our money. We got it rolling in so lets spend it. Maybe that rainy day will never come!

FACT: The UAW would rather put the Big 3 out of business than make any wage concessions...not my opinion, I heard it straight from Gettlefinger's own mouth. Makes about as much sense as shooting yourself in the head because you don't want your foot amputated.

quote:

Originally posted by SHELDIVR:
FACT: The UAW would rather put the Big 3 out of business than make any wage concessions...not my opinion, I heard it straight from Gettlefinger's own mouth. Makes about as much sense as shooting yourself in the head because you don't want your foot amputated.

They are just posturing just the the CEO's when they went to D.C. and said they would be out of business without a bailout within x days. Any concessions given by workers should be tired to managements so one could not an increase without the other also seeing a increase.

My industry went through this after 9-11. Workers wages slashed, retirement dissolved and transferred to the pension guaranty fund for 30-40 cents on the dollar. Management then received bonuses and continued to receive their retirements.

Everyone wants to tie the American workers compensation to foreign workers unless you are executive management. Why should American CEO's make 10 to times their foreign counterparts, especially when they lead a company down the drain.

Also, compare American car manufactures advertising budgets to foreign and you will find a similar discrepancy. GM has the largest ever stadium naming deal ever as a example.

Wow, its just amazing how stadium names and event names have sold around the country. But back to the subject. I seem to remember hearing GM owned nine jets.

I won't disagree there should be something tied to the bailouts. While I don't agree to bailing them out I have little expectation that we won't bail them out. I think the bailout should be somehow tied to bringing back jobs from overseas.

I still think the bailout is strictly to save the necks of the Wall Street executives.

quote:

Originally posted by AlabamaSon:
Wow, its just amazing how stadium names and event names have sold around the country. But back to the subject. I seem to remember hearing GM owned nine jets.

I won't disagree there should be something tied to the bailouts. While I don't agree to bailing them out I have little expectation that we won't bail them out. I think the bailout should be somehow tied to bringing back jobs from overseas.

I still think the bailout is strictly to save the necks of the Wall Street executives.

I agree. When are we the tax payer going to get a bailout?