Leadership of key Southern Baptist pastor questioned by church members

I've never understood a 'church' that felt its every action had to be dictated/governed by a committee, rather than by God's Word......

quote:

Originally posted by dogsoldier0513:
I've never understood a 'church' that felt its every action had to be dictated/governed by a committee, rather than by God's Word......

Very Good Point friend!

I am absolutely saddened by the actions of people who claim to be Godly. It is no wonder people do not want to have anything to do with church most of the time. The church is so busy acting like the world you can not tell the difference. While I understand that there must be accountability by pastors (my husband is one) the trend of churches to air all their dirty laundry for all to see is appauling. These are disputes that need to be settled within the confines of the church walls. Unless a law has been broken, there is no need to bring others into it. The only reason for people to do this is to try to get others on their side. If you have a conflict with someone follow biblical principals in solving it. There is nothing in the Bible (and I challenge anyone who can prove me wrong) that says we should start websites or go to newspapers to oust pastors from their jobs. I bet if you did that on your secular job you would be gone in a matter of minutes. While I know that not all pastors are deserving to be in the pastorate because of their actions, most of the time (it has happened to mine twice) the reason pastors are asked to leave the church has nothing to do with immoral or biblical reasons but simply the wrong person in the church got his or her feelings hurt or did not get their way. It is almost criminal the way some churches treat their pastors and I personally think they will answer for it. While I do not know all the circumstances surrounding this situation, I do know it is not being handled properly and I think God is terribly upset that his Bride is fighting yet again. I thiank God for the body of beleivers I get to associate with at this time. They love my husband and I and they have treated us wonderfully. We have SO MUCH to be thankful for but yet we get our "panties in a wad" (yes, a pastor's wife can say panties) if we don't get our own way. There is NOTHING in life that should be all about "ME' so why do people think church should be any different?

The last church my family and I attended, and had planned to call 'home', was operated more like a BUSINESS than a 'church'.

Pastor's & their wife's put on a "face" for their church family to see as do the people that attend church. If you were a "fly on the wall" in each ones home, you would see a completely different person. It's all about "put on".

Taciturn- My husband and I reallt try to be the same both at church and at home. We are NOT perfect and have made many mistakes. The key to it is we try to appologize and learn from our mistakes. I have had bad days when I have said things to people I should not have said or had thoughts I should not have thought. I feel terrible about it, but I go to that person and to God and ask for forgivness. I do know what you are talking about though. There are a lot of people (pastors and parrisheners alike) that try to "put on a show" I don't really understadn that because God knows the true you. My husband and I really try to keep in mind that God is our audience no matter where we are. I also feel like my biggest mission field is my family. If my kids do not see me living it, then I have failed. One other thing, although I do agree with you about this happening and it makes me very sad that it is true, I wondeer why anyone in their right mind would want to pastor a church if you are not totally sold out to livng the life. I know some pastors get large salaries but most do not and the respect for pastors is not what it use to be because of so many who defame the calling, I was wondering if anyone could shed some light as to why someone would want to go into a profession like that if they did not truly beleive it enough to live it out.

To The Preachers Wife...
I am very aware of a situation where the associate pastor of a large church is a total A--hole to his wife and children. I now for a fact, he has not taken her out to a dinner in years, refuses to buy her a mothers day card or recognize her on mothers day because she is not his mother...Well! his mother is alive, and he don't recognize her either...He has not given her a christmas gift in 25 years... has not taken her to dinner or given her anything for their anniversary in years..(35 years, demands she cooks for him every night regardless of how she feels...Yet! will go out almost everyday for lunch or special church dinners and not invite her along...
Sexual foreplay is the phrase.."Get naked and spreadum I want some of that"....
Yet! his congregation love him to death...they think the world sets and rises on his butt... He teaches College Level Sunday School Class, and tells them how they should honor their Father and Mothers, treat your spouse with the utmost loyality...talks about what JOB has taught us, etc
Yes! This guy is fantastic at playing the role..but has a very black heart...
I would love to beat the diggins out of this guy just for his wife...
She is a sweetheart, and one of the nicest people.... my partner and I know she has tried to work several jobs so she can make some funds to leave, but he refuses to allow it. He has thrown such scenes at her places of employment before, that her bosses have asked her to leave...
Yet! This jerk calls himself a Christian and Pastor...
He is just a prime example of why Pastors are looked at with jaundice eye...and have turned so many people away from the Church Doors..

quote:

Originally posted by traderconnections:
To The Preachers Wife...
I am very aware of a situation where the associate pastor of a large church is a total A--hole...................I HATE IT WHEN PEOPLE POST THE WHOLE THING......................away from the Church Doors..

What denomination??? I find that some denominations lend themselves to that type of behavior more than others.

quote:

Originally posted by preechersteveswife:
why someone would want to go into a profession like that if they did not truly beleive it enough to live it out.

For the attention, for being admired, & in some instance's the money. You may be one out of 500 that are not that way, but most are. I may very well bust hell wide open but there is going to be many, many "Christians" right there with me.

quote:

Originally posted by traderconnections:
To The Preachers Wife...
I am very aware of a situation where the associate pastor of a large church is a total A--hole to his wife and children. I now for a fact, he has not taken her out to a dinner in years, refuses to buy her a mothers day card or recognize her on mothers day because she is not his mother...Well! his mother is alive, and he don't recognize her either...He has not given her a christmas gift in 25 years... has not taken her to dinner or given her anything for their anniversary in years..(35 years, demands she cooks for him every night regardless of how she feels...Yet! will go out almost everyday for lunch or special church dinners and not invite her along...
Sexual foreplay is the phrase.."Get naked and spreadum I want some of that"....
Yet! his congregation love him to death...they think the world sets and rises on his butt... He teaches College Level Sunday School Class, and tells them how they should honor their Father and Mothers, treat your spouse with the utmost loyality...talks about what JOB has taught us, etc
Yes! This guy is fantastic at playing the role..but has a very black heart...
I would love to beat the diggins out of this guy just for his wife...
She is a sweetheart, and one of the nicest people.... my partner and I know she has tried to work several jobs so she can make some funds to leave, but he refuses to allow it. He has thrown such scenes at her places of employment before, that her bosses have asked her to leave...
Yet! This jerk calls himself a Christian and Pastor...
He is just a prime example of why Pastors are looked at with jaundice eye...and have turned so many people away from the Church Doors..

That makes me sick for that poor woman!! No telling what he does to her that you do not know about. Sounds like it could run a close second to the Winkler relationship.
She should give him a good swift kick in the ba*ls.

I am finished with the Baptists. After the "conservative" take over of the denomination I left the denomination. Their time in the sun is over.

quote:

Originally posted by preechersteveswife:
I am absolutely saddened by the actions of people who claim to be Godly.

You and I come from different belief systems, but know this: You got moxie, girl. I hope you will stand up to the bas**** if they ever pull some stuff on you again.

Just wanted you to know that.

traderconnections, Tacturn:

I am so sorry that you have had to meet with some of the worse cases! It is sickening to hear these things. I am VERY blessed to have a wonderful man who treats me like a queen. Truth be told he treats me FAR better than I treat him. Yes, churches tend to only get to see one side of their pastor and his family most of the time. People in our church know they are welcome at our house anytime. They also know that when they come in they may well see the preachers underwear in the livingroom. We don't try to put on heirs. The only person I need to try to please besides myself and my husband is my God. I agree with you very much that there will be a lot of "Christians" in hell but I truly hope you are not there with them! I mean that with all my heart. I believe that people who try to play the part only when at church and act like heatherns every other day deserve a special place in hell. They do a great disservice to people who actually try to practice what Jesus teaches. I hope that you will come across some honest "christians" who can show you what being a true believer in Jesus is really all about. I do not say this with any disrespect. I understand how bad so called Christians can hurt people. The last time we went through a church forcefully removing my husband (without any moral or biblical reason) from the pastorate he was serving I did not want to go back to church ever. However, I do not go to church for people I go to church for the Lord. I guess maybe some people may go into being a pastor because they think that there is a lot of attention and you are admired but any pastor worth anything will tell you that there is more pain in being a pastor than there is attention or admiration. If you truly love people, you can not go sit with them through the tough times without it causing you pain. You can not share deaths and births, marriages and divorces without getting attached and therefore having the pain that goes along with those kinds of relationships. Not to mention the tears that are shed when you see someone throwing away there life for a moments pleasure when they won't listen to reason. I have really enjoyed talking to you. This has been a great conversation.

quote:

Originally posted by dogsoldier0513:
I've never understood a 'church' that felt its every action had to be dictated/governed by a committee, rather than by God's Word......

A committee is nothing more than a cul-de-sac in which ideas are lead down and quietly strangled.

I think a committee should be comprised of no more than three people in which two are not present.

quote:

Originally posted by Taciturn:
Pastor's & their wife's put on a "face" for their church family to see as do the people that attend church. If you were a "fly on the wall" in each ones home, you would see a completely different person. It's all about "put on".

Not with everyone.

quote:

Originally posted by preechersteveswife:
Taciturn- My husband and I reallt try to be the same both at church and at home. We are NOT perfect and have made many mistakes. The key to it is we try to appologize and learn from our mistakes. I have had bad days when I have said things to people I should not have said or had thoughts I should not have thought. I feel terrible about it, but I go to that person and to God and ask for forgivness. I do know what you are talking about though. There are a lot of people (pastors and parrisheners alike) that try to "put on a show" I don't really understadn that because God knows the true you. My husband and I really try to keep in mind that God is our audience no matter where we are. I also feel like my biggest mission field is my family. If my kids do not see me living it, then I have failed. One other thing, although I do agree with you about this happening and it makes me very sad that it is true, I wondeer why anyone in their right mind would want to pastor a church if you are not totally sold out to livng the life. I know some pastors get large salaries but most do not and the respect for pastors is not what it use to be because of so many who defame the calling, I was wondering if anyone could shed some light as to why someone would want to go into a profession like that if they did not truly beleive it enough to live it out.

Being a pastor is not a profession you "go into". You are called to that.

I,too, have enjoyed the comments made by all of you on this subject. I have lived some of these occurences. I pray that my actions have not caused any one to look badly at "Christians", as they should be living as/for Jesus not as I live. Thanks to your comments today, I will do better.
God Bless you

HEY everybody, I think I just saw George Jones, bus go by. It was about 40' long and had a 20' utility trailer/car hauler hooked on and had a riding lawnmower on it.lol
"yes,I'm a Possum fan"

quote:

I was wondering if anyone could shed some light as to why someone would want to go into a profession like that if they did not truly beleive it enough to live it out.

quote:

Being a pastor is not a profession you "go into". You are called to that.

outspokenjerk- That is exactly my point. If you are truly called into this profession you want to live it out. I think there are a lot of people calling themselves pastors that would be much better off in another profession. There is a difference between striving to do what is right and consistently living a life of sin. Some people who call themselves pastors do not care how they act and it has caused a lot of people to look down on the church.

As for myself, I will not be "led" by any so-called -leadership. I choose to not be led like lambs, but rather to seek out my own salvation,in fear, before the Lord.

PreacherStevesWife -- I absolutley agree. I am a PK since before I was thought of at all -- well over 30 years. I have grown up in the small country churches where you might have 20 people, but God shows up every time and I've been privileged and blessed enough to sing at the biggest churches with well over 2000 in attendance on Sunday mornings where you can't feel anything except the air conditioning when it kicks on or off. I grew up with a Dad that can still tell you when and where he was when God called him to preach and my mother can tell you how he woke her at 2am to get on their knees together and answer God's call to preach and the fear of the future that came with that decision. I grew up with church on Sunday morning (Sunday School and Preaching) and Sunday Night services (Church Training and Preaching) and Wednesday night Bible Study for the whole church -- we didn't send our toddlers to "daycare" during preaching -- I learned to sit still and be quiet by my mother's side with my dad watching from the pulpit. My dad still to this day preaches from the bible with only and outline of main points to go by and the rest that gets said during his sermon comes from his knowledge, his heart and the mouth of God to his ear.

Preacher's today go to school to be a preacher -- they are not called...it goes back to the saying "Those that can't do--teach" -- Men that don't want to work in the sun or be a school teacher or want an easy salary -- Preach. Churches today look more at education and degrees than they do at how this man came to be a "Man of God".

My dad barely had a high school education and dropped out to learn a trade in the 60s. He and my mom married and went on to have 3 kids. He took the call to preach while my mother was raising 2 kids and found out she was pregnant with me. Talk about faith. He had a great job using his trade and chose to be a bi-vocational preacher. His promise to God was -- if you provide for my family, I'll serve with every breath that I have. My dad ended up quitting that great union job when they told him he would have to work on Sundays. He went on faith. From the mid 1970s until today, my dad still works a full-time job outside of his ministry. He's been working so long -- he doesn't know how to retire.

He worked over 50 hours at his trade every week, studied his Bible and prepared for every sermon til the wee hours of the morning (he would close my bedroom door many nights and drink a glass of milk while studying) because he couldn't sleep until he had given God his time -- then he would preach and teach -- both on Sunday, Sunday night and Wednesday nights.

His being a pastor was bi-vocational -- he had a full-time ministry (often 30-40 hours devoted to the church, the people, the sick and then studying) on a part-time minister's hours for a 1/4 time ministers salary. My dad, still today, doesn't make more than minimum wage if you were calculate the hours to his salary. He devoted his life and raised his family to do God's will.

He didn't wake up morning and say "I think I'll be a preacher." He's woke up a lot of mornings and said, "God, why me? Why did You choose me?" As his family -- we were never to question what he believed was his calling -- we were called the moment we were born -- God put us in the family because of his plan.

I have seen both sides of Christianity and preachers and the Bible teaches that the money is the root of all problems -- look at Jimmy Swaggart and others -- SOME NOT ALL of those ministers were called in the beginning of their ministry, but the money is what changed their hearts.

Don't know that this applies to what this thread is about, but I want to stress that many preachers today are not truly called by God to preach. They were truly not sure what else to do so they went to Seminary and were taught how to pretend to be a preacher...not all of them, but many of them...don't have a clue what it is like to be called to a church, get paid very little, get put in the middle of the fights and drama of the memberships and try to still be a Godly man and show them the way...they don't have a clue what it's like to be at a church that can't pay the preacher because they can't get enough members to give money to even pay the light bill and the preacher winds up paying it out of his pocket.

BTW, my family has NEVER lived in a parsonage -- my dad said that he told God -- I'll go where you send me, but my family will always have a home that is theirs that no one can take away from them on a whim. Many preachers have no where to live if they don't live in a parsonage...they didn't plan like my dad did.

Many churches and members today still don't know what the pastor and his family goes through living in that glass house all of their life - knowing that every decision and every move will be criticized regardless just because of who they are and believe me -- under that burden, we gave them a lot to talk about. We did the best we could but we were not perfect and we didn't try to be -- we were normal with scars and mistakes to prove it.

The Bible is correct when it tells you to raise your child in the ways and they will return to it...I believe all of us have tried "our way" and have still come to remember and love the church as our second family even though we are all adults with our own families now...we were raised in His Love and we continue to be the best that we can be for Him...warts and all...

DixieChick-

You have said it very well. My husband did go to seminary but he only went so he would be better prepared to help people. My husband was called into the ministry at the age of 16 but would not go because he was waiting for me. I wasted a lot of years fighting with God about it. Finally came to my senses. It has been the hardest and most rewarding experience in the world. My kids have seen more junk in a church business meeting than they would ever see on the raunchiest tv stations. It is sad! But I can honestly say it is an awesome priviledge to be able to serve God in this way! God bless you and your parents!

quote:

Originally posted by traderconnections:
To The Preachers Wife...
I am very aware of a situation where the associate pastor of a large church is a total A--hole to his wife and children. I now for a fact, he has not taken her out to a dinner in years, refuses to buy her a mothers day card or recognize her on mothers day because she is not his mother...Well! his mother is alive, and he don't recognize her either...He has not given her a christmas gift in 25 years... has not taken her to dinner or given her anything for their anniversary in years..(35 years, demands she cooks for him every night regardless of how she feels...Yet! will go out almost everyday for lunch or special church dinners and not invite her along...
Sexual foreplay is the phrase.."Get naked and spreadum I want some of that"....
Yet! his congregation love him to death...they think the world sets and rises on his butt... He teaches College Level Sunday School Class, and tells them how they should honor their Father and Mothers, treat your spouse with the utmost loyality...talks about what JOB has taught us, etc
Yes! This guy is fantastic at playing the role..but has a very black heart...
I would love to beat the diggins out of this guy just for his wife...
She is a sweetheart, and one of the nicest people.... my partner and I know she has tried to work several jobs so she can make some funds to leave, but he refuses to allow it. He has thrown such scenes at her places of employment before, that her bosses have asked her to leave...
Yet! This jerk calls himself a Christian and Pastor...
He is just a prime example of why Pastors are looked at with jaundice eye...and have turned so many people away from the Church Doors..

I have seen same and similar situations too many times in my life to count. I have even known of a preacher right here in the area that actually broke up THREE marriages by sleeping with the men's wives. HOW SAD IS THAT???

quote:

Originally posted by preechersteveswife:
DixieChick-

You have said it very well. My husband did go to seminary but he only went so he would be better prepared to help people. My husband was called into the ministry at the age of 16 but would not go because he was waiting for me. I wasted a lot of years fighting with God about it. Finally came to my senses. It has been the hardest and most rewarding experience in the world. My kids have seen more junk in a church business meeting than they would ever see on the raunchiest tv stations. It is sad! But I can honestly say it is an awesome priviledge to be able to serve God in this way! God bless you and your parents!

If people only knew some of the things I heard when my parents were counseling some very distinguished members of our church -- "Days of our LIves" and "All My Children" aint got nothin' on these stories...

I agree with you that it has been a rewarding experience and it taught me to deal with a lot of things that I would not have handled very well.

My mom didn't have much of a choice -- let's just say God dealt with them both and they answered. I on the other hand, had the hard choice of dating someone in the ministry several years back and at that point in my life -- even though I was living right and was in a ministry of my own -- I couldn't choose to share his ministry with him -- it was going to make for too large of a glass house and my emotional state couldn't have handled it. We remained great friends and God sent him the perfect wife a few years later so I guess if you really look at it -- I made the right decision and so did he.

quote:

Originally posted by themax:
As for myself, I will not be "led" by any so-called -leadership. I choose to not be led like lambs, but rather to seek out my own salvation,in fear, before the Lord.

I think you are taking the word just a little to literal. The leadership of a church is not your boss. They don't tell you what to do. They are there as "CALLED" by God, ministers of the gospel, and leaders of the church, not bosses or CEO's.

Man, you guys are judgmental. No offense & y'all know I love you, but this just goes on and on and on. I hope no one ever holds you all to the same standard you hold pastors and Baptists.

Committees are formed for organizational purposes, nothing more and nothing less. You also have to practically beg people to be on them because it usually requires a lot of work - how much dependent on type of committee & what's happening in that area at the time you are on it.

I cannot believe this story actually made the news and was considered newsworthy. Please. His church appears to be holding him accountable and handling the situation well.

quote:

Originally posted by outspokenjerk:

quote:

Originally posted by themax:
As for myself, I will not be "led" by any so-called -leadership. I choose to not be led like lambs, but rather to seek out my own salvation,in fear, before the Lord.

I think you are taking the word just a little to literal. The leadership of a church is not your boss. They don't tell you what to do. They are there as "CALLED" by God, ministers of the gospel, and leaders of the church, not bosses or CEO's.

Wait! Did I just read that you said someone was a "little to literal" in their interpretation of the scripture?

Dixiechick...
I just read about how you were raised and your dad'd devotion to being called to the church...What struck me is his strong character and the makings of a good man...
It made me smile, as it brought back memories of my own grandfather, as he had traits such as your dad, however, he was not a minister...I truthly miss that man...it was my idol and here at 58 years old, I can still say I never met a better man...
I am sure you can say the same for your dad...

I hear the word called used quite frequently. I hear some nurses say they were called, and I perhaps have used that same expression. There have been two vocations/professsions I have had an interest in, and by God's grace I have managed to enter them both. Yet, if someone asked what I meant by called, I would say I had a natural interest/talent for it. Is that what you mean by called to be a pulpit minister?

quote:

Originally posted by traderconnections:
Dixiechick...
I just read about how you were raised and your dad'd devotion to being called to the church...What struck me is his strong character and the makings of a good man...
It made me smile, as it brought back memories of my own grandfather, as he had traits such as your dad, however, he was not a minister...I truthly miss that man...it was my idol and here at 58 years old, I can still say I never met a better man...
I am sure you can say the same for your dad...

I have said on this forum before that if you had asked me about my dad at age 16 I would have told you he was the spawn of satan because those were the teenage years, but if you ask me now in my 30s -- he was a true gift from God and so was my mother and the rest of my family.

He is not perfect -- no person is, but when I look at who I am today and where I've come from I am truly grateful for the family I was raised in and the sacrifice my parents made to follow what they felt was what God wanted them to do. My dad has the strength and character and so does my mom, but the thing I love most about them is they are strong enough to admit their weakenesses and to allow those weaknesses to show when it's appropriate and to be able to help others see that side of them without losing their strengths. That may not make sense to some, but it is a very powerful thing to witness.

I'm happy that you had someone in your past that you could look too.

quote:

Originally posted by FirenzeVeritas:
I hear the word called used quite frequently. I hear some nurses say they were called, and I perhaps have used that same expression. There have been two vocations/professsions I have had an interest in, and by God's grace I have managed to enter them both. Yet, if someone asked what I meant by called, I would say I had a natural interest/talent for it. Is that what you mean by called to be a pulpit minister?

In many ways yes that is what I mean, but there is something more when being called to be a preacher or something in the religious work -- it has to be or you wouldn't do it I don't think. YOu get the slaps and jabs like started out on this thread and you get lumped into a group and stereotyped -- and with religion it tends to be more cruel than even to be a cop or dr or whatever because with religion you are demanded to be perfect even though perfection is impossible. But I think ifyou are where you "feel" you need to be and where you were "drawn" to be then, yes, I think you were "called." There is a peace that comes with making the decision to do the work that you were called to do and if you have that -- then you are right on track.

quote:

Originally posted by meanasasnake:

quote:

Originally posted by outspokenjerk:

quote:

Originally posted by themax:
As for myself, I will not be "led" by any so-called -leadership. I choose to not be led like lambs, but rather to seek out my own salvation,in fear, before the Lord.

I think you are taking the word just a little to literal. The leadership of a church is not your boss. They don't tell you what to do. They are there as "CALLED" by God, ministers of the gospel, and leaders of the church, not bosses or CEO's.

Wait! Did I just read that you said someone was a "little to literal" in their interpretation of the scripture?

That's what you wanted to read. What I said and what I meant was not refering to scripture at all. I was talking about the word "led" in the since that the pastor does not have some kind of CEO/boss role. I appreciate your concern, though.

quote:

Originally posted by _Joy_:
Man, you guys are judgmental. No offense & y'all know I love you, but this just goes on and on and on. I hope no one ever holds you all to the same standard you hold pastors and Baptists.

Committees are formed for organizational purposes, nothing more and nothing less. You also have to practically beg people to be on them because it usually requires a lot of work - how much dependent on type of committee & what's happening in that area at the time you are on it.

I cannot believe this story actually made the news and was considered newsworthy. Please. His church appears to be holding him accountable and handling the situation well.

I am sorry Joy, I did not mean to offend but although some committees are okay, I think there are some that are just ridiculous. Now, I did make the above statements as a means for a laugh but with this particular subject there is some truth in those for me. But regardless, I am sorry if I offended.

quote:

Originally posted by outspokenjerk:

quote:

Originally posted by _Joy_:
Man, you guys are judgmental. No offense & y'all know I love you, but this just goes on and on and on. I hope no one ever holds you all to the same standard you hold pastors and Baptists.

Committees are formed for organizational purposes, nothing more and nothing less. You also have to practically beg people to be on them because it usually requires a lot of work - how much dependent on type of committee & what's happening in that area at the time you are on it.

I cannot believe this story actually made the news and was considered newsworthy. Please. His church appears to be holding him accountable and handling the situation well.

I am sorry Joy, I did not mean to offend but although some committees are okay, I think there are some that are just ridiculous. Now, I did make the above statements as a means for a laugh but with this particular subject there is some truth in those for me. But regardless, I am sorry if I offended.

None taken, osj. Yes, committees can be tiresome if they appear to do more talking than doing. However, since you cannot sign up for every committee and somebody else is willing to do the work, you have to trust them to get the job done. I admit that this is difficult at times.

DixieCh- I am so glad your responded to this thread. My husband and I have wondered about the affect of some churches on our kids. They have witnessed their dad go through awful experiences from churches we have been in. I know your parents have seen their share of hate in the church also. It is good to hear you are not bitter from it. I know alot of PKs are. As for committees, a committee can be good as long as they keep in mind that they are there to get a certain thing done and not run the entire church. Some people think it is their job to force their will on others when it is not what is best for the church. Joy- Pastors ARE held to a higher standard (which is fine) but there is a difference to being held to a higher standard and being expected to be perfect. I know that pastors and their wife (or Christians in general) should not go around being mean, gossiping, cheating on their spouses, etc but just because a pastor or his wife did not see you at the hospital when you had a hang nail does not mean he should not be a pastor. Believe me this is NOT an exaggeration! Some people really do get their hineys on their shoulders for no good reason at all.

I am not bitter against the church or God or my parents, but there are certain members and former members that I am not very fond of (to say the least) but i would still be the polite young woman that I was raised to be. Some PEOPLE have said and done things to our family as a whole, as well as, to us as individuals on top of what was said and done against my dad, but I do think that the church and its membership play a huge role in the lives of the members. We have gotten away from the community and extended family helping you raise your children and that has made it harder on you as the parent because you have no "help".

It used to be that the older people would correct the children -- don't run in church (the sanctuary specifically) -- don't talk during prayer -- stay out of the street -- etc. Now, if you get onto a child, you fear getting attacked by the parent. Those are little things, but in the overall picture, those little things helped me with the bigger things. I had plenty of "moms" and "dads" and had a nickname from several of them -- "cricket" and "songbird" were two I remember well because I sing.

We've gotten away from so much that made life "in the old days" easier...and we don't even realize what we are missing because we are so busy trying to live life to the fullest...

With that said, we have gotten away from the church becasue we are too busy playing politics and wearing our heart on our sleeves and forgetting the basic things that the Bible teaches...we are too busy throwing stones to realize that others are throwing them at us for some of the same things...I remember a parable in the Bible about a plank in the eye, but the whole story leaves me, but you get my point...we are too busy finding fault with everyone else to see our own faults...

Even if you don't believe in God it is still the same thing -- we are too busy worrying about everyone else's business to take care of our own...and yes, I'm preaching to myself....

What would your church look like if you took away the pastor(s), the music and worship, the buildings, the favored programs, the sacraments and ceremonies, as well as the events and Sunday School? What would you have left? The answer of what is left is what impacts and what resounds in your church, and is where your church’s health lies. Because doing church is not about the pastor, the observances, or the programs. It is about how we come to know and grow in Christ, connect with one another, and serve Him, both inside and outside of the church walls. Pastors are to train us to do that as they point to Christ’s Authority and Lordship. The music helps keep us focused to praise Him, and the Sunday School helps disciple us. These are just ingredients; they are not the meal. Nevertheless, if these ingredients did go away, there should not be panic and crises if a church is centered upon Christ and not personalities and programs. Because what we have left is what is most important, and that is Christ, His presence, and His impact on us all. Leaders and programs are not the church. You are the church and your attitude of worship and spiritual formation is what resounds in His ears, what pleases Him, and, collectively with others, what builds a healthy church. If we forget this, we fail at what we are called to do! Remember! There were no vestments, pulpits, power points, hymnals, choirs, liturgies, rituals, bulletins, faculties, ushers, staff, or programs at Pentecost, in the Early Church, or even in many healthy churches today. What is present is His Impact upon the hearts and minds of His people, and His continuing work of love, reconciliation, and redemption upon all who make up a church. Is Christ impacting and resounding in your church, or is it something else?



Is Your Church Healthy?



A healthy church is one that is filled with His presence, is motivated to serve Him, and has love for “one another.”
http://www.intothyword.org/articles_view.asp?articleid=32767&columnid=3881

Oh boy, PBA, you truly hit the nail on the head. I remember vividly from my childhood a church (still in existence in Muscle Shoals) that was literally split in two (the other half who left formed a new church which is also still in existence) by a sinful action their pastor (demi-god) committed because he was and is only a mere mortal, after all, like the rest of us. I remember my mother talking about it with some other ladies from the church we attended (a different denomination) and saying how it sure was a shame that so many people come to worship the pastor or the traditions of the church and when something changes, they simply cannot handle it. It was the same in the church my parents attended when I was smaller before we moved membership across town. We had lots of men who were in the National Guard who attended the church but had to leave early on Sundays when they were required to report to drill. Because of this, they would miss the communion portion of the service because it was always held at the end of the service. Well, it was proposed to have the communion moved to the middle of the service so these men could participate and you would have thought, the way some people acted, that we were proposing to re-write the Bible. It was simply tradition, but they thought, because it had been done that way for SO long (and because they didn't really KNOW their scripture) that we were in some way going against the Bible's teachings by moving the communion to an earlier time in the service. Now this was 30 years ago....if they were behaving like that in "the olden, golden days" imagine what it's like now... By the way, the reason my parents switched their membership was also because of a similar, although much more sinister, incident. The church leadership had hired a REALLY good minister who preached the Bible and only the Bible without regard to whose toes it might step on....well, one Sunday morning he preached a sermon that stepped BIG TIME on the toes of the one woman who ran that church behind the scenes and she threw such a hissy fit to her husband (one of the elders) that the church leadership fired the poor man only months after hiring him. To this day, my father will not darken the door of that church because some of that same leadership are still in power. Such a shame, when it should be God who is in power, but there you go....

DG in SC...FYI (& no offense to pba!), that is not pba's opinion - it is a cut and past from the site referenced at bottom of her post.

All...Churches, being made up of normal people (by that I mean with strengths and weaknesses just like all of us) go through difficult times as well as periods of peace, effectiveness, activity, inactivity, growth...to name a few...much like individuals, businesses, organizations, families, blah blah blah I'm sure there are churches that are healthier than others, but that's true of all of us as well. Although it is good to do a self evaluation as a church and individually, bottom line is that I can't really put down someone else for falling short when I fall short every day...like the story of the Pharisee & the tax collector (Luke 18). I don't want to be a Pharisee.