Jury convicts Dale, Shannon Hickman of manslaughter in faith-healing trial
Steve Mayes ("The Washington Post," September 30, 2011)

Oregon City, USA - A jury on Thursday (Sept. 29) unanimously convicted an Oregon couple, Dale and Shannon Hickman, in the faith-healing death of their infant son.

Both parents were found guilty of second-degree manslaughter, a Class B felony that requires a sentence of at least six years and three months in prison under Oregon’s mandatory sentencing law. However, because of a religious exemption that was eliminated after the Hickmans were indicted, they could face less than 18 months in prison and a $250,000 fine.

 

http://wwrn.org/articles/36289...section=christianity

 

This is how dangerous religion can be. There are some people in this world that are taking this BS seriously. Their minds are weak and gullible.

 

Original Post

I know Semi, it is so sad and disgusting. I am glad that the they overturned the Religious Exemption law so that no one can get away with this kind of thing again and not be punished.

 

People who believe in a God this strongly are completely stupid. They should take away their other children before they let them die of something that modern medicine could fix.

Originally Posted by DarkAngel:

People who believe in a God this strongly are completely stupid. They should take away their other children before they let them die of something that modern medicine could fix.

________________________________

True, & when they lose a child because of medical neglect they say it was "God's will" that the child died.

People like that don't need children. Let them kill their self by withholding medical care.

Originally Posted by semiannualchick:
Originally Posted by DarkAngel:

People who believe in a God this strongly are completely stupid. They should take away their other children before they let them die of something that modern medicine could fix.

________________________________

True, & when they lose a child because of medical neglect they say it was "God's will" that the child died.

People like that don't need children. Let them kill their self by withholding medical care.

I'll bet that these parents were "pro life".

When I first saw this reported it had their pictures. She was wearing glasses. Now if they don't believe in doctors shouldn't that mean ALL doctors? Mama gets glasses but baby gets to die, Someone posted that at trial she didn't have the glasses, her lawyer got her contacts. I guess he was afraid others would ask why she gets medical help, glasses, but denies it to her children. I did see another picture of her without them.

 

 

Originally Posted by DarkAngel:

Jury convicts Dale, Shannon Hickman of manslaughter in faith-healing trial
Steve Mayes ("The Washington Post," September 30, 2011)

Oregon City, USA - A jury on Thursday (Sept. 29) unanimously convicted an Oregon couple, Dale and Shannon Hickman, in the faith-healing death of their infant son.

Both parents were found guilty of second-degree manslaughter, a Class B felony that requires a sentence of at least six years and three months in prison under Oregon’s mandatory sentencing law. However, because of a religious exemption that was eliminated after the Hickmans were indicted, they could face less than 18 months in prison and a $250,000 fine.

 

http://wwrn.org/articles/36289...section=christianity

 

This is how dangerous religion can be. There are some people in this world that are taking this BS seriously. Their minds are weak and gullible.

 

---------------------------------------------------

This is ridiculous and the parents deserve what judgement they receive.

People/parents have got to stop playing God.

 

The world has enough trouble with secular serial or recreational killers.

 

.

Originally Posted by Shoals Resident:

Jimi, are you betting that the people on this forum that think this was horrible for the parents to deny medical care for this infant (and yes I do) are pro-abortion?


I took that to refer to how strongly many feel about not allowing anyone to have an abortion and how much of a sin that is to them, but once a baby is born it seems for some people that the whole philosophy of protecting the child is tossed out. That is horrible that a baby is made to suffer and die when treatment could make a difference, but the irony is that often groups with strong anti-intervention beliefs also preach how sinful abortion is.  It is sad and makes no sense to me personally.  I didn't personally take it to mean anything but that.

Originally Posted by frog:
Originally Posted by Shoals Resident:

Jimi, are you betting that the people on this forum that think this was horrible for the parents to deny medical care for this infant (and yes I do) are pro-abortion?


I took that to refer to how strongly many feel about not allowing anyone to have an abortion and how much of a sin that is to them, but once a baby is born it seems for some people that the whole philosophy of protecting the child is tossed out. That is horrible that a baby is made to suffer and die when treatment could make a difference, but the irony is that often groups with strong anti-intervention beliefs also preach how sinful abortion is.  It is sad and makes no sense to me personally.  I didn't personally take it to mean anything but that.

------------------------------------------------

Were the Mayes anti abortion? I would like to see a number of the people

like the Mayes compared to the everyday people who stab, beat, starve

toss babies everyday. The Mayes are misguided,but to drag abortion to

the table to cover all crimes against chrildern?????

 

.

Originally Posted by Shoals Resident:

Jimi, are you betting that the people on this forum that think this was horrible for the parents to deny medical care for this infant (and yes I do) are pro-abortion?

No and where did you get that idea. My statement was about them. It had nothing to do with anyone else. Feeling a little guilty yourself? Don't run when no one is chasing you.

Originally Posted by INVICTUS:
Originally Posted by frog:
Originally Posted by Shoals Resident:

Jimi, are you betting that the people on this forum that think this was horrible for the parents to deny medical care for this infant (and yes I do) are pro-abortion?


I took that to refer to how strongly many feel about not allowing anyone to have an abortion and how much of a sin that is to them, but once a baby is born it seems for some people that the whole philosophy of protecting the child is tossed out. That is horrible that a baby is made to suffer and die when treatment could make a difference, but the irony is that often groups with strong anti-intervention beliefs also preach how sinful abortion is.  It is sad and makes no sense to me personally.  I didn't personally take it to mean anything but that.

------------------------------------------------

Were the Mayes anti abortion? I would like to see a number of the people

like the Mayes compared to the everyday people who stab, beat, starve

toss babies everyday. The Mayes are misguided,but to drag abortion to

the table to cover all crimes against chrildern?????

 

.

__________________________________

 

First who are the Mayes?

 

The people in this story are more than misguided. They are stupid or evil. Either way their child is dead due to their belief in religion. I agree that being religious they are more than likely anti-abortion, and as frog said many religious people such as the Hickmans would argue against abortion, yet let a child born die unnecessarily. Makes no sense at all.

 

Here is a few more of those "everyday people"

 

Carl and Raylene Worthington were indicted Friday on charges of manslaughter and criminal mistreatment in the death of their 15-month-old daughter Ava. They belong to the Followers of Christ Church, whose members have a history of treating gravely ill children only with prayer.

Ava died March 2 of bronchial pneumonia and a blood infection. The state medical examiner’s office has said she could have been treated with antibiotics.

 

Grand Junction -- Charges have been filed against the parents of a 13-year-old girl who died from a common infection that turned into gangrene after her parents opted to treat her with prayer but not medicine.

Randy and Colleen Bates, members of the General Assembly Church of the First Born, were issued summonses Friday on charges of criminally negligent homicide, reckless manslaughter, reckless child abuse resulting in death, and criminally negligent child abuse resulting in death.

Church of the First Born members believe there is a biblical injunction against medical treatment. They treat illnesses and injuries with prayer.

 

WAUSAU, Wis. —  A central Wisconsin man accused of killing his 11-year-old daughter by praying instead of seeking medical care was found guilty Saturday of second-degree reckless homicide.

Dale Neumann, 47, was convicted in the March 23, 2008, death of his daughter, Madeline, from undiagnosed diabetes. Prosecutors contended he should have rushed the girl to a hospital because she couldn't walk, talk, eat or drink. Instead, Madeline died on the floor of the family's rural Weston home as people surrounded her and prayed.

Someone called 911 when she stopped breathing.

 

 

Once again, these are crazy people. If their craziness had not manifested itself in this way, it would have been in a different way, but because it was their misguided religious beliefs that led to their children's deaths, you blame it on religion.

 

That's would be like some idiot leaving their kid locked in a hot car while they go shopping, and when the kid dies, you blame it on the MALL. It wasn't the strong, irresistable draw of the mall that caused it, but the negligence of the parents.

 

Or how about the eight-year -old who was killed last year in Massachusetts, when his father and the rifle range instructor both agreed that this eight-year-old was strong enough to shoot a powerful automatic weapon? Remember that? The gun flipped in his hands and blew his head off. Was that the fault of the GUN MANUFACTURER? No! It was negligence on the part of both the father and the instructor!

 

These deaths you list are due to negligence, not to religion. MOST Christians believe that a doctor's skill is one of the many gifts God has given us, and although we do pray when a loved one is sick, that prayer more often than not is a prayer that He will guide the doctor's hands and mind.

Originally Posted by DarkAngel:
Originally Posted by INVICTUS:
 

------------------------------------------------

Were the Mayes anti abortion? I would like to see a number of the people

like the Mayes compared to the everyday people who stab, beat, starve

toss babies everyday. The Mayes are misguided,but to drag abortion to

the table to cover all crimes against chrildern?????

 

.__________________________________

 

First who are the Mayes?

 

The people in this story are more than misguided. They are stupid or evil. Either way their child is dead due to their belief in religion. I agree that being religious they are more than likely anti-abortion, and as frog said many religious people such as the Hickmans would argue against abortion, yet let a child born die unnecessarily. Makes no sense at all.

 

 

  

------------------------------------------------

What I'm saying is billions and billions of chrildren are raised by religious

people, most atheist are raised by religious parents. And all is well.

The Mayes may be both evil and stupid but where is the sympathy for

the babies killed by the boy friends because it cried too much or

all the other reasons that any ******* that kills a child.

 

I'm sure not saying anything for the Mayes, but here we go for a

another five day and six nights of "religion kills baby".

 

 

The only and main reason all these examples did not seek medical help for their children was religion. You guys can try and deflect and bring up all the other stories of childrens death you want to. Does not change the topic of this discussion. Not just one, but there have been many in Oregon alone that have allowed their children to die like this. They all cry that it was their religion. Who are you two to decide otherwise? I have not said that your religion is like this. I said religion in general. And in this case it is true. Like it or not. I do agree with you O No. These people are more than likely crazy. So are the millions of others that believe in this BS so strongly that they think God will save their child by praying about it. Anyone who would not seek medical help and instead trust in something with nothing more than a fairy tale book to go on have to be crazy, delusional at best.

 

Y

Yeah DA, but if the person who let their kid die in a hot car while they went to the mall is an atheist, I reserve the right to blame their atheism for the child's death. After all, they should have been in church instead of at the mall.

 

That was a joke, by the way.

 

But seriously, we have had this discussion in various different forms dozens of times here. I think this one is number 6 on the list of repeated discussions.

 

There are lots of crazy people in the world who do terrible things in the name of their craziness. Some are Christian, some are atheist, some are Muslim, some are Republican, some are Democrats, some are Green Party. Some are Boy Scouts, some are 4Hers. Some are men and some are women.

 

Lorena Bobbit claims she committed her infamous act because she was a woman who had been cheated on. Was that REALLY the reason? If it were, there would be a LOT more men in this world sitting down when they have to go. But actually her mental instability caused her to do what she did.

 

No matter WHAT the stated reason for all of these horrible acts, the REAL reason is insanity. Heck, there have been instances of people doing crazy things because their horiscope told them to. Does that mean horiscopes are evil? No, it just means that some people are so unbalanced that they hear voices and see signs in everything. The horiscope didn't cause them to be insane, but their insanity caused them to think the horiscope told them to kill.

 

Jared Loughner shot a bunch of people because he thought, well, I'm not sure WHAT he thought, but you get my point. Crazy is crazy, and to blame it on anything else is, well, crazy.

"No and where did you get that idea. My statement was about them. It had nothing to do with anyone else. Feeling a little guilty yourself? Don't run when no one is chasing you."

 

Not feeling guilty at all.  Once again you posted an idiotic post refering to your betting that this couple were "pro-life".  Their view, whether pro-life or pro-abortion has nothing to do with their crime of failing as parents and as human beings.  Do you feel guilty about stirring the pot with betting on their stance of that issue? 

 

Since you failed to see the point I was trying to make I will try to make it simpler so that you might grasp it.  Simply because those of us that had posted our view that these parents were wrong did not automatically denote our view on pro-life or pro-abortion.  No you just seem to enjoy posting your idiotic and hateful posts concerning anything that has to do with religion.  You come across as a very bitter person that deems anyone with a view different than yours as being idiots.  Doesn't speak highly of your intelligence. Or then again maybe it does say alot about your intelligence. 

Originally Posted by O No!:

Lorena Bobbit claims she committed her infamous act because she was a woman who had been cheated on. Was that REALLY the reason? If it were, there would be a LOT more men in this world sitting down when they have to go. But actually her mental instability caused her to do what she did.

No matter WHAT the stated reason for all of these horrible acts, the REAL reason is insanity.

_____________________________

O No, my friend, did Lorena Bobbit’s husband not cause her mental instability by acting like a single man & driving her to that point?

 

Since the topic is concerning people that rely on God to heal, not all people that stand on their faith would be considered insane, just stupid to carry it so far.

 

For example: I at one time attended a Church Of God. Not the strict United, but those that believe in the laying on of hands & praying for a healing.

(What was I thinking!  )

A friend of mine kept complaining of an earache. It got so bad that she couldn’t hear out of that ear. Every church service, she would go to the alter, get hands laid on her & pray for a healing. Many people, including the Pastor, told her God had healed her ear.

 

The pain persisted, so she thought the Devil was trying to make her think she hadn’t been healed. The church kept telling her to stand on her faith, because they knew she had been healed.

 

Finally, the pain & loss of hearing got so bad, she sneaked off to an ear doctor. Her ear drum had burst weeks back, & gotten infected. Due to lack of medical care, she now has permanent ear loss in that ear.

I wouldn’t call her & the people in that church insane.

I don't see how people not getting help for a sick child because their religion states that it is wrong to do so and that prayer will cure the child isn't related to their religion? 

 

Saying an atheist who leaves a child in a hot car to die does it because of religion or that religion or lack of it is to blame is silly.  There is no atheist belief that says it is okay to kill your child or neglect one, either, or anything at all related to not being okay to keep them out of locked hot cars.  

 

This religion apparently does say that what they did is what their God wants them to do.  That isn't to say all religions would, of course, but in this case strict adherence to their religion was a direct case of the child's death.  Was there mental instability?  Most likely so, since someone who is sooo enmeshed in fear and adherence to doctrine over common sense and instinct isn't thinking clearly by most standards.  It makes me also think they might have been brought up this way and brainwashed into it, or perhaps even as adults.

 

Originally Posted by semiannualchick:
Originally Posted by O No!:

Lorena Bobbit claims she committed her infamous act because she was a woman who had been cheated on. Was that REALLY the reason? If it were, there would be a LOT more men in this world sitting down when they have to go. But actually her mental instability caused her to do what she did.

No matter WHAT the stated reason for all of these horrible acts, the REAL reason is insanity.

_____________________________

O No, my friend, did Lorena Bobbit’s husband not cause her mental instability by acting like a single man & driving her to that point?

 

Since the topic is concerning people that rely on God to heal, not all people that stand on their faith would be considered insane, just stupid to carry it so far.

 

For example: I at one time attended a Church Of God. Not the strict United, but those that believe in the laying on of hands & praying for a healing.

(What was I thinking!  )

A friend of mine kept complaining of an earache. It got so bad that she couldn’t hear out of that ear. Every church service, she would go to the alter, get hands laid on her & pray for a healing. Many people, including the Pastor, told her God had healed her ear.

 

The pain persisted, so she thought the Devil was trying to make her think she hadn’t been healed. The church kept telling her to stand on her faith, because they knew she had been healed.

 

Finally, the pain & loss of hearing got so bad, she sneaked off to an ear doctor. Her ear drum had burst weeks back, & gotten infected. Due to lack of medical care, she now has permanent ear loss in that ear.

I wouldn’t call her & the people in that church insane.


How sad for your friend  Anyone who claims to be a healer or leader of people who tells a person to not seek medical help if needed isn't working on the client/patient/church member's best interest and has another agenda, such as isolation or dependency, controlling, etc..

 

No, that isn't insane.  It is not hard to install fear in people that if they don't do xyz they will (insert favorite punishment such as go to hell, curse the children, fail and get God's displeasure, be thrown out of church and the community, etc.), and I don't see these people as insane at all.  Brainwashed?  Yes.  No healthy sense of self or reality, really, but not insane.

Semi, I don't think Lorena Bobbit was driven to insanity by her husband's ways. If she had been, there would be a lot more crazy women with knives running around out there. Either that or a lot fewer guys who cheat. There are LOTS of guys who cheat, and THEIR wives aren't crazy.

 

Frog, I SAID that my atheist/hot car analogy was a joke.

 

I know of no church that says it's OK to kill your kids. There ARE obviously, some churches that believe in prayer and not doctors. But IMO, it is more akin to Jonestown - some person in power is eaten up with that power and brainwashes people into doing what he says. Look at all the people who have kids run off to join the Hari Krishnas, and then pay someone to "deprogram" them. Look at "Reverand" Moon and his brainwashed following.

 

Anyone can use any idea/cause/religion, or what-have-you, and twist it to the point they can brainwash people. That doesn't make the idea/cause/religion evil. Just the people who use it for their own purposes.

I've seen these cults in California. A lot of the smaller ones would have a leader that used LSD or some other drug to make the congregation experience God or some kind of tranquilizer to cure their pains. When they were sick again, they were told they were sinning and needed to contribute more money. Episcopalians don't believe in faith healing but do believe in honest prayers.

Originally Posted by O No!:

 

These deaths you list are due to negligence, not to religion. MOST Christians believe that a doctor's skill is one of the many gifts God has given us, and although we do pray when a loved one is sick, that prayer more often than not is a prayer that He will guide the doctor's hands and mind.

_____________

Interesting. God will direct the doctor, but won't affect the disease. 

It's simplistic and untrue to claim that this couple (or any other) is medically/psychologically crazy. What they are is deluded by their faith in their particular religion. Which is why DA is correct that the death of this child (and the others) is due to religion. Until I see proof that any of these murderers are actually diagnosed as insane, they're strictly another example of what faith without evidence is capable of.

Delusions are very powerful things. At just the right moment they slip in and take over ones eyesight and mind(there is no hindsight). All it takes is one or two people in a position of authority and the damage is done. I hate to use the term but "sheeple" immediately comes to mind. It's so easy a caveman could fall for it. Religion anyone?

I'll have what she's not having. Life is complicated enough without all the lies, delusions and deception. I'll find my own way. Thanks anyway. I appreciate your concern but I'm doing fine.
Interesting how many seem to lump all Christians together and make judgments about them based upon the actions of just a fringe, few. Yet if this is done by a Christian you hear never-ending accusations. The people who did this were wrong and misled possibly following a particular denomination which teaches in faith healing. It is my personal belief that just like miracles and speaking in tongues and faith healing diminished in the period of Grace and faith. Many of those things were used, by the Holy Spirit, in order to confirm Christ and His statements to being God and God's Son. Today we are in a time of Grace and where by faith we please God and not by sight or miracles or public healing. This isn't to say that there are not cases of healing, in response to prayer, or in the gift of tongues or other various gifts but, in my opinion, overall those things, as confirming signs, have ceased. Today it is the personal ministry of God's Holy Spirit with each person that God chooses to minister and approach mankind.

The Bible does not condone negligence and murder.  What they were doing was "tempting the Lord their God".  It's just too bad that it wasn't in the form of one of them stepping off a tall building or holding a snake rather than the life of their child.  Basically, it has much less to do with their beliefs and more to do with the fact that they are nuts.

 

A weak and a troubled mind doesn't need religion to hurt others.  It will find an avenue to justify it's wrongdoing.  Religion is one of many excuses for it.  In fact, those of you holding up religion as the underlying cause for this crime are letting this couple off too easy.  The religion is not the criminal here.  These parents are the criminals and solely responsible for their crime.

GK, I never said anything about Christians. I have said religion. Many beliefs are religious. Not just yours.

 

These people were doing what they believed the bible said for them to do. They didn't just neglect the baby they prayed over it and ask God to heal it. When ask by the proscecutor why the father didn't call 911 he responded "I was busy praying"

 

This is religion. Putting all their belief into something with no evidence or proof while ignoring all the real evidence and proof. I think most religious people call that faith, right?

 

Seem like in this forum alone there are several different interpretations of what the bible means in one scripture or another. Bill believes in OSAS, Contendah doesn't. Invictus believes that Mary is sacred and blessed and Bill doesn't. So these people believed that going to the Dr. is not trusting Gods power to heal. In the end every last example is religion.

 

Semi your example of the church you attend with your friend is perfect. They believed and have faith they are doing what is right. Doesn't make them crazy. I might say delusional or weak minded. Easily fooled. However they are no different than any other strongly religious group.

 

I wonder why this is such a hard pill for some to swallow here. Why can you not admit that these people were following their religion by not seeking medical help for their child? Nothing else influenced them. There were several adults present in the house that night and NONE of them called 911 to get medical help. They were all praying to God. So all of them were just crazy and it had nothing to do with their religion? Is that right?

Well said, DarkAngel.  You put it exactly how I was thinking and put it well.  It doesn't mean that every "religious" person would do that, of course...that is obvious, but there are many who do things based on their religion that they might not do otherwise.

 

I go to church at a place that pretty well fits what I believe (well, our local one does...I can't speak to other groups within this church), and I wouldn't want to be in one because they told me what to do.  I chose because I agreed with the principles, not the principles dictating my actions.  There is a  big difference, in my opinion.

Originally Posted by DarkAngel:
Semi your example of the church you attend with your friend is perfect.

 

I wonder why this is such a hard pill for some to swallow here. Why can you not admit that these people were following their religion by not seeking medical help for their child? Nothing else influenced them.

_______________________________

That was a church I attended many years ago. I don't attend church, haven't for several years.

 

I agree that nothing else influenced these people but their religion/faith. I don't think they were insane, maybe  ignorant? I think they should be punished for they are directly responsible for the death of this baby.

 

 

Originally Posted by semiannualchick:
Originally Posted by gbrk:
It is my personal belief that just like miracles and speaking in tongues and faith healing diminished in the period of Grace and faith.
This isn't to say that there are not cases of healing, in response to prayer, or in the gift of tongues or other various gifts but, in my opinion, overall those things, as confirming signs, have ceased.

__________________________

How can you say that these things have diminished, & ceased but then say "This isn't to say that there are not cases of healing, in response to prayer, or in the gift of tongues"?

This reminds me of the story in the TD awhile back about the person who was in a wreck out on 72 praising and thanking the people who stopped and formed a prayer circle at the scene.

  Nice.  Don't dial 9-1-1 or anything and call someone who might actually be able to do something...  Just form a circle and hold hands and pray..... Nice.

  The fire chief that happened to be passing by also stopped and joined the #$&*ing prayer circle.

 

If that had been me in that wreck, they would have suddenly been praying for someone to save them from the bleeding lunatic crawling out of the wreckage.

 

Again, prayer is the least effective thing you can do and still feel good about yourself.

  

Originally Posted by Road Puppy:

This reminds me of the story in the TD awhile back about the person who was in a wreck out on 72 praising and thanking the people who stopped and formed a prayer circle at the scene.

  Nice.  Don't dial 9-1-1 or anything and call someone who might actually be able to do something...  Just form a circle and hold hands and pray..... Nice.

  The fire chief that happened to be passing by also stopped and joined the #$&*ing prayer circle.

 

If that had been me in that wreck, they would have suddenly been praying for someone to save them from the bleeding lunatic crawling out of the wreckage.

 

Again, prayer is the least effective thing you can do and still feel good about yourself.

  


Umm...surely those people also called 911?  I have no problem and welcome people praying for me, sending good thoughts, Reiki, well-wishes, or whatever  you want to call a person's form of hoping others heal, but call for help for me and stop my bleeding if possible or drag me from my burning car if you can as well, please.

 

Surely the fire chief also called for help and administered first aid?  Please tell me yes or I will be really afraid to live here.  That is a terrifying thought.

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