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In the gospel of Luke Mary says “My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior. For He has regarded the lowly state of his maidservant; for behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed. “(Luke 1:46-49)
The Bible is telling us that Jesus is magnified in Mary's soul. As Christians our souls should also magnify our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. The example of Mary is important in the life of a Christian. Please remember that the first public miracle of Jesus was at the wedding feast at Cana. When Mary is made aware that they are out of wine she asks Jesus to help out/intercede in this situation. An important part of this story is when Mary tells the servants to "do whatever He tells you” This is reflective of Mary's relationship with any Christian. Do whatever Jesus tells you. Whether it is Jesus' words in Holy Scripture, or what Jesus says to your heart in prayer.
Mary is a model of the Christian life, so wonderfully and so beautifully. To recognize this and to have a relationship with Mary is not worshiping Mary. The prayer, “The Hail Mary" is a source of contention and sometimes argument among different denominations of Christians. This is largely due to misconceptions and mis-communication.

The beginning of this prayer is reciting the versus from the gospel of Luke.
Hail Mary full of grace, the Lord is with thee. (Luke 1:28)

Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, (Jesus). (Luke 1:42)

After reciting these gospel versus’ these words completing the prayer are “Holy Mary, mother of God pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death"

Now, one could get hung up on the "Mother of God" title, but the Catholic Church has never taught me that the title "mother of God" means Mary gave birth to God the Father. Jesus was both fully divine and fully human, so Mary is his mother with respect to the human nature of Jesus. Through out all of my years in catholic school, and in Catholic Church, never was I taught that this title of “mother of god" was to be worshiped.

One might ask, “why ask Mary to pray for you"? God directly to Jesus. Well, I do go directly to Jesus everyday. Throughout the day, and during the night. I worship Jesus Christ the King of Kings, Lord of Lords.. No one can ever take His sacred heart from me, and I place my broken heart in his hands, the hands pierced by nails to a cross for my salvation. He paid the price, no one else did. So, as I stated why pray to Mary, Is she not dead? Yes, indeed the mother of our Lord is no longer on earth. But, we can ask her to pray for us, just like we ask anyone of our friend and neighbors to pray for us.
How? Is that necromancy? Well, the Bible is a wonderful teacher. Heaven can hear us. The souls of the dead that have found mercy in God and share in His glory hear us. Heaven is not a "dead" place. At the transfiguration we see Moses and Elijah alive beside Jesus. (Mat 17:3).
Does the Bible teach not to invoke the dead? Yes. The Bible teaches against invoking the dead (Deuteronomy 18:10-12). The Catholic Church believes this is referring to the occult, soothsayers, sorcerers, spells, ghosts and spirits. This passage is not about heaven, angels and Jesus. Also, this passage occurs before Jesus had come to earth, so no one was in heaven at that time. No one who died entered heaven before Jesus.
So, praying for the saints to pray for us is about the things of heaven. Even Martin Luther (started the protestant reformation) said, “There can be no doubt that the Virgin Mary is in heaven. (Sermon, August 15, 1522)
Catholics do not think of Mary as a "dead" example of faith. They think of her as a living witness to it.

It's not about going to Mary instead of Jesus. The Holy family of Jesus is ours to join (we have free will) we are the adoptive sons and daughters of Christ. Remember the song, "we are one body, one body in Christ, and we do not stand alone....."
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Hi Bunny,

Not that I want to rain on your parade -- and I do want to say, "Welcome to the Religion Forum" -- but, I also have to address many of the issues you have presented in your post.

You tell us, "In the Gospel of Luke Mary says “My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior. For He has regarded the lowly state of his maidservant; for behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed.“ (Luke 1:46-49)

Luke 1:46-49 "And Mary said: 'My soul magnifies the Lord, And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior. For He has regarded the lowly state of His maidservant; For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed. For He who is mighty has done great things for me, And holy is His name.'"

Actually, you left off the last part of that Scripture passage which tells us, "And holy is His name" -- not holy is Mary's name.

Then you say, "The Bible is telling us that Jesus is magnified in Mary's soul. As Christians our souls should also magnify our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. The example of Mary is important in the life of a Christian."

The name of Jesus Christ is magnified by the soul of every Christian believer. What Mary sang in this praise song is what all Christian believers sing: We sing praises to Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior -- and we rejoice that God has sent us a Savior. Nothing in this passage glorifies Mary, only Jesus Christ.

Pastor David Guzik, Director of Calvary Chapel Bible College, Germany, writes in his Study Guide on Luke 1:

a. My soul magnifies the Lord: This song (often called the Magnificant, after the Latin translation of the first few words) resembles Hannah’s song in 1 Samuel 2:1-10, but it also has at least 12 other allusions to the Old Testament. This means that Mary was a woman who drank deeply of God’s Word. It was on her heart, and comes out through her song.

b. This song mainly celebrates God’s goodness, faithfulness, and power. Mary’s song shows the futility of trusting in yourself, trusting in political power, or trusting in riches. Mary’s trust has been in God, and it has been rewarded.

c. My spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior: This means Mary needed a Savior, and she knew she needed a Savior. "Mary answered the Roman Catholic dogma of the immaculate conception, which holds that from the moment of her conception Mary was by God’s grace ‘kept free from all taint of Original Sin.’ Only sinners need a Savior." (Liefeld)

What Pastor David Guzik is telling us in his quote from Liefeld is that Mary, like all mortals, had a sin nature and needed a Savior. In this respect, Mary is no different than any other mortal.

You tell us, "The example of Mary is important in the life of a Christian."

That is true. Mary's example of devout worship of God, like the example given us by Christian leaders down through the ages, from the apostles, to Martin Luther, to all the many, many devout Christians who have gone before us -- should be examples of Godly worship for us today. Mary is a good example of a devout believer. The pastor who led me to the Lord in 1987 is another whose example as a Godly man and Christian I want to emulate.

Next, you tell us, "Please remember that the first public miracle of Jesus was at the wedding feast at Cana. When Mary is made aware that they are out of wine she asks Jesus to help out -- intercede in this situation. An important part of this story is when Mary tells the servants to "do whatever He tells you” This is reflective of Mary's relationship with any Christian. Do whatever Jesus tells you. Whether it is Jesus' words in Holy Scripture, or what Jesus says to your heart in prayer."

Yes, I agree with you that the words of Mary are a good guideline for all Christian believers; but, it is reflective of the Christian's relationship with Jesus Christ -- not Mary.

The Study Guide on John Pastor David Guzik on John 2 tells us regarding the passage John 2:1-5:

c. They have no wine: Why did Mary ask Jesus to do something? Mary was no doubt earnestly anticipating Jesus’ day of demonstration, for it would be a day of vindication for her. Yet she would not force the issue, leaving the matter with Jesus.

d. Woman, what does your concern have to do with Me? Jesus refers to His mother with a term of respect, but He does not call her "mother." Jesus wanted to emphasize that there was a different relationship with her now.

e. Whatever He says to you, do it: The recorded words of Mary are few. However, it is good to pay attention to her words that are recorded, because they consistently glorify Jesus, not Mary herself. If only we would obey Mary’s direction, whatever He says to you, do it.

i. To deliberately go through Mary to get to Jesus is to regard Jesus as hardhearted, and Mary as tenderhearted. This concept "is totally alien from the Bible. It comes from mother-son ideas prevalent in pagan religions." (Dr. Donald Grey Barnhouse)

Next, you suggest, "Mary is a model of the Christian life, so wonderfully and so beautifully. To recognize this and to have a relationship with Mary is not worshiping Mary. The prayer, “The Hail Mary" is a source of contention and sometimes argument among different denominations of Christians. This is largely due to misconceptions and mis-communication.

The beginning of this prayer is reciting the versus from the Gospel of Luke. "Hail Mary full of grace, the Lord is with thee." (Luke 1:28)


First, we mortals cannot have a relationship with Mary, no more than I can currently have a relationship with my mother. They both have died and gone to heaven. They are both alive in heaven today -- but, dead to us who are still on earth.

With this first verse you quote, Luke 1:28, you are quoting from your Rosary Prayer Book, not the Bible. No doubt Mary, like all Christian believers, was full of grace -- for Jesus Christ brought us into the Dispensation of Grace -- but that is not how any of the Bible translations read. This is another subtle attempt, by innuendo, to elevate Mary above other mortals, when God does not.

Luke 1:28 (kjv), "And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women."

And, from two Roman Catholic Bible translations:

Luke 1:28 (njb), "He went in and said to her, 'Rejoice, you who enjoy God's favour! The Lord is with you.'"

The New Jerusalem Bible (NJB) is a Catholic translation of the Bible published in 1985. The New Jerusalem Bible (NJB) has become the most widely used Roman Catholic Bible outside of the United States. It has the imprimatur of Cardinal George Basil Hume.

Luke 1:28 (nab), "And coming to her, he said, 'Hail, favored one! The Lord is with you.'"

From the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops (USCCB) New American Bible (NAB).

Then, you quote, "Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb," (Jesus). (Luke 1:42)

With this verse, I have no problem -- for Mary truly was blessed among all women to be the birth mother of Jesus Christ.

Next, you revert back to your Rosary Prayer Book with, "After reciting these Gospel versus’ these words completing the prayer are “Holy Mary, mother of God pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death"

You revert back to your Rosary Prayer Book in an attempt to slip this last part in under the radar. Sorry, this is not from the Bible, nor is it Biblical in any way.

Then, you tell us, "Now, one could get hung up on the "Mother of God" title, but the Catholic Church has never taught me that the title "mother of God" means Mary gave birth to God the Father. Jesus was both fully divine and fully human, so Mary is his mother with respect to the human nature of Jesus. Through out all of my years in catholic school, and in Catholic Church, never was I taught that this title of “mother of god" was to be worshiped."

Yet, you were taught that Mary is the co-redeemer of mankind; that salvation is therefore through both Mary and Jesus Christ -- when, in the Bible, Jesus tells us He is the ONLY Way to the Father (John 14:6). He makes no mention of Mary or any other co-redeemer. And, making Mary a co-redeemer with Jesus Christ for mankind -- is a form of worship.

You say that you were not taught to worship Mary -- yet, you say she is the Mother of God. If you worship God and if He has a Mother -- I am sure that means that you will also worship her. Don't you say that by denying that Mary is the Mother of God, we are dishonoring her. If that is true, and if she were the Mother of God -- would not this be dishonoring her not to worship the Mother of the God which you worship? Can you see why there can be NO Mother of God -- for then, people would be worshiping her, just as Roman Catholics do.

You tell us, "One might ask, 'why ask Mary to pray for you'? Go directly to Jesus. Well, I do go directly to Jesus everyday. Throughout the day, and during the night. I worship Jesus Christ the King of Kings, Lord of Lords.. No one can ever take His sacred heart from me, and I place my broken heart in his hands, the hands pierced by nails to a cross for my salvation. He paid the price, no one else did. So, as I stated why pray to Mary, Is she not dead? Yes, indeed the mother of our Lord is no longer on earth. But, we can ask her to pray for us, just like we ask anyone of our friend and neighbors to pray for us."

Your friends and neighbors have not been dead for almost 2000 years. Mary has.

Assuming your mother were dead, as is my mother -- would you pray to her? Would you pray to dead aunts, uncles, grandparents? No? Why not? If they were believers and are in heaven -- they are just as alive as Mary, Joseph, or any other person. So, why can't we pray to them?

Because they are not in our spiritual realm; they cannot hear us -- they are in heaven where they are very happily worshiping God. God has wiped away all their pain, physical and emotional, and all their tears. He has elevated them to the spiritual realm where His glory shines so brightly that all thoughts of life on earth are buried with their mortal bodies. Yes, one day we will join them for a glorious reunion. But, right now, like the hamburger commercial says, "Don't bother me, I'm eating!" -- well, they would tell us, "Don't bother me, I'm worshiping!"

Jesus Christ is our ONLY Mediator between God and man -- and when He died, He ripped the veil in half -- top (heaven) to bottom (earth) which allows us to go directly into the throne room of God with our prayers. We need no middle man, or woman. We need no priest, bishop, cardinal, or pope. We can go directly to God Himself, in the name of Jesus Christ. Since His death on the cross, once we become a Christian believer and recover our spiritual connection which Adam lost -- we have a direct connection to God -- faster than any DSL or Cable connection -- a 24/7/365 direct connection right to Him. A hotline always open!

Then, you say, "How? Is that necromancy? Well, the Bible is a wonderful teacher. Heaven can hear us. The souls of the dead that have found mercy in God and share in His glory hear us. Heaven is not a "dead" place. At the transfiguration we see Moses and Elijah alive beside Jesus. (Mat 17:3).

Yes, as we are told in Matthew 17:3, and in Luke 9:30, Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus at the Transfiguration. However, you and I are not Jesus Christ -- so, I do not believe either of us will have a "transfiguration moment" such as this. Lazarus and those raised from the dead were miraculous revelations which were precursors of our Bible, i.e., since the Bible did not exist then, the people were given miracles to cause them to believe. Today, we have His full revelation in the Bible -- so, no need for such miracles.

But, other than Jesus at the Mount of Transfiguration -- show us one instance in the Bible where any mortal being who has died and gone to heaven -- has spoken or, in any way, communicated with anyone on earth.

You say, "The souls of the dead that have found mercy in God and share in His glory hear us."

Show us that anywhere in the Bible. No, we do not pray to the dead. We ask living Christian brothers and sisters to offer up intercessory prayers for us. And we use our direct connection to God or to Jesus Christ in prayer. But, other than that -- there is no Biblical evidence or proof of any prayers or communication with those in heaven.

And, you offer, "Does the Bible teach not to invoke the dead? Yes. The Bible teaches against invoking the dead (Deuteronomy 18:10-12). The Catholic Church believes this is referring to the occult, soothsayers, sorcerers, spells, ghosts and spirits. This passage is not about heaven, angels and Jesus. Also, this passage occurs before Jesus had come to earth, so no one was in heaven at that time. No one who died entered heaven before Jesus."

And, what in the Bible does the Roman Catholic church base this belief upon? Where, in the Bible, does the Roman Catholic church find a special dispensation from the act of necromancy?

Deuteronomy 18:10-12, "There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, or one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. For all who do these things are an abomination to the LORD, . . ."

Correct me if I am wrong -- but, I would say that ALL in "ALL who do these things are an abomination to the LORD" -- also includes Roman Catholics.

True, no saints were in heaven before Jesus Christ went into Hades/Paradise for three day and then led the saints to Heaven/Paradise. However, there were billions of saints waiting in Hades/Paradise and when the rich man asked Abraham to send word to his brothers still alive on earth (Luke 16:19-31) -- Abraham basically told him, "No can do!" The same applies to those who are now in Heaven/Paradise.

After all, they are in the presence of God -- no more pain, no more tears, no more worries -- only worship. Personally, I am happy that my mother cannot see the many times I mess up in this life. It would make her unhappy -- and God has already wiped away her tears -- why would He allow more? The same applies to Mary.

You tell us, "So, praying for the saints to pray for us is about the things of heaven. Even Martin Luther (started the protestant reformation) said, “ There can be no doubt that the Virgin Mary is in heaven. (Sermon, August 15, 1522) Catholics do not think of Mary as a "dead" example of faith. They think of her as a living witness to it."

We all KNOW that Mary is in heaven. There has never been any question of that. Where we differ is that the Bible tells us that Mary, like all saints, is in heaven in her spirit body and one day, at the Rapture, will receive her immortal body along with all Christian saints. Mary is not dead. No one in heaven is dead.

A couple of years ago, the wife of a pastor friend died unexpectedly. At our memorial and testimonial service for her, a friend said, "When Anita was alive. . ." and I told her, "Anita is more alive today than ever before. She is with her Lord and Savior. She is really alive now!" And, her husband, the pastor, agreed fully with that.

And so is Mary and all Christian believers who have died in Christ. Alive as never before! But, they do not hear our prayers -- for they are too busy worshiping God.

Finally, you tell us, "It's not about going to Mary instead of Jesus. The Holy family of Jesus is ours to join (we have free will) we are the adoptive sons and daughters of Christ. Remember the song, "we are one body, one body in Christ, and we do not stand alone....."

No, we are the joint heir with Jesus Christ, adoptive sons and daughters of God the Father -- as we see in Romans 8:17, "And if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him."

I am not sure which song you mean, but the thought you are expressing comes from 1 Corinthians 12:12-26 -- speaking of the unity of the body of Christ, the Christian church. And, I believe that with all my heart -- that we are all part of the body of Christ -- and that includes Mary; not as a Queen, not as a Holy Mother, not as a Co-Redeemer -- but, as a Christian saint and a sister to all believers. One day I look forward to meeting her in person.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
And so is Mary and all Christian believers who have died in Christ. Alive as never before! But, they do not hear our prayers -- for they are too busy worshiping God.


But you have said previously that they can't hear prayer because they're dead. Now it's cause they are too busy worshipping?
Where does that come from?
quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
quote:
And so is Mary and all Christian believers who have died in Christ. Alive as never before! But, they do not hear our prayers -- for they are too busy worshiping God.


But you have said previously that they can't hear prayer because they're dead. Now it's cause they are too busy worshipping?
Where does that come from?



Tob 12:12 angel presents Tobits & Sarah’s prayer to God

Rev 5:8 angel offers prayers of the holy ones to God.

Mk 9:4 Jesus seen conversing with Elijah and Moses
(We should follow Jesus’ example)

Heb 12:1 – we are surrounded by a cloud of witnesses.

Lk 16:19-30 departed rich man intercedes for brothers
quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
quote:
And so is Mary and all Christian believers who have died in Christ. Alive as never before! But, they do not hear our prayers -- for they are too busy worshiping God.

But you have said previously that they can't hear prayer because they're dead. Now it's cause they are too busy worshipping? Where does that come from?

No, VP,

I said we cannot pray to them because they are dead, i.e., they no longer live on this earth, in this spiritual realm. They are very alive in heaven -- but, we have no connection with them.

Our only connection to heaven is the direct line Jesus Christ opened for us with His death and resurrection -- straight to the Father.

We need no other lines open to His throne room, not Mary, not Joseph, not any of the saints in heaven -- only Jesus Christ.

Not being a wee bit contentious, are you?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by Bama Bunny:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
And so is Mary and all Christian believers who have died in Christ. Alive as never before! But, they do not hear our prayers -- for they are too busy worshiping God.

Tob 12:12 angel presents Tobits & Sarah’s prayer to God

Rev 5:8 angel offers prayers of the holy ones to God.

Mk 9:4 Jesus seen conversing with Elijah and Moses
(We should follow Jesus’ example)

Heb 12:1 – we are surrounded by a cloud of witnesses.

Lk 16:19-30 departed rich man intercedes for brothers

Hi Bunny,

The first reference is not from the Bible canon; but from a book of the apocrypha -- a history book, but not inspired Scripture.

In Mark 9, you are speaking of the Transfiguration of Jesus Christ. And, yes, Elijah and Moses did appear with with Him and converse with Him -- just as an angel appeared to strengthen Him in the Garden of Gethsemane and also during His forty days in the wilderness. However, you and I are not Jesus Christ.

In Hebrews 12:1 it does say that we have a great cloud of witnesses surrounding us -- but, it is referring to the many Old Testament saints in Hebrews 11 who, by faith, believed and received salvation through Jesus Christ. That is why Hebrews 11 is called the Faith Chapter.

In Luke 16, yes, the rich man, in Hades/Torment, did speak to Abraham who was also in Hades -- in the Paradise side -- and ask Abraham to intercede for his brothers who were still living. They were both in Hades and could converse. However, Abraham told him that it would do no good even if he could send a messenger to the man's brothers. But, Abraham could not send a messenger back to earth.

Bunny, the only incident of a person coming from the dead to speak to anyone is in 1 Samuel 28, when King Saul saw the camp of the Philistines who were coming to attack his army and feared defeat. Saul, who knew that consulting a medium or seer was against the will of God -- disguised himself and went to see the witch, or medium, of Endor. He asked her to call up the spirit of Samuel who had died. If you will read this passage, you will see that Saul was visited by a spirit, but many believe it was a demonic spirit -- and Saul was told that on the following day he and his son would die because of this transgression. The next day, Saul and Jonathan died in battle.

God does not want us talking to the spirits of those who have died -- and, we have no need of it. We have a direct line to Him.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by Bama Bunny:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
And so is Mary and all Christian believers who have died in Christ. Alive as never before! But, they do not hear our prayers -- for they are too busy worshiping God.

Tob 12:12 angel presents Tobits & Sarah’s prayer to God

Rev 5:8 angel offers prayers of the holy ones to God.

Mk 9:4 Jesus seen conversing with Elijah and Moses
(We should follow Jesus’ example)

Heb 12:1 – we are surrounded by a cloud of witnesses.

Lk 16:19-30 departed rich man intercedes for brothers

Hi Bunny,

The first reference is not from the Bible canon; but from a book of the apocrypha -- a history book, but not inspired Scripture.

In Mark 9, you are speaking of the Transfiguration of Jesus Christ. And, yes, Elijah and Moses did appear with with Him and converse with Him -- just as an angel appeared to strengthen Him in the Garden of Gethsemane and also during His forty days in the wilderness. However, you and I are not Jesus Christ.

In Hebrews 12:1 it does say that we have a great cloud of witnesses surrounding us -- but, it is referring to the many Old Testament saints in Hebrews 11 who, by faith, believed and received salvation through Jesus Christ. That is why Hebrews 11 is called the Faith Chapter.

In Luke 16, yes, the rich man, in Hades/Torment, did speak to Abraham who was also in Hades -- in the Paradise side -- and ask Abraham to intercede for his brothers who were still living. They were both in Hades and could converse. However, Abraham told him that it would do no good even if he could send a messenger to the man's brothers. But, Abraham could not send a messenger back to earth.

Bunny, the only incident of a person coming from the dead to speak to anyone is in 1 Samuel 28, when King Saul saw the camp of the Philistines who were coming to attack his army and feared defeat. Saul, who knew that consulting a medium or seer was against the will of God -- disguised himself and went to see the witch, or medium, of Endor. He asked her to call up the spirit of Samuel who had died. If you will read this passage, you will see that Saul was visited by a spirit, but many believe it was a demonic spirit -- and Saul was told that on the following day he and his son would die because of this transgression. The next day, Saul and Jonathan died in battle.

God does not want us talking to the spirits of those who have died -- and, we have no need of it. We have a direct line to Him.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill


Why did you skip REV 5:8? At a loss you miserable old coot?
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Originally posted by DHS-86:
Why did you skip REV 5:8? At a loss you miserable old coot?

Hi DHS,

Thank you, my Friend, for pointing out my oversight.

Revelation 5:8, "When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints."

These are the prayers of the saints on earth, we Christian believers, which have been lifted for our loved ones, friends, and ourselves. They are prayers we have lifted to God for ourselves -- or in intercession for others. And, our prayers, especially our intercessory prayers, are a sweet aroma to God the Father. Isn't that a beautiful thought -- all those billions and billions of prayers which have ascended to the throne room of God -- wafting like sweet rose petals around the throne of God.

Thank you for reminding me to add this. This is an especially beautiful aspect of our prayers.

DHS, you and I make a great evangelism team!

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Matt. 17:1-3; Mark 9:4; Luke 9:30-31 – deceased Moses and Elijah appear at the Transfiguration to converse with Jesus in the presence of Peter, James and John (these may be the two “witnesses” John refers to in Rev. 11:3). Nothing in Scripture ever suggests that God abhors or cuts off communication between the living in heaven and the living on earth. To the contrary, God encourages communication within the communion of saints. Moses and Elijah’s appearance on earth also teach us that the saints in heaven have capabilities that far surpass our limitations on earth.
quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
Matt. 17:1-3; Mark 9:4; Luke 9:30-31 – deceased Moses and Elijah appear at the Transfiguration to converse with Jesus in the presence of Peter, James and John (these may be the two “witnesses” John refers to in Rev. 11:3). Nothing in Scripture ever suggests that God abhors or cuts off communication between the living in heaven and the living on earth. To the contrary, God encourages communication within the communion of saints. Moses and Elijah’s appearance on earth also teach us that the saints in heaven have capabilities that far surpass our limitations on earth.


Vp you said it so well! You're soul is a sweet smelling flower to our Lord. Remember what Jesus said to St. Faustina, " Fear nothing I am with you"
quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
Matt. 17:1-3; Mark 9:4; Luke 9:30-31 – deceased Moses and Elijah appear at the Transfiguration to converse with Jesus in the presence of Peter, James and John (these may be the two “witnesses” John refers to in Rev. 11:3). Nothing in Scripture ever suggests that God abhors or cuts off communication between the living in heaven and the living on earth. To the contrary, God encourages communication within the communion of saints. Moses and Elijah’s appearance on earth also teach us that the saints in heaven have capabilities that far surpass our limitations on earth.

Hi VP,

If you will go back and read my previous post to Bunny -- you will find that I have answered these false suggestions.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Originally posted by Bill Gray:
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Originally posted by Bama Bunny:
Vp you said it so well! You're soul is a sweet smelling flower to our Lord. Remember what Jesus said to St. Faustina, " Fear nothing I am with you"

Hi Bunny,

Can you give us a Scriptural reference for that quote?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill


Yeah I can, but I'm watching Titans & sea hawks right now.... so you're gonna have to wait
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Originally posted by Bama Bunny:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
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Originally posted by Bama Bunny:
Vp you said it so well! You're soul is a sweet smelling flower to our Lord. Remember what Jesus said to St. Faustina, " Fear nothing I am with you"

Hi Bunny,

Can you give us a Scriptural reference for that quote?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Yeah I can, but I'm watching Titans & sea hawks right now.... so you're gonna have to wait

Hi Bunny,

Not a problem. But, in the meantime, I did a computer search of many different Bible translation -- and I find no mention of a "Faustina." I wonder where you dug him/her up. It sure does not seem to be in the Bible.

By the way, the Sea Hawks will most likely win. They have a good coach.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Originally posted by Bill Gray:
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Originally posted by Bama Bunny:
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Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by Bama Bunny:
Vp you said it so well! You're soul is a sweet smelling flower to our Lord. Remember what Jesus said to St. Faustina, " Fear nothing I am with you"

Hi Bunny,

Can you give us a Scriptural reference for that quote?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Yeah I can, but I'm watching Titans & sea hawks right now.... so you're gonna have to wait

Hi Bunny,

Not a problem. But, in the meantime, I did a computer search of many different Bible translation -- and I find no mention of a "Faustina." I wonder where you dug him/her up. It sure does not seem to be in the Bible.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill


Divine Mercy in my Soul
quote:
Originally posted by Bama Bunny:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by Bama Bunny:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by Bama Bunny:
Vp you said it so well! You're soul is a sweet smelling flower to our Lord. Remember what Jesus said to St. Faustina, " Fear nothing I am with you"

Hi Bunny,

Can you give us a Scriptural reference for that quote?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Yeah I can, but I'm watching Titans & sea hawks right now.... so you're gonna have to wait

Hi Bunny,

Not a problem. But, in the meantime, I did a computer search of many different Bible translation -- and I find no mention of a "Faustina." I wonder where you dug him/her up. It sure does not seem to be in the Bible.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Divine Mercy in my Soul

IS THAT WHERE YOU FOUND FAUSTINA?

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Miss Bunny -
Please ignore Bill.

he thinks he is the only person that has the knowledge of the true meaning of the bible.

he thinks god speaks only to him, ... hey... ya know what?

Bill thinks he is the true Pope.

so you'll just have to look over him. feel free to read his post all you like, but you'll soon learn it's a total waste of time, unless your a fan of snoopy cartoons.
"If you will go back and read my previous post to Bunny -- you will find that I have answered these false suggestions."

Yeah, thanks- not interested though. I am secure in my faith, in what I know.
I'm not in need of your answers, for I have not asked any questions of you.
Carry on...
quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
If you will go back and read my previous post to Bunny -- you will find that I have answered these false suggestions.

Yeah, thanks- not interested though. I am secure in my faith, in what I know. I'm not in need of your answers, for I have not asked any questions of you. Carry on...

Hi VP,

So, in other words -- you are saying, "Don't bother me with facts. My mind is made up!"

Not a problem. I can live with it if you can.

Hey, maybe we can all get together at the next Forum Meet & Greet! You know, have a coke, swap war stories, just have a great old time!

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by Bama Bunny:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by Bama Bunny:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by Bama Bunny:
Vp you said it so well! You're soul is a sweet smelling flower to our Lord. Remember what Jesus said to St. Faustina, " Fear nothing I am with you"

Hi Bunny,

Can you give us a Scriptural reference for that quote?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,
Bill

Yeah I can, but I'm watching Titans & sea hawks right now.... so you're gonna have to wait

Hi Bunny,

Not a problem. But, in the meantime, I did a computer search of many different Bible translation -- and I find no mention of a "Faustina." I wonder where you dug him/her up. It sure does not seem to be in the Bible.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Divine Mercy in my Soul

IS THAT WHERE YOU FOUND FAUSTINA?

BG--

Why can,t you understand how much religion is out there thats not in the bible.
Did Bunny say the Faustina stuff was in the bible? George Washington isn,t either
but he's still a real person. Can't fall back on ain't in the bible everytime.
I guess you can if you want to, carry on.
quote:
Originally posted by Gifted Child:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by Bama Bunny:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by Bama Bunny:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by Bama Bunny:
Vp you said it so well! You're soul is a sweet smelling flower to our Lord. Remember what Jesus said to St. Faustina, " Fear nothing I am with you"

Hi Bunny,

Can you give us a Scriptural reference for that quote?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,
Bill

Yeah I can, but I'm watching Titans & sea hawks right now.... so you're gonna have to wait

Hi Bunny,

Not a problem. But, in the meantime, I did a computer search of many different Bible translation -- and I find no mention of a "Faustina." I wonder where you dug him/her up. It sure does not seem to be in the Bible.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Divine Mercy in my Soul

IS THAT WHERE YOU FOUND FAUSTINA?

BG--

Why can,t you understand how much religion is out there thats not in the bible.
Did Bunny say the Faustina stuff was in the bible? George Washington isn,t either
but he's still a real person. Can't fall back on ain't in the bible everytime.
I guess you can if you want to, carry on.


If you read the posts to which you replied you would have noticed that Bill challenged Bunny to show him a verse of Scripture that supported what she said. Therefore, the "ain't in the Bible everytime" argument you tried to make is completely irrelevant. Also, you'll notice the word "Christian" in the title of this thread. As such, the Bible should be the only source for answers relating to the topic.

Having said that, a Christian should know that Mary was chosen by God to carry, give birth to, and care for Jesus until the time appointed by God to assume His ministry. After that, Mary should hold no other place of distintion in the life of a Christian.
quote:
Having said that, a Christian should know that Mary was chosen by God to carry, give birth to, and care for Jesus until the time appointed by God to assume His ministry. After that, Mary should hold no other place of distinction in the life of a Christian.


However, many hold Mary in high esteem for being chosen by God to be Jesus's mother. We each can decide how far we want to take it.
quote:
Originally posted by Gifted Child:
Why can't you understand how much religion is out there that's not in the bible. Did Bunny say the Faustina stuff was in the bible? George Washington isn't either but he's still a real person. Can't fall back on ain't in the bible every time. I guess you can if you want to, carry on.

Hi Child,

Yes, I do realize that the world is full of religions -- most can be tracked back to the Babylon Mystery Religions of the days of Nimrod and Semiramis. In the time of Noah, God destroyed mankind except for eight people because mankind had gotten so corrupt and evil. Most likely because of their pagan religions and societal norms. But, even after this cleansing -- within a few generations along came Nimrod and his Tower of Babel, i.e, the Mystery Babylon Religions.

There is an eternal difference between religions and Christianity. Religions, i.e., the building up and following of traditions, rituals, and such will gain its followers nothing; especially no eternal life with God. On the other hand, Christianity, a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, assures all who follow Christ eternal life in the presence of God. No world religion can offer that.

So, while world religions may have their millions of gods -- Christianity leads us to the only God, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob -- the Triune God of the Bible. And, only through a personal relationship with Him will anyone gain eternal life. But, through that relationship with Him -- we are promised and assured of eternal life with Him.

So, Child, what we find in the world religions is nice reading; but, that is all it gets you.

Child, you tell me, "Can't fall back on ain't in the bible every time."

I will go out on a limb and assume that you are telling me that we can't always depend upon finding what we need in the Bible. Child, if it pertains to our Christian life and to our relationship with God -- what besides God and the Bible can we fall back upon? For salvation and our Christian walk; there is NOTHING except God and His Written Word, the Bible. The Bible is His full revelation for the salvation of mankind and to guide our daily walk with Jesus Christ.

And, for all those who are already picking up stones to throw -- have at it. Folks have been throwing rocks at Christians for 2000 years with no discernible results. So, knock yourself out!

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by b50m:
quote:
Having said that, a Christian should know that Mary was chosen by God to carry, give birth to, and care for Jesus until the time appointed by God to assume His ministry. After that, Mary should hold no other place of distinction in the life of a Christian.

However, many hold Mary in high esteem for being chosen by God to be Jesus's mother. We each can decide how far we want to take it.

Hi B50,

Yes, we all hold Mary in high esteem because she was chosen as the human vessel through which the Human Nature of Jesus Christ would be born.

But, aside from that -- she is just another blessed saint in heaven.

The Bible is clear that the ONLY MEDIATOR between God and man is Jesus Christ. The Bible is clear that we pray only to God, in the name of Jesus Christ. We pray to NO ONE ELSE.

As long as we all keep Mary in her proper place of being another saint who is very blessed -- we are on the same page.

However, when anyone tries to elevate her to the level of being a Co-Redeemer with Jesus Christ -- this is putting her on the same level of divinity as God and Jesus Christ. And, that is a mockery of the Christian faith.

And, before you tell me that the Roman Catholic church does not teach that Mary is the Co-Redeemer -- you might check with your Roman Catholic sources.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Luke 1:43 - Elizabeth's use of "Mother of my Lord" (in Hebrew, Elizabeth used "Adonai" which means Lord God) is the equivalent of "Holy Mary, Mother of God" which Catholics pray in the Rosary. The formula is simple: Jesus is a divine person, and this person is God. Mary is Jesus' Mother, so Mary is the mother of God (Mary is not just the Mother of Jesus' human nature - mothers are mothers of persons, not natures).

Luke 1:44 - Mary's voice causes John the Baptist to leap for joy in Elizabeth's womb. Luke is teaching us that Mary is our powerful intercessor.

Luke 1:46 - Mary claims that her soul magnifies the Lord. This is a bold statement from a young Jewish girl from Nazareth. Her statement is a strong testimony to her uniqueness. Mary, as our Mother and intercessor, also magnifies our prayers.

Luke 1:48 - Mary prophesies that all generations shall call her blessed, as Catholics do in the "Hail Mary" prayer. What Protestant churches have existed in all generations (none), and how many of them call Mary blessed with special prayers and devotions?

Gal. 4:4 - God sent His Son, born of a woman, to redeem us. Mary is the woman with the redeemer. By calling Mary co-redemptrix, we are simply calling Mary "the woman with the redeemer." This is because "co" is from the Latin word "cum" which means "with." Therefore, "co-redemptrix" means "woman with the redeemer." Mary had a unique but subordinate role to Jesus in salvation.
Here is a well- written article that clearly (I think) defines the role of Mary as co-redemptrix.

quote:

Compiled by Martin Beckman

The following is a compilation of several articles by other authors, and discussions I have had with Protestants and Catholics on this issue. Much of the information in this compilation is copied from other authors and therefore I make no claims of authorship of this information in it's entirety.This article is intended to give a brief explanation.

�

Newsweek ran an article in it's August 25th, 1997 issue about a movement within the Catholic Church. Millions of Catholics signed and submitted a petition to Pope John Paul II in an effort to name Mary, the Mother of our Lord, as Coredemptrix, Mediatrix, and Advocate for all Christians. This would be the fifth and final Marian dogma. Members of Vox Populi Mariae Mediatrici ("The Voice of the People for Mary Mediatrix") spearheaded the effort.

Supporters include Cardinal John O'Connor of New York, the late Mother Teresa of Calcutta; the late Cardinal Luigi Ciappi, OP, papal theologian emeritus; Cardinal Jaime Sin of Manila, the Philippines; Cardinal Edouard Gagnon, president of the Pontifical Committee for International Eucharistic Congresses; over 480 bishops including 40 cardinals; prominent lay leaders and ordinary faithful from all parts of the world. Hardly a fringe group!

Here's a short description from the petition submitted to the Pope:

When the Church invokes Mary under the title, "Coredemptrix", she means that Mary uniquely participated in the redemption of the human family by Jesus Christ, Our Lord and Saviour. At the Annunciation (cf.Lk.1:38) Mary freely cooperated in giving the Second Person of the Trinity his human body which is the very instrument of redemption, as Scripture tells us: "We have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all" (Heb.10:10).

And at the foot of the cross of our Saviour (Jn.19:26), Mary's intense sufferings, united with those of her Son, as Pope John Paul II tells us, were, "also a contribution to the Redemption of us all" (Salvifici Doloris, n.25). Because of this intimate sharing in the redemption accomplished by the Lord, the Mother of the Redeemer is uniquely and rightly referred to by Pope John Paul II and the Church as the "Coredemptrix."

It is important to note that the prefix "co" in the title Coredemptrix does not mean "equal to" but rather "with", coming from the Latin word cum. The Marian title Coredemptrix never places Mary on a level of equality with her Divine Son, Jesus Christ. Rather it refers to Mary's unique human participation which is completely secondary and subordinate to the redeeming role of Jesus, who alone is true God and true Man.

Mary's role was unique. If she had said 'no' to Gabriel ... to God, would we have a Savior, would we have our true Redeemer ... our Lord .... the Messiah? Mary played a definite role in our salvation. But back to the original statement ... that role is entirely dependent and subordinate on Jesus.�

Mary is called to give her free and full consent to conceive this child. She is not merely a passive recipient of the message, but she was given an active role, and heaven awaited her free choice. It is precisely by her free consent to collaborate in God's saving plan that she becomes the Coredemptrix. The prophecy of Simeon to Mary, "and a sword will pierce through your own soul also" (Luke 2:25), affirms Mary's unique participation in the work of redemption, as it warns her that she will undergo an unspeakable pain that will pierce her soul, for the salvation of mankind. John 19:25 tells us of Jesus' Mother at the very foot of the cross, persevering with her Son in his worst hour of agony, and therein suffering the death of her Son.

Thus in her own suffering too, the Mother of the Redeemer participates in the redemptive mission of Jesus Christ.

St. Paul tells us we are to make up what is lacking in the sacrifice of Jesus (Col 1:24): "Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church,"

Paul is making a very similar statement here also. By his sufferings he is completing what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the church and us. This is a role we all can partake .... but this role is dependent on Christ and subordinate to Christ.

That is all that statement about Mary is saying. Mary had a role, a contribution in filling what was lacking in us, the Church. It's a very biblical statement.

Jesus Christ as true God and true man redeems the human family, while Mary as Coredemptrix participates with the Redeemer in his one perfect Sacrifice in a completely subordinate and dependent way. The key word here is "participation" in that which is exclusively true of Jesus Christ. The title "Coredemptrix" never puts Mary on a level of equality with our Lord; rather, it refers to Mary's unique and intimate participation with her divine Son in the work of redemption. "Coredemptrix" is a Latin word; the prefix "co" in the title, "Coredemptrix," derives from the Latin word "cum," which means "with," not "equal to." Mary's sufferings are efficacious towards the redemption of man because they are wholly rooted in the redemptive graces of Christ and are perfectly united to His redeeming will. Similarly, as Mediatrix, the Mother of Jesus does not "rival" Christ's mediation but rather participates in the one mediation of Jesus Christ. Imagine water from a reservoir reaching the people through a system of aqueducts or channels. By analogy, Jesus is the infinite "reservoir" of all grace, which is distributed to us through Mary .... as she gave birth to Jesus. Jesus, the one mediator, does not exclude secondary, subordinate mediators.

Catholics do agree wholeheartedly that Jesus is the one and only mediator between man & God. No question ... the bible teaches this ... the Catholic Church teaches this. No subordinate co-deities, no additional redeemers, no additional mediators! Clear enough?

But what about our role in bringing people to Christ, preaching the Gospel, as teachers, pointing people to Christ .... and so on? We can be mediators in that fashion. Surely you do not disagree that faith comes from (by grace) from receiving the gospel message.

This is not saying we are mediators between Jesus and God for mankind ... but we can have a subordinate & dependent role.

This isn't adding to Jesus' mediatorship, not a seperate channel, not an end-run, or anything that takes away from His role.

[/QUOTE]
Well done VP.



quote:
However, when anyone tries to elevate her to the level of being a Co-Redeemer with Jesus Christ -- this is putting her on the same level of divinity as God and Jesus Christ. And, that is a mockery of the Christian faith.


Bill, that is what you think. You can do as you please, luckily the rest of us can do as we please as well. You are positive that Christianity is the only religion, those of the Jewish or Islam faith (or any one of a hundred others) are positive theirs is the only religion.
You can try to bring understanding between all faiths or you can push them all away. If Christianity is the only correct version of a omnipotent being, then God could have easily made events to happen so that all would believe that way. He didn't. I think He is wanting us to explore and discuss. Now I do believe in God, but I believe He is also the same God to the Islam followers and the Jewish followers.
So believe how you wish, state your opinion but don't condemn or demean those who disagree.
quote:
Originally posted by Bama Bunny:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by Bama Bunny:
Vp you said it so well! You're soul is a sweet smelling flower to our Lord. Remember what Jesus said to St. Faustina, " Fear nothing I am with you"

Hi Bunny,

Can you give us a Scriptural reference for that quote?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill


Yeah I can, but I'm watching Titans & sea hawks right now.... so you're gonna have to wait



Bill,

You asked me if my quote came from the Bible.
The quote posted is exact from St. Faustina's Diary. In the Bible in different places we are told not to fear God is with us. The premise of don't fear God/Jesus is with you is from the Bible.
You didn't ask me Faustina was in the Bible, so if that's what you meant, then no, Faustina is not in the bible. She wrote a diary of her conversations with Jesus. Faustina was canonized a Saint. Her diary prompted the Divine Mercy movement and prayer.
The gist of the diary is that Jesus has so much mercy, it is inexhaustible, all we have to do is ask. We should pray for mercy, and remind ourselves of His mercy daily.

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