Hi Bunny,
Not that I want to rain on your parade -- and I do want to say, "Welcome to the Religion Forum" -- but, I also have to address many of the issues you have presented in your post.
You tell us, "In the Gospel of Luke Mary says “My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior. For He has regarded the lowly state of his maidservant; for behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed.“ (Luke 1:46-49)
Luke 1:46-49 "And Mary said: 'My soul magnifies the Lord, And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior. For He has regarded the lowly state of His maidservant; For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed. For He who is mighty has done great things for me, And holy is His name.'"
Actually, you left off the last part of that Scripture passage which tells us, "And holy is His name" -- not holy is Mary's name.
Then you say, "The Bible is telling us that Jesus is magnified in Mary's soul. As Christians our souls should also magnify our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. The example of Mary is important in the life of a Christian."
The name of Jesus Christ is magnified by the soul of every Christian believer. What Mary sang in this praise song is what all Christian believers sing: We sing praises to Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior -- and we rejoice that God has sent us a Savior. Nothing in this passage glorifies Mary, only Jesus Christ.
Pastor David Guzik, Director of Calvary Chapel Bible College, Germany, writes in his Study Guide on Luke 1:
a. My soul magnifies the Lord: This song (often called the Magnificant, after the Latin translation of the first few words) resembles Hannah’s song in 1 Samuel 2:1-10, but it also has at least 12 other allusions to the Old Testament. This means that Mary was a woman who drank deeply of God’s Word. It was on her heart, and comes out through her song.
b. This song mainly celebrates God’s goodness, faithfulness, and power. Mary’s song shows the futility of trusting in yourself, trusting in political power, or trusting in riches. Mary’s trust has been in God, and it has been rewarded.
c. My spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior: This means Mary needed a Savior, and she knew she needed a Savior. "Mary answered the Roman Catholic dogma of the immaculate conception, which holds that from the moment of her conception Mary was by God’s grace ‘kept free from all taint of Original Sin.’ Only sinners need a Savior." (Liefeld)
What Pastor David Guzik is telling us in his quote from Liefeld is that Mary, like all mortals, had a sin nature and needed a Savior. In this respect, Mary is no different than any other mortal.
You tell us, "The example of Mary is important in the life of a Christian."
That is true. Mary's example of devout worship of God, like the example given us by Christian leaders down through the ages, from the apostles, to Martin Luther, to all the many, many devout Christians who have gone before us -- should be examples of Godly worship for us today. Mary is a good example of a devout believer. The pastor who led me to the Lord in 1987 is another whose example as a Godly man and Christian I want to emulate.
Next, you tell us, "Please remember that the first public miracle of Jesus was at the wedding feast at Cana. When Mary is made aware that they are out of wine she asks Jesus to help out -- intercede in this situation. An important part of this story is when Mary tells the servants to "do whatever He tells you” This is reflective of Mary's relationship with any Christian. Do whatever Jesus tells you. Whether it is Jesus' words in Holy Scripture, or what Jesus says to your heart in prayer."
Yes, I agree with you that the words of Mary are a good guideline for all Christian believers; but, it is reflective of the Christian's relationship with Jesus Christ -- not Mary.
The Study Guide on John Pastor David Guzik on John 2 tells us regarding the passage John 2:1-5:
c. They have no wine: Why did Mary ask Jesus to do something? Mary was no doubt earnestly anticipating Jesus’ day of demonstration, for it would be a day of vindication for her. Yet she would not force the issue, leaving the matter with Jesus.
d. Woman, what does your concern have to do with Me? Jesus refers to His mother with a term of respect, but He does not call her "mother." Jesus wanted to emphasize that there was a different relationship with her now.
e. Whatever He says to you, do it: The recorded words of Mary are few. However, it is good to pay attention to her words that are recorded, because they consistently glorify Jesus, not Mary herself. If only we would obey Mary’s direction, whatever He says to you, do it.
i. To deliberately go through Mary to get to Jesus is to regard Jesus as hardhearted, and Mary as tenderhearted. This concept "is totally alien from the Bible. It comes from mother-son ideas prevalent in pagan religions." (Dr. Donald Grey Barnhouse)
Next, you suggest, "Mary is a model of the Christian life, so wonderfully and so beautifully. To recognize this and to have a relationship with Mary is not worshiping Mary. The prayer, “The Hail Mary" is a source of contention and sometimes argument among different denominations of Christians. This is largely due to misconceptions and mis-communication.
The beginning of this prayer is reciting the versus from the Gospel of Luke. "Hail Mary full of grace, the Lord is with thee." (Luke 1:28)
First, we mortals cannot have a relationship with Mary, no more than I can currently have a relationship with my mother. They both have died and gone to heaven. They are both alive in heaven today -- but, dead to us who are still on earth.
With this first verse you quote, Luke 1:28, you are quoting from your Rosary Prayer Book, not the Bible. No doubt Mary, like all Christian believers, was full of grace -- for Jesus Christ brought us into the Dispensation of Grace -- but that is not how any of the Bible translations read. This is another subtle attempt, by innuendo, to elevate Mary above other mortals, when God does not.
Luke 1:28 (kjv), "And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women."
And, from two Roman Catholic Bible translations:
Luke 1:28 (njb), "He went in and said to her, 'Rejoice, you who enjoy God's favour! The Lord is with you.'"
The New Jerusalem Bible (NJB) is a Catholic translation of the Bible published in 1985. The New Jerusalem Bible (NJB) has become the most widely used Roman Catholic Bible outside of the United States. It has the imprimatur of Cardinal George Basil Hume.
Luke 1:28 (nab), "And coming to her, he said, 'Hail, favored one! The Lord is with you.'"
From the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops (USCCB) New American Bible (NAB).
Then, you quote, "Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb," (Jesus). (Luke 1:42)
With this verse, I have no problem -- for Mary truly was blessed among all women to be the birth mother of Jesus Christ.
Next, you revert back to your Rosary Prayer Book with, "After reciting these Gospel versus’ these words completing the prayer are “Holy Mary, mother of God pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death"
You revert back to your Rosary Prayer Book in an attempt to slip this last part in under the radar. Sorry, this is not from the Bible, nor is it Biblical in any way.
Then, you tell us, "Now, one could get hung up on the "Mother of God" title, but the Catholic Church has never taught me that the title "mother of God" means Mary gave birth to God the Father. Jesus was both fully divine and fully human, so Mary is his mother with respect to the human nature of Jesus. Through out all of my years in catholic school, and in Catholic Church, never was I taught that this title of “mother of god" was to be worshiped."
Yet, you were taught that Mary is the co-redeemer of mankind; that salvation is therefore through both Mary and Jesus Christ -- when, in the Bible, Jesus tells us He is the ONLY Way to the Father (John 14:6). He makes no mention of Mary or any other co-redeemer. And, making Mary a co-redeemer with Jesus Christ for mankind -- is a form of worship.
You say that you were not taught to worship Mary -- yet, you say she is the Mother of God. If you worship God and if He has a Mother -- I am sure that means that you will also worship her. Don't you say that by denying that Mary is the Mother of God, we are dishonoring her. If that is true, and if she were the Mother of God -- would not this be dishonoring her not to worship the Mother of the God which you worship? Can you see why there can be NO Mother of God -- for then, people would be worshiping her, just as Roman Catholics do.
You tell us, "One might ask, 'why ask Mary to pray for you'? Go directly to Jesus. Well, I do go directly to Jesus everyday. Throughout the day, and during the night. I worship Jesus Christ the King of Kings, Lord of Lords.. No one can ever take His sacred heart from me, and I place my broken heart in his hands, the hands pierced by nails to a cross for my salvation. He paid the price, no one else did. So, as I stated why pray to Mary, Is she not dead? Yes, indeed the mother of our Lord is no longer on earth. But, we can ask her to pray for us, just like we ask anyone of our friend and neighbors to pray for us."
Your friends and neighbors have not been dead for almost 2000 years. Mary has.
Assuming your mother were dead, as is my mother -- would you pray to her? Would you pray to dead aunts, uncles, grandparents? No? Why not? If they were believers and are in heaven -- they are just as alive as Mary, Joseph, or any other person. So, why can't we pray to them?
Because they are not in our spiritual realm; they cannot hear us -- they are in heaven where they are very happily worshiping God. God has wiped away all their pain, physical and emotional, and all their tears. He has elevated them to the spiritual realm where His glory shines so brightly that all thoughts of life on earth are buried with their mortal bodies. Yes, one day we will join them for a glorious reunion. But, right now, like the hamburger commercial says, "Don't bother me, I'm eating!" -- well, they would tell us, "Don't bother me, I'm worshiping!"
Jesus Christ is our ONLY Mediator between God and man -- and when He died, He ripped the veil in half -- top (heaven) to bottom (earth) which allows us to go directly into the throne room of God with our prayers. We need no middle man, or woman. We need no priest, bishop, cardinal, or pope. We can go directly to God Himself, in the name of Jesus Christ. Since His death on the cross, once we become a Christian believer and recover our spiritual connection which Adam lost -- we have a direct connection to God -- faster than any DSL or Cable connection -- a 24/7/365 direct connection right to Him. A hotline always open!
Then, you say, "How? Is that necromancy? Well, the Bible is a wonderful teacher. Heaven can hear us. The souls of the dead that have found mercy in God and share in His glory hear us. Heaven is not a "dead" place. At the transfiguration we see Moses and Elijah alive beside Jesus. (Mat 17:3).
Yes, as we are told in Matthew 17:3, and in Luke 9:30, Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus at the Transfiguration. However, you and I are not Jesus Christ -- so, I do not believe either of us will have a "transfiguration moment" such as this. Lazarus and those raised from the dead were miraculous revelations which were precursors of our Bible, i.e., since the Bible did not exist then, the people were given miracles to cause them to believe. Today, we have His full revelation in the Bible -- so, no need for such miracles.
But, other than Jesus at the Mount of Transfiguration -- show us one instance in the Bible where any mortal being who has died and gone to heaven -- has spoken or, in any way, communicated with anyone on earth.
You say, "The souls of the dead that have found mercy in God and share in His glory hear us."
Show us that anywhere in the Bible. No, we do not pray to the dead. We ask living Christian brothers and sisters to offer up intercessory prayers for us. And we use our direct connection to God or to Jesus Christ in prayer. But, other than that -- there is no Biblical evidence or proof of any prayers or communication with those in heaven.
And, you offer, "Does the Bible teach not to invoke the dead? Yes. The Bible teaches against invoking the dead (Deuteronomy 18:10-12). The Catholic Church believes this is referring to the occult, soothsayers, sorcerers, spells, ghosts and spirits. This passage is not about heaven, angels and Jesus. Also, this passage occurs before Jesus had come to earth, so no one was in heaven at that time. No one who died entered heaven before Jesus."
And, what in the Bible does the Roman Catholic church base this belief upon? Where, in the Bible, does the Roman Catholic church find a special dispensation from the act of necromancy?
Deuteronomy 18:10-12, "There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, or one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. For all who do these things are an abomination to the LORD, . . ."
Correct me if I am wrong -- but, I would say that ALL in "ALL who do these things are an abomination to the LORD" -- also includes Roman Catholics.
True, no saints were in heaven before Jesus Christ went into Hades/Paradise for three day and then led the saints to Heaven/Paradise. However, there were billions of saints waiting in Hades/Paradise and when the rich man asked Abraham to send word to his brothers still alive on earth (Luke 16:19-31) -- Abraham basically told him, "No can do!" The same applies to those who are now in Heaven/Paradise.
After all, they are in the presence of God -- no more pain, no more tears, no more worries -- only worship. Personally, I am happy that my mother cannot see the many times I mess up in this life. It would make her unhappy -- and God has already wiped away her tears -- why would He allow more? The same applies to Mary.
You tell us, "So, praying for the saints to pray for us is about the things of heaven. Even Martin Luther (started the protestant reformation) said, “ There can be no doubt that the Virgin Mary is in heaven. (Sermon, August 15, 1522) Catholics do not think of Mary as a "dead" example of faith. They think of her as a living witness to it."
We all KNOW that Mary is in heaven. There has never been any question of that. Where we differ is that the Bible tells us that Mary, like all saints, is in heaven in her spirit body and one day, at the Rapture, will receive her immortal body along with all Christian saints. Mary is not dead. No one in heaven is dead.
A couple of years ago, the wife of a pastor friend died unexpectedly. At our memorial and testimonial service for her, a friend said, "When Anita was alive. . ." and I told her, "Anita is more alive today than ever before. She is with her Lord and Savior. She is really alive now!" And, her husband, the pastor, agreed fully with that.
And so is Mary and all Christian believers who have died in Christ. Alive as never before! But, they do not hear our prayers -- for they are too busy worshiping God.
Finally, you tell us, "It's not about going to Mary instead of Jesus. The Holy family of Jesus is ours to join (we have free will) we are the adoptive sons and daughters of Christ. Remember the song, "we are one body, one body in Christ, and we do not stand alone....."
No, we are the joint heir with Jesus Christ, adoptive sons and daughters of God the Father -- as we see in Romans 8:17, "And if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him."
I am not sure which song you mean, but the thought you are expressing comes from 1 Corinthians 12:12-26 -- speaking of the unity of the body of Christ, the Christian church. And, I believe that with all my heart -- that we are all part of the body of Christ -- and that includes Mary; not as a Queen, not as a Holy Mother, not as a Co-Redeemer -- but, as a Christian saint and a sister to all believers. One day I look forward to meeting her in person.
God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,
Bill