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Memos To Torture.

Maybe some of you can educate me a little bit about torture, American values, them good old moral values, the examples that America is suppose to set before the world and hopefully the other countries will follow America's example. Maybe you can explain and help me to better understand why the republican party favors torture so much.

The republican party considers themselves the moral and value party that supposedly represents the Christian values. Again, I'm confused as to how the republican party thinks. I mean, Jesus was tortured was he not? Or at least that's what I read in my Bible. But yet it seems that the Christian right seems to favor torture by voting republican. See, this is more confusing to me. I'm just wondering if all the republican party supports torture or is it just the neocons or the very far right wing extremists. I guess you could consider them extremists. So, if you republicans are for all this torture, morals, and values, what type of example should we set for America? What type of examples do you want your children to set? I'm very confused on this issue and I'm not trying to be a smart butt or anything. I would really like to have some answers. Maybe it could help me understand the way you think. Please be serious in your answers. Thank you.
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quote:
Originally posted by Nobluedog:
Memos To Torture.

Maybe some of you can educate me a little bit about torture, American values, them good old moral values, the examples that America is suppose to set before the world and hopefully the other countries will follow America's example. Maybe you can explain and help me to better understand why the republican party favors torture so much.

The republican party considers themselves the moral and value party that supposedly represents the Christian values. Again, I'm confused as to how the republican party thinks. I mean, Jesus was tortured was he not? Or at least that's what I read in my Bible. But yet it seems that the Christian right seems to favor torture by voting republican. See, this is more confusing to me. I'm just wondering if all the republican party supports torture or is it just the neocons or the very far right wing extremists. I guess you could consider them extremists. So, if you republicans are for all this torture, morals, and values, what type of example should we set for America? What type of examples do you want your children to set? I'm very confused on this issue and I'm not trying to be a smart butt or anything. I would really like to have some answers. Maybe it could help me understand the way you think. Please be serious in your answers. Thank you.


Oh Muhammed. Even though this one runs a little long, I guess I can add it to your greatest hits. Big Grin
quote:
Originally posted by Nobluedog:
quote:
Originally posted by LMM:
You start with the right wing neo con extremist talk, then say all republicans are for torture, but you want an honest answer?
Really?


You right wing people want to criticize posters and act like a smart ass rather than answer the questions. You proved my point. You can't answer the questions.


If you want to call the extra harassment we gave to cold-blooded murderous terrorists? Yeah I was for it. Anything to save innocent American lives, even yours. Unfortunately, we'll probably get to see the results of defacrats "puzzy-footing" around with the terrorists.
The only question in your leftist, socialist rant is "what kind of example should we set"?

A strong one. One that is not afraid to do the hard things required so that the United States of America can survive.

The conservatives do not "favor" torture...that's a leftist lie. Let me repeat...conservatives favoring torture is a leftist lie.

Willing to use it if necessary...yes. Favor it...no.
quote:
Originally posted by Nobluedog:
quote:
Originally posted by LMM:
You start with the right wing neo con extremist talk, then say all republicans are for torture, but you want an honest answer?
Really?


You right wing people want to criticize posters and act like a smart ass rather than answer the questions. You proved my point. You can't answer the questions.

Exactly what criticism did I use other than your own words?
If you want an honest answer (which I'm sure you don't since you're already an idiot) you begin by equating "waterboarding" and "psychological dislocation" as torture. The intent of torture is simply to inflict pain. Torture is counterproductive to the business of gathering information. Anyone who knows anything about interrogation knows you cannot rely on information you beat out of someone. People will tell you anything to make the pain stop.

"Coercive interrogation techniques" are intended to psychologically separate the terrorist from his support system, and then rebond with the interrogator.

The VietCong used real torture...beatings, starvation, murder...and never really gained any strategically important information. They gained some political points for the muzzy headed idiots on the left, but never really anything important.

If you want an honest discussion, stop using emotionally-charged words like "torture" to describe something that is quite distant from the real thing.

Of course, this response is wasted on you, since you are, in fact, incapable of rational thought.
The United States under a variety of Presidents, Democrat and Republican, have allowed the use of various types of interrogation techniques depending on the situation. Democrat, Republican, no matter what party or President past no one has compromised our countries safety and security as much as the current President and Congress.

I fear for our country's security and have no doubt that we will be attacked again, either from inside or out, and due to actions of this President and Congress I doubt that anyone would chance doing what was needed to obtain information because the current techniques are now out in the open and can be prepared for.

This decision, I fear, will be a horrible legacy for this current President as well as our current Congress.

These current decisions are not a Democrat or Republican issue but they are liberal policies run unchecked and will result in deterioration of this Nations Security.

Liberals today mistrust our own people, Conservatives, Republicans, Christians, far more than they do our Nations enemies such as Russia, China, Muslim extremist, Communist. Freedom is at risk.
quote:
Originally posted by gbrk:
The United States under a variety of Presidents, Democrat and Republican, have allowed the use of various types of interrogation techniques depending on the situation. Democrat, Republican, no matter what party or President past no one has compromised our countries safety and security as much as the current President and Congress.

I fear for our country's security and have no doubt that we will be attacked again, either from inside or out, and due to actions of this President and Congress I doubt that anyone would chance doing what was needed to obtain information because the current techniques are now out in the open and can be prepared for.

This decision, I fear, will be a horrible legacy for this current President as well as our current Congress.

These current decisions are not a Democrat or Republican issue but they are liberal policies run unchecked and will result in deterioration of this Nations Security.

Liberals today mistrust our own people, Conservatives, Republicans, Christians, far more than they do our Nations enemies such as Russia, China, Muslim extremist, Communist. Freedom is at risk.



With their bump-buddies in the media handling things, defacrats will successfully blame it on Bush.
quote:
Originally posted by zippadeedoodah:
If you want an honest answer (which I'm sure you don't since you're already an idiot) you begin by equating "waterboarding" and "psychological dislocation" as torture. The intent of torture is simply to inflict pain. Torture is counterproductive to the business of gathering information. Anyone who knows anything about interrogation knows you cannot rely on information you beat out of someone. People will tell you anything to make the pain stop.

"Coercive interrogation techniques" are intended to psychologically separate the terrorist from his support system, and then rebond with the interrogator.

The VietCong used real torture...beatings, starvation, murder...and never really gained any strategically important information. They gained some political points for the muzzy headed idiots on the left, but never really anything important.

If you want an honest discussion, stop using emotionally-charged words like "torture" to describe something that is quite distant from the real thing.

Of course, this response is wasted on you, since you are, in fact, incapable of rational thought.




GOP needs all the people they can get. The idiots that run the GOP NEED A BETTER attitude. Calling me and others NAMES in here show people how arrogant and stupid people with their nose in the air with a better than you attitude, turns people off from the GOP. You're right, I could never join your party. I would be associated with too many idiots like you with the GOP attitude.
quote:
Originally posted by Nobluedog:
quote:
Originally posted by zippadeedoodah:
If you want an honest answer (which I'm sure you don't since you're already an idiot) you begin by equating "waterboarding" and "psychological dislocation" as torture. The intent of torture is simply to inflict pain. Torture is counterproductive to the business of gathering information. Anyone who knows anything about interrogation knows you cannot rely on information you beat out of someone. People will tell you anything to make the pain stop.

"Coercive interrogation techniques" are intended to psychologically separate the terrorist from his support system, and then rebond with the interrogator.

The VietCong used real torture...beatings, starvation, murder...and never really gained any strategically important information. They gained some political points for the muzzy headed idiots on the left, but never really anything important.

If you want an honest discussion, stop using emotionally-charged words like "torture" to describe something that is quite distant from the real thing.

Of course, this response is wasted on you, since you are, in fact, incapable of rational thought.




GOP needs all the people they can get. The idiots that run the GOP NEED A BETTER attitude. Calling me and others NAMES in here show people how arrogant and stupid people with their nose in the air with a better than you attitude, turns people off from the GOP. You're right, I could never join your party. I would be associated with too many idiots like you with the GOP attitude.


Yep that's a good one! I'll add that to your list. You're still saying the same thing, just in a different way.
Noblew aka Abdullah (Slave of Allah),

You must be proud to be more fearful of your own nation and people, than the Islamists. The metamorphasis of leftists to fellow travelers of Islamists is an interesting pathology.

To call the actions depicted in the released documents torture, is to demean the fearful experiences of true torture victims.

Let the prisoners spend a few weeks with my old drill sergeants at Ft Polk in August or with similar DIs at Treasure Island. After a week, they'd be crying for their mommies, after 10 days they'd be crying for their four footed nanny goat girl friends, and after two weeks for Allah to kill them.

Noblew,

In your lifetime, what have you done to contribute to the life of the nation?
Even as President Obama acted in the name of transparency and accountabilty in releasing the Bush administration's OLC's torture memos, he made assurances that the CIA agents who used the "enhanced interrogation techniques" meticulously detailed within would not be subject to criminal prosecution. Glenn Greenwald at Salon, Jeremy Scahill on his blog, David Bromwich at Huffington Post and Ta-Nehisi Coates at the Atlantic all have good takes on why Obama's decision is wrong. I concur. However politically expedient, Obama's nearly carte blanche absolution of torture was morally wrong, and his justification of it, from a professor of constitutional law, is intellectually dishonest.

Obama's rationalizations were artfully made to the point of being obfuscatory, but they can be boiled down to three points:

1) The strategic issue of national security. "The men and women of our intelligence community serve courageously on the front lines of a dangerous world...We must protect their identities as vigilantly as they protect our security, and we must provide them with the confidence that they can do their jobs."

2) The legal-ethical issue of obedience. The CIA agents were only carrying out "their duties relying in good faith upon legal advice from the Department of Justice."

3) The political issue of national unity and progress. "This is a time for reflection, not retribution...at a time of great challenges and disturbing disunity, nothing will be gained by spending our time and energy laying blame for the past."

The easiest to dismiss of these is the issue of national security. As Bromwich points out, the matter of protecting individual CIA agent's identities is "a calculated distortion." Any agent publicly named and prosecuted for torture would, of course, be removed from duty. Their identities no longer need to be protected as a matter of national security because they would no longer be in the business of national security.

As for the question of whether or not prosecutions would undermine intelligence agents' "confidence that they can do their jobs," I agree with Obama here. Prosecutions absolutely would undermine the CIA's confidence, and that is a good thing. No public official, least of all intelligence agents who already operate under cover of secrecy, should be wholly confident of the legality and morality of their actions. To guarantee such confidence would be to guarantee absolute impunity. Indeed, this necessary lack of confidence is precisely why the OLC memos exist in the first place, because interrogators were seeking advice about the legality of certain interrogation techniques. So the question is not whether or not prosecution would undermine the CIA's confidence, but rather a) how much so? and b) from what source is their confidence derived?

This brings us to the question of obedience. Obama's argument here is gravely disturbing. He asserts, in essence, that because the OLC says it is right, it is--that CIA agents should have absolute confidence in anything and everything approved by the OLC and/or ordered by the executive branch. Besides the shades of Nixon and Bush II, there are two things wrong with this assertion. First is the sweeping authority given to the OLC to determine wholly, by interpretation and in secrecy, the legality of actions that were known then to have been violations of multiple international and national laws. If the OLC determined tomorrow that rape was an appropriate interrogation technique, should CIA agents behave with confidence that they are acting within legal and moral bounds? I have a hard time believing that Obama, or anyone in his administration, thinks so.

Then there is the matter of culpability and deference to authority. Even if every single national and international law approved of the interrogation techniques used by the CIA, would they be just? Hannah Arendt wrestles famously with a similar question in Eichmann in Jerusalem. Eichmann claimed, as a CIA agent on trial might, that he was merely doing his duty, that he "not only obeyed orders, he also obeyed the law." Arendt, of course, found Eichmann both banal in his evil and culpable. Perhaps more to the point, she argued that the culpability of countless others (what others did or might have done) did not in any way mitigate Eichmann's guilt.

The same is true in the case of torture (although needless to say on a vastly different scale and context). Of course, higher-ups who ordered and sanctioned torture should be prosecuted as well, including the authors of the OLC memos. But that does not mean that the actual interrogators should be let off the hook en masse. Whether or not CIA interrogators should have refused orders or should have known that such orders were legally or morally wrong is a matter to be determined in trial, a matter of justice. It is not a question that can be swept away by the claim that they were just doing their jobs, that they were just being obedient subjects.

Link
Lets go thru a few of the torture techniques-

*Sleep deprivation- (blewdog, that means not allowing the prisoner to get enough sleep)
High school and college kids do it all the time. And when our church has a 'lock-in', they actually engage in sleep deprivation on purpose.
*Face slapping-I've had it done to me, and I've witnessed it a lot in the movies.
*Water boarding- read about the actual technique, nobody dies or drowns. The technique of covering the face with a cloth, while strapped down, face up, and pouring water over the face, invoking the "sensation of drowning". Our soldiers go through it as part of their training, in most cases.
*Placing the prisoner in a tight, confined space and 'threatening' to administer stinging insects into that confined space.
Abu Zubaydah was placed in a small area, smaller cell than usual with an insect. He had a fear of insects. They told him it was an insect that stings, a caterpillar. It turns out it was not used. The Chicago Tribune has it. He was not put in the cell with the insect, they just talked about it. In the memos that were released, it wasn't even used.

Now, compare this to the terrorist training manuals describing their torture methods.
quote:
Originally posted by gracies old man:
Lets go thru a few of the torture techniques-

*Sleep deprivation- (blewdog, that means not allowing the prisoner to get enough sleep)
High school and college kids do it all the time. And when our church has a 'lock-in', they actually engage in sleep deprivation on purpose.
*Face slapping-I've had it done to me, and I've witnessed it a lot in the movies.
*Water boarding- read about the actual technique, nobody dies or drowns. The technique of covering the face with a cloth, while strapped down, face up, and pouring water over the face, invoking the "sensation of drowning". Our soldiers go through it as part of their training, in most cases.
*Placing the prisoner in a tight, confined space and 'threatening' to administer stinging insects into that confined space.
Abu Zubaydah was placed in a small area, smaller cell than usual with an insect. He had a fear of insects. They told him it was an insect that stings, a caterpillar. It turns out it was not used. The Chicago Tribune has it. He was not put in the cell with the insect, they just talked about it. In the memos that were released, it wasn't even used.

Now, compare this to the terrorist training manuals describing their torture methods.


Compared with Al Qaida's videoed decapatations, our methods seem pretty childish.
Letters - The Uproar Over the C.I.A. and Torture - NYTimes.com

Link



Letters
The Uproar Over the C.I.A. and Torture


Published: April 18, 2009
To the Editor:


Re “Memos Spell Out Brutal C.I.A. Mode of Interrogation” (front page, April 17) :

President Obama has decided that the C.I.A. employees involved in the torture of terrorism suspects will not be prosecuted and has justified his position by stating that “this is a time for reflection, not retribution.”

I find it hard to believe that a man as intelligent as Mr. Obama, who once taught constitutional law, would equate the pursuit of justice with retribution. It makes it appear as if his decision is one of political expediency.

If holding the C.I.A. operatives accountable for violating federal or international laws is retribution, then the prosecution of ordinary citizens for crimes is also retribution.

The president does not have the authority to be selective about who should or should not be charged with a crime, and he has made a grievous error by confusing the pursuit of justice with retribution or retaliation.

If the president reached his conclusion not to prosecute because the C.I.A. agents were merely following orders, I would remind him that that defense did not hold up at the Nuremberg trials. Those involved must be tried and held accountable regardless of the political consequences.

Seeking justice is moving forward, not backward. The whole world is watching.

Chase Webb
Gresham, Ore., April 17, 2009



To the Editor:

The overall idea put forth on Thursday by torture apologists that the C.I.A. and other government employees were only following Department of Justice legal opinions and essentially didn’t know that waterboarding and other tortures they committed were illegal and wrong is complete nonsense.

Why was torture only whispered about throughout government in hushed, embarrassed tones? Why did the F.B.I. open a “war crimes file”? Why did the news of Abu Ghraib immediately shame all Americans?

It’s true, and proved repeatedly in social psychology experiments, that otherwise good people will tend to conform to authority. It’s true that people, under such circumstances, often fail to listen to their consciences. But don’t conflate this obedience factor with not being able to appreciate the wrongfulness.

In choosing to appease powerful interests by trying to sweep this horrible wrongdoing under the rug, President Obama undoubtedly had to overcome the pangs of his own conscience.

Coleen Rowley
Apple Valley, Minn., April 17, 2009

The writer is the retired F.B.I. agent who exposed F.B.I. lapses that led to the 9/11 attacks.




To the Editor:

Expressing my personal views based solely on the public record, I believe that President Obama should not sanction impunity for high-ranking government officials who approved or facilitated the use of torture.

Although licensed legal or medical professionals who aided and abetted torture certainly should at the very least be disciplined for their role in war crimes and crimes against humanity, the principal focus of the needed criminal investigation should be on the policy-making officials and advisers at the highest levels of our government — the White House, the Departments of Justice and Defense, and the Central Intelligence Agency — who authorized or enabled such criminal conduct. This would also include many lawyers who provided legal cover for lawlessness.

Using torture is not merely an ethics violation. It is also a domestic and international crime, and Judge Baltasar Garzón in Spain should not be the only one investigating these reprehensible actions with an eye to criminal proceedings. The United States should finally put its own house in order.

John S. Koppel
New York, April 17, 2009

The writer is a career attorney (1981-present) on the appellate staff of the Justice Department’s Civil Division.
quote:
Originally posted by Nobluedog:
GOP needs all the people they can get. The idiots that run the GOP NEED A BETTER attitude. Calling me and others NAMES in here show people how arrogant and stupid people with their nose in the air with a better than you attitude, turns people off from the GOP. You're right, I could never join your party. I would be associated with too many idiots like you with the GOP attitude.


Geez, blew the dog, the GOP doesn't need YOU. We need, and want, people who are willing to sacrifice their own resources for America. You're willing to sacrifice everyone else's. And, if you consider the service I've given to this country, I AM better than you are.

I don't WANT you to join my party. I want you to stay a dumb dhimmicrat because people like you only show how idiotic and out of touch with American values the defacrats are.

Please, stay a surrendercrat. Just go sit in the corner and play with yourself. Don't pretend you know anything about how the world really is.
quote:
Originally posted by zippadeedoodah:
quote:
Originally posted by Nobluedog:
GOP needs all the people they can get. The idiots that run the GOP NEED A BETTER attitude. Calling me and others NAMES in here show people how arrogant and stupid people with their nose in the air with a better than you attitude, turns people off from the GOP. You're right, I could never join your party. I would be associated with too many idiots like you with the GOP attitude.


Geez, blew the dog, the GOP doesn't need YOU. We need, and want, people who are willing to sacrifice their own resources for America. You're willing to sacrifice everyone else's. And, if you consider the service I've given to this country, I AM better than you are.

I don't WANT you to join my party. I want you to stay a dumb dhimmicrat because people like you only show how idiotic and out of touch with American values the defacrats are.

Please, stay a surrendercrat. Just go sit in the corner and play with yourself. Don't pretend you know anything about how the world really is.




People who are willing to sacrifice? Name some of these sacrifices you made. Are you going say, you pay more taxes than anyone else? What a joke you are.
Mr. Blewdog-

You asked to be educated and stated, "You right wing people want to criticize posters and act like a smart ass rather than answer the questions. You proved my point. You can't answer the questions."

I answered your queries and you failed to respond. I AM SHOCKED!

but here they are again,

"Lets go thru a few of the torture techniques-

*Sleep deprivation- (blewdog, that means not allowing the prisoner to get enough sleep)
High school and college kids do it all the time. And when our church has a 'lock-in', they actually engage in sleep deprivation on purpose.
*Face slapping-I've had it done to me, and I've witnessed it a lot in the movies.
*Water boarding- read about the actual technique, nobody dies or drowns. The technique of covering the face with a cloth, while strapped down, face up, and pouring water over the face, invoking the "sensation of drowning". Our soldiers go through it as part of their training, in most cases.
*Placing the prisoner in a tight, confined space and 'threatening' to administer stinging insects into that confined space.
Abu Zubaydah was placed in a small area, smaller cell than usual with an insect. He had a fear of insects. They told him it was an insect that stings, a caterpillar. It turns out it was not used. The Chicago Tribune has it. He was not put in the cell with the insect, they just talked about it. In the memos that were released, it wasn't even used.

Now, compare this to the terrorist training manuals describing their torture methods."
I favor a method of yanking out the fingernails and toenails of the cold-blooded, murderous terrorists, one at a time until they tell us the who, what, and where of their next killing mission. I know that simpletons like blew, the snakester, and tuff titty would never realize or admit it's effectiveness at keeping them alive but that's ok. Even though what we've engaged in was little more than child's play, it has been very effective. If the libs want to see what torture REALLY is, maybe they should take a trip, fall into the hands of the enemy and then report back to us. Big Grin
quote:
Originally posted by Nobluedog:
quote:
Originally posted by LMM:
You start with the right wing neo con extremist talk, then say all republicans are for torture, but you want an honest answer?
Really?


You right wing people want to criticize posters and act like a smart ass rather than answer the questions. You proved my point. You can't answer the questions.



I'd like to say to Mr. Dog.I am very offended by your constant profanity and your whining when called a name,and then you turn right around and do the same.You must be very lonely there in your kindergarten class with that kind of attitude.I'll quit ranting now as it is probably getting close to nap time.

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