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quote:
Originally posted by GoFish:
quote:
apparently you didn't read what I said the first time so I thought I'd quote myself again.


Dixie,

I perfectly understand what you stated. Yes, I know that this act does not make you a criminal. Yes, I understand you believe this man should be punished. That is all beside the point.

At risk of repeating myself: This pervert likely thought himself a devout Christian and, at this very moment, most "believers" are utterly confident that this man is possessed by Satan and that the Creator of the Universe will step in on his behalf and utterly forgive him.

Dix, there is no nice way to put this: That is crazy talk. It is the very epitome of insanity.

YOU are responsible for your own behavior; Not a cave-dwelling horned creature, not a omnipotent space alien. You and you alone.


GoFish -- I agreed with you -- HE is responsible for his behavior and HE should be punished. I never save the "cave-dwelling horned creature" made him do it! He did it himself and he should be held responsible. But you continue to make out like all Christians blame Satan when something like this happens. I don't blame Satan -- free will that God has given us has allowed us to do terrible things and that is where this man has failed as a minister and as a Christian and as a man in this world. I just don't blame God or Satan for him. You are trying to continue to mock Christians because we believe in Christ and that is the ridiulus insanity that You are continuing to impose on us.
quote:
ut you continue to make out like all Christians blame Satan when something like this happens.


Dix,

The belief that the Horned One is the cause of evil is pretty much an established tenant of your religion. The "fact" that the Creator of the Universe will intercede, forgive and redeem this criminal's soul is another.

If you disagree with those tenets, then I applaud you, personally, but that is contrary to what your religion generally requires.
quote:
Originally posted by autumn1964:
Ditto Dixie. Both you and Joy agreed with GoFish that the pastor was responsible for his own actions.


The main pastor, head honcho of the mega church blamed this on the boogie man who lives under the earht, Autumn.

http://www.prestonwood.org/updates/video_pastor_20080518.php

One would naturally assume that, since he is a little closer to the issue, he has direct knowledge of Satan's acts. Joy and Dix may disagree but they are going against the flow.
I give up GoFish -- there is no reasoning with you. You believe that all Christians are as brain-washed as Charlie Manson's family and have no common sense. I'm sorry that you can't see past our RELIGION to respect us and appreciate us for who we are in and out of our faith.

You are as deadset that you know everything about all Christians as Bill Gray is about knowing about everything else.

I know we agree on more than this, but you continue to belittle and try to contradict when in fact we are trying to agree...
quote:
Originally posted by GoFish:
quote:
Originally posted by _Joy_:
. His church nor God nor Christians around the world nor the teachings of Christ were involved in this crime.

Yet the writer of this article felt compelled to go with the headline "MINISTER caught..." &


Joy,

Perhaps the writer of the article feels as I do: That the congregation and folks like you should be even more ticked off than I am over the hypocrisy amongst church leaders. They should formulate a strategy to deal with these kinds of people.

Instead, we have really nice people like you and Dix who dismiss the act saying the criminal was obviously "not really a Christian" and putting this act off on the Horned Boogie Man.

No, this guy likely thought himself a devout Christian and, at this very moment, he (and his congregation and you and Dix) are utterly confident that the Creator of the Universe will step in on his behalf and rescue him from the depths of hell.

THIS IS MADNESS!

There is barely a day that goes by that we don't read of some popular anti-gay church leader who had sex and shares crack with a gay man, preys upon children, beats his wife, or local deacons who secretly download child porn.

This incident is yet another long, sad string of incidents that strongly suggests (what we call "evidence" in scientific circles) that Christianity does not work as an effective means of dictating and enforcing morality.


First of all, this is an article about a married couples minister in some town in Texas I've never heard of by a news station I've never heard of. Well done & purpose served - to stir the pot, but lends little to the argument (IF this a correct expansion on your point) that the Holy Spirit is ineffective in the life of a believer. This is ONE fallen minister among millions. We don't hear about the ministers that live a life dedicated to Christ and His call on their lives. Good news rarely makes the front page.

Secondly, I seriously doubt that most Christians feel they have the power to dictate or enforce anything, certainly not morality. Have you looked at the state this country and it's leaders are in lately? Morality is in short supply.

Thirdly, surely you are not saying that Christians have the market cornered on hypocrisy? I see it from people of all faiths as well as those with no faith all the time.

Fourth, nobody has excused this man's actions. Everyone has the freedom to choose. You don't get a pass because Satan has been working harder on you than someone else this week. "No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it." <1 Cor 10:13>

Fifth, God frowns heavily on crimes against children. "But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea." <Matt 18:6>

Lastly, the Holy Spirit may not be evidenced in this man's life, but He is in mine. Your words nor your scientific evidence will change that. I love you, friend of mine, but that is the truth. Science is science & it's cool, but God made me whole. Science cannot explain that. Smiler
quote:
There is barely a day that goes by that we don't read of some popular anti-gay church leader who had sex and shares crack with a gay man, preys upon children, beats his wife, or local deacons who secretly download child porn.



Such the fool you are! Its a weak argument when
you have to create events to make your case.
quote:
Originally posted by GoFish:
quote:
Originally posted by autumn1964:
Ditto Dixie. Both you and Joy agreed with GoFish that the pastor was responsible for his own actions.


The main pastor, head honcho of the mega church blamed this on the boogie man who lives under the earht, Autumn.

http://www.prestonwood.org/updates/video_pastor_20080518.php

One would naturally assume that, since he is a little closer to the issue, he has direct knowledge of Satan's acts. Joy and Dix may disagree but they are going against the flow.


I realize that GoFish. However, I disagree with him. I believe in God and Satan. I also believe that while Satan may tempt people, it is ultimately the person's choice on how to act - to give in to temptation or not. We are each responsible for our own actions, no one else. The Devil never made me do anything I didn't already want to do.

I realize you are an atheist, and will probably ridicule my beliefs, but, oh well, To each their own. Smiler
This will not be appreciated by some of our local citizens, but I would point out that such shenenigans are not strange to the Shoals area. A few years ago, a former minister of the largest Baptist Church in Florence, who had moved to the Chattanooga area, was arrested there for making obscene phone calls to women. Presumably, this minister preached the "once saved, always saved," "persistence of the saints" doctrine of his Calvinist roots. Question: Was he just never saved in the first place, or did he fall from grace with his deplorable and hypocritical conduct? Or is there yet another way to reconcile this Calvinist premise with this odious and scandalous behavior?
quote:
Originally posted by beternU:
This will not be appreciated by some of our local citizens, but I would point out that such shenenigans are not strange to the Shoals area. A few years ago, a former minister of the largest Baptist Church in Florence, who had moved to the Chattanooga area, was arrested there for making obscene phone calls to women. Presumably, this minister preached the "once saved, always saved," "persistence of the saints" doctrine of his Calvinist roots. Question: Was he just never saved in the first place, or did he fall from grace with his deplorable and hypocritical conduct? Or is there yet another way to reconcile this Calvinist premise with this odious and scandalous behavior?


Name? I don't recall this happening at all. Please, do tell......
quote:
Originally posted by GoFish:
quote:
Was he just never saved in the first place, or did he fall from grace with his deplorable and hypocritical conduct? Or is there yet another way to reconcile (this) scandalous behavior?


Yup. Replace the ancient religions secular humanism.


JMHO - You can be saved, but if you sin, then you are not automatically given a "get out of jail free card". You have to repent and ask forgiveness of God. If you don't, then you have fallen from grace, back slid, or whatever you choose to call it. I don't know the mind of God, but my personal assumption is that he would still love you, but be saddened that you had separated yourself from him.
This little article got me thinking...first nothing is new in this...I have seen this happen time after time over the years...

They may be ministers but they still have the human desires that all individuals contain within....
Thus, with that said, I got to thinking about how ships have liferafts if they have taken on water, or pilots have parachutes if the engine fails.
If we could take this a little bit further, I believe we could save a lot of anquish within churches and the minister's own family by issuing them a blow up doll.
Now! being of the personality that does not like to discriminate, I, myself would not restrict the blowup doll to the opposite sex. Let the minister pick the race, color of hair, gender, height and of course style of clothing if any.
Then if the minister gets the urge to sink his ship or crash his plane...out comes the ole career saver...
A few minutes behind the do not disturb sign on his office door, and he is ready to council another family that is about to cave in on themselves because they do not have the benefit of a "Marriage Saver Doll".

I know some of you will be offended by my suggestion as I did not put in the minister should marry the doll. But, if he is already married this would be polygamy, of course unless he is of the faith that allows otherwise..
Just some thoughts from a pondering mind...
I almostnever respond in these forums altho I do read them frequenlty but this time I just had to.Several points crossed my mind.

1st: Anyone can call themselves a Christian but a true Christian is one who LIVES by the Word of God.

2nd:I see a major flaw in that a mega church and in fact almost every church that I am aware of,pays their ministers and for many it is a very good salary plus all the perks that go with it,not to mention all the adulation from the members so there is significant reason for a "Christian"man to be "called to preach".If he is charismatic enough then he will probably be very succesful.If you took away the large salaries I think you would lose the majority of these people who pretend to be a Christian.In fact I have never read anywhere in the Bible about Christ Jesus receiving large sums of money weekly or having a large home donated by his followers.

3rd:We shopuld never put out faith in a human being,only God.Even a true Christian is human and makes mistakes.Forgivness comes when a person truly stops his wrongdoing,realizes the wrong in what he did and sincerly asks for forgivness. Crying and blubbering on TV and then 30 mins later askig for money because the Lord told them to build a theme park as part of their pennance is insulting to your intelligence,unfortunatly millions fall for it.

Also being forgiven doesn't mean that a person won't have to pay for wha they did.A criminal may truly repent and ask for forgivness but that doesn't mean that they should not go to jail to pay for their crime.A person in the position that this man was in,over a large congregation, should lose that position even if he does sincerly ask for and receive forgiveness.He has proven his weakness and inability to live up to Gods Word.

These are just my thoughts and I'm sure many will disagree with me.
Last edited by granmaw1
quote:
You can be saved, but if you sin, then you are not automatically given a "get out of jail free card".


That is contrary to the overwhelming Christian consensus. I was always taught that once you are saved, you are saved.

Fundies like Bill Gray and (if you go to church around here) you preacher will vehemently disagree with you. It's fine, of course, if you wish to depart from the stringent standards of your faith but it is a departure.
I think is is awful that ANYONE is caught up in this kind of action. It does not matter if they are aethist, ministers, teachers, a bum or whatever. As a pastor's wife, I known that Minister's are held to a higher standard than other people. This really has nothing to do with religion. This very much has to do with being self centered and only caring about #1. If you truly cared about your fellow man you would not subject anyone to this. It is degrading not just to the person who gets caught but what about his wife, friends, what about the person "whom he thought was a 13 year old girl" (I'm sure he was not saying gee, I hope this is a sting and I am really NOT talking to a 13 year old) No he was not thinking about anyone but himself when he did this. The devil made me do it defense does not hold water. I firmly believe the what is down in the well, comes up in the bucket. This man has some deep seated problems which go farther than religion. As someone else has said, Christians are no more perfect than anyone else is. The Bible says we have ALL sinned and fallen short of God's glory. I know I break God's heart everyday with some of the things I do, it is not intentional but some sins are. I believe that this man willfully and knowingly engaged in actions that 1) He knew were wrong. 2) He knew would hurt other people. I think the argument that Satan attacks Minister's more often than other people is lacking. A Minister sits in a position of leadership, they are suppose to have the "Fruits of the Spirit" evident in their life. You would expect a banker to be able to balance his own checkbook right? It is very important that Ministers stay as my husband has said "Clean and Close" to God. You do know do that with religion, you do that with a personal DAILY relationship with God. I pray this man gets the help and the punishment he deserves. I pray that if there are any young people out there that he was able to pull into this perverse lifestyle, they will get the help they need. This really makes my heart sick but not just because it was a minister but also because it could have been anyone!
preech,

Nice to meet you. Please use short paragraphs, long, single spaced posts are hard to read. Thanks.

I'm not being facetious with you, but I really want to know something.

You say that preachers are held to a higher standard than anyone else. They are. Isn't the reason for this that they have some special quality, some special knowledge of god, some special sensitivity, some je ne sais quoi that gives them the authority to tell the rest of us what to do?

Someone appointed, elected, chose, drafted them to be shepherds over the flocks.

Isn't it reasonable to think that whatever/whoever gave them that authority, if it is indeed real, would also give them a special strength to resist temptation?

A couple years ago, Jesse Jackson fathered an outside baby. He was, rightly, held up as a figure of ridicule and scorn because he has spent much of his life lecturing young people about the miseries and immorality of illegitimate parenthood.

It has become apparent to almost everyone that preachers are just people. So what gives them the authority to stand up in a robe and give finely-sharpened lectures on morality and the nature of god's will?

Be careful about saying they are called by god. If god calls them, and they still do such evil things, it's a poor reflection on god. After all, the ability to be called by god implies a special means of communication between them, one I do not have. With the channels of communication open, why wouldn't god remind them not to do evil stuff? It's not like they hadn't spoken before.

DF
Many people believe that once you are "saved you are always "saved".However Christ Jesus at Matthew 24:13 says that "he who endures to the end will be saved" as does Matthew 10:22.It would be unreasonable to believe the theory f once saved always save because that would allow a person to do anything,no matter how vile or evil,and be saved.If you believe that you are going to heaven with these people,what would make things different from what is in the world now?
DF-

I am sorry my post was so long. I can see where that makes it hard to read.

I agree with you to a point. When a pastor says he is called by God to be a pastor, he should act in a manner worthy of that calling, unfortunately not all do that. God gives us free will because he wants us to obey Him because we love Him. Just like with a child, you want your child to do what is right because they love you and they know how they behave is a reflection on you, not because they fear you. I agree, I would no more want to go to church where a minister is consistently doing things that everyone knows is wrong (regardless of who else knows about it)without trying to do what is right anymore than I would want to go to a brain surgeon who consistently operated while he was drunk. My heart goes out to all the "innocent" people this man has hurt!
DF-

Sorry I did not answer one of your questions.

Pastors are "called" to churches by the church (in most cases) They are accountable to God for how they act. Yes, a church can discipline a pastor by way of firing or other things like in any other job. As I said before, God choose to allow us to make our own mistakes (free will) so that hopefully we will learn from them and go on to be better people. However, I think some of the "lessons" some people have to learn (such as in this case) are "NO BRAINERS". I also know that one thing a lot of ministers deal with is it hard to remain grounded when you have people constantly telling you how "wonderful" you are. You can begin to think you are untouchable and this is a VERY dangerous position for a pastor to allow himself to slip into. It is a very slippery slope and one you don't "jump off of" easily. Especially when you take into consideration that they are humans the same as everyone else. This is not to make an excuse for them, just a glimpse into one aspect of the ministry.
quote:
Originally posted by granmaw1:
If you believe that you are going to heaven with these people,what would make things different from what is in the world now?


Hello Gran. Welcome to the fray. Wink

I agree that the whole "once saved, always saved" think makes no sense. Still, we are taught from the pulpit that if one is "born again" then is place in heave in guaranteed. It's called "salvation." It's one of the foundations (if not THE foundation) of Christianity itself.

Jesus says, ""Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

Your contrary stance makes you almost as much of a heathen as I. Wink

Either we obtain salvation in this life or we do not. Y'all can't have it all ways.
quote:
Originally posted by granmaw1:
Many people believe that once you are "saved you are always "saved".However Christ Jesus at Matthew 24:13 says that "he who endures to the end will be saved" as does Matthew 10:22.It would be unreasonable to believe the theory f once saved always save because that would allow a person to do anything,no matter how vile or evil,and be saved.If you believe that you are going to heaven with these people,what would make things different from what is in the world now?


Welcome, granmaw...talk about a name with a positive feel. Smiler Can I have a fried pie with that? Please???? JK!

I get what you are saying, but if someone truly understands their sin & the sacrifice made for them, accepting the gift of salvation, then they will want to please God. They will also remain in a state of conviction until they repent. This was my experience anyway. There were periods of time in my life that I lived a lifestyle contrary to God's will for my life, but I was not allowed to enjoy it. I was miserable until I repented. He never left me. That is why "once saved, always saved" rings true for me...well, that and a whole lot of biblical research before making that conclusion.
quote:
When a pastor says he is called by God to be a pastor, he should act in a manner worthy of that calling, unfortunately not all do that.


Preech,

I guess my question is: Why not? Why don't they act in the manner god wants them to, if they have such special knowledge and communication with god?

I must say, if I thought I was in touch with god, I'd be dammed serious about doing what he told me is right.

For the record, I think people who talk with god are self delusional. They're fooling themselves.

DF
DF-

To answer your question about why people who claim to talk to God do not do what he wants, I don't know. I know that I fail to do what He wants of me more than I care to have to admit. All I can say is we are human and we make mistakes just like everyone else. I can't give an better reason. Because I agree with you! We need to be doing EVERYTHING he wants me to.
quote:
Originally posted by GoFish:
quote:
You can be saved, but if you sin, then you are not automatically given a "get out of jail free card".


That is contrary to the overwhelming Christian consensus. I was always taught that once you are saved, you are saved.

Fundies like Bill Gray and (if you go to church around here) you preacher will vehemently disagree with you. It's fine, of course, if you wish to depart from the stringent standards of your faith but it is a departure.


Oh REALLY? You have talked to ALL of the preachers in the area, in particular mine, and they all said the same thing? When do you find time to sleep? Big Grin

What do you know about my personal faith, other than being Christian? I believe I started my post with "JMHO" - Just my humble opinion.

Joy, I have also done things not pleasing to God. I always knew God was waiting for me to come back to him, but I chose to stay away. I don't know that I would call that "once saved always saved". More like just remembering what had been taught, and knowing he was there when I was ready to come back. "Under conviction" could be a good term for it.
Last edited by autumn1964
A quote from a friend of mine (I think he paraphrased someone else)


If there is no God and you spent all your life praying to God then you have lost nothing. If, on the other hand, you have refused to believe in God and you find out there is a God then you have lost everything! If you never believed in God and He didn't exist you came out no better!
quote:
Originally posted by autumn1964:
Oh REALLY? You have talked to ALL of the preachers in the area, in particular mine, and they all said the same thing?


Aut, I don't have to. "Salvation" is a basic, fundamental tenant of Christianity. I mean, if you are going to call your self a CHRISTian then you supposedly hold to fundemental Christian beliefs, no? Perhaps you are just a "spiritual" person and not really a Christian?

If you are a Christian, are you saying that salvation is temporary? You can be saved yet not saved?

Or perhaps you mean that the only people who are saved are the ones who say they are truly saved. These people are incapable of committing mortal sins because they are saved. Unless, of course, they commit a mortal sin thereby falling from grace and becoming unsaved again, asking for forgiveness and becoming saved again. I can imagine that kind of yo-yo would make one a little dizzy. Is there a limit to the number of times you can be saved?

New word for the day: Fractal Wrongness. I urge you to look it up.
quote:
Originally posted by autumn1964:
If there is no God and you spent all your life praying to God then you have lost nothing.


It's called Pascal's Wager.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_Wager

Tell me, what if you worship your entire life only to find that you've worshiped the wrong guy?

Doesn't it make more sense to embrace the reality that we can see and touch? Doesn't it make more sense to be good to your fellow man out of genuine generosity or is it better to be good under threat of eternal ****ation?
The next time I make fried pies I'll let you know. I have to say that the "general concensus" is not really what I am concerned with but rather what thwe Scriptures say.Popular belief isn't always right.In fact Jesus teachings were anything but popular when he was on earth.Maybe the reason the theory doesn't make sense is because it is incorrect.I have never read anywhere in the Bible that says "Once saved always saved".Please tell me where that can be found.Hebrews 10:26,27 seems to me to contradict the idea of OS,AS.
granmaw...yay! I like them in all flavors, but apricot is my favorite. Smiler

Regarding "once saved, always saved", which I've also heard called eternal security or the assurance of the believer...Since I don't believe that the Bible contradicts itself, I take all the verses on a subject (salvation in this case), line them up and form a conclusion. When I did that, my conclusion was that what God gives, he does not take away - also that if humans had the power to cease sinning, Jesus' sacrifice would not have been necessary. Some verses that convinced me of this were...By direct statement: 1 Pet 1:2-5, 2 Tim 1:12, Eph 1:13-14, Rom 11:29, Rom 8:35-39, John 10:27-29; By Implication: 1 John 2:19, John 17:12, 1 Cor 3:12-15; Method of Justification: Eph 2:8-9, Phil 3:9, Gal 5:4, Rom 3:28, Rom 4:2-3, and Gal 2:16.

There is also the evidence of my life as a believer. However, as I've said before on the forums, this evidence is good enough for me, but of course doesn't work as evidence for another because nobody can see into my heart, soul and mind but God. That's something each believer has to decide as they "work out their salvation".
Last edited by _Joy_
quote:
thats your opinion and we christians could say the same about you atheists, that your[sic] fooling yourselves and delusional.


2,

F-f-f-foooolin' myself? About what? If I deny gravity, then I'm fooling myself. If I believe in a flat earth, yeah, fooling myself. Reserving judgment on a god for whom there is NO evidence is far from fooling myself.

When one person hears voices, he's delusional. When lots of people hear voices, it's a religion.

DF
quote:
Originally posted by GoFish:
quote:
Originally posted by autumn1964:
Oh REALLY? You have talked to ALL of the preachers in the area, in particular mine, and they all said the same thing?


Aut, I don't have to. "Salvation" is a basic, fundamental tenant of Christianity. I mean, if you are going to call your self a CHRISTian then you supposedly hold to fundemental Christian beliefs, no? Perhaps you are just a "spiritual" person and not really a Christian?

If you are a Christian, are you saying that salvation is temporary? You can be saved yet not saved?

Or perhaps you mean that the only people who are saved are the ones who say they are truly saved. These people are incapable of committing mortal sins because they are saved. Unless, of course, they commit a mortal sin thereby falling from grace and becoming unsaved again, asking for forgiveness and becoming saved again. I can imagine that kind of yo-yo would make one a little dizzy. Is there a limit to the number of times you can be saved?

New word for the day: Fractal Wrongness. I urge you to look it up.


fractal wrongness
The state of being wrong at every conceivable scale of resolution. That is, from a distance, a fractally wrong person's worldview is incorrect; and furthermore, if you zoom in on any small part of that person's worldview, that part is just as wrong as the whole worldview.

Debating with a person who is fractally wrong leads to infinite regress, as every refutation you make of that person's opinions will lead to a rejoinder, full of half-truths, leaps of logic, and outright lies, that requires just as much refutation to debunk as the first one. It is as impossible to convince a fractally wrong person of anything as it is to walk around the edge of the Mandelbrot set in finite time.

If you ever get embroiled in a discussion with a fractally wrong person on the Internet--in mailing lists, newsgroups, or website forums--your best bet is to say your piece once and ignore any replies, thus saving yourself time.

Fractual Wrongness = GoFish

GoFish, thank you for giving me the term for your beliefs, as well as the appropriate way to respond.
do you know what makes mega churches? a Preacher that likes Money and Entertainment, sit through a service and see how much preaching you hear, I go to a church that is Small, why is it small? we offer no entertainment whatsoever and you see most people find the fundamental things that are done in worship Boring, but that is what the Bible teaches and I don't find it boring at all I find it uplifting
quote:
GoFish, thank you for giving me the term for your beliefs, as well as the appropriate way to respond.


Good job of looking it up, Aut!

A couple of corrections: I do not have any "belief." I have a "lack of belief" in anything supernatural. This disbelief is based on utter lack of evidence.

It would seem to me that the appropriate response would be to answer a very basic question about salvation. There are people who are "sitting on the fence" who may derive wisdom form your explanation.
Here you go, GoFish:

From the Religious Tolerance Website:

"About the permanence of salvation:
As described in the salvation overview essay, salvation is of paramount importance to all Christians who believe in heaven and hell. It determines where they will eventually spend eternity. It may also be a high priority topic for those who believe in reincarnation, or in any other form of life after death.

Various faith groups within the Christian church have taught conflicting views about whether a saved person can subsequently lose their salvation:

Some believe, with John Calvin, that "once saved, a person is always saved." As soon as one is saved, they are secure in the knowledge that they will attain heaven after death, no matter what they do during the rest of their life.
Others believe, with John Wesley, that one can be saved one day and lose one's salvation later in life, either through an improper thought or deed. Thus, a person's salvation status is not determined until they actually die.
Still others believe, with the Amish, that salvation is attained through living properly according to strict rules, and that one's salvation status is not determined until one dies.

There are passages in the Bible that support all viewpoints. There are also surviving writings from church leaders in the emerging Christian movement of the first and second centuries which discuss the permanence and impermanence of salvation.

Modern-day denominations typically interpret some biblical passages literally, and conflicting passages symbolically. That way, they can support their denominational doctrine by quoting selected passages from the Bible."


I am a member of a United Methodist church. I have never been taught that Once saved always saved. I asked my pastor "Once Saved Always Saved?", and this is his answer:
"Once Saved always saved? NO.
It is possible to accept salvation and then turn your back on God or simply walk away from Christ. If, or when, you sin, Paul said all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, then you must ask for forgiveness. To fail to ask for forgiveness is to risk you eternal soul with God. Yes God does love you but just like a parent will tell you there are consequencess for your sin, so does God. All sin has consequences even up to the point of condeming your eternal soul."

So there are some Christians who believe "once saved always saved" and some who do not. Calvinist believe you are predestined by God before you are ever born as to weither you are going to heaven or hell. They believe there is nothing you can do to change you destiny as determinded by God. Therefore they do believe once saved always saved but they believe God chooses you to be saved.

So who is right? Only God knows. Me, I'll just keep keeping on.
quote:
So who is right?


That's the question of the day, isn't it? Either you are right (and everyone else is wrong), or everyone else is right and your mortal soul is in grave danger. You seem a little nonchalant about the whole issue. Shouldn't you be extremely concerned about this?

Autumn, the only answer that satisfies the rational mind is, "None of the above."

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