Moral dilemma

Sorry, I'm not a church going Christian, but I would definitely be bothered by this if I was. Plagiarism is a sign of laziness and if you're paying this person to develop and prepare sermons, you should be upset. How the church should handle it? I don't have an answer for that. But the preacher should have done what you suggested, credit the book and quote it. There's certainly nothing wrong with that.

Hen-

I left a church about 3 years ago, where the preacher was doing the same thing, among other even more heinous deeds. Sitting in the sound booth, we would google his sermon title and low and behold, we would find the outline from another preacher, and could go point by point, following the outline as he was standing there preaching it. Never once did he credit the REAL author. This guy was and still is knocking down close to 90K a year. He would steal entire series of other minister's stuff. Stranger than that, more than 150 people left that church over the first 3 years he was there and he still has a job.
I don't know if it's the same church, but there is no excuse for that.
Oh, and I think Francis Chan is great.

JMHO...If you love him, you will hold him accountable. Pray for the ability to "speak the truth in love", love being the key word there, and go talk to him about it. Stress to him that not giving credit to the author is not only wrong, but has the potential to harm his witness and all those connected to him, including you and your church.

BTW, I loved the book "Crazy Love" by Francis Chan.

never heard of francis chan or that book..

however...

to me, it really would depend on if he did it again.

it's possible that what he wanted to say was said perfect by the lines from that book, and he knew he couldn't improve upon it, so he went with what was already written.
it's also possible he was being lazy and didn't wish to bother doing it for himself.

were this me, i might send a letter to the church saying ' hey.. i appreciate the words and thoughts that the preacher quoted form chan's book last sunday, but i thought it was tacky that he didn't give credit to the author."

and then keep an ear activly open for a repeated offense, where upon i'd call the publishers involved.

everyone makes mistakes.. everyones deserves a 2nd chance.. few people deserve a 3rd chance...

Hi all,

First, the churches are not paying the pastors to write or create sermons. The churches are paying, and some very little, the pastors to be the "spiritual leaders" of that church and congregation.

Second, there are many web sites which offer pastors who subscribe sermons and sermon outlines. Usually, this is on an honor system -- you get sermons prepared by other pastors and you submit sermons you have created for others to use. This way, they can share the resources.

Of course this does not apply to books written and published by another. The pastor should have given credit by mentioning the book and the author.

However, I don't know if anyone has taken the time to notice -- but, most pastors are pretty busy with many aspects of the job besides preparing sermons. A pastor has many responsibilities within the church family -- and preparing and giving the Sunday sermon is only a part of this responsibility.

There is a great book titled "They Cry, Too!" written by Lucille Lavender, a pastor's wife. It is an eye-opening account of the stress and pressure a pastor, and his wife, are constantly under as they minister to God's flock within their congregation.

So, my suggestion would be -- lend your pastor a helping hand, take some of the burdens from his shoulders, do some of the visitations, hand holding, and other tasks he does everyday -- to give him more time to work on his Sunday message.

Have you ever thought about helping him by doing some of the sermon research for him?

There are so many ways you can help your pastor -- instead of sitting in the pew and complaining about his source of sermon material.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Bill, the board of directors of the Stop Making Sense Foundation have voted you today's Stop Making Sense Award. It is a red letter day here. Congratulations.

quote:

Originally posted by CrustyMac:
Bill, the board of directors of the Stop Making Sense Foundation have voted you today's Stop Making Sense Award. It is a red letter day here. Congratulations.

quote:

Originally posted by Henhouse Prowler:
I am considering an issue that is a bit of a moral dilemma, or at least an ethical one, and would like some opinions from church-going Christians please.

In a nutshell, I recently listened to a sermon from a local preacher that seemed awfully familiar to me. Nothing unusual about that, as I often hear the same topics beaten to death over and over again, mostly on the subject of "Reasons Why Our Church Is More Saved Than That Other Church Down The Street" (but I digress). Anyway, this guy was using exact phrasing that I had recently read in a popular book, so I recognized the material. He did not credit the author but instead implied (not stated, just implied) that it was his own material. So I took the book and got the MP3 of the sermon from their website, and doggone if he wasn't QUOTING WORD FOR WORD from the book "Crazy Love" by Francis Chan. I mean literally word for word, while making it sound like he was just coming up with those thoughts on his own. Not one ounce of credit to the author or indication that they were someone else's words.

So what are your thoughts? Would you be upset if your preacher was plagiarizing? What if you paid him to develop and prepare sermons, and then he does this? How do you think a church should react to the knowledge that their preacher plagiarizes?

Do you think there would be a good reason not to just say "Hey I was reading this great book called Crazy Love by Francis Chan, and he made some excellent points that I'd like us to consider tonight"? Or much ado about nothing?

Call him out on it privately. If he admits what he did was wrong and offers a resolution, cool. If he denies it or act likes a butt, make sure everyone in the church knows and go somewhere else.

As far as I know; no one has a copyright on information they have assembled from the Bible.

Good grief let it go. It’s done everyday.

Bill the preacher is not hired as the spiritual leader. He is just a hired speaker. The Elders are the spiritual leaders. Not the preacher.

That is how the COC does it.

quote:

Originally posted by buffalo:
As far as I know; no one has a copyright on information they have assembled from the Bible.

Good grief let it go. It’s done everyday.

Bill the preacher is not hired as the spiritual leader. He is just a hired speaker. The Elders are the spiritual leaders. Not the preacher.

That is how the COC does it.

Hi Buffalo,

The pastor is an ELDER. But, in most churches, he is not a voting Elder -- unless he is needed to break a tie.

All Elders, including the pastor, are the spiritual leaders of the church -- the pastor the senior spiritual leader. He is called to shepherd the flock -- one does not do this simply by preaching sermons; but, by leading, spiritually.

A pastor's responsibilities include teaching, counseling, guiding, visiting, comforting, leading -- and giving sermons.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

A senior pastor?

Where did you come up with that notion?

You could be nice and tell him you enjoyed his sermon, and it was a good choice because you had really like the book when you read it. Or you could be a real christian and "out him", and you and the rest of the flock could run off to another church over a small slight. Whatever. If I was him and knew I didn't mean any more to my congregation than that I'd just tell them to shove it and I'D leave.

quote:

Originally posted by buffalo:
As far as I know; no one has a copyright on information they have assembled from the Bible.

Good grief let it go. It’s done everyday.

Bill the preacher is not hired as the spiritual leader. He is just a hired speaker. The Elders are the spiritual leaders. Not the preacher.

That is how the COC does it.

That is correct. The Bible does not require originality of preachers, just God's message of salvation for man.

I guess it adds insult to injury when the lies you're being fed are stolen.

quote:

Originally posted by Opie Cunningham:
I guess it adds insult to injury when the lies you're being fed are stolen.

ya know opie... mostly you annoy me.
it seems to me that you coem in here with no other purpose than to kick up a ruckus.. fling insults and trash talk... what we call a Troll.
that's why i've ignored everything you've ever written...

HOWEVER...

i have to admit, freely.. that one really tickled me. a real life out loud chuckle.
thanks for that

this one bothers me...it not only gives the impression these were his words,but also the false implication that he has the intellect to think on this level...

skreech,

that is the usual motivation behind plagiarism, is it not?

nsns

quote:

Originally posted by buffalo:
A senior pastor? Where did you come up with that notion?

THE BIBLE!

quote:

Originally posted by SHELDIVR:

quote:

Originally posted by buffalo:
As far as I know; no one has a copyright on information they have assembled from the Bible. Good grief let it go. It’s done everyday.

That is correct. The Bible does not require originality of preachers, just God's message of salvation for man.

The congregation requires a person of integrity, beyond reproach...specifically in the words that he speaks...God grants originality through prayer, insight, study, and knowing the needs of his flock....downloading and parroting another's words doesn't address any of the above....

quote:

Originally posted by skreechowl:
The congregation requires a person of integrity, beyond reproach...specifically in the words that he speaks...God grants originality through prayer, insight, study, and knowing the needs of his flock....downloading and parroting another's words doesn't address any of the above....

Hi Screech,

Please let me know when you find a PERFECT pastor. We may have to rename him Jesus Christ.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

quote:

Originally posted by skreechowl:
The congregation requires a person of integrity, beyond reproach...specifically in the words that he speaks...God grants originality through prayer, insight, study, and knowing the needs of his flock....downloading and parroting another's words doesn't address any of the above....

Parroting the bible doesn't count?

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:

quote:

Originally posted by CrustyMac:
Bill, the board of directors of the Stop Making Sense Foundation have voted you today's Stop Making Sense Award. It is a red letter day here. Congratulations.

>>Cutesy, insulting picture doesn't copy from original.<<

It's unfortunate that you don't know a compliment even when it does slap you in the face. What a miserable life you must lead.

The Board of Directors has forbidden me from revoking the award. So, again, congratulations.

quote:

Originally posted by Jennifer:

quote:

Originally posted by skreechowl:
The congregation requires a person of integrity, beyond reproach...specifically in the words that he speaks...God grants originality through prayer, insight, study, and knowing the needs of his flock....downloading and parroting another's words doesn't address any of the above....

Parroting the bible doesn't count?

Hi Jennifer,

Sharing the Word of God, the Bible, in ANY positive way -- COUNTS!

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

quote:

Hi Jennifer,

Sharing the Word of God, the Bible, in ANY positive way -- COUNTS!

It's hard to see it in a positive way, and after all this time I'd say it's been "done to death".

After observing the responses, I'll offer the following:

quote:

Originally posted by _Joy_:
JMHO...If you love him, you will hold him accountable. Pray for the ability to "speak the truth in love", love being the key word there, and go talk to him about it. Stress to him that not giving credit to the author is not only wrong, but has the potential to harm his witness and all those connected to him, including you and your church.

BTW, I loved the book "Crazy Love" by Francis Chan.

Excellent advice Joy. Thank you for your input.

Bill, I was not talking about what your church refers to as a "pastor". This church has pastors (they call them elders or shepherds) that they distinguish from the guy who is paid to deliver sermons (they call him "minister" or "preacher"). It seems that you 1) didn't pay attention to what I actually said and 2) tried to make this about your church when it was not. So I have clarified that this was a Church of Christ now, not a Church of Bill (j/k).

I will reiterate that he was reading word for word from a published, copyrighted book that was written by someone other than himself. He did not just pull an outline from the book and fill in material around it on his own, although even that would rightly deserve crediting the author - he read word for word while manipulating his tone of voice and body language to give the impression that he was just coming up with his comments in a moment of angst over a spiritual matter.

I believe that this issue goes to credibility. It's going to be difficult for that preacher to share comments about honesty, ethics, etc while plagiarizing without shame. At least he did that this time, and we'll see if he does it after I have a talk with him about it. Hopefully he'll take the honorable road when we are discussing it (and from this point forward).

I checked out a popular sermon hosting site, Sermon Central, for their stance on the issue. They post the following about plagiarism (http://goo.gl/gRvlF):

"Statement On Plagiarism: Plagiarism is taking the work of another and misrepresenting it as your own. SermonCentral is adamantly opposed to such misrepresentation, and reserves the right to exclude any content posted on the site which it considers, at its sole discretion, to be in this category. Furthermore, we reserve the right to freeze the account of any contributor found to be submitting such materials. Any contributor who has acquired free access to SermonCentral Pro and submitted such materials shall also lose that free access. While it is impossible for SermonCentral to monitor proper use of sermon content used in the pulpit, we ask each user to acknowledge the work of others as they use it in their preaching."

They also have an article with some good advice and guidelines here: "10 Tips For Avoiding The Pitfalls of Plagiarism"

So apparently the hosting sites take it seriously, and most of the material on the ethics of plagiarizing in sermons that I found was in line with the Sermon Central stance. I didn't find anyone (except you, Jennifer) who would defend it.

I was kind of hoping to hear from Beternu on this issue, since he's a COCer.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Hi Jennifer,

Sharing the Word of God, the Bible, in ANY positive way -- COUNTS!

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

That is classic "End Justifies The Means" thinking, and it stands in contrast to the very message of the Bible. I am seriously surprised at you, Bill.

quote:

Originally posted by Henhouse Prowler:
I am considering an issue that is a bit of a moral dilemma, or at least an ethical one, and would like some opinions from church-going Christians please.

In a nutshell, I recently listened to a sermon from a local preacher that seemed awfully familiar to me. Nothing unusual about that, as I often hear the same topics beaten to death over and over again, mostly on the subject of "Reasons Why Our Church Is More Saved Than That Other Church Down The Street" (but I digress). Anyway, this guy was using exact phrasing that I had recently read in a popular book, so I recognized the material. He did not credit the author but instead implied (not stated, just implied) that it was his own material. So I took the book and got the MP3 of the sermon from their website, and doggone if he wasn't QUOTING WORD FOR WORD from the book "Crazy Love" by Francis Chan. I mean literally word for word, while making it sound like he was just coming up with those thoughts on his own. Not one ounce of credit to the author or indication that they were someone else's words.

So what are your thoughts? Would you be upset if your preacher was plagiarizing? What if you paid him to develop and prepare sermons, and then he does this? How do you think a church should react to the knowledge that their preacher plagiarizes?

Do you think there would be a good reason not to just say "Hey I was reading this great book called Crazy Love by Francis Chan, and he made some excellent points that I'd like us to consider tonight"? Or much ado about nothing?

Henhouse, I agree with NashBama. I would just ask him about it privately, and explain that you think he should have acknowledged the thoughts came from the book. Go to him in a kind manner. After his reponse, you can decide to let it go or carry it to other members of the congregation.

Churches do not hire pastors as "paid speakers". If that were the case, some are being overpaid! LOL In my church, they are the Spiritual leader of the congregation, from leading Bible Study, to counseling, visiting the sick & shut ins, and encouraging growth in their church, just to name a few of the many many things they do.

quote:

Originally posted by canade:
Henhouse, I agree with NashBama. I would just ask him about it privately, and explain that you think he should have acknowledged the thoughts came from the book. Go to him in a kind manner. After his reponse, you can decide to let it go or carry it to other members of the congregation.

Churches do not hire pastors as "paid speakers". If that were the case, some are being overpaid! LOL In my church, they are the Spiritual leader of the congregation, from leading Bible Study, to counseling, visiting the sick & shut ins, and encouraging growth in their church, just to name a few of the many many things they do.

Bill, I'm surprised at your take on this too. As a spiritual leader, don't you think that the clearly unethical behavior of this man conflicts with his position AS spiritual leader? It is a form of theft after all. Theft of intellectual property is just as serious as theft of physical property. When God said, "Thou shalt not steal", I'm sure He meant we shouldn't steal ANYTHING.

Of course I would take the high road and talk to him privately. One lapse doesn't erase all of the good that he may have done. But it is a serious breach and should be dealt with. If the man truly IS a Godly person, he will apologise to the congregation, explain where he got the WORD FOR WORD sermon, and beg their (and God's) forgivness.

"When 'omer smote 'is bloomin lyre,
He'd heard men sing by land and sea,
And what 'e thought 'e might require,
'E went and took, the same as me."

R. Kipling

quote:

Originally posted by O No!:
Bill, I'm surprised at your take on this too. As a spiritual leader, don't you think that the clearly unethical behavior of this man conflicts with his position AS spiritual leader? It is a form of theft after all. Theft of intellectual property is just as serious as theft of physical property. When God said, "Thou shalt not steal," -- I'm sure He meant we shouldn't steal ANYTHING.

Of course I would take the high road and talk to him privately. One lapse doesn't erase all of the good that he may have done. But it is a serious breach and should be dealt with. If the man truly IS a Godly person, he will apologize to the congregation, explain where he got the WORD FOR WORD sermon, and beg their (and God's) forgivness.

Hi O,

Do I give him a "Get Out Of Jail Free" card? No. But, as you mentioned, if this is a one-time lapse -- we just have to keep in mind that pastors are human, too.

A few years ago, a Calvary Chapel pastor in Southern California, in his Sunday message, was discussing Jesus' meeting with the Woman of Samaria. I know the story pretty well. And, when the pastor began to embellish it with his own speculations about what occurred in that meeting -- I was waiting for him to tell us that he was embellishing or paraphrasing the story.

He never did. And, my immediate thought was that he could be misleading people who are not yet mature in their knowledge of the Bible.

What the pastor was doing was adding "flesh" to the story to make it more interesting. However, much of the "flesh" he was adding came from what he "imagined" transpired that day -- not what the Bible tells us.

I will be the first to admit that, most likely, not all of the conversation between Jesus and the woman, and not all their actions, are written in the Bible -- only what is pertinent to the lesson being taught. And, wanting to make his sermon more interesting -- the pastor took liberties which would have been fine -- IF he had told us this was what he was doing. He did not -- and that bothered me.

So, I can draw an analogy between what the Calvary Chapel pastor did in that one sermon message -- with what the pastor in this dialogue did by quoting from a book and not giving proper credit. Yet, once again, if this is a one-time lapse -- let's give him a break. If this is an habitual thing -- someone needs to bring this to his attention.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Yes, pastors are human, too, and my pastor would hold me accountable if he heard me plagiarizing...not to be all high and mighty, but because he loves me enough to do what is uncomfortable. It's easy to confront others in a forum setting. Face to face is much harder and should always be done in a loving manner.

Francis Chan's book is a best seller...I doubt HP is the only one who noticed.

To ignore a problem or sweep it under the rug is to love yourself more than the person who needs you to tell them the truth in love.

I hate confrontations, hate them, but have felt forced into them before. I usually start with humbling myself and confessing a past mistake as well as the cost of my mistake...THEN I talk to the person about my concern for them.

quote:

Originally posted by beternU:
"When 'omer smote 'is bloomin lyre,
He'd heard men sing by land and sea,
And what 'e thought 'e might require,
'E went and took, the same as me."

R. Kipling

You're gonna have to bring that down to my level there, Betern.

But I did notice that you credited the author. Nice touch!

quote:

Originally posted by Opie Cunningham:
I guess it adds insult to injury when the lies you're being fed are stolen.

It should be the common goal that all speak the same message from the Bible.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:

quote:

Originally posted by skreechowl:
The congregation requires a person of integrity, beyond reproach...specifically in the words that he speaks...God grants originality through prayer, insight, study, and knowing the needs of his flock....downloading and parroting another's words doesn't address any of the above....

Hi Screech,

Please let me know when you find a PERFECT pastor. We may have to rename him Jesus Christ.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Bill, that is why the Bible teaches a plurality of elders. One pastor/preacher as the 'spiritual leader', as he is referred to in all but the COC, is a recipe for disaster.

quote:

Originally posted by _Joy_:
Yes, pastors are human, too, and my pastor would hold me accountable if he heard me plagiarizing...not to be all high and mighty, but because he loves me enough to do what is uncomfortable. It's easy to confront others in a forum setting. Face to face is much harder and should always be done in a loving manner.

Francis Chan's book is a best seller...I doubt HP is the only one who noticed.

To ignore a problem or sweep it under the rug is to love yourself more than the person who needs you to tell them the truth in love.

I hate confrontations, hate them, but have felt forced into them before. I usually start with humbling myself and confessing a past mistake as well as the cost of my mistake...THEN I talk to the person about my concern for them.

Joy my dear,
How does one plagiarize what is taught from the Bible? You are putting too much confidence in one man, your pastor/preacher. arecipe for disaster.

buff, I take it you missed part of the conversation. He plagiarized Frances Chan, not the Bible. How exactly am I putting too much confidence in my pastor?

WHAT? You people PAY church leaders to tell you the things. (CORRECTION FOR JOY) $90,000.00 a year??? Boy, Satan saw you guys comming!!! In the Bible you use That was called accepting filthy lucre to do the Lords work!!! That was called a big NO NO!!!! So how do you justify going against Jesus teachings in this thing?? Lets see, A worker is worth his hire??? There is a parable in the Bible about the uselessness of a Hireling. Man, some of you will BELIEVE anything! The practice of paying a preacher and giving them stuff to preach to you is called PRIESTCRAFT, this is an abomination to the Lord no matter how you attempt to justify it by twisting the words of the Bible!!!! The Lords work is to be done for FREE and there is only one church on this earth that followes that. The Preacher and all the other leaders in this church have regular jobs AND do the Lords work FREE. The Chorister,FREE, the Preacher, FREE, all the Elders, FREE, the libriarian, FREE, the clearks and secretaries, FREE, the sunday school president, FREE, the councelors, FREE, the church cleaners, FREE, the ladies organization leaders, FREE, the childrens teachers, FREE, all as we are taught in the BIBLE. If this one church that is WORLD WIDE can do it for FREE all over the world, why cant others???? OR why WONT others???? $$$$$$$$$$ thats why! So a big question to ask when looking for another church is, DO THEY FOLLOW THE BIBLES TEACHINGS AND DO ALL THE LORDS WORK FOR FREE> The only WORLD WIDE organization that does this is the Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter Day Saints. see my Blog at http://cherokeesrealcobra.blogspot.com Read post 21 and 68. also click on the title of post 78 to go to the OFFICIAL CHURCH SITE.