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Below is an interesting exchange of ideas on the new budget proposed by the White House that took place in the Senate:

http://www.opednews.com/articles/1/genera_ed_tubbs_0802...nate_hearing_exc.htm

Remark 3: The president’s budget effectively would cut veterans VA medical benefits by requiring most current recipients to pay an up front fee for medical services.

Senator Sanders: Thank you very much Mr. Chairman, Jim . . . I strongly concur with Senator Conrad’s (D-ND) comments about what a disastrous budget this is, and the very negative impact that it will have on the future of this country and our kids, and our grandchildren. But I want to take this discussion a little bit away from the issue of the national debt, as important as that is, and the deficit. I want to talk about this budget means to ordinary human beings, and to try to understand the moral values that have been placed in this budget, or I should perhaps say the lack of moral values. Ah, Senator Bunning (R-KY) a moment ago talked about tax burdens in this, ah, country.


Ah, but let me talk about, ah, who pays the taxes, who earns the money in this country. Mr. Director, as I’m sure you’re aware, the United States has by far the most unequal distribution of wealth, income and wealth, of any major country on earth, and increasingly we’re looking more like Brazil and Mexico than we are like Europe and Scandinavia, and other industrialized, ah, countries. When Senator Conrad talks about legacy, for this president, what we should be aware of, since President Bush has been in office, five million more people have slipped into poverty, the middle-class has shrunk, the median-family income has declined by over a thousand dollars, eight million Americans have lost their health insurance, three million Americans have lost their pensions, and yes! some people have done very well. And those are the people on top (right arm points into the air). And of all of the statistics that we throw out around here, I want to throw out one statistic that I want to get your comment on.

Director Nussel, according to the latest reports from the IRS, the wealthiest 1/10th of 1 percent, one-tenth of one percent, three hundred thousand men, women and children, now earn more income than do the bottom 150 million Americans! One-tenth of one percent, more income than 50 percent of the American people, and that gap is growing wider. What is your sense about what it means to the future of this country, and economic justice that we have such an unequal distribution of income and wealth?

Director Nussel: Well, first of all, ah Mr. San . . ., ah Senator Sanders, I, ah, ah, I have not thought about that question. I will, I will . . .

Senator Sanders: Don’t you think it’s a question that you should think about?

Director Nussel: I will give it some thought. Ah, I have given some thought to, ah, tax distribution, and tax reform, and, ah, I would agree with you that, ah, our tax code, ah, needs to be reformed. And there are, ah, there are, ah, problems within our tax code that, ah, that, ah, need to be rooted out, and that we have the top 1 percent of the tax code, of the people paying taxes in this country pay 40 percent of all the taxes. The top 5 percent pay 59 percent . . .

Senator Sanders: But you’ve given me an example of the facts that the wealthiest one-tenth of one percent earn more income than do the bottom 50 percent.

Director Nussel: They also pay taxes.

Senator Sanders: Of course they pay taxes, but not proportionate to what they earn.



Let me ask you another question, a moral question. Let’s forget about being in the United States Senate, let’s get down to basic morality. In your budget (pointing his right index finger at Director Nussel), you propose over 700 billion dollars in tax breaks for the wealthiest three-tenths of one-percent; 700 billion dollars in tax breaks for millionaires and billionaires at the same time as you want to eliminate, among other programs, the low-income weatherization assistance program, as you want to make massive cuts in the (indistinct, sounded like Lydie) program, which you are very familiar with. Well, in Vermont, and all over this country, Iowa, I dare say (NOTE: Nussel, prior to appointment as Ch of OMB, had been a GOP Representative in the House), it is getting cold. Older people cannot afford to keep their homes warm. What is the moral justification for giving over 700 billion dollars in tax breaks to millionaires and billionaires, and then cut back on programs which keep people warm, which provide health care for desperate people, and which provide many other basic necessities? Give me the moral justification for that.

Director Nussel: The, ah, tax, ah, cuts the president proposed in 2001 and 2002 and 2003 are distribute much further than the top one-tenth of one percent.


Senator Sanders: But I’ve given you an example of how it impacts the top one-three-tenths of one-percent; seven hundred billion dollars. Tell me why the richest people in this country need tax breaks while poverty is increasing.

Director Nussel: Look, ah, look, I would guess under that, that you received a tax cut.

Senator Sanders: I may have. But I’m talking about millionaires and billionaires. And I don’t need a tax break. You don’t need a tax break. Tell me, why should the richest people . . .

Director Nussel: Why don’t I need a tax break?

Senator Sanders: Because you’re doing well and other people are going hungry in America. And people, the middle-class is shrinking.

Director Nussel: So it’s my responsibility . . .

Senator Sanders: (Indistinct) I’m not talking about you, I’m talking about millionaires and billionaires . . .

Director Nussel: Then take anyone, take . . .

Senator Sanders: For example, you want to repeal the Estate Tax. Is that correct?

Director Nussel: (Nods head up and down)

Senator Sanders: All the benefits of the Estate Tax go to the richest three-tenths of one-percent. If the Estate Tax is completely repealed, the Walton family, which is worth 80 billion dollars, which owns Wal-Mart, will get over 30 billion dollars in tax relief. Do you think the Walton family needs 30 billion dollars in tax relief, when you’re cutting back on healthcare, when you’re cutting back on programs that feed hungry people; hungry senior citizens? Let me hear the moral, your administration talks a lot about morality, and family values. Now tell me about the morality of giving tax breaks to the Walton family, worth 80 billion dollars, and cutting back on the needs of the most desperate. Look! As far as that, . . . justification for raising the fees of our veterans who are getting into the VA hospital, that will drive veterans off of the VA.

Director Nussel: Well, these are the, ah, these are the, ah, veterans who, ah, have incomes that are higher than . . .

Senator Sanders: Yuh, twenty-seven thousand dollars a year. You know, what I want to hear is a simple, man to man, man to man . . . You tell me about tax breaks for billionaires and cutting back on the needs of veterans and low income people.

Director Nussel: First of all, I don’t what the tax bill is for the Walton family. I don’t know how much they pay.
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Yes of course one can agree with a diatribe like this if they embrace socialism which is what you are talking about. Look at the top earners and see what they pay. Don't tell me that it is fair to punish those who do make more by making them pay an increasingly higher tax bracket than others. This is pure and simple nothing but a redistribution of wealth. The reason there has been an increasing number of peoples entering the lower socioeconomic scale is not only the burden of the wealthy. It also bears some responsibility of those in that dilemma. Look at a large number of them as see how many have actually looked for a job in the past year? holding out for upper management? refuse to do the work that illegals are doing in this country on a daily basis because we cannot get people to do the simple task that require us to function as a society. How many are on disability for things that some in this country work with everyday, but do so without complaining. It is funny when you look at the basis for declaring the "upper class" and rich, it is always just higher than the highest paid Senator and Legislator in current service, of course all of their pandering and lobbying monies never get counted anyways. Always funny to me as well how John Edwards, the man of the people, lives in a 26000 square foot house, living off of the millions he made suing Obstetricians who could work everyday for their lifetime and never make the money he made, and yet he supposedly worked his way around paying Medicare taxes. I wish I had his CPA.
In any case PB, if you love the fact that some should work and be penalized for success, why don't you take you socialist theories and use them for a better purpose like somewhere in Venezuala. I am sure Chavez would be glad to set you up there and take care of you for the remainder of your days.
This talk about giving tax breaks to the rich is a crock of crap, pure and simple, they do pay more. According to the tax records, 10% of the population of the US pays 85% of the taxes which support the government.
The estate tax is a sham, and should be abolished. Why should everything a man works for and builds in his life not be allowed to be left to his children and wife for their benefit? Especially since it has already been taxed (land taxes, etc).
I heard a somment by a British politician not long ago when he was asked about America, and he said you can tell a country's greatness by the fact that there is always people willing to do anything to get into a country, where in others they are trying to get out. I don't see a fence around this great land of ours to keep people in. There are plenty of places all around the planet where people cannot enjoy the liberties we have here.
If the Walton family received 30 billion dollars in tax relief they may be inclined to pass it on as better wages and lower priced health insurance for the folks who work at their Wal-Mart stores. Money for those things (raises, benefits) does not just magically appear in employers pockets.

The "rich" such as the Waltons, the "big corporations", and such are the very ones who keep America employed and running. If we continue to screw them over through higher taxes and unjustly painting them as villains everywhere from the press to the senate floor... they may just pack up and leave. Many of them already have - and who can blame them?
quote:
Mr. Director, as I’m sure you’re aware, the United States has by far the most unequal distribution of wealth, income and wealth


Wealth should not be distributed, it should be earned. If it is earned, it should be kept without the government stealing it and giving it to someone who did not earn. That article reeks of socialism.
I'm so glad I moved from North Alabama....The very people who can't afford insurance, a decent education system, GAS!, and mortgages always whole-heartedly, devoutly, and blindly follow the rich. All while they laugh and go deposit a couple of million more in the bank.

I seroiusly doubt Wal-Mart and the Walton family, if given tax breaks, would provide "better" benefits for employees as we have already seen in the past the attitude Wal-Mart has of their workers.

I hope that 2008 will be a year of change and I can't wait until our "Amazingly Genius" President is gone. No matter what the outcome of the election, at least I can sleep peacefully knowing Bush can never run again....
And hopefully while I am sleeping thousands of our brave soldiers will be sleeping safe at home with their families. Ready to PROTECT, not invade....

The only thing I remember from growing up in North Alabama are churches, cemetaries, and football fields. My high school couldn't even "afford" to hire a higher level Calculus teacher for my Senior class so I didn't get the opportunity to even take it. But I'll be *amned if we didn't get a multi-million dollar football stadium. We have several "mega" churches in town, but none of them feed the sick and homeless. They are considered dirty and gross. (Eww!) Maybe that's fine for some folks, but not for me. So glad to be gone. Good riddance!

I can't say I am socialist, but I am at least open to change. It is never a bad thing to try something new.
well, maybe you could have gone to UNA for free your senior year in Alabama's dual enrollment program. Maybe you can earn a million a year and then pay $500,000 for someone else to waste. Did you ask everyone in Russellville if they ever fed the hungry or helped the sick. I know someone from there who has and yo no vivo en Russellvilla. I am so glad you have left to go elsewhere I hope you find what makes you happy there. I, however, can afford insurance, my kids get a quality education, I can easily pay my mortgage, and I can do all this while living in North Alabama. I am sorry you hate football but the football budget and the number of teaching units per school are not connected. Maybe you will figure out that all rich people are not really sitting in a room trying to figure out how to control you and keep you down.
Yeah and for your information here is where a majority of the money being paid to taxes is going, not to the war in Iraq, but to the countless bloated government programs which we have created. For your information I too pay my insurance, and attend a chruch, and do my part to help the needy. I do not think they are disgusting, and I thank God for giving me the will and the way to help them. What I despise is someone who wants to tell me they are going to take my hard earned money and decide for me how it should be distributed. BTW I do not think GW is a brain trust either, but I shdder to think what would have happened in the past few years had we not taken a stronger stance on terrorism. The last time I checked it was not the Baptists, Catholics, Methodists, Presbyterians, nor Church of Crhists that were strapping themselves with explosives and blowing up their own people who have asked for nothing more than a chance to experience a little freedom....

I provided the links for you to look it up if you doubt the facts presented here.

1. $11 Billion to $22 billion is spent on welfare to illegal aliens each year. http://tinyurl.com/zob77

2. $2.2 Billion dollars a year is spent on food assistance programs such as food stamps, WIC, and free school lunches for illegal aliens. http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html

3. $2.5 Billion dollars a year is spent on Medicaid for illegal aliens. http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html

4. $12 Billion dollars a year is spent on primary and secondary school education for children here illegally and they cannot speak a word of English! http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.0.html

5. $17 Billion dollars a year is spent for education for the American-born children of illegal aliens, known as anchor babies. http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html

6. $3 Million Dollars a DAY is spent to incarcerate illegal aliens. http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html

7. 30% percent of all Federal Prison inmates are illegal aliens. http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html

8. $90 Billion Dollars a year is spent on illegal aliens for Welfare and Social Services by the American taxpayers. http://premium.cnn.co m/TRANSCIPTS/0610/29/ldt.01.html

9. $200 Billion Dollars a year in suppressed American wages are caused by the illegal aliens. http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html

10. The illegal aliens in the United States have a crime rate that's two-and-a-half times that of white non-illegal aliens. In particular, their children, are going to make a huge additional crime problem in the US . http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0606/12/ldt.01.html

11. During the year of 2005 there were 4 to 10 MILLION illegal aliens that crossed our Southern Border also, as many as 19,500 illegal aliens from Terrorist Countries. Millions of pounds of drugs, cocaine, meth, heroin and marijuana, crossed into the U. S from the Southern border. Homeland Security Report. http://tinyurl.com/t9sht

12. The Nationa Policy Institute, "estimated that the total cost of mass deportation would be between $206 and $230 billion or an average cost of between $41 and $46 billion annually over a five year period." http://www.nationalpolicyinstitute.org/pdf/deportation.pdf

13. In 2006 illegal aliens sent home $45 BILLION in remittances back to their countries of origin. http://www.rense.com/general75/niht.htm

14. "The Dark Side of Illegal Immigration: Nearly One Million Sex Crimes Committed by Illegal Immigrants In The United States ". http://www.drdsk.com/articleshtml

Total cost is a whooping... $338.3 BILLION A YEAR!!!

If this doesn't bother you then just delete the message, but on the other hand, if it does raise the hair on the back of your neck, then forward it.

Snopes is provided for doubters:

http://www.snopes.com/politics/immigration/bankofamerica.asp

Social Security Change For 2008

The United States Senate voted to extend Social Security Benefits to Illegal Aliens beginning in 2008. The following are the senators who voted to give illegal aliens Social Security benefits. They are grouped by home state. If a state is not listed, there w as no voting representative.

Alaska! : Stevens (R)

Arizona : McCain (R) .......Yes, he is there!!!

Arkansas : Lincoln (D) Pryor (D)

California : Boxer (D) Feinstein (D)

Colorado : Salazar (D)

Connecticut : Dodd (D) Lieberman (D)

Delaware : Biden (D) Carper (D)

Fl orida : Martinez (R)

Hawaii : Akaka (D) Inouye (D)

Illinois : Durbin (D) Obama (D) ..... and him!!!

Indiana : Bayh (D) Lugar (R)

Iowa : Harkin (D)

Kansas : Brownback (R)

Louisiana : Landrieu (D)

Maryland : Mikulski (D) Sarbanes (D)

Massachusetts : Kennedy (D) Kerry (D)

Montana : Baucus (D)

Nebraska : Hagel (R)

Nevada : Reid (D)

New Jersey : Lautenberg (D) Menendez (D )

New Mexico : Bingaman (D)

New York : Schumer (D) ..... and, of course....Clin! ton (D)

North Dakota : Dorgan (D)

Ohio : DeWine (R) Voinovich(R)

Oregon : Wyden (D)

Pennsylvania : Specter (R)

Rhode Island : Chafee (R) Reed (D)

South Carolina : Graham (R)

South Dakota : Johnson (D)

Vermont : Jeffords (I) Leahy (D)

Washington : Cantwell (D) Murray (D)

West Virginia : Rockefeller (D), by Not Voting

Wisconsin ! : Feing old (D) Kohl (D)


BTW the last time I checked Franklin county was a hotbed of illegal immigrant activity. So before you go pointing any fingers.....
Just because he says it doesn't mean it's true.

"Mr. Director, as I’m sure you’re aware, the United States has by far the most unequal distribution of wealth, income and wealth, of any major country on earth, and increasingly we’re looking more like Brazil and Mexico than we are like Europe and Scandinavia, and other industrialized, ah, countries."

This is a gross misrepresentation of the facts.

"Senator Sanders: But you’ve given me an example of the facts that the wealthiest one-tenth of one percent earn more income than do the bottom 50 percent.

Director Nussel: They also pay taxes.

Senator Sanders: Of course they pay taxes, but not proportionate to what they earn. "

This is just wrong, and if he believes it he is an idiot, if he doesn't he is a liar. Either way he is a typical politician. Actually, the "rich" pay a much higher percentage of earnings than do others. There is another thread around here where I show actual percentages of tax to income.
quote:
Originally posted by skymaster:
quote:
Originally posted by JJPAUL:
quote:
Originally posted by skymaster:
JJPAUL,

Please give us a description of rich.




Greed more greed and greed to the point you vote republican and start a war and kill for oil and their is nothing you would not do for the love of money.


That is just a silly rant.

Can you not define rich



Whatever thats my description of rich. What might yours be?
What would be wrong with a straight 15%-20% on all income across the board. It is fair and would be a break to most middle class citizens. I do not have the numbers, but one could assume that this would generate at least as much revenue and maybe more than what is coming in now. No refunds, the rate is the rate. Also, that would eliminate the need for the IRS or at least greatly diminish their size which would also save money. I can't see how anyone could argue against everyone paying the same percentage of their income. It is cut and dry and everyone, regardless of wealth (or lack thereof) is treated the same.
I think the fairest way to impose taxes is using a consumption tax for non-essential items (exclude food and medicine). This way the person who wants to go out and buy a yacht pays a lot more than the guy who buys himself a little fishing boat with a trolling motor. If you buy a fancy car that costs a lot of money, then you pay more taxes than someone driving a less expensive car.

This would eliminate all the special interests who now get tax breaks because they have high-paid lobbyists who get all their loophole legislation passed.

And this way if you want to save your money, you can.
PB,

I agree with you on the consumption tax -- its a natural extension of the luxury taxes and tarriffs that financed the Republic for 150 years. Please don't faint that we agree on something.

Although I may work over at K Street in a few years, I've always said the evening shift on K St were more honest about what they did to the public than the lobbyists.
The so-called "rich" and middle income people would love any tax system that was fair. Their taxes would go down.
The people that don't want a "fair" system are the one's not paying anything and the government.

There are only two ways for taxes to be "fair".
We either need to all make the same, or all pay the same. Which do you think would be easier to accomplish ?
Not only do the wealthy BY FAR AND AWAY put in the most money in terms of taxes, they also tend to be the ones giving lower, working, middle, and upper middle class folks jobs. They also give charity(which is what is supposed to be...all the current tax structure does is force that charity)...but they give extra anyway. They pay for food, housing, and healtcare by CHOICE with charity. It is unconstitutional for the gov't to force this on anyone. The gov't is not to control what we do with our money. Please folks, this is American History 101. We are a democracy..a capitalistic society run by the free market system...that's how this country became SO great SO fast. No country has ever, nor will it ever tax itself into prosperity. The current tax system is nothing more than lunacy.
Doing away with inherited wealth and capital has been "American" for a long time, actually, Tom Paine, for one, advocated it, long before Karl Marx was a twinkle in his Mutters eye.

Bernie Sanders, who is a dear man and a great American, is not a "communist." He is a Democratic Socialist. Huge difference; like the difference between a snake handler and a Presbyterian. Bernie and I frequently correspond, and he is the one senator on whom I can count for the staff actually getting the reply in the "right on" pile of outgoing replies instead of the "thanks for you interest on a very complex and complicated issue".
quote:
Originally posted by Peace Brother:
I think the fairest way to impose taxes is using a consumption tax for non-essential items (exclude food and medicine). This way the person who wants to go out and buy a yacht pays a lot more than the guy who buys himself a little fishing boat with a trolling motor. If you buy a fancy car that costs a lot of money, then you pay more taxes than someone driving a less expensive car.

This would eliminate all the special interests who now get tax breaks because they have high-paid lobbyists who get all their loophole legislation passed.

And this way if you want to save your money, you can.


Most places, they call that "sales tax". It clearly fits the definition of a "flat tax".
quote:
Originally posted by DHS-86:
What would be wrong with a straight 15%-20% on all income across the board. It is fair and would be a break to most middle class citizens.

It's only fair from a mathematical standpoint. Say you make $20,000 this year. The $3,000 (15%) you would pay has much more impact on you than the $30,000 that someone making $200,000 would have to pay. A progressive tax really is fairer if you have any heart at all.

I do not have the numbers, but one could assume that this would generate at least as much revenue and maybe more than what is coming in now.

When a flat tax was first proposed, it was suggested that about 17% would be "revenue neutral". I don't think anyone can project the reaction of taxpayers and the resulting economic consequences to know with any reasonable assurance as to the net affect.

No refunds, the rate is the rate. Also, that would eliminate the need for the IRS or at least greatly diminish their size which would also save money.

Actually, this would not eliminate the need for the IRS at all. It would make much of their job easier. It would hurt the "tax lawyers", financial planners, and CPA's whose businesses depend on understanding complex tax laws better than the average person. There are still going to be people who don't pay, don't report, lie, and cheat. Without an organization to collect taxes, how many would actually pay?

I can't see how anyone could argue against everyone paying the same percentage of their income. It is cut and dry and everyone, regardless of wealth (or lack thereof) is treated the same.

Back to my first answer on this. I've been in the tax bracket that pays 15% of income, and the one that pay 39%. I was much happier with my tax situation in the 39% bracket, though it irked me that I didn't get the same deductions, exclusions, and credits that those in lower brackets did.
quote:
Originally posted by skymaster:
Its obvious from this silly video that you are envious of anyone making more money than you. Its already been proven on these forums that the wealthy pay more than their fair share of the tax burden.



Its obvious from this silly video that you are envious of anyone making more money than you.

What would make you think something like that?
No, I just think the good ol boys need to give back just alittle.
quote:
Originally posted by JJPAUL:
quote:
Originally posted by skymaster:
Its obvious from this silly video that you are envious of anyone making more money than you. Its already been proven on these forums that the wealthy pay more than their fair share of the tax burden.



Its obvious from this silly video that you are envious of anyone making more money than you.

What would make you think something like that?
No, I just think the good ol boys need to give back just alittle.



My question would be:

Who and how much more do you think they should give and whom do should they give it too ?

Let me guess; anyone that makes over xxx amount of dollars should give most of it to the government, who will in turn dole it out to anyone making less than yyy amount of dollars.

Sounds kinda like robbery, using laws instead of guns.
quote:
Originally posted by JJPAUL:
quote:
Originally posted by skymaster:
Its obvious from this silly video that you are envious of anyone making more money than you. Its already been proven on these forums that the wealthy pay more than their fair share of the tax burden.



Its obvious from this silly video that you are envious of anyone making more money than you.

What would make you think something like that?
No, I just think the good ol boys need to give back just alittle.


So how much should they give back? 70? 80? How much do YOU think the rich should pay? Who do YOU consider rich? HOw much do YOU think a person has to have to be rich?
Why are you asking him a question he will never answer? That statement in and of itself it s great example..."good ole boys need to give back"....let me guess reparations? more taxes? 40 acres and a mules? what is it that he thiks everyone else OWES to him?

here is Hitlery spending $180K on a party in Las Vegas....Ted Kennedy singing in spanish to "woo" the Hispanic crowd....flags of socialists leaders hanging in Obama's campaign HQs...what more do we need to see where this is going. BTW it is time for me to send my check into the IRS, you want me to just address to it you JJ and send it directly to you????

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