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Hi to my Forum Friends,

While there is no real urgency to post this as a new discussion; I feel that this issue is one of great importance to all Americans. And, it is one which all of us should endeavor to understand more fully. In a previous discussion which I began titled "Is It Unchristian To Support Strict Immigration Laws?" -- my Friend, BFred, has posted good comments and thoughts which we need to openly discuss. Therefore, to make sure that more Forum Friends see and possibly join in this discussion, I have broken it out as a new discussion.

BFred, while I respect your thoughts, I do take a slightly different view. You tell us, "This is 'slightly' off subject of the original post but brings to mind the night before last, while watching O'Reilly on Fox News, the host said. 'What would Jesus do about illegal immigration?'" As soon as I heard this, the thought came to mind, that I doubt Mary and Joseph stopped to get a visa when they escaped to Egypt to protect Jesus from Herod."

But, do you have any doubts, whatsoever, that IF a visa or passport had been required in those days -- that Joseph and Mary would have complied with the legal law? I do not. I know that those righteous people would have follow the law to the smallest letter.

Then, you tell us, "Additionally, I have to wonder if, when his disciples traveled to other parts of the world to preach, if they went through any legal channels to do so -- or if the sort of snuck in?

Once again, the same understanding applies. Do you really believe that Peter, Paul, and the others who were traveling to different countries to share the Gospel of Jesus Christ -- would have broken the laws of those countries and attempted to sneak in illegally? No, of course you do not. Like me, you know that those righteous men would have followed all the laws of the countries they were entering.

You say, "I would not drag Jesus into this argument because I think it’s obvious whose side he would be on."

Would Jesus encourage breaking the law? In Matthew 5:18 Jesus Christ tells us, "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished."

In the God inspired writings of the apostle Paul, we read in Romans 13:1, "Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God." Yes, that even includes Obama and his Congress. However, it does not, in any way, impede us from voting them OUT this November and in 2012.

So, would Jesus encourage breaking the law? I don't think so. Yes, He would have had, and would encourage, compassion. But, not to the extent of breaking or subverting the God ordained government and their laws.

Next, you tell us, "People who keep saying that the illegals need to go back and go through the correct legal channels to come here -- are very ignorant of what those legal channels are. Let’s suppose a young couple in Mexico wants to come here just for a visit. When they apply for a visa to come over they have to show that they own property, that they have a permanent job with about two years work history, they must have money in a bank account, a major credit card, etc…

Anyway, so much for your tired, your poor, and your huddled masses. If you want to come here you gotta have money. If you make two bucks an hour it is hopeless to have any of the requirements to come here, even to visit, much less to live here."


So, are you suggesting that America drop ALL legal requirements for people to immigrate here? If that were the case; America would not become a Third World Country -- we would quickly become a Fifth World Country.

While I have empathy for those who want to make a better life for themselves and their family -- we cannot drop all legal requirements for immigration. Otherwise, America would become the ghetto nation of the world.

You mention the poor people who make only $2 an hour and therefore sneak across our border in violation of our immigration laws. You do realize that these same folks manage to find $5,000 to $10,000 to pay the Coyotes who sneak them into America -- don't you? If they can do that; why can't they make that same effort to enter America legally? It would cost them no more -- and it would me immensely safer.

And, when you say, "Anyway, so much for your tired, your poor, and your huddled masses" -- you are ignoring the fact that this welcome is written on the Statue of Liberty -- and was welcoming "legal immigrants" as they came into America through Ellis Island. Nowhere on the Statue of Liberty do you see it written in Spanish -- or being posted on our southern borders or border fences.

You tell us, "With that said, I do agree that our borders need to be protected and secure, mostly because of terrorism and the drug traffic -- but also to make sure people are not crossing illegally. At the same time we need to 'lighten up' on the rules for visiting our country and for working here. Of course, we want to do all we can to insure the people coming here to visit are morally decent folks, but I do not think someone’s wealth is any indicator of their character."

I agree that we should take a serious look at our immigration laws -- and make corrections. The corrections should be to strengthen our borders -- and to make it somewhat easier for honest, hard working people to come here and work -- as long as those jobs they fill -- are not jobs where American citizens who are unemployed can work.

In the past, the immigration laws have touched me in very personal ways -- both positively and negatively. About 15 years ago, my wife, Dory, was working on an international project with a Filipino lady in Spain. We went to the Orange County office of Congressman Christopher Cox and requested a visa for her to come to America so that we could help her find a home to buy. With no hesitancy, the letter of approval was given to us. It happened so fast that I almost lost my breath.

Fast forward a couple of years. We had a friend in our church who was dying of cancer. Two of his sons still lived in the Philippines and we wanted them to be able to see their father before he died. We had letters from a number of prominent Christian leaders and business leaders saying they would accept personal responsibility for the two young men and their return to the Philippines.

The two young men: One was a serious college student and wanted to stay in the Philippines to finish college; so there is no doubt that, after his father's funeral, he would have gone home. The other had a good job with Philippine Airlines and was engaged to be married soon. No doubt that he was going back to the Philippines. Yet, Congressman Christopher Cox and his office would not even consider helping them visit their dad before he died.

I contacted Bill Clinton's white house and spoke with a number of people; receiving return calls from the State Department. They suggested I call the American Embassy in Manila -- which I did, several times.

The family of my friend delayed his funeral service for several days so that his sons might at least be able to attend the funeral. They were not able to come to their father's funeral. Our government would not allow this visit. Our government turned a cold shoulder to this family's needs. Yet, they had he money and the letters of assurance from prominent leaders. This was wrong.

In 1977, before I met my wife, I was dating a Mexican girl whose family lived about an hour south of Mexicali. One time I helped her drive to Mexicali, where I was dropped off at a hotel there for the weekend while she went to spend the weekend with her family. On the way home to Orange County, her sister came with us. The sister walked across the border at the gate, which can be done without a visa for folks who come to San Diego to work or shop. Once across, she joined us for the drive back to Orange County. Driving north on the freeway from San Diego to Orange County; the turn-off to go into Camp Pendleton comes before the Border Check Point.

Since her ex-husband had been a Captain in the Marine Corps and she still had her ID card; we drove into Camp Pendleton, drove across the base and exited beyond the Border Check Point. She had done this many times so that her sister could visit for a week or two, then go back home. However, it did make me wonder how many Marines pick up extra cash by doing the same thing for non-relatives. So, as you can see, I, too, have broken the immigration law -- but, it was when I was younger and not a Christian.

Fast forward to recent years. Dory and I have very good friends who are Mexican. He has his Green Card; his sister does not. They are both very law abiding (except for her immigration status), very hard working people whom I welcome as friends and would welcome as neighbors. Am I bothered by the fact that she does not have her Green Card? Yes, for several reasons. One, I do feel that she should make an effort to get it so that, when she goes home to visit their family, coming back would be much less dangerous for her. And, I would love to see her become an American citizen. Both she and her brother are what America is all about.

Yes, our immigration laws are in desperate need of overhaul. My sincere feeling is that our devoted leaders in Washington DC should have been working on this for the past year -- instead of ObamaCare.

Finally, you tell us, "Just in case any of what I said makes me sound like a Liberal, then think again. On most issues, I would be a little to the right of Reagan -- but I cannot stomach the Republican party's stance on immigration."

When you say "the Republican Party's" stance on immigration -- please be more specific. I am a Conservative, I am a Republican (although I will vote for the person, or the issue, not the party), I am Christian -- yet, I sincerely believe that America needs to close down the illegal border entries and have people coming into America through legal channels. Otherwise, we have absolutely NO CONTROL over who or what enters our communities, cities, states, and country.

Is my position an antiChristian stance on immigration? No, I do not believe it is; for we are told in the Bible to be good citizens as well as exemplary Christians. This we can do while still protecting our families, our communities, our states, and our nation.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Hi to my Forum Friends,

While there is no real urgency to post this as a new discussion; I feel that this issue is one of great importance to all Americans. And, it is one which all of us should endeavor to understand more fully. In a previous discussion which I began titled "Is It Unchristian To Support Strict Immigration Laws?" -- my Friend, BFred, has posted good comments and thoughts which we need to openly discuss. Therefore, to make sure that more Forum Friends see and possibly join in this discussion, I have broken it out as a new discussion.

BFred, while I respect your thoughts, I do take a slightly different view. You tell us, "This is 'slightly' off subject of the original post but brings to mind the night before last, while watching O'Reilly on Fox News, the host said. 'What would Jesus do about illegal immigration?'" As soon as I heard this, the thought came to mind, that I doubt Mary and Joseph stopped to get a visa when they escaped to Egypt to protect Jesus from Herod."

But, do you have any doubts, whatsoever, that IF a visa or passport had been required in those days -- that Joseph and Mary would have complied with the legal law? I do not. I know that those righteous people would have follow the law to the smallest letter.

Then, you tell us, "Additionally, I have to wonder if, when his disciples traveled to other parts of the world to preach, if they went through any legal channels to do so -- or if the sort of snuck in?

Once again, the same understanding applies. Do you really believe that Peter, Paul, and the others who were traveling to different countries to share the Gospel of Jesus Christ -- would have broken the laws of those countries and attempted to sneak in illegally? No, of course you do not. Like me, you know that those righteous men would have followed all the laws of the countries they were entering.

You say, "I would not drag Jesus into this argument because I think it’s obvious whose side he would be on."

Would Jesus encourage breaking the law? In Matthew 5:18 Jesus Christ tells us, "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished."

In the God inspired writings of the apostle Paul, we read in Romans 13:1, "Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God." Yes, that even includes Obama and his Congress. However, it does not, in any way, impede us from voting them OUT this November and in 2012.

So, would Jesus encourage breaking the law? I don't think so. Yes, He would have had, and would encourage, compassion. But, not to the extent of breaking or subverting the God ordained government and their laws.

Next, you tell us, "People who keep saying that the illegals need to go back and go through the correct legal channels to come here -- are very ignorant of what those legal channels are. Let’s suppose a young couple in Mexico wants to come here just for a visit. When they apply for a visa to come over they have to show that they own property, that they have a permanent job with about two years work history, they must have money in a bank account, a major credit card, etc…

Anyway, so much for your tired, your poor, and your huddled masses. If you want to come here you gotta have money. If you make two bucks an hour it is hopeless to have any of the requirements to come here, even to visit, much less to live here."


So, are you suggesting that America drop ALL legal requirements for people to immigrate here? If that were the case; America would not become a Third World Country -- we would quickly become a Fifth World Country.

While I have empathy for those who want to make a better life for themselves and their family -- we cannot drop all legal requirements for immigration. Otherwise, America would become the ghetto nation of the world.

You mention the poor people who make only $2 an hour and therefore sneak across our border in violation of our immigration laws. You do realize that these same folks manage to find $5,000 to $10,000 to pay the Coyotes who sneak them into America -- don't you? If they can do that; why can't they make that same effort to enter America legally? It would cost them no more -- and it would me immensely safer.

And, when you say, "Anyway, so much for your tired, your poor, and your huddled masses" -- you are ignoring the fact that this welcome is written on the Statue of Liberty -- and was welcoming "legal immigrants" as they came into America through Ellis Island. Nowhere on the Statue of Liberty do you see it written in Spanish -- or being posted on our southern borders or border fences.

You tell us, "With that said, I do agree that our borders need to be protected and secure, mostly because of terrorism and the drug traffic -- but also to make sure people are not crossing illegally. At the same time we need to 'lighten up' on the rules for visiting our country and for working here. Of course, we want to do all we can to insure the people coming here to visit are morally decent folks, but I do not think someone’s wealth is any indicator of their character."

I agree that we should take a serious look at our immigration laws -- and make corrections. The corrections should be to strengthen our borders -- and to make it somewhat easier for honest, hard working people to come here and work -- as long as those jobs they fill -- are not jobs where American citizens who are unemployed can work.

In the past, the immigration laws have touched me in very personal ways -- both positively and negatively. About 15 years ago, my wife, Dory, was working on an international project with a Filipino lady in Spain. We went to the Orange County office of Congressman Christopher Cox and requested a visa for her to come to America so that we could help her find a home to buy. With no hesitancy, the letter of approval was given to us. It happened so fast that I almost lost my breath.

Fast forward a couple of years. We had a friend in our church who was dying of cancer. Two of his sons still lived in the Philippines and we wanted them to be able to see their father before he died. We had letters from a number of prominent Christian leaders and business leaders saying they would accept personal responsibility for the two young men and their return to the Philippines.

The two young men: One was a serious college student and wanted to stay in the Philippines to finish college; so there is no doubt that, after his father's funeral, he would have gone home. The other had a good job with Philippine Airlines and was engaged to be married soon. No doubt that he was going back to the Philippines. Yet, Congressman Christopher Cox and his office would not even consider helping them visit their dad before he died.

I contacted Bill Clinton's white house and spoke with a number of people; receiving return calls from the State Department. They suggested I call the American Embassy in Manila -- which I did, several times.

The family of my friend delayed his funeral service for several days so that his sons might at least be able to attend the funeral. They were not able to come to their father's funeral. Our government would not allow this visit. Our government turned a cold shoulder to this family's needs. Yet, they had he money and the letters of assurance from prominent leaders. This was wrong.

In 1977, before I met my wife, I was dating a Mexican girl whose family lived about an hour south of Mexicali. One time I helped her drive to Mexicali, where I was dropped off at a hotel there for the weekend while she went to spend the weekend with her family. On the way home to Orange County, her sister came with us. The sister walked across the border at the gate, which can be done without a visa for folks who come to San Diego to work or shop. Once across, she joined us for the drive back to Orange County. Driving north on the freeway from San Diego to Orange County; the turn-off to go into Camp Pendleton comes before the Border Check Point.

Since her ex-husband had been a Captain in the Marine Corps and she still had her ID card; we drove into Camp Pendleton, drove across the base and exited beyond the Border Check Point. She had done this many times so that her sister could visit for a week or two, then go back home. However, it did make me wonder how many Marines pick up extra cash by doing the same thing for non-relatives. So, as you can see, I, too, have broken the immigration law -- but, it was when I was younger and not a Christian.

Fast forward to recent years. Dory and I have very good friends who are Mexican. He has his Green Card; his sister does not. They are both very law abiding (except for her immigration status), very hard working people whom I welcome as friends and would welcome as neighbors. Am I bothered by the fact that she does not have her Green Card? Yes, for several reasons. One, I do feel that she should make an effort to get it so that, when she goes home to visit their family, coming back would be much less dangerous for her. And, I would love to see her become an American citizen. Both she and her brother are what America is all about.

Yes, our immigration laws are in desperate need of overhaul. My sincere feeling is that our devoted leaders in Washington DC should have been working on this for the past year -- instead of ObamaCare.

Finally, you tell us, "Just in case any of what I said makes me sound like a Liberal, then think again. On most issues, I would be a little to the right of Reagan -- but I cannot stomach the Republican party's stance on immigration."

When you say "the Republican Party's" stance on immigration -- please be more specific. I am a Conservative, I am a Republican (although I will vote for the person, or the issue, not the party), I am Christian -- yet, I sincerely believe that America needs to close down the illegal border entries and have people coming into America through legal channels. Otherwise, we have absolutely NO CONTROL over who or what enters our communities, cities, states, and country.

Is my position an antiChristian stance on immigration? No, I do not believe it is; for we are told in the Bible to be good citizens as well as exemplary Christians. This we can do while still protecting our families, our communities, our states, and our nation.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill


Let me start by saying that I was not implying that we should drop all requirements for immigration and I do not believe what I wrote could have reasonably been taken that way, to sum it up I was trying to say similar to what you said in that we should make it easier for honest hard working people to come here. The part I take issue with is that I could care less if they displace an American worker if the foreign worker is better at the particular job. I am more interested in being productive than reserving jobs for anyone because of where they are born. American workers that do their jobs well (which I believe covers the majority of American workers) do not have to worry but if the competition is coming any slackers better shape up and get better at what they do. Competition is the American way and competition is one of the key elements of American quality. For several years as the economy boomed Hispanics came here for work and there was plenty of work for everyone including them, when the economy went sour most headed home but then they started to come back. They are not coming back so much for work as they are coming to escape the violence in Mexico. It has not been very long that I thought nothing more of walking around the middle of the night in Monterrey or Juarez than I did walking around Tuscumbia, things have changed over the last couple years though and I just pray that I don’t have to go there at all because of the violence.
Next thing is it does not cost 5 to 10k to get someone to help sneak you across the border, it is expensive and this is not something that is often paid in advance, we get to them working that debt off cooking and cleaning at Chinese and Mexican restaurants and yes that happens right here in the Shoals at least one Chinese restaurant that I know of.
As for the comment about “your tired, your poor, your huddled masses” I too was talking about legal immigration and that now it is almost exclusively available to only the wealthy. This is written at the base of the Statue of Liberty, if it is also on Ellis Island and not just Liberty Island then my bad but as boats carrying immigrants to Ellis Island passed Liberty Island the people would have needed one heck of a set of binoculars to read it. That was not the point though, the point is that the poem was meant as a message to all immigrants, no it is not written in Spanish and if I am not mistaken neither was it written in German, French, or any of the other European languages that covered many of the immigrants that came through Ellis Island.
Now back to the Christian part: If Joseph and Mary had been following the law of the land they would have turned Jesus over to be destroyed with the rest of the babies as Herod had ordered. I do not know if they were welcome in Egypt or not but they escaped to Egypt to eliminate the risk of Herod getting his hands on Jesus. There is no part of making an escape that includes applying for a visa or getting permission to cross the border. Yes Judea and Egypt were both part of the Roman Empire, Herod was the Roman ruler over Judea while Egypt had a separate ruler. Travel from one country to another in the Roman Empire did not have a whole lot of restrictions but was not like traveling from state to state here in the USA.
In the years after Jesus was executed the disciples mostly met in secret with other Christians in the lands they traveled to…..this would be because practicing Christianity was against the law in most of these places so that pretty well blows your idea of them following to the letter the laws of the lands they visited. This would be why the apostle Paul was put in prison and eventually beheaded and why Peter was executed, this would also be why so many early Christians were killed. As for their status of whether they were allowed to travel to the places they went I am unsure but it seems obvious they were not exactly welcomed by the governments of the lands they visited.
The point I tried to make in my previous post was in response to Juan Williams comment on the O’reilly Factor which was “what would Jesus do about illegal immigration”. My response to that question is to leave Jesus out of the debate because I believe he condones it under many circumstances. As for people who come here illegally, it will be a non issue for them come judgment day but when Mr. Williams is judged he might very well be admonished for saying such a thing.
This is off the subject of immigration but your statement “you know that those righteous men would have followed all the laws of the countries they were entering” actually I know from several Bible stories that just the opposite is true. A couple of stories that come to mind are Daniel and the lion’s den, and from the same period the story of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego both of these stories involve people who broke the law, if God did not condone it then who put the lions to sleep and who was that fourth person in the fire?
I could make my comments about the Arizona law but do not want to write a novel, this is already long enough. We had several years that a blind eye was turned to illegal immigration, the economy here was booming and we needed the extra workers. The illegal immigrants were filling a need at the time and that was the time to look at reforming our immigration laws instead of just ignoring it. A few years ago there was time to get it right where we could have attracted immigrants who would be assets to our communities and eliminated most of the liabilities. Now we are trying to make “quick fixes” which could violate the civil rights of people who are here legally. After our economy went to the crapper illegal immigrants were an easy target for blame when people couldn’t find jobs and a lot of hate and resentment toward them started to fester and has created a volatile situation. All of this could have been prevented and a win-win immigration system created if we had not waited so long. The bigotry and racism that has grown out of the problem is non-Christian in nature, most of this could have been prevented instead of using Gestapo type tactics to fix what is done.
We need our borders secured to keep more people from coming here illegally and as illegal’s are caught they should be deported, at the same time we need to revamp the immigration rules, our country is missing out on a lot of good people because of irrational immigration laws.
quote:
Originally posted by elinterventor01:
Egypt was part of the Roman empire, as was Judea. No papyrus required.
Yes both were part of the Roman Empire but were separate countries with their own borders, laws, and customs. Both countries had to answer to Rome but retained a small piece of their sovereignty. It is my understanding that travel was not severely restricted in the Roman Empire but that you could not just go from one country to another within the empire without going through at least a little red tape. Interestingly travel to Egypt from other parts of the empire was more restricted than most country to country travel.
You really make it sound like it is no big deal Bill, but the fact is they are milking our Country dry and soon there will be nothing for anybody.

all the people out of a Job and not one Mexican has left Franklin county,they are having Babies like Rabbits for the Welfare Check, Food Stamps, help with Heating Bills and probably Cooling, pay no Taxes,and at Tax time load up on that Earned income Credit. then there is medicaid free Medicine free Schooling and a Special Teacher for those that don't know English, but who cares Mr Obama can increase ya'lls taxes, would be terribly unchristian like to oppose that. I'm Retired, so ya'll hang in there.
Last edited by prince albert
quote:
Originally posted by tcf531:
there were several reasons for the fall of the roman empire, but most scholars agree that the three biggest reasons were:

1) heavy taxation with heavy handed collections

2) the government being influenced by christianity

3) the influx of immigrants from the poorer regions to the north

any of this sound familiar?

Hi TCF,

I have long been a history buff; but, your reasons for the fall of the Roman Empire, which you you say you get from history scholars, leaves me a wee bit confused. Especially items 2 and 3. Would you like to share your sources for these facts?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by BFred07:
This is off the subject of immigration, but your statement, “You know that those righteous men would have followed all the laws of the countries they were entering” -- actually I know from several Bible stories that just the opposite is true. A couple of stories that come to mind are Daniel and the lions den, and from the same period the story of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego both of these stories involve people who broke the law, if God did not condone it then who put the lions to sleep and who was that fourth person in the fire?

Hi BFred,

Your post, being one very long paragraph, was too hard to read. However, in just scanning through it, I did find this one point on which I would like to comment.

You are confusing civil law and God's Law. Regarding visas, etc. -- we are speaking of civil laws. And, when we talk about traveling from one country to another and the requirement of visa and passports -- this is strictly civil law.

Your original statement was regarding Joseph and Mary traveling to Egypt -- and the apostles and disciples who were spreading the Gospel -- and you implied that they had to sneak into the other countries. My statement, “You know that those righteous men would have followed all the laws of the countries they were entering” -- was addressing that original statement. And I will stand by my statement. These people did not break any civil laws in their travels. And, if such things as visa had been required in those days; I am sure they would have complied and entered the countries legally. That is what we ask of immigrants today.

The examples you gave from the book of Daniel was a case of pagans and pagan kings trying to impose their pagan worship and pagan gods upon these children of the true God. Daniel and his friends refused to worship pagan gods -- and their true God delivered them from the lion's den and from the fiery furnace. Civil laws we keep -- and God's commandments we keep. Pagan gods and pagan laws, we are not bound to honor when they conflict with God's Word.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by prince albert:
You really make it sound like it is no big deal Bill, but the fact is they are milking our Country dry and soon there will be nothing for anybody.

Hi Albert,

If I gave the impression that I do not consider the massive influx of illegal aliens into our country a problem; I apologize for that. I most certainly do see this as a major problem. And, this is why I have been writing articles to encourage discussions on this issue.

I, too, get very irked when I see our government doling out free this and free that to support close to 20 million illegals -- while many Americans are being denied requested help.

Like you, I am retired. So, every nickel does count in my budget. And, when I see our government coddling these illegals -- instead of sending them home; I get upset.

Let me give you a few examples:

Some thirty plus years ago, I had a friend who was retired Navy. His wife was Filipina; so they petitioned to have her mother come live with them in California. Very shortly after the mother arrived in America; they had her apply for Social Security -- and it was approved. This woman had never worked a day of her life in America -- yet, she was able to get Social Security.

We have a friend today whose mother came to America about five years ago. Again, this woman never worked a day of her life in America -- yet, she is getting Social Security. My wife has been in America for almost fifty years; she worked hard to become a naturalized American citizen; she has always worked and paid into Social Security.

Yet, this woman who just came here, this woman who has never worked and paid into Social Security -- is being paid more than my wife -- almost double what my wife gets from Social Security. Why? This woman never paid into Social Security. This woman has only herself to support; so, no children or dependents to claim. Why is her Social Security check almost double what my wife, who has worked most of her life in America, gets from Social Security? The only answer can be: Our liberal government.

Another example: Dory and I had a friend, an older woman, who before she had several strokes worked with Dory in real estate. Mary, our friend, had a stroke and could not work. Her Social Security was not enough for her to support herself. She needed only an additional $25 a month to help pay her rent for her apartment. So, Dory took her to several government agencies -- and to United Way -- where she requested help of only $25 a month so that she could stay in her apartment.

They all, including United Way, turned her down. Why? Mary was wearing a nice suit. Many years earlier, Mary had been married and was rather affluent. During this time, she had been able to accumulate nice clothing -- which, all these years later, she could still wear and not look like a homeless person. And, she was wearing an inexpensive jade ring which she still had from previous years.

At these agencies, and at United Way, they told her that she dressed too nicely -- so, they could not help her with the $25 a month. They refused to help her because she had taken care of what she had from her earlier life when her husband was alive.

Shortly after this, I read in the newspaper that the president of United Way was getting a salary of almost one million dollars a year. Should one wonders why I would not give a nickel to United Way?

Also, in all the offices where our friend, Mary, was turned down and refused the $25 a month stipend -- virtually all the office workers were Hispanic. I wonder how many had legal Green Cards?

No, Albert, I am not trying to say that illegal immigrants are not a big deal. I am saying that if our government stopped supporting 20 million illegal immigrants in America -- they might be able to help people like my friend, Mary, who was, before her death, an American born American citizen.

However, I still believe that we should have better immigration laws which would aid those who rightfully are immigrating to America through legal channels. I do not believe that immigrants coming to America should be able to draw money from Social Security. Only those who, during a lifetime of working in America, paid into Social Security, should be able to draw Social Security.

And, as I said in an earlier post, if these people would go home and enter America legally, instead of paying a Coyote $5,000 to $10,000 to smuggle them into America -- I would welcome them with open arms. Still I would not want to see them draining the Social Security funds.

America does need to overhaul our immigration laws -- to help those who are coming here legally -- and to get rid of those who are breaking our laws by being here illegally.

God bless, have wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by BFred07:
This is off the subject of immigration, but your statement, “You know that those righteous men would have followed all the laws of the countries they were entering” -- actually I know from several Bible stories that just the opposite is true. A couple of stories that come to mind are Daniel and the lions den, and from the same period the story of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego both of these stories involve people who broke the law, if God did not condone it then who put the lions to sleep and who was that fourth person in the fire?

Hi BFred,

Your post, being one very long paragraph, was too hard to read. However, in just scanning through it, I did find this one point on which I would like to comment.

You are confusing civil law and God's Law. Regarding visas, etc. -- we are speaking of civil laws. And, when we talk about traveling from one country to another and the requirement of visa and passports -- this is strictly civil law.

Your original statement was regarding Joseph and Mary traveling to Egypt -- and the apostles and disciples who were spreading the Gospel -- and you implied that they had to sneak into the other countries. My statement, “You know that those righteous men would have followed all the laws of the countries they were entering” -- was addressing that original statement. And I will stand by my statement. These people did not break any civil laws in their travels. And, if such things as visa had been required in those days; I am sure they would have complied and entered the countries legally. That is what we ask of immigrants today.

The examples you gave from the book of Daniel was a case of pagans and pagan kings trying to impose their pagan worship and pagan gods upon these children of the true God. Daniel and his friends refused to worship pagan gods -- and their true God delivered them from the lion's den and from the fiery furnace. Civil laws we keep -- and God's commandments we keep. Pagan gods and pagan laws, we are not bound to honor when they conflict with God's Word.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill


It's actually 9 paragraphs, most are clear but this forum does not show an indent. It took being long winded to answer each of your statements about what I posted as there were many..
I was not confused about anything, you said they followed the law of all the lands they entered and I cited some incidents were they did not. You said those instances interfered with God's law, I figured you would say that.


"When an alien lives with you in your land, do not mistreat him. The alien living with you must be treated as one of your native born. Love him as yourself, for you were aliens in Egypt. I am the Lord your God."
Leviticus 19:33-34
quote:
Originally posted by BFred07:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by BFred07:
This is off the subject of immigration, but your statement, “You know that those righteous men would have followed all the laws of the countries they were entering” -- actually I know from several Bible stories that just the opposite is true. A couple of stories that come to mind are Daniel and the lions den, and from the same period the story of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego both of these stories involve people who broke the law, if God did not condone it then who put the lions to sleep and who was that fourth person in the fire?

Hi BFred,

Your post, being one very long paragraph, was too hard to read. However, in just scanning through it, I did find this one point on which I would like to comment.

You are confusing civil law and God's Law. Regarding visas, etc. -- we are speaking of civil laws. And, when we talk about traveling from one country to another and the requirement of visa and passports -- this is strictly civil law.

Your original statement was regarding Joseph and Mary traveling to Egypt -- and the apostles and disciples who were spreading the Gospel -- and you implied that they had to sneak into the other countries. My statement, “You know that those righteous men would have followed all the laws of the countries they were entering” -- was addressing that original statement. And I will stand by my statement. These people did not break any civil laws in their travels. And, if such things as visa had been required in those days; I am sure they would have complied and entered the countries legally. That is what we ask of immigrants today.

The examples you gave from the book of Daniel was a case of pagans and pagan kings trying to impose their pagan worship and pagan gods upon these children of the true God. Daniel and his friends refused to worship pagan gods -- and their true God delivered them from the lion's den and from the fiery furnace. Civil laws we keep -- and God's commandments we keep. Pagan gods and pagan laws, we are not bound to honor when they conflict with God's Word.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill


It's actually 9 paragraphs, most are clear but this forum does not show an indent. It took being long winded to answer each of your statements about what I posted as there were many..
I was not confused about anything, you said they followed the law of all the lands they entered and I cited some incidents were they did not. You said those instances interfered with God's law, I figured you would say that.

"When an alien lives with you in your land, do not mistreat him. The alien living with you must be treated as one of your native born. Love him as yourself, for you were aliens in Egypt. I am the Lord your God." Leviticus 19:33-34

Hi BFred,

What I was doing was making the distinction between civil law and God's Law. We are obligated as Christians to follow the commandments of God. We are obligated as Christians to follow civil laws -- unless they conflict with God's Law -- which is the case in the book of Daniel.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:

Hi BFred,

What I was doing was making the distinction between civil law and God's Law. We are obligated as Christians to follow the commandments of God. We are obligated as Christians to follow civil laws -- unless they conflict with God's Law -- which is the case in the book of Daniel.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

I have already addressed that twice, this is getting a bit redundant.
There is a clear difference between breaking a statute law of civil origin and the Spirit of Christ. You just want to make everything "conservative family Protestant Saved Values" don't you Billy?

You have some nerve using the Bible to justify anything of civil origin while neglecting to address why the people are here and why they stay for their families, I would wager.

Now who was the "Wandering Aramean" mentioned on the First Night of Passover? I reckon it was Abram. Who took in Moses, if not the tribe of Jethro in the Asian desert, no one in Egypt, that is certain. The Lord's family fled to Egypt which is in Africa the last time I checked, save for the small amount of Sinai Peninsula. Where did Abraham and Sarah go when their flocks lacked feed and water? Egypt, right? Where did Joseph's brothers take refuge during a famine?

Leave the politics out of it. Get the turd out of the punch bowl. Lighten up Guillermo.
Hi Neal/Aude,

You tell me, "There is a clear difference between breaking a statute law of civil origin and the Spirit of Christ. You just want to make everything 'conservative family Protestant Saved Values' don't you Billy?"

No, I want to make everything "Conservative Family Bible Saved Values" -- a huge difference.

Then, you mumble, "You have some nerve using the Bible to justify anything of civil origin while neglecting to address why the people are here and why they stay for their families, I would wager."

So, we are supposed to lay aside ALL laws of America for them -- just because they want to make a better life for themselves and their families? Well, the American born citizen who robs banks to make a better life for himself and his family should have the same right -- to lay aside ALL laws against robbing banks. And, how about the people who want to burglarize your home to make a better life for themselves?

As I have clearly said -- if these people will go home and, then, immigrate into America through LEGAL channels -- we will welcome them with open arms.

Next, you wander into the desert with, "Now who was the 'Wandering Aramean' mentioned on the First Night of Passover? I reckon it was Abram. Who took in Moses, if not the tribe of Jethro in the Asian desert, no one in Egypt, that is certain. The Lord's family fled to Egypt which is in Africa the last time I checked, save for the small amount of Sinai Peninsula. Where did Abraham and Sarah go when their flocks lacked feed and water? Egypt, right? Where did Joseph's brothers take refuge during a famine?"

Please tell us what civil laws, or any other kind of laws, Abraham and Sarah, or Moses, or Joseph and his brothers -- or any other Old Testament people broke in their travels?

Finally, your lack of class and civility is only surpassed by your, well, I will leave that to your vulgar imagination, when you write, "Leave the politics out of it. Get the turd out of the punch bowl. Lighten up Guillermo."

All I can say to this is, "Look out, Neal, your CLASS or lack of CLASS is definitely showing!" You don't get out in public much do you? Or, maybe it is just the crowd you hang with -- or the neighborhood where you hang.

By the way, my name is not really William; it is, believe it or not -- Billy Joe! Right out of the Heart of Dixie! But, I sometimes say Guillermo myself.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by tcf531:
quote:
Please tell us what civil laws, or any other kind of laws, Abraham and Sarah, or Moses, or Joseph and his brothers -- or any other Old Testament people broke in their travels?

murder, rape, incest, theivery????

Hi TCF,

I must be from Missouri. You will have to show me where in the Bible Abraham, Sarah, Moses, or Joseph committed murder, rape, incest, or thievery.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:

Please tell us what civil laws, or any other kind of laws, Abraham and Sarah, or Moses, or Joseph and his brothers -- or any other Old Testament people broke in their travels?


Wow, now we have a conversation gone from whether or not it is non-Christian to support immigration laws that interfere with both the rights of citizens and legal guests in this country along with the illegals to how much law breaking was done in the Bible. Since we are now on this subject did Joseph's brothers not sell him into slavery on one of their journey's? That of course is a retorical question as you and I both know that to be fact.
As for is it non-Christian in nature for the immigration laws to be as they stand I will once again refer you to Leviticus 19:33-34. This of course makes my view a non-Christian view too because I am not very welcoming of illegal immigrants myself and think more needs to be done to keep them from crossing the border but at the same time I am very sympathetic to their reasons for coming here even if it is illegal and think the laws should be changed to allow a wider range of decent people from other countries to come here. Additionally although I do not think complete amnesty should be offered I do think the ones who are already here should be able to apply for a visa to stay without having to go home first.
The reasons for the controversy are bleeding-heart liberals and people who choose to make decisions based solely on what they hear from knee-jerk reacting Washingtonians. Arizona had the responsibility to step it up, since the feds weren't doing their part to enforce the law. If you want to be mad at someone, be mad at all the people trying/succeeding to come into the country illegally. They're giving the legal ones a bad rap.
quote:
The reasons for the controversy are bleeding-heart liberals and people who choose to make decisions based solely on what they hear from knee-jerk reacting Washingtonians. Arizona had the responsibility to step it up, since the feds weren't doing their part to enforce the law. If you want to be mad at someone, be mad at all the people trying/succeeding to come into the country illegally. They're giving the legal ones a bad rap.


So true, Tomme. Just like in every facet of life- all it takes is a few bad seeds to ruin the fun for everyone. Frowner
I can add that to go through the proper channels in immigration is probably one of the most frustrating and lengthy processes EVER. It can take up to 8-10 years to become a citizen.(for a professional, working and paying taxes in the US: after going through the Visa's,etc)
The system is just so backward...
quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
quote:
The reasons for the controversy are bleeding-heart liberals and people who choose to make decisions based solely on what they hear from knee-jerk reacting Washingtonians. Arizona had the responsibility to step it up, since the feds weren't doing their part to enforce the law. If you want to be mad at someone, be mad at all the people trying/succeeding to come into the country illegally. They're giving the legal ones a bad rap.

So true, Tomme. Just like in every facet of life- all it takes is a few bad seeds to ruin the fun for everyone.
I can add that to go through the proper channels in immigration is probably one of the most frustrating and lengthy processes EVER. It can take up to 8-10 years to become a citizen.(for a professional, working and paying taxes in the US: after going through the Visa's,etc)
The system is just so backward...

Hi VP,

It is true that the immigration process can be long and arduous. I have friends and associates who have waited literally years to be able to bring their spouse, children, parents to the U.S. It was very hard for them; but, they did it through legal channels.

Should we set aside all of our immigration laws to accommodate those 12 to 20 million illegals already in America? Should we set aside all of our laws to accommodate all those in Mexico and South America who want to come to America?

No.

If we did, America would be quickly become worse than a third world country.

The first responsibility of our government is to protect America and Americans -- not to provide a safe haven for every person who is sneaking across our borders.

Yes, I have empathy for them. But, we must keep our own house in order. Otherwise, Americans would be looking for another country where we could sneak in to find a better life.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Should we set aside all of our immigration laws to accommodate those 12 to 20 million illegals already in America? Should we set aside all of our laws to accommodate all those in Mexico and South America who want to come to America?


I didn't say that at all. I said it was a broken system, and doesn't work very well for people trying to legitimately come to this country.
quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
quote:
Should we set aside all of our immigration laws to accommodate those 12 to 20 million illegals already in America? Should we set aside all of our laws to accommodate all those in Mexico and South America who want to come to America?

I didn't say that at all. I said it was a broken system, and doesn't work very well for people trying to legitimately come to this country.

Hi VP,

I agree with you completely. The system is very broke. I discovered that when I went all the way from our local U.S. Congressman, to the White House, and the State Department in an attempt to have the two sons of a dying Friend allowed to see their father before he died -- or, at least, to be able to attend his funeral. And, we could not make it happen -- even with letters from many prominent civic and Christian leaders.

Yet, when I applied for a Filipina client to come from Spain to America to buy a house -- the same local U.S. Congressman gave a letter of approval immediately.

Explain the logic in this.

Yet, giving amnesty to 12-20 million illegal immigrants who have already broken American laws by coming here -- will not improve the system. All it will do is give the Liberal Democrats 12-20 million more votes.

Yes, let's fix the system. No on amnesty! Fix the system by VOTING IN new senators and congressmen who WILL fix the system.

And, in 2012 -- send Obama back to the farm.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by BFred07:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:

Hi BFred,

What I was doing was making the distinction between civil law and God's Law. We are obligated as Christians to follow the commandments of God. We are obligated as Christians to follow civil laws -- unless they conflict with God's Law -- which is the case in the book of Daniel.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

I have already addressed that twice, this is getting a bit redundant.


Welcome to Bill's world!! He will twist and turn and squirm but never admit you are right. He will even correct those that are agreeing with him sometimes. He picks and chooses the parts of the bible that support his current argument. I (among others) have ask him direct questions and are still waiting for a direct answer. He will bombard you with lengthy responses that are all over the place and then tell you that your post was too long and unreadable for him to actually read entirely.

Most of us who have tried to communicate with him have long since given up....however I will admit to baiting him sometimes with questions that I know will force him to show his true colors... Big Grin
quote:
Originally posted by Jankinonya:
quote:
Originally posted by BFred07:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Hi BFred,

What I was doing was making the distinction between civil law and God's Law. We are obligated as Christians to follow the commandments of God. We are obligated as Christians to follow civil laws -- unless they conflict with God's Law -- which is the case in the book of Daniel.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

I have already addressed that twice, this is getting a bit redundant.


Welcome to Bill's world!! He will twist and turn and squirm but never admit you are right. He will even correct those that are agreeing with him sometimes. He picks and chooses the parts of the bible that support his current argument. I (among others) have ask him direct questions and are still waiting for a direct answer. He will bombard you with lengthy responses that are all over the place and then tell you that your post was too long and unreadable for him to actually read entirely.

Most of us who have tried to communicate with him have long since given up....however I will admit to baiting him sometimes with questions that I know will force him to show his true colors...

Hi Jan,

It is not a matter of who is right -- BFred, Jan, or Bill. The only thing which matters is that the Bible is right -- all the time.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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