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from what i heard, it's not really a mosque, exactly. it's sort of a 'cultural information center' kinda thing.

also, it's not AT ground zero, it's a couple miles away.

but, don't we have freedom of religon in the country?

if we're able to not laugh our rears off when faced with Scientology, a religion founded by a science fiction author, then why not a acctual religion, with prophets and commandments and whatnot?

personally i think l ron hubbard might be the most unsung genious of the 20th century. imagine writing a fiction book so well that you ned up with millions of 'converts'.
the worlds biggest joke book, and no one by the author got the joke. that's amusing to me.
People are so obsessed with this proposed project they forget:
(1) It is not a mosque. It is an Islamic center that is proposed.
(2) A mosque ALREADY exists in the same area and has been there since 1970.
(3) Out of one side of their mouth some claim to defend our Constitutional rights while they want them destroyed out of the other side.
Sad.
quote:
Originally posted by AlabamaSon:
People are so obsessed with this proposed project they forget:
(1) It is not a mosque. It is an Islamic center that is proposed.
(2) A mosque ALREADY exists in the same area and has been there since 1970.
(3) Out of one side of their mouth some claim to defend our Constitutional rights while they want them destroyed out of the other side.
Sad.

Alason, They want you dead. It's also a slap in the face because they can. What
happened to the true american's?
quote:
Originally posted by Gifted Child:
quote:
Originally posted by AlabamaSon:
People are so obsessed with this proposed project they forget:
(1) It is not a mosque. It is an Islamic center that is proposed.
(2) A mosque ALREADY exists in the same area and has been there since 1970.
(3) Out of one side of their mouth some claim to defend our Constitutional rights while they want them destroyed out of the other side.
Sad.

Alason, They want you dead. It's also a slap in the face because they can. What
happened to the true american's?


I have plenty of Muslim friends who don't want me dead. Recognize the difference. Islam has its whackos just like Christianity has its whackos (David Koresh, Jim Jones, etc.). If we continue down the path of rejecting our own idea to recognize freedoms then we seed dissent and division which will lead to something terrible. We can't become what we despise. We are better off working on illegal immigration and border security along with ending the exportation of our jobs. These issues will be our downfall.
quote:
I have plenty of Muslim friends who don't want me dead. Recognize the difference. Islam has its whackos just like Christianity has its whackos (David Koresh, Jim Jones, etc.).



David Koresh or Jim Jones are bad examples on your part there AS.....Both of them claimed to be god/jesus in the flesh....that would kind of keep them from being christian....they were a cult.

Freedom of Religion is a written with a broad stroke. Then everyone wants to pick it apart with a very sharp knife. It is not your religions freedom to preach death to America and Americans then throw it in our face....if that is what you want to preach and dance when you kill americans then get the hell out!!!!
quote:
Originally posted by barksdale.jeff:
It is not your religions freedom to preach death to America and Americans then throw it in our face...


It most certainly is.

I despise, absolutely despise, the KKK. But I would pick up arms and fight with them if our government ever tried to silence them.

This mosque is an example of how great our freedom is in this country. I am a Christian and while I support the right of every American to protest this as much as they want, I would also stand against the government if they dare step in and try to stop them. Our right to free speech is that important.

Oh, and by the way, the stupid thing is being built two blocks from the WTC. In that area, 2 blocks is about a half a mile. The stupid news reports keep saying it is "at ground zero" when it clearly is not.
quote:
I despise, absolutely despise, the KKK. But I would pick up arms and fight with them if our government ever tried to silence them.


So by this arguement you would agree to the KKK opening a building on West Mobile St?

You can preach your hate all you want but when you take it to someone's front step and throw it in their face you are out of bounds of your rights.
quote:
So by this arguement you would agree to the KKK opening a building on West Mobile St?



That would suck. I would join others in protest and do all I could as a private citizen exercising my freedom of speech to shame them into not opening there.

But the moment the government stepped in, I would have to change sides...or perhaps solicit the ACLU to do my bidding for me. Our freedom is that important.

Can't you see that if you get your way and the government steps in, that opens the door to the government stopping you from opening your church near a mosque?

How can you possibly live as an American and not see this obvious danger????
quote:
Originally posted by thenagel:
from what i heard, it's not really a mosque, exactly. it's sort of a 'cultural information center' kinda thing.

also, it's not AT ground zero, it's a couple miles away.

but, don't we have freedom of religon in the country?



Exactly. I don't understand the thinking behind those who seem to believe the President shouldnt mention or support religious freedoms unless of course its theirs...
While any religion, as well as Islam, deserves the right to build a "community center" or Mosque on private property close by to where Ground Zero is a Religion or group of people whose followers (all be it they were radicals) should have enough sensitivity for the victims to realize that it would be insensitive to construct such a visible sign of their religion nearby. While it's not technically on the site or property of Ground Zero it is close enough and the real problem is that no one knows where the money is coming from, for the project, and therefore no one really knows the "MOTIVE" for its construction. The chances are just as good that the people behind the construction of this new site are doing it for the wrong reasons as the right ones. While America is a free country it's in very bad taste to be done as has been advertised, to this point. The President though had no reason to jump into this argument though other than to try and appease Muslims across the World. It is a known divisive issue, very much in New York so why would the President need to be involved in a "local issue" other than because of it's symbolism in connection with September 11th and the attack on the Trade Center.

It's interesting though the comparison between Presidents ... President Obama speaks openly, from Washington, about allowing the Mosque to be built all while not knowing who is really behind it's financing and the purpose for it's construction and President Bush who, from Ground Zero, lashed out at those who caused the attack and promised retribution for the attacks.

I received a couple of Emails the other day regarding President Obama and the past Presidents. In fact ALL Presidents other than President Obama always spoke with the American Flag prominently displayed behind them at all times at every event. President Obama however, in the photo attached to the email had no flags displayed behind him while speaking. This from the only President I ever knew to apologize for actions of this country as if we did something wrong. For those reasons I think it was inappropriate for him to get involved in this New York issue.
quote:
Originally posted by uandurine:
I wonder what happened to the separation of church and state? President Obama seems to be making the rules as he goes along. He takes over private companies, doesn't enforce the immigration laws, and now sticks his nose into religious situations.


You're kidding, right? President Obama did not stick his nose in anything except to say they have the right to exercise their freedom. It wasn't that long ago everyone was complaining he wasn't sticking his nose into religion enough with not declaring a day of prayer.
It dosen't matter . If he had said he opposes it, the same idiots who are now decrying him for what he said , would flame on him for "opposing our freedoms".
I don't see any place where he "declared his support for the mosque", what he said in affect was that the owner of the property could build whatever he wanted on his own property, and that we have freedom of religion in this country and are free to build whatever church the owner wants.
FREEDOM !!! What's wrong here, don't you get it?

First they came for the Moslem's. I didn't care, because I'm not of that faith. Then they came for the Camelites. They don't like music so fine with me. Then they came for the Baptist. Sounded like a winner to me, I ain't one of them either. Then they came for the Methodist- Now they are meddling around in religion and need to take stop, but there was no one left to protest !, we had already lost our freedom.
I believe this country was founded on the concept of "We the People"

I believe in all my heart that "We the People" have a problem with this community center or what ever in the hell you want to call it being within a 50 mile radius of the worse attack on america in our current time.

If any american has a problem with this then all I can tell you is that you have no place in this country and you can kiss my A**

There is no way in the world that I will ever in my heart believe that there are young american boys defending this country abroad and that some jack*ss back here saying that it is their right to build this.

If you believe this then you are no different than the memebers of Westboro Baptist Church

I say get some balls and pick a side....we are under attack....ACLU my *ss.....they pick and choose what they want......its time this county stood tall and with piss ant attitudes that will condone this community center to be built will be the downfall of this country
quote:
Originally posted by barksdale.jeff:
I believe this country was founded on the concept of "We the People"

I believe in all my heart that "We the People" have a problem with this community center or what ever in the hell you want to call it being within a 50 mile radius of the worse attack on america in our current time.

If any american has a problem with this then all I can tell you is that you have no place in this country and you can kiss my A**

There is no way in the world that I will ever in my heart believe that there are young american boys defending this country abroad and that some jack*ss back here saying that it is their right to build this.

If you believe this then you are no different than the memebers of Westboro Baptist Church

I say get some balls and pick a side....we are under attack....ACLU my *ss.....they pick and choose what they want......its time this county stood tall and with piss ant attitudes that will condone this community center to be built will be the downfall of this country


I'm American. I believe in everyone's freedoms. I think you ought to check your words my friend. The Westboro Baptist Church is on your side of the argument. Not that I think you are associated with them. But you seem to agree with them on this topic.
quote:
I'm American. I believe in everyone's freedoms. I think you ought to check your words my friend. The Westboro Baptist Church is on your side of the argument. Not that I think you are associated with them. But you seem to agree with them on this topic.


No AS....if you believe that the killers of 911 have every right to errect a shrine or community center or whatever in the hell you choose to call it close to ground zero then you my friend are on the side of Westboro Baptist Church. Beause you believe it is their right to protest the death of an american soldier.

by your arguement you believe both have the same right?
quote:
Originally posted by seeweed:
"I may detest what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it " Voltaire


Dang it Seaweed, i was comeing here to use that exact line.


i hate the KKK and everything they stand for.
i hate harry reid and nancy pelosi. i hate michael moore with a passion.
i hate rush limbaugh. i don't hate glen beck, but i do think he's a total lunatic.

however, these people have the same right to speak their mind, and to take any action or begin any project that the law allows, and while i hate them, i support their endeavor fully. they have the same right to speak their mind that i do.
i also have the right to ignore them and not listen to anything they have to say.

some one asked if we would support the KKK opening an office on mobile street.

yes, i would.

i'd spend a few minutes educating my children about them, and we'd avoid the place like the plague. but they'd have every right to do so if they chose.
the same as the black panthers would have for the same thing.

i think the democrats are radically wrong in their ideals and what they want for this country BUT i applaud them fighting for what THEY believe to be right.

"the boys"... our men and women in the armed services are fighting for exactly that - the freedom of americans to do anything that the law and the constitution allows, to enjoy our lives under the broad blanket of freedom it provides ALL of us. they are fighting and killing and dying to protect those peoples right to try and build a 'mosque', AND your right to say you don't like it.

you have every right to protest it, but you do NOT have the right to tell them they cannot do it.


you're right.. it is WE the people. not US the people, and THEM those other guys.

WE THE PEOPLE includes skinheads, neo-nazis, Jews, Catholics, scientoligists, mormons, muslims, louis farrahkhan and malcom x, john rocker, howard stern, al franken, bill mahr, the little old lady with the blue hair driving 25 miles an hours on the interstate, mailyn manson, ted nugent, me, you and even bill gray.
quote:
Originally posted by barksdale.jeff:
quote:
I'm American. I believe in everyone's freedoms. I think you ought to check your words my friend. The Westboro Baptist Church is on your side of the argument. Not that I think you are associated with them. But you seem to agree with them on this topic.


No AS....if you believe that the killers of 911 have every right to errect a shrine or community center or whatever in the hell you choose to call it close to ground zero then you my friend are on the side of Westboro Baptist Church. Beause you believe it is their right to protest the death of an american soldier.

by your arguement you believe both have the same right?


Yet again your logic is flawed. Where do you find a connection between the Islamic Center, a shrine, and 9/11? You are making assumptions or theories that are unproven. Nobody is protesting a grave. I'm sorry, but it sounds too much like someone who is misled.

EDIT: I will ask again, "What do you do about the mosque that is ALREADY THERE?"
AS obviously no one cares that a mosque is there. My dad said something to me once that has always stuck with me. I was about 13 and we were at a grocery store and ran into a man he knew. After a few minutes the man made a crude reference towards Vietnam Veterans. I was offended as my dad is a veteran but my dad kept his cool. When we left I asked why he didn't say anything. He simply replied "I fought so he could have the right to say that son."
quote:
Originally posted by wright35633:
AS obviously no one cares that a mosque is there. My dad said something to me once that has always stuck with me. I was about 13 and we were at a grocery store and ran into a man he knew. After a few minutes the man made a crude reference towards Vietnam Veterans. I was offended as my dad is a veteran but my dad kept his cool. When we left I asked why he didn't say anything. He simply replied "I fought so he could have the right to say that son."


Your point is well taken but there also exist responsibility and reason when it comes to dissent and taking a stand. Forgive me but I cannot relay the exact facts of this true story so I will just reference a website and post the part of the site that makes my point.

Here is the text" John Wayne was always a solid backer of our troops. During the Vietnam War, he was one of the few from Hollywood who firmly supported our soldiers. In his tribute to Wayne, Ronald Reagan wrote of an incident that occurred when Duke and actor Jimmy Stewart were traveling together to attend an event; along the way, they encounter a group of demonstrators who were carrying a Vietcong flag. Jimmy Stewart had just lost a son in Vietnam. It seems that Duke excused himself and walked into the crowd; when he returned there was no Vietcong flag.

Click for the page the above is referenced from



Demonstrators just like the Westboro Baptist Church demonstrators and just like the Muslims or any other religion or religious group has freedom to express their views no matter how wild or out of the mainstream they are but there is tact and there is responsibly to be considerate to the actions of the group they represent.

Given the acts by members of Islam's radical fringe the inevitable feelings that the construction of a Mosque will have for those with loved ones killed, with other many loyal Americans there will be many very strong feelings due to this construction and no one really knows who is financing it or the reasons for their building it. It well could be a symbol, to many Muslims, of Victory or a victorious strike in their Jihad. It could be celebration that their members stuck at the Americans or it could be totally innocent and everyone's fears are misplaced. Westboro Baptist should be ashamed for their protest and the way they do it but it is said they have the right to do so. Too bad we don't have more Marion Michael Morrisons or John Waynes in America to add some sanity to all the insanity that seems to abound today and the Westboro Baptist type demonstrations would no be news. There are right and wrong ways to express our freedoms. It remains to see how the Muslims will honor those killed on September 11th, if at all or how the Mosque will be seen and portrayed and much, in my mind, will depend on those answers that will only come later.
quote:
If you believe this then you are no different than the memebers of Westboro Baptist Church

I say get some balls and pick a side....we are under attack....ACLU my *ss.....they pick and choose what they want......its time this county stood tall and with piss ant attitudes that will condone this community center to be built will be the downfall of this country


Puh-lease.

Look, I can't stand the Muslim faith. They are far too radical, oppress women's rights, and are responsible for many horrors. But so are people of the Christian faith of which I belong.

The best I can do as an American is to HONOR the sacrifices my forefathers and our current troops are making to defend the freedom that you wish to remove from us.

That also means defending the rights of the crazy people of Westborro Baptist. I hate them as much as the KKK but I hate government trampling of our rights even more.
You can bet that the Muslim world is watching this growing development.
Should it be built, it can be looked at in several ways: Will it be looked at in the terms of a victory over the US? A "slap in the face" to America and those that died on 9/11? To some it will.
However, it will also show that America practices what it preaches. Freedom of religion. ALL religions. Tolerance. And the example that the US is not "out to destroy" Islam, as the radicals preach.
So at least with his celebrating Ramadan and now his support of the mosque can he finally admit that he is a Muslim and that he deceived the American People regarding his true faith?

It's not quite the same as a Baptist attending a Methodist service or even a Church of Christ attending Midnight Mass -- it's a whole other world -- and he is making sure to shove it down American's throats with the defense of "freedom of religion" and "diversity". You can't force everything down our throats and expect us to take it and be happy with it.

As for the center at the WTC site -- it's a matter of respect for the dead and why they are dead as to my reasons the center should not go there. As for the mosque that is just up the street and has been there since the 70s -- so what?
quote:
Originally posted by James Holden:
i just came to start BS- don't pay me no attention.

if anyone in this thread thinks that a mosque should not be built near the former WTC site they should also think that a Christian church should not be built across from the Oklahoma City Federal Building

don't let your brain explode.


That would be the logical conclusion. Wow.

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