Muslim Factions

Still reading. I think I am getting this, but would still like some help.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbollah

Within Sunni, there are the wahhabi or salifist that are stricter than sunni. Really nasty types, most moslims avoid them. They are at the root of al-Queda and the Moslim Brotherhood.

I have ALOT of information now about Iraq culture, additionally alot of information about the religion of Islam from material I received in my recently completed class entitled Military and Culture of Iraq. Bulk of the class was learning about Iraqi and Islamic history.

Sunni: 80% of the worlds Muslims are Sunni. Predominately Sunni nations are Saudi Arabaia, Egypt, Jordan, Syria, and the largest- Indonesia. Al Queda is Sunni. Consider themselves mainstream Muslim. More secular.

Shi'ite: 20% of the worlds Muslims are Shi'ite. Largest group are in Iran, with Iraq a distant second. Hezbollah in Lebanon and with influences in Gaza Strip and West Bank is also Shi'ite. Predominately Persian due to Iraan being Persian. Considered the fringe by Sunni's (and this "fringe" comment was made by a former Sunni Iraqi to our class during one of his lectures to us. He is now a U.S. citizen, and a Christian now).

What happened? Short History of Islam
(based upon handouts by Samer Abdel-Rahman, this is the former Sunni Muslim Iraqi I spoke of earlier who is now living in the U.S.-since 1990- He is working on his PHD at U. of Kansas-Lawrence. While in Iraq, he was a member of Saddam's secret police and spied on Shi'ites. He left Iraq because he, in his own words, wanted to find the meaning of life. He got his Bachelors at the U. of Baghdad, Masters in Philosphy at the U. of Cairo, and now working on his PHD at U. of Kansas. Mother is Egyptian, father a former Colonel in the Iraqi Army).

Short History of Islam:

570- Muhammad born in Mecca
610- Mhammad claims prophetood, establishes Islam belief
615- Persecution of first Muslims by the people of Mecca
622- Hijra (emigrates) Muhammad escapes from Mecca to Medina
623- Muhammad raids carabans and leads military campaigns against the people of Mecca
624-Battle of Badr, establishment of Jihad.

Jihad: When the Lord was revealing to the Angels, "I am with you; so confirm the believers. I shall cast into the unbelievers' hearts terro; so smite above the necks, and smite every finger of them!" Quran, 8-12

630- Conquest of Mecca by Muhammad
632- Death of Muhammad
632- Abu Bakr is the first Caliph
634- Omar is the second Caliph
644- Othman is the third Caliph
656- Ali, Muhammad cousin and son in law is the fourth Caliph. A civil war between Ali and Mu'awiya begins resulting in the division of Islam between Sunni (Mu'awiya, followers of traditional Islam) and Shi'ite (Ali-considered a fringe movement). Ali is buried near Karbala in Iraq, about 100 miles south of Baghdad. All Shi'ites want to be buried there. The cemetary there is HUGE folks...saw it myself.

Differences between Shi'ites (aka Shia' Islam) and Sunnis:

1. Both of them agree on the same Quran (or Koran as commonly seen in Western spellings)

2. Both of them share the same basic principals of Islam.

3. The Shi'ite add a 6th pillar to Islam which is Succession (Imamate) of Ali as the right successor of Muhammad.

4. The Shi'ite believe that alot of Muhammad companions apostate from Islam after his death, therefore they do not accept them as verified transmitter of his tradition.

5. A different interpreative community have been established in ****tism which resulted the creation of parallel and different tradition, tritual, and theology.

6. Since the Shi'ite have been persecuted most of the time in history of Islam, they practiced "al-Taqiya" (conquest) to protect themselves.

7. The believers follow the legalization of the Iman and they do not legalize themselves, somf of the Imans are considered infallible.

632-661- Orthodox Caliphate (Mecca and Medina)
661-750- Omayyad Caliphate (Damascus)
750-1258- Abbasid Caliphate (Baghdad)
1350-1918- The Ottoman Empire (Istanbul)
19114-1918- World War 1, Ottoman Empire/Turkey is defeated by the Allied Powers.

The decay of the Ottoman Empire:
1908- the Committe of Union and Progress (the Young Turks) is formed.
1914- Ottoman Empire enters WW1 as one of the Central Powers
1919-1924- End of the Ottoman Empire
1923- The sultanate is abolished and Turkey is declared a republic.
1924- The office of caliph is abolished.

1920's- break up of Ottoman Empire by the British and French mandates. Trans-Jordan, Iraq, Saudi-Arabaia, Palestine, etc. formed. Drawn by a female British cartographer who draws borders based upon Western poliitcal lines and interest, ignoring culture, religious, etc. differences. THIS IS THE ROOT OF THE PROBLEMS WE HAVE TODAY, in addition to the common sense knowledge of the differences of Islamic sects.

What do Muslims Believe?

1. Belief in God (Allah, Arabic word for God): He is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob-
And I (Joseph) have followed the religion of my fathers, Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob. Quran, 12:38

2. Belief n Angels

3. Belief in Prophets. Say (Oh Muslims): We believe in Allah and that which is revealed unto us adn that which is revealed unto Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the tribes, and that which Moses and Jesus received, and that which the prophets received from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and unto Him we have surrendered. Quran 2:136

4. Belief in Holy Books
-Tawrat- Book of Moses (The Pentateuch)
-Zabur- Book of David (Psalms)
-Injeel- Book of Jesus (Gospel)
-Quran- Book of Muhammad
NOTE: Muslims believe all preceeding revelations to the Quran are corrupted.

5. Belief in the Judgement Day

6. Belief in Fate: God's Will...hence why all Islams say after stating something, generally a deed, God Willing (you see or hear that in alot of Osama bin Ladin's videoes and the like).

What Muslims Need to Do: the Five Pillars of Islam:

1. The Creed: I testify that there is no god except Allah (same God as Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Ishmael, David, Moses, Jesus) and I testify that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah.

2. The Prayer: a prayer ceremony exercised in the mosque or alone 5 times a day. Sunrise, Noon, Afternoon, (2 hours after noon), Sunset, Nighttime (2 hours after sunset).
-Prayer towards the Ka-Ba in Mecca

3. The Fast: This is the month long fast during the month of Ramadan. Muslims do not eat, drink, or have sexual intercourse from sunrise to sunset.

4. Giving: This is considered as a purifying tax. It is a percentage of a Muslim's income given as alms to needy Muslims.

5. The Pilgrimage (al-Hajj): The Pilgrimage to Mecca and Medina.
-Once a year
-At least once a lifetime due to expense
-After it is completed, all the previous sins of the Muslim who perform it are forgiven.

The Quran (Koran)
-Arabic word that means recitation
-holy scripture Muslims believe in
-114 chapters called Surahs
-almost the size of 1/3 of the New Testament in the Bible
-revealed in Arabic
-it is the exact words of Allah. As such, Muslims do not translate it, or could translate it. What are translated are the meanings of the Quran. If you want to read the true Quran, you need to learn Arabic.
-revealed a few versus at a time. Some of it correspond with situations Muslims or Muhammad had.
-There are two types of verses in the Quran. Ones revealed in Mecca, and ones revealed in Madina.
-Not sorted chronologically. The first chapter revealed to Muhammad is chapter 96, not chapter 1.
-Some early verses in the Quran are abrogated by later verses (i.e. the New Testament abrogates the Old Testament).


The above is just some of the thoughts, beliefs, and ideas of Muslims that Samer presented to us in class....

If you need more info, have a question, etc. let me know. I have a reference CD from the class with all our class material on it. I will go research and look it up. Also, the Command and General Staff College libray has TONS of resource material I can research. I do not mind doing this, as it educates me, which I need for when I go back to Iraq in a future date.

quote:

Originally posted by that smart chick:
Also, you have that whole mess where there are Sunni Muslims and they are the largest denomination of Islam. Then there are the Shī‘a Islam, also called Shiite Islam and it is the second largest with about 15% of Muslims worldwide. The Taliban or Al Qaeda (whichever you want to call it) are Sunni's. But, there are more Shiites in Iraq then Sunni's... these are the "insurgents" you hear about on TV. Their way of doing things is generally violent (like suicide bombers). Hezbollah are Shiites... and they are pretty violent, also. (All / most of that came from Wiki and I just boiled it down to the Reader's Digest Condensed Version!)

As REDNEVEDNAV mentioned, Wiki is a great resource for reading up on all these different factions and their role in the current situation in the Middle East. It is very interesting... and sort of scary!!! I think many people today are either afraid to read about it, or don't think that these folks cause that big of a threat. Anyone who thinks that the Taliban or Hezbollah aren't real threats to Americans are sadly in denial...

Insurgents in Iraq are not necesarily Shi'ite. Most of the insurgents in Iraq are Sunni, as they had the power under Saddam (minority in power), but lost it when Saddam was overthown.

The Shi'ite's in Iraq, specifically in the Baghdad area, have large militia's, namely under Moqutada al Sadr (the nasty one you hear so much about). al Sadr is heavily influenced by Iran, creating a thorn in our side. Even I saw the writing on the wall back in 2003 when I was there....

Also, keep this in mind:

Northern Iraq= predominately Kurd. Quiet there, support the U.S. being there, as they appreciate us getting rid of Saddam who gassed and murdered them in droves. Want to establish an independent Kurdistan, but willing to work for the most part with the central Iraqi government. Mosul is the center of influence.

Central Iraq= predominately Sunni (Sunni Triangle). Lost their power influence when Saddam was overthrown. Hence why they are disgruntled. Tribal influence is the norm to them. If you offended someone in the tribe, this can create problems, which can last for decades....the Shi'ites in Baghdad are in the slummy area in East Baghdad, known as Sadr City, formerly known as Saddam City (he named it that to p/o the Shi'ites).

Southern Iraq= predominately Shi'ite. Basra is the center of influence, as are an Najaf, Kut, Nasariyah, and Karbala. Ali is buried in Karbala, and considered the holiest site to Shi'ites. Predominately quiet, although anti-Shi'ite Suni insurgents have bombed mosques in Karbala.

However, an insurgent is one who wants to go against the established government or agreed upon status-quo, so to speak. You have insurgents for various reasons...it is a confusing mess, hence why you can't tell the players without a program overthere..

Serious question here. Why would the US military want or need to educate soldiers BEYOND the basic identity of Muslim fractions?This serves no purpose to our military movement.
Our country should not be there to concern itself with the religous beliefs of the nations peoples. Our country was first given the reasoning of WMDs then liberation of its peoples from Saddams rulership.
Are we now there to decipher which religous beliefs are acceptable according to US standards?

quote:

Originally posted by lookn2it:
Still reading. I think I am getting this, but would still like some help.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Liberation_Organization

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_Israel

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Defense_Forces

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Terrorism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam

quote:

Originally posted by smurph:
Serious question here. Why would the US military want or need to educate soldiers BEYOND the basic identity of Muslim fractions?This serves no purpose to our military movement.
Our country should not be there to concern itself with the religous beliefs of the nations peoples. Our country was first given the reasoning of WMDs then liberation of its peoples from Saddams rulership.
Are we now there to decipher which religous beliefs are acceptable according to US standards?

Good question.

My answer based upon what I have experienced over there, and based upon what I have been learning hear at Command and General Staff College:

One of the major weaknesses identified with U.S. forces in Iraq, and with the U.S. state department in general, is a general lack of knowledge about the Middle East, namely cutlure, religion, language, etc. Since the end of WW2, the U.S. military was geared to fight the Cold War and the evil red Mongrel hoarde crossing the Fulda Gap into Germany; Warsaw Pact versus NATO. Since the 1990's, the military has been in transition, with GWOT accelerating the transition. Iraqi's will respect you more if you have an idea of what their culture is. You can't help a country,or win a war for that matter, if you don't know how it ticks beyond what you read in the news. Western society has a general lack of understaning of Arab/Islamic culture in general. Same goes for Arabs and Persians having a lack of understanding, too. Hence, the big dish served me since I started school here in AUG 2006. During the Cold War, the focus of military training was large armies fighting each other, possibly going nuclear. Right now, that is not the current pressing threat scenario. Additionally, culture of the Soviet Union, Eastern Europe, etc. was taught. Now, the emphasis is Middle East, Arabic, Farsi, etc. The same thing happened during WW2 also...except focus was on Western Europe and Japan.

FYI: the CGSC curriculim was changed so as to get more culture and counter-insurgency studies added. I have to stop at this point, rest I cannot discuss due to OPSEC reasons.

Secondly, Lt. Gen. David Petraeus was announced today as replacing GEN Casey in Iraq as commander there. He is our current CGSC commander. I have personally met him, in fact, all of in CGSC class have shook his hand (so did my wife, during the commander's call all had to attend back in September). He rewrote the Army manual on counterinsurgency, aka COIN. He was the 101st ABN DIV commander during OIF-1, and stayed behind after the division redeployed to help train the seeds that rebuilt the Iraqi army. If anyone can fix some of the problems overthere, it is him. He is VERY smart (PHD from Princeton) and speaks fluent Arabic if I remember correctly.

so speaking the language SHOULD be on top of the list and done so more indepth as it varies from one sect/tribe to another.
Now tell us about the militarys concern over the growing number of enlisted personel who are either (a) Muslim at time of enlistment or (b) converted to the studies/faith after enlistment.

quote:

Originally posted by smurph:
so speaking the language SHOULD be on top of the list and done so more indepth as it varies from one sect/tribe to another.
Now tell us about the militarys concern over the growing number of enlisted personel who are either (a) Muslim at time of enlistment or (b) converted to the studies/faith after enlistment.

1. Now you are following....however, Arabic is the primary language in Iraq....in the 95%+ range...however, Sunni and Shi'ite Muslim are the two sects most common, with culture lines following what part of Iraq you are in. Then, you have the tribal things to deal with, namely a shiek. Plus, boasting and "not losing ones honor, even if it means lying" is part of the culture over there....another nut to crack, if it ever will be cracked.

2. Part 2 you are trying to bring up is completely off topic and I wont' bring it up in this thread. Stay on the subject matter at hand.

quote:

. Part 2 you are trying to bring up is completely off topic and I wont' bring it up in this thread. Stay on the subject matter at hand.

it is as much a part of this thread as who you and your wife shake hands with,so please stay on the topic in the future.

Brentenman, I knew somebody could help with this. Thanks!! I'm beginning to read all the links you sent and studying up. It seems to me until I know more of whats what and whos who I don't really need to comment on the war in depth. There are lots of players and lots of agendas waiting to played out and I'm just struggling to keep up. Thanks and I'll keep you updated on where I'm at with it. I appreciate your help.

quote:

lookn2it

Examine all the information you get with an open mind...and don't believe everything you hear or read. A few months in Iraq doesn't make one an expert.

One thing to keep in mind. Posting on forums is often done to 'score points' ...often times at the expense of the truth.

You are accessing this forum with one of the most powerful information tools known to man...pull up google and go get your information.

Fair enough Mott, I read and reread your post. Because you told me to not to believe what I hear or read. I can only guess that looking up something in google would only be a waste of time,since it is not to be believed. I was wondering however, how do you really feel, without all the missleading information out there?
Gosh, I am really confused now. BTW did I get any points taken away?
Oh I forgot,I'm only joking with ya, you have some points that make me use gray area between my ears. Even If we don't agree at least I can still think for myself.

what i am getting from motts post,if you type in what you are looking for on google you are going to have MANY links to sources of info on that given subject ,not just one person spending a few months over there.

Mott is right the internet is a powerfull tool. one can educate themselves on just about anything.
Also you can get access to universities with religous studies and many of those are happy to email information to you . Some have message forums on many subjects that public are allowed to read.

quote:

Fair enough Mott, I read and reread your post. Because you told me to not to believe what I hear or read.

You need to read it one more time...you left out the word 'EVERYTHING'.

"and don't believe everything you hear or read."

just an 'honest' mistake by you I'm sure...


_______________________________________________

quote:

Because you told me to not to believe what I hear or read.

NO...My post was addressed to 'lookn2it'


Makes me wonder...

is 'lookn2it' and 'themax' the same person?

quote:

A few months in Iraq doesn't make one an expert.

I think a few months in ANY Muslim-oriented society makes one a heck of alot more knowledgeable in the subject. Maybe not an expert, but a heck of alot better than someone who has never been there before.

How can anyone worship a man who took a 6 year old bride and held up countless caravans killing the men and raping the women....

quote:

Originally posted by Reflecting One of the voices i:
How can anyone worship a man who took a 6 year old bride and held up countless caravans killing the men and raping the women....

Why should we worship anyone or anything? ;-)

quote:

Originally posted by Mott The Hoople:

quote:

Fair enough Mott, I read and reread your post. Because you told me to not to believe what I hear or read.

You need to read it one more time...you left out the word 'EVERYTHING'.

"and don't believe everything you hear or read."

just an 'honest' mistake by you I'm sure...


_______________________________________________

quote:

Because you told me to not to believe what I hear or read.

NO...My post was addressed to 'lookn2it'


Makes me wonder...

is 'lookn2it' and 'themax' the same person?

Another lame conspiracy theory on the forum? (Yawn) Mott, no disrespect but I am googling and reading on my own. I wanted help going through the enormous amount of info out there. But I am understanding more, Thanks. And I am not in the habit of taking an opinion of someone else at face value either- whether it be yours or Brentenman's. However, I feel like personal experience is a huge factor in life. You can read all day about how a cup of coffee tastes, but until you actually taste it yourself you don't really know what it is like and whether you love it or hate it. I just thought this forum would be good way to get a little more insight on something I wasn't quite getting through the local media arenas.

quote:

Another lame conspiracy theory on the forum? (Yawn)

Its not like its something new to you...

quote:

lookn2it
New Kid on the Block

Posted 04 January 2007 12:18 PM Hide Post
KS, I totally agree. I caught this earlier and didn't think it sounded like Joy. Her writing voice is nothing like those added little sentences that change a lot of the tone of the whole thing. I've been reading old threads.

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quote:

Mott, no disrespect but I am googling and reading on my own. I wanted help going through the enormous amount of info out there. But I am understanding more, Thanks. And I am not in the habit of taking an opinion of someone else at face value either- whether it be yours or Brentenman's. However, I feel like personal experience is a huge factor in life.

Well, you ashed for my help...I gave it...

I, however, never asked you opinion!

quote:

lookn2it
New Kid on the Block

Posted 04 January 2007 04:00 PM Hide Post
Okay, Mott. Now I am curious...I have been reading some of the links you've posted. Could you explain a little further please. Do you know more about Hezbollah?

__________________________________________________________________________

quote:

You can read all day about how a cup of coffee tastes, but until you actually taste it yourself you don't really know what it is like and whether you love it or hate it.

Forgive me, I don't remember any topic about coffee...apples and oranges yes, but not coffee.


Sure seems funny that themax hasn't replied!!!

Whewwww... I didnt see this debate, Now I am going to make a clean get away before I cause another, LOL...... thank God!!!

quote:

Whewwww... I didnt see this debate, Now I am going to make a clean get away before I cause another, LOL...... thank God!!!

just can't get enough can you KS?

quote:

Originally posted by Mott The Hoople:

quote:

Another lame conspiracy theory on the forum? (Yawn)

Its not like its something new to you...

quote:

lookn2it
New Kid on the Block

Posted 04 January 2007 12:18 PM Hide Post
KS, I totally agree. I caught this earlier and didn't think it sounded like Joy. Her writing voice is nothing like those added little sentences that change a lot of the tone of the whole thing. I've been reading old threads.

_________________________________________________________________________

quote:

Mott, no disrespect but I am googling and reading on my own. I wanted help going through the enormous amount of info out there. But I am understanding more, Thanks. And I am not in the habit of taking an opinion of someone else at face value either- whether it be yours or Brentenman's. However, I feel like personal experience is a huge factor in life.

Well, you ashed for my help...I gave it...

I, however, never asked you opinion!

quote:

lookn2it
New Kid on the Block

Posted 04 January 2007 04:00 PM Hide Post
Okay, Mott. Now I am curious...I have been reading some of the links you've posted. Could you explain a little further please. Do you know more about Hezbollah?

__________________________________________________________________________

quote:

You can read all day about how a cup of coffee tastes, but until you actually taste it yourself you don't really know what it is like and whether you love it or hate it.

Forgive me, I don't remember any topic about coffee...apples and oranges yes, but not coffee.


Sure seems funny that themax hasn't replied!!!

Okay, Mott. I am not trying to spar with you. I just asked for help understanding what I was reading and when you did not reply to that earlier request, I started a forum. The conspiracy theory you quoted me on was not a conspiracy theory but just where someone didn't quote Joy right. Forgive me for asking a question and stepping out of line. It won't happen again. I will be a silent reader and roll my eyes at all the stupid innuendo and specualtion that occurs on these boards.

Hi yall, I've got the krud and can barely read right. Any commet before I feel better would be premature on my part. Nice to be missed,thanks

quote:

Hi yall, I've got the krud and can barely read right. Any commet before I feel better would be premature on my part. Nice to be missed,thanks

quote:

Originally posted by themax:
Hi yall, I've got the krud and can barely read right. Any commet before I feel better would be premature on my part. Nice to be missed,thanks

Awww, poor themax!!! I had that during Christmas week.. it is horrid! Hope you feel better soon!!!

And psssst, Mott, I did make a clean get away on the debate,

Very interesting and enlightening post... I actually learned a lot from it.

And I couldn't completely make a CLEAN get away, it just isnt in me, lol

quote:

Originally posted by Reflecting One of the voices i:
How can anyone worship a man who took a 6 year old bride and held up countless caravans killing the men and raping the women....

Voices,

If you are talking about Mohammed (pbuh), he is not worshipped. He was and is recognized as a prophet only. All praise and worship is for Allah (SWT). As far as the 6-year-old wife, study the era of time and the situation. That was a normal practice for tribes in those times. The killing of men and the raping of women- it is two sides to every story. Try to get to know the story before you try to insinuate an indirect opinion based on hearsay and unfounded circumstances.