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I am suggesting that the victim did NOT "crawl into" the car of her own volition.

I have not accused Mr. van der Sloot or anyone else of anything they have not already admitted, or for which there is not compelling testimony under oath by their Aruban friends and relatives.

Whichever of Mr. van der Sloot's stories (if any) are true, he is the last person known to have seen the victim alive, and he should be compelled--by any means necessary--to tell the truth. Although he is not currently charged with any crime, one questions why. Lying or not, he has confessed to a NUMBER of individual crimes, in ADDITION to the most obvious--perjury.

Incidentally, nuns are OFTEN the victims of sexual abuse. Even if that was not the case, any woman has the right to wear anything she chooses, with regard to any applicable laws, and be safe. Natalee Holloway did not ask to be drugged, did not ask to be raped, did not ask to be sold, did not ask to be murdered, did not ask to be left unconscious and seizing, to die alone on a beach far from home. (I think that covers all Mr. van der Sloot's stories, except the first, false, racist accusation leveled against two innocent guards.)

You should be ashamed of yourselves.
quote:
Originally posted by NYTrooper:


Well you don't see very many nuns getting raped do ya?

Its best to watch what you advertise...some may get the wrong idea.


Being that my Dear Mother WAS a nun for 20 years (before realizing that she had not chosen the path that God wanted her to follow), I do know that, unfortunately, many nuns have been raped.
And BTW, I personally think that women that show too much skin look trashy, but they still do not deserve to be raped.
Vick is not saying that they deserve to be raped. She is saying that some women do not practice what they have (hopefully) been taught to practice.

I have considered that Ms. Holloway was drugged with a little Georgia Homeboy before she left the bar. Still, if she hadn't been drinking, not watching her drink, etc., she would not have been in that position.

The salient point is that Ms. Holloway came from a broken home and had apparently been given complete emancipation by both parents. We have all seen the studies of how the brain does not fully develop until around 20, especially the areas controlling rational thought.

I remember distinctly asking my mother and father if I could go on a non-school trip to New York after I finished high school. I wasn't aware that my parents could lie on the floor and laugh for that length of time.
quote:
Originally posted by NYTrooper:
So yes, I believe if a person advertises sex, and they get it, whether it is right or wrong has no bearing, they still deserved it.


You need therapy. You're walking a thin line here...

quote:
Am I saying rape is justified?...NO.


Except when they "deserved" it???

Like I said before...you need help.
quote:
Originally posted by NYTrooper:
So yes, I believe if a person advertises sex, and they get it, whether it is right or wrong has no bearing, they still deserved it.


You need therapy. You're walking a thin line here...


quote:
Am I saying rape is justified?...NO.


Yes you did...in the above statement.



And you do not understand the meaning of "deserve".
deserve;

1. to merit, be qualified for, or have a claim to (reward, assistance, punishment, etc.) because of actions, qualities, or situation: to deserve exile; to deserve charity; a theory that deserves consideration.


If a womans actions (provocative clothing) provoked someone who otherwise would not have commited rape, then yes she bears some responsibility too.
I think you people are confusing the word "deserve", with...

Justify;

1. to show (an act, claim, statement, etc.) to be just or right: The end does not always justify the means.
2. to defend or uphold as warranted or well-grounded: Don't try to justify his rudeness.
3. Theology. to declare innocent or guiltless; absolve; acquit.
4. Printing. a. to make (a line of type) a desired length by spacing the words and letters, esp. so that full lines in a column have even margins both on the left and on the right.
b. to level and square (a strike).

–verb (used without object) 5. Law. a. to show a satisfactory reason or excuse for something done.
b. to qualify as bail or surety.

6. Printing. (of a line of type) to fit exactly into a desired length.
No one is "provoked" to rape.

No one "deserves" to be raped.

"Rape" doesn't become "sex" based on wardrobe.

Rape is a crime of violence.

I sincerely hope that you are just trying to provoke a reaction; if you actually believe what you've said, you need some serious therapy. I pray that you're not REALLY a law enforcement officer. If you are, I'd very much like the name of your commander.
quote:
Originally posted by NYTrooper:
I think you people are confusing the word "deserve", with...

Justify;

1. to show (an act, claim, statement, etc.) to be just or right: The end does not always justify the means.
2. to defend or uphold as warranted or well-grounded: Don't try to justify his rudeness.
3. Theology. to declare innocent or guiltless; absolve; acquit.
4. Printing. a. to make (a line of type) a desired length by spacing the words and letters, esp. so that full lines in a column have even margins both on the left and on the right.
b. to level and square (a strike).

–verb (used without object) 5. Law. a. to show a satisfactory reason or excuse for something done.
b. to qualify as bail or surety.

6. Printing. (of a line of type) to fit exactly into a desired length.


So, What is your point?
quote:
No one is "provoked" to rape.

No one "deserves" to be raped.

"Rape" doesn't become "sex" based on wardrobe.

Rape is a crime of violence.

I sincerely hope that you are just trying to provoke a reaction; if you actually believe what you've said, you need some serious therapy. I pray that you're not REALLY a law enforcement officer. If you are, I'd very much like the name of your commander.




Sounds good on paper beeb...but its not reality.
Posted 28 November 2008 06:24 PM Hide Post
I am suggesting that the victim did NOT "crawl into" the car of her own volition.


According to the testimony of her own girlfriends she was rooming with that is exactly what she did - in spite of them trying to convince her to come back to the hotel with them. I figure if the three boys had been dragging her into the car her friends would've mentioned it in the testimony.

And yes, like it or not, you are responsible for what persona you project.
I don't think any of her friends have "testified," and I'm not sure where they might have, since there has been no trial.

Perhaps you could take a moment and reread their witness statements. Please wake me up when you find the word "crawl." I believe you'll also find that Natalee and her friends all thought they were headed back to the same place at the same time.

There was apparently precious little time beyond that, as the three men kidnapping her have all described her as fading in and out of consciousness, shortly after leaving Carlos & Charlie's.

(To NYTrooper--And the paper that sounds good on is called the legal code. Please read it.)
I'll look it up when I get a minute. I've followed the thing from the start in the Birmingham News. I had no choice it was all you heard about down here. How, exactly, do YOU get into a car? Crawl, hop in, slide in, whatever - the woman "entered" the car with three men she'd known less than a week. Testified? Maybe not the right word - told the police? Yep. Maybe you should've read the newspaper instead of just listening to her mother on a talk show.

But, then, maybe you have more experience crawling into cars with total strangers drunk than I do.

Let me appall you a bit more - I'm bored with the whole Holloway thing. The bottom line is walk like a duck, quack like a duck - it's a duck and that applies to the men and the woman. And - lie down with dogs get up with fleas. There are missing and murdered women and children all over the Birmingham area that were actually ABDUCTED and murdered that have gotten minimal news coverage - there's nothing special about this woman.

You want to say she bears no responsibility for this happening to her. Maybe not but she was out drinking, cavorting with strange men, leaving in a car with them alone. And she's missing. I'm thinking if she'd been sober, gone back with her friends to the hotel that would not have happened. But I may be wrong - they may have tracked her down and grabbed her as she and her group went to breakfast the next morning.
"But, then, maybe you have more experience crawling into cars with total strangers drunk than I do."

We call this an ad hominem attack; it's what losers do when they can't win on the strength of their argument. Ducks and fleas? Cliches are just further evidence of the same. Other victims? Red herrings; ditto.

I believe that all victims of crime deserve to have law enforcement and the judiciary offering their very best efforts to see the case solved and the guilty punished. Aruba or Birmingham makes no difference to me; my beliefs don't change with geography.

As you are both bored with the case and clearly unfamiliar with its facts, why exactly are you here?
quote:
Originally posted by UNA LIONS FAN:
quote:
Originally posted by NYTrooper:
Hmmm...what is the whole purpose of "showing skin"?


I have no idea! But, I do know that it is very hard for women that don't like to "show some skin" to shop these days, because that's about all they'll find on the shelves!


Yep. Try finding something conservative for a even a little girl to wear these days. Does that make pedophilia okay too, because some little girl is wearing a short shirt or a top that shows her tummy? Did Jon Benet Ramsey DESERVE what she got because of the way she dressed in pagents? Absurd.
quote:
Originally posted by SaltyDog:
Did Jon Benet Ramsey DESERVE what she got because of the way she dressed in pagents? Absurd.


Salty, You must not understand "the language" either! According to some, She did not DESERVE what she got, but the sexual assault that may have taken place at the time of her murder was JUSTIFIED because of the way that her mother chose to dress her.

Absurd, I agree.
quote:
Yep. Try finding something conservative for a even a little girl to wear these days. Does that make pedophilia okay too, because some little girl is wearing a short shirt or a top that shows her tummy? Did Jon Benet Ramsey DESERVE what she got because of the way she dressed in pagents? Absurd.



Its "absurd" for you to suggest that proper clothing cannot be found for children.
Beeb, you sayin' you ain't never heard that ol' expression crawl into a car. Crawl into that backseat, Aint Bess, there's room.

How about, If you kids crawl into our bed again tonight, you're dead meat.

As far as using old expressions, somethings may be trite, but they've been said so much because they're true.

As to Natatie, maybe no one knows what happened, but if she hadn't been out drinking, I'm 99.9% sure she would be alive today. Just like my old next door neighbor from Killen years ago, if he hadn't gone out pheasant hunting, for better or worse, he wouldn't have shot himself. Fact of life.
quote:
Originally posted by NYTrooper:
quote:
but the sexual assault that may have taken place


"may have" ? I think you just revealed yourself.


quote:
the sexual assault that may have taken place at the time of her murder


"HUN"--- Jon Benet was obviously sexually assaulted. Although I would assume that it took place at the time of the murder, that has not been proven.
quote:
Yep. Try finding something conservative for a even a little girl to wear these days. Does that make pedophilia okay too, because some little girl is wearing a short shirt or a top that shows her tummy? Did Jon Benet Ramsey DESERVE what she got because of the way she dressed in pagents? Absurd.



Of course not. But I have a five year old granddaughter with lots and lots of friends. Their mothers, every one of them, dress them very well - not ONE of the girls looks like hoochie mamas. Even their dance recital outfits were not inappropriate. I sat through a three hour recital at the BJCC watching girls from age 3 up to 17 - not one from this dance school looked nasty. It can be done.

Are you trying to say that Jon Benet was dressed appropriately for a six year old? Her parents, if they did not kill her, at the very least had a warped idea of what a child should look like.

There are men (I'm thinking they're men?) on this forum that have said over and over again that wearing suggestive clothing makes them think the woman is looking for sex. And THESE men are not pedophiles or would be rapists(at least not all of them, I don't think). They're being honest. And we all know that there are rapists and pedophiles in the world. If many normal men think this, can you not imagine what the would be rapists and molesters think of scantily clad females?

It is certainly wrong for a male assault a woman ever. But it's up to whomever stands to lose the most to take the most precautions. Muggers shouldn't lurk in dark alleys waiting to mug people either, but they do. So a prudent person does not walk down a dark alley. Robbers shouldn't hang around ATM's to rob a person either, but they do. Rapists shouldn't attack women, but they do. People with STD's shouldn't have sex with people without taking precautions or telling their partners but they do.

That is why the person who could get pregnant has to protect herself - she is the one who stands to suffer the most consequences - forget who SHOULD be equally responsible - that won't help a bit when the stick turns blue. That is why a woman should be very careful who she crawls into the car with - she's the one most likely to be the victim, etc. Life is not what the advice columnist in "Cosmopolitan" or "Glamour" tells you. You have to dress, act, and behave in ways that keep you as safe as possible from the lowest of the low and you should teach your children to do the same.

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