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"There are men (I'm thinking they're men?) on this forum that have said over and over again that wearing suggestive clothing makes them think the woman is looking for sex. And THESE men are not pedophiles or would be rapists(at least not all of them, I don't think). They're being honest. And we all know that there are rapists and pedophiles in the world. If many normal men think this, can you not imagine what the would be rapists and molesters think of scantily clad females?"

In Judeo-Christian western civilization there is nothing "normal" about the idea that women do not ALWAYS have the right to say no, nor is it EVER "normal" to consider children as sexual objects.

I believe in fundamentalist Islam, however, it is the rape victim who is most likely to be held accountable for the attack.

As I am an American citizen with zero intention of adopting either the burqa or the BS that comes with it, I'm going to stick with my belief that the perpetrators of crime should be brought to justice and the victims protected from any further assault.
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Originally posted by NYTrooper:
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ShoalsLover--So you are one of those that thinks it is a woman's fault if she is raped while wearing a short skirt or other clothing that reveals too much skin?


Well you don't see very many nuns getting raped do ya?

Its best to watch what you advertise...some may get the wrong idea.
I think I'm going to vomit. I hope you aren't really in law enforcement. Nuns do get raped.

08/25/2008 INDIA Orissa: Hindu extremists burn one nun alive, rape another by Nirmala Carvalho Bubaneshwar (AsiaNews)

11/20/2008 Baliguda SDJM Dolagobinda Barik rejected the appeal of the nun, allegedly raped at K Nuagaon in the strife-torn Kandhamal district on August 25, to conduct TI parade in New Delhi and ordered that she should appear personally for TI parade at Baliguda on November 24 next.

New York Times - October 26, 1981
A judge ordered yesterday that one of two men charged with the rape and mutilation of a 31-year-old nun be held without bail and be placed under a suicide watch.

The news is filled with stories of nuns being raped in Somalia, Bosnia, Tibet, Africa, and yes - here in the USA. Rape isn't about sex, you idiot, it's about power. It doesn't matter if a woman is wearing her bra and panties and enough make up to make Tammy Faye Bakker say "that's a little much". NO means NO and RAPE is NEVER the VICTIMS fault.
...and just what kind of apparel is "suggestive" and what exactly is it "suggesting"? Is there something that I can wear that would really make a rational person think I was looking for some random person to have sex with me? Is there some articles of clothing that when worn, take away a woman's right to say NO?

And... are there similar articles of clothing for men?

It's 2008, about to be 2009 and we are still blaming women for mistakes made by MEN who can't control themselves and act like animals. Buck-naked, spread eagle, drunk, with a tube of KY in her hand - NO MEANS NO.
And you are ABSOLUTELY RIGHT. No means No. My boys have been taught that, my husband believes that and so does my brother. But our daughters have nothing to fear from men like that. They have to fear men who don't think like that. Why tempt fate? There's no taking it back. There's no "oopsie, I guess I should not have gotten into that car with those guys" and no "well, goshdarn, I didn't MEAN for that pervert to think I "wanted it" when I wore my miniskirt, tank top with nipples poking through and tons of make up".

And, in addition to that, every person in the world does not have a right to see your nipples, your butt, or any other private area. It's not just the "hot" guy at the club you want to attract that's looking - it's the creep who's lurking in the parking lot that's looking, too.

And, yes, nuns get raped. So do men. But check out the news...how many got killed and dumped on the side of the road last weekend? Or the weekend before that? How many have been missing for weeks after leaving with someone they thought was ok? None in the Birmingham area. However, there were two women killed this past weekend and dumped in the Leeds/Moody area after leaving a club with men they knew "a little" and one woman is still missing after leaving work at a grocery store, for pete's sake. (Authorities are looking for a "person of interest" that she knew "slightly" and had apparently been seen talking to her in the store.

And I haven't had time to read the paper today. There's probably more this morning.
Vick your point "My boys have been taught that, my husband believes that and so does my brother. But our daughters have nothing to fear from men like that." is well taken. That is why I firmly believe that we need to spend LESS resources on teaching our daughters to keep their calves covered and how to analyze the perverted thoughts of every man they come in contact with and spend MORE resources teaching our sons that NO means NO and women are not sexual objects, no matter what they are wearing.

I don't know Natalee Hollaway or any of her people. I don't know what happened down in Aruba. But I have been a teenage girl and I know that sometimes a little too much Cuervo can make a young lady stupid. I also know that there are a TON of things a young man can put in a stupid girl's drink to make her do things she'd never do otherwise. Regardless, Miss Hollaway is by all accounts dead. Did she bring it on herself? Did she ask for it? Is she responsible for whatever horrible thing happened to her that night? Really, is death a proper punishment for one too many shots of tequila with an attractive young man at a bar? How many women have done the very same thing... do we really want to teach our daughters that the wages for wearing the wrong clothes, too much lipstick, and having one too many drinks with a cute guy are rape and death???
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Originally posted by NYTrooper:
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Yep. Try finding something conservative for a even a little girl to wear these days. Does that make pedophilia okay too, because some little girl is wearing a short shirt or a top that shows her tummy? Did Jon Benet Ramsey DESERVE what she got because of the way she dressed in pagents? Absurd.



Its "absurd" for you to suggest that proper clothing cannot be found for children.


I didn't say they couldn't be found, but show me a girl between the ages of 5 and 12 and I'll show you someone who wants to dress like the Bratz, *****cat Dolls, etc. Yes, parents ought to be stricter about what their daughters wear, but I think they give in to avoid fighting and lots of tears. And if you've been in any girls departments lately you know what I mean. "Hoochie Mama" is mostly what you'll see on the racks. That's what designers are pushing on little girls, the same fashions as teenaged girls wear, just smaller. Things are a little different here in the Bible Belt, that's true. My point is that even if a girl or woman is walking around totally nude, it doesn't mean she's asking for sex or deserves to be forced to have it against her wishes.
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How many women have done the very same thing... do we really want to teach our daughters that the wages for wearing the wrong clothes, too much lipstick, and having one too many drinks with a cute guy are rape and death???



You better be teaching them its a very good possibility. Why in the world a parent would want their daughter dressing like a **** and drinking is beyond me.
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I didn't say they couldn't be found, but show me a girl between the ages of 5 and 12 and I'll show you someone who wants to dress like the Bratz, *****cat Dolls, etc.



Yes you did say that. And this may be the case in your household...not mine.


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My point is that even if a girl or woman is walking around totally nude, it doesn't mean she's asking for sex or deserves to be forced to have it against her wishes.


She may not be asking for it, but thats for sure not the message she will be sending. And yes she would be deserving of it,. It would not be justified though.
Here we are again with your deserving and/or justified rant. Rape is a crime. It does not matter how the victim is dressed at the time of the assault. Many women have been raped by their own husbands or boyfriends and many children and teenagers have been raped by family members.
So, would it be justified or deserved if, for example, the uncle raped his teenage niece, because she had a low-cut sundress on at the family reunion?
Nope. It would not be deserved or justified. However, if he raped her "BECAUSE she had a low cut sundress on at the family reunion" (and that's YOUR reason for the rape, not mine) then he would not have raped her if she had NOT had on a low cut sundress at the family reunion.

There are nuts out there that probably would think she was asking for it and rape her. That's my point. Why on earth dress that way? What's the point of showing your hooties at a family reunion? Why would you want to do that?

This is not a perfect world. It's a world where, like it or not, women are often victims of plain old crazy mean men. You wouldn't send your daughter down a dark alley alone. You wouldn't send her to a deserted bank atm alone. Because you know what could happen. She shouldn't be attacked for getting lunch money from the atm, or taking a shortcut home. But it happens. So we teach our daughters (and sons) to not take the alley route, not to pick up hitchhikers, don't accept rides from strangers if they have car trouble. Why on earth aren't they taught not to show their mammaries and privates to strangers on the street and in the bars?

Do you really want some 35 year old pervie looking at your 17 year old daughter's cleavage, nipples, outline of her buttocks and thinking what he'd like to do to her?
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Originally posted by NYTrooper:
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I didn't say they couldn't be found, but show me a girl between the ages of 5 and 12 and I'll show you someone who wants to dress like the Bratz, *****cat Dolls, etc.



Yes you did say that. And this may be the case in your household...not mine.


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My point is that even if a girl or woman is walking around totally nude, it doesn't mean she's asking for sex or deserves to be forced to have it against her wishes.


She may not be asking for it, but thats for sure not the message she will be sending. And yes she would be deserving of it,. It would not be justified though.


No, Trooper, I didn't. Quote me please. never mind, I'll quote myself. I said "try finding". I have only boys, so I don't have to worry about how my daughters dress or behave, and I don't have to worry about whether or not small minded people are going to blame them should some idiot take it upon himself to take advantage of them. Also, the reason I know the woes of trying to fight a young girl who wants to wear skimpy clothes is because I fussed at my best frend about five years ago for the way she was letting her teenaged daughter dress and she invited me to go shopping with her. That was a real eye opener. Yes, the conservative clothes could be found, but they were harder to find. And when we did find them, she said she could buy them but they'd just hang unworn in the closet. BTW, the clothing her daughter was wearing five years ago was tame compared to the ones some kids wear now. Your comment about my household was rude and uncalled for. To suggest you are a better parent than I am is ridiculous and makes you sound all puffed up like a little banty rooster. And, lastly, do you have girls? Get ready. They'll buck your authority eventually. Count on it. Big Grin
Last edited by SaltyDog
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Originally posted by vick13:
Nope. It would not be deserved or justified. However, if he raped her "BECAUSE she had a low cut sundress on at the family reunion" (and that's YOUR reason for the rape, not mine) then he would not have raped her if she had NOT had on a low cut sundress at the family reunion.



BECAUSE or while wearing, its all the same.

It's a shame that my Dear Mother didn't keep some of her old nun attire. I could wear that everyday...to make sure that I would not be a victim of rape. Roll Eyes
Surely your dear mother has told you not to flash your goodies at strange men because it could make them think you're interested in letting them play with the goodies.

And surely, somebody somewhere has told you that you don't have to show your goodies to all and sundry in order to be considered attractive. And, surely, you don't think that the only options open to you are hoochie clothes or a nun's habit.
okay i have read this entire thread with some interest.
Now i am going to add my 2 cents. its my opnion,and I AM entitled to have it. i do not ask anyone to agree or disagree.
WHY do women wear seductive clothes? To ATTRACT attention,and when they dress seductively it IS advertising their bodies! Period.
As for Natalie Halloway,I do think she was sold for sex trade,,I also think she is most likely dead by now.
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No, Trooper, I didn't. Quote me please. never mind, I'll quote myself. I said "try finding". I have only boys, so I don't have to worry about how my daughters dress or behave, and I don't have to worry about whether or not small minded people are going to blame them should some idiot take it upon himself to take advantage of them. Also, the reason I know the woes of trying to fight a young girl who wants to wear skimpy clothes is because I fussed at my best frend about five years ago for the way she was letting her teenaged daughter dress and she invited me to go shopping with her. That was a real eye opener. Yes, the conservative clothes could be found, but they were harder to find. And when we did find them, she said she could buy them but they'd just hang unworn in the closet. BTW, the clothing her daughter was wearing five years ago was tame compared to the ones some kids wear now. Your comment about my household was rude and uncalled for. To suggest you are a better parent than I am is ridiculous and makes you sound all puffed up like a little banty rooster. And, lastly, do you have girls? Get ready. They'll buck your authority eventually. Count on it.



I have two daughters 30 and 23. Two grandaughters 5 and 1. Dont try to tell me about children, been there, done that. And dont try to catagorize ALL girls according to your experiences. My daughters were raised right...thats the reason I made my comment about your household.

And if your statement of try finding decent clothing does not indicate there is not any, please tell me what you meant.
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Originally posted by NYTrooper:
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No, Trooper, I didn't. Quote me please. never mind, I'll quote myself. I said "try finding". I have only boys, so I don't have to worry about how my daughters dress or behave, and I don't have to worry about whether or not small minded people are going to blame them should some idiot take it upon himself to take advantage of them. Also, the reason I know the woes of trying to fight a young girl who wants to wear skimpy clothes is because I fussed at my best frend about five years ago for the way she was letting her teenaged daughter dress and she invited me to go shopping with her. That was a real eye opener. Yes, the conservative clothes could be found, but they were harder to find. And when we did find them, she said she could buy them but they'd just hang unworn in the closet. BTW, the clothing her daughter was wearing five years ago was tame compared to the ones some kids wear now. Your comment about my household was rude and uncalled for. To suggest you are a better parent than I am is ridiculous and makes you sound all puffed up like a little banty rooster. And, lastly, do you have girls? Get ready. They'll buck your authority eventually. Count on it.



I have two daughters 30 and 23. Two grandaughters 5 and 1. Dont try to tell me about children, been there, done that. And dont try to catagorize ALL girls according to your experiences. My daughters were raised right...thats the reason I made my comment about your household.

And if your statement of try finding decent clothing does not indicate there is not any, please tell me what you meant.


I have raised one of my children to fruition as well, Trooper. He is almost 30. Navy boy. Nuke. Raised right, loves his Mama. You bet I'm proud of him and he's a wonderful person. Been there, done that too . I also have a teenaged boy and I am here to tell you that it was a lot eaiser raising younguns in the 80's and 90's than it is now. We had something then that we don't have now. REAL censorship on television and the right to discipline our kids. I guess you slid by as did I on having kids who didn't rebel. Congrats on that. As far as what "try finding" means, I have already told you what it meant and what I meant when I said it. You are entitled to your interpretation and no matter what I say I meant you will argue that it meant impossible to find, unfindable, non exsistent, etc., so I will not give you anything else to argue about. The whole "justified" and "deserved" thing was enough for me. Stick a fork in me, darlin'. I'm done. Roll Eyes
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I have raised one of my sons to fruition as well, Trooper. He is almost 30. Been there, done that too . I also have a teenaged boy and I am here to tell you that it was a lot eaiser raising younguns in the 80's and 90's than it is now. We had something then that we don't have now. REAL censorship on television and the right to discipline our kids. I guess you slid by as did I on having kids who didn't rebel. Congrats on that. As far as what "try finding" means, I have already told you what it meant and what I meant when I said it. You are entitled to your interpretation and no matter what I say I meant you will argue that it meant impossible to find, unfindable, non exsistent, etc., so I will not give you anything else to argue about. The whole "justified" and "deserved" thing was enough for me. Stick a fork in me, darlin'. I'm done.



In the future just try being truthful in your endeavours and you wont find yourself in these situations... Roll Eyes Wink
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Originally posted by NYTrooper:
TSC...you don't believe anyone "deserves" to be raped. But...do you believe anyone "deserves" to be killed?
I believe in the death penalty, yes. And if someone raped my little girl, you are darn straight that I'd kill them with my own hands. And then be totally justified and deserving of the death penalty.
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Originally posted by NYTrooper:

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My point is that even if a girl or woman is walking around totally nude, it doesn't mean she's asking for sex or deserves to be forced to have it against her wishes.


She may not be asking for it, but thats for sure not the message she will be sending. And yes she would be deserving of it,. It would not be justified though.


Thank you for posting this. I am the father of an 18 year old who went off to college this year. I will send her a link to this so she can get insight in to how the mind of a potential rapist works. Your comment is a good example of that kind of sick thought process. Please get counseling.
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Originally posted by smurph:
okay i have read this entire thread with some interest.
Now i am going to add my 2 cents. its my opnion,and I AM entitled to have it. i do not ask anyone to agree or disagree.
WHY do women wear seductive clothes? To ATTRACT attention,and when they dress seductively it IS advertising their bodies! Period.
As for Natalie Halloway,I do think she was sold for sex trade,,I also think she is most likely dead by now.


This is not an argument, Smurph....more of an addendum.

Yes-we women dress "seductive" to attract men (or other women, if that's your thing). We ARE advertising in a way. However, we reserve the right to choose who gets to see our "goodies" up close & personal. If you (any man) are not up to par-then move along. You can't just take what you want in assumption that the girl wants it too.
firedancer, i am a WOMAN and i have been in the world probably more years than you. The mind of men works on a different level sexually than women do,that has already been proven by science.Men in fact have a much greater number of sexual thoughts per minute than women do,now add alcohol,and or drugs to this . If you do not believe it try a little exercise.Try dressing nice,but a bit to the conservative side and then take a walk into a night establishment,then the next night put on a very revealing ,seductive outfit and return to the same places and then report back to us what was said and done both nights.
Share with us the type of attention,type comments you recieve both nights. Tell us about the type of looks and comments you will be getting on the second night from FRIENDS of YOUR OWN GROUP.

Now before you come back with some cutsey comment ,remember not everyman in the establishment you walk into is your everyday John Doe with good raisings,morals and basic respect for fellow humans,you got your crazies in the crowd as well. They do not wear signs around their neck for you to identify them. It is those out there which women are ALSO exposing themselves to when they are advertising their bodies.
quote:
Thank you for posting this. I am the father of an 18 year old who went off to college this year. I will send her a link to this so she can get insight in to how the mind of a potential rapist works. Your comment is a good example of that kind of sick thought process. Please get counseling.



Huston...congratulations on joining the forum and making your very first post. Roll Eyes
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firedancer, i am a WOMAN and i have been in the world probably more years than you. The mind of men works on a different level sexually than women do,that has already been proven by science.Men in fact have a much greater number of sexual thoughts per minute than women do,now add alcohol,and or drugs to this . If you do not believe it try a little exercise.Try dressing nice,but a bit to the conservative side and then take a walk into a night establishment,then the next night put on a very revealing ,seductive outfit and return to the same places and then report back to us what was said and done both nights.
Share with us the type of attention,type comments you recieve both nights. Tell us about the type of looks and comments you will be getting on the second night from FRIENDS of YOUR OWN GROUP.

Now before you come back with some cutsey comment ,remember not everyman in the establishment you walk into is your everyday John Doe with good raisings,morals and basic respect for fellow humans,you got your crazies in the crowd as well. They do not wear signs around their neck for you to identify them. It is those out there which women are ALSO exposing themselves to when they are advertising their bodies.




Well said. Whether rape is right or wrong doesn't matter after the fact. If a person advertises, then they must be prepared to accept the outcome.
Thank you, smurph. And trooper. I simply cannot understand what is making these people so dense. NOBODY is saying rape is right. Nobody. Nobody is saying they'd run out and rape a half naked drunken woman. They ARE saying there are certainly men who WOULD so therefore the woman bears some responsibility for her own safety and shouldn't knowingly show her privates to strangers. Why anybody would want to do that is beyond me.

And why a FATHER of an 18 year old in college would be ok with their daughter doing that is just plain creepy. Most fathers certainly DO NOT want to think their daughters are running around in revealing clothing to attract men. If my husband made that kind of remark about our daughter I'd watch him closely.
"Whether rape is right or wrong doesn't matter after the fact. If a person advertises, then they must be prepared to accept the outcome."

1. No one advertises for rape.

2. Both our religious and our legal codes are based on the idea that right and wrong DO matter, both before and after the fact.

3. Again, Vick, you are suggesting behavior on the part of Natalee Holloway unsupported by any statements, save those of the prime suspects. Stop slandering the victim.

In none of the photos I have seen has Miss Holloway been dressed inappropriately. In fact, her wardrobe looks quite modest for a beach vacation. No one in her right mind would describe her as "half-naked" or flashing her "privates."

Which one of Mr. van der Sloot's versions of her demise is it that you think she "deserved"?
Good Lord, you two are a couple of sick puppies!
quote:
Originally posted by smurph:
firedancer, i am a WOMAN and i have been in the world probably more years than you. The mind of men works on a different level sexually than women do,that has already been proven by science.Men in fact have a much greater number of sexual thoughts per minute than women do,now add alcohol,and or drugs to this . If you do not believe it try a little exercise.Try dressing nice,but a bit to the conservative side and then take a walk into a night establishment,then the next night put on a very revealing ,seductive outfit and return to the same places and then report back to us what was said and done both nights.
Share with us the type of attention,type comments you recieve both nights. Tell us about the type of looks and comments you will be getting on the second night from FRIENDS of YOUR OWN GROUP.

Now before you come back with some cutsey comment ,remember not everyman in the establishment you walk into is your everyday John Doe with good raisings,morals and basic respect for fellow humans,you got your crazies in the crowd as well. They do not wear signs around their neck for you to identify them. It is those out there which women are ALSO exposing themselves to when they are advertising their bodies.

I wasn't being cute or argumentative. I used the word "you" to refer to "you - the person checking out the skimpy outfit". I used "me" to refer to the person wearing said outfit. I am agreeing with what you are saying. Women wear revealing outfits when they are on the prowl for a man. All I am saying is that they have the right to refuse any unwanted sexual advances.

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