Skip to main content

Compensation for labor is a major factor in a globally competitive marketplace. Companies that either have to pay wages high enough to provide workers with the resources to care for their families health needs, or provide insurance to pay for those needs, are at a financial disadvantage in any nation that does not provide at least a minimal plan to cover those costs. Industrialized nations, except the USA, provide some kind of guarantee for employee medical costs. Many of those countries also provide for the coverage of unemployed persons as well.

Virtually all protection provided in the United States is offered by private insurance companies. These plans are funded by premiums from the insured, or their employers. In the case of a small business, it is common to find the employer providing no coverage, and paying wages insufficient for the employee to provide for his own coverage. In some cases, the prevailing wage for the industry involved is to low, and in others, the employee considers health coverage an unnecessary expense. The end result is the same. Millions of working Americans are not covered by any insurance plan, or are dependent on insurance provided by the employer. If the employment is terminated, the insurance vanishes as soon as the former employee’s premium is not paid. As a result, millions of US residents are without any kind of secure insurance coverage until they are destitute, totally without resources or assets to pay medical costs. Those people are then covered by a hodgepodge of State and local plans.

Larger companies, and corporations, with resources to provide the insurance coverages do, in most cases, carry the burden, but the problem of the employee who departs from those companies remains the same as any person providing for his own health care. The cost of this insurance is reflected in the price of goods or services produced by the company, large or small. The company raises prices, or the employees are uninsured. It is a situation that damages the competitive position of American Corporations who employ insured workers. Either wages cover insurance premiums, or revenue of the company does, or there is no insurance of any kind.

A second problem faces both the insurance companies and those who have insurance coverage. This problem is subtle. It is the person with a chronic condition that can be controlled by medical intervention or the provider for such a person. That person will seek insurance as a first line of defense for his assets. Healthy young people frequently avoid health insurance, seeing it as unnecessary. The result here is high premiums. Since the insurance company must have enough revenue to cover the cost of claims, it is necessary to charge high premiums to the people who choose to be insured. In the meantime, the healthy uninsured are not burdened at all. You cannot choose to be healthy. You are either well or unwell. The vast majority of people are well, and many are not insured. They are the people who would oppose being taxed to pay for medical care. They are also the people who become the cause for high rates of unpaid medical costs. Accidents, and unexpected illness put them in the position of taking, without paying for, medical services. For them the gamble is disabling disease, loss of all assets, and destitution before the government steps in to keep them alive. Those unpaid medical bills are also a factor into high insurance premiums. If the providers of medical service are not paid, they cease to exist. The insured, to keep the hospital doors open, pay additional premiums to cover the costs incurred, and not paid, by the uninsured.

A single payer national health insurance program addresses all of these factors, in a fair and equitable manner. The choice of what to insure against or leave up to private choice is not easy, but it can be made. Even universal catastrophic coverage would be an improvement, providing coverage for those who become unable to work from day one would protect those individuals from destitution. Providing coverage through childhood would be an improvement. It would take the burden of insuring children off the employee with no children or family to care for. Federal insurance of people over a specific age, say 50, would also be an improvement. It would drastically lower the cost of claims for private insurance companies. Of course, this leaves everyone between age 18 and 49 in an insurance pool of healthy, vigorous (possibly pregnant) people. Insurance for the cost of pregnancy could be made available under a federal plan, and that would have tremendous benefit. This mixed bag of programs could make a huge difference, but they leave the group between 18 and 49 as involuntary payers of medical costs for everyone else, and still responsible for their own medical costs. Fortunately that does not have to be.

Using the models provided by other industrialized nations, it is possible to craft a single payer universal health care plan that is financed from the general revenues of the country, and is a lighter burden on both the providers of health services and their clients. Virtually every nation in Europe and, with the exception of the USA, North America provides universal health care. Each of these plans have some problems, and each has unique advantages. Using them as examples, the USA is positioned to become the world’s leader in providing for the health care of her residents.

There is one other point to be made here. While we battle heroically over the fate of millions of undocumented aliens, the health care issue languishes in the back rooms. While we beat our chests about the need to drive these foreigners from our streets, the Iraqi resistance continues to kill and be killed and we can't seem to get the flock out of there.

It is about time we started picking our fights more carefully.
"The essence of all religions is one. Only their approaches are different." ~Mahatma Gandhi
Original Post

Replies sorted oldest to newest

You want the same bureaucrats you rail against to be in charge of your health and life? Check out the euthansia policies in UK, Sweden, and Holland.

Dutch elderly carry cards stating, "Please do not euthanize me!"

Your life then becomes a rationed government commodity.

Please Canada, UK, Germany, Sweden or France. Just do not to Europe during a 103 degree heat wave. They lost 35,000 elderly to heat prostation.
quote:
Unless your are flat broke and on welfare you are already in the 33 percent tax bracket and getting little more than harrasment for your money.



Actually, with my kid deductions, mortgage interest, 401k, tithe, flexible spending accounts, college credits for my oldest, charities, and all other deductions I only pay about 5% federal tax and maybe another 4-5% for State tax. Twenty years from now I will be in the high tax bracket. Even if I was there now, I certainly would not volunteer to give my money away to an already out of control money eating monster.
Hillarycare. The compassion of the DMV, the efficiency of the Post Office, and the stability of Social Security.

I'll take my chances spending my own money on my own health care.

Mexico has national health care. Let the 85% of illegal aliens here from Mexico go back and take advantage of their own country's health care plan.

DF
What those of you who oppose some kind of nationalized health care fail to realize is that we already have it! No insurance?- go to the emergency room at virtually any hospital and get free health care (the most expensive kind) . Don't worry, the cost is passed on to those of us who do have health insurance, or picked up by those of us who pay taxes.
I have asked this question before, no one wants to answer it: How do you solve that problem?
Seems to me the key word in "single payer" is 'payer'. That is, everyone pays into the pool.
quote:
Originally posted by excelman:
What those of you who oppose some kind of nationalized health care fail to realize is that we already have it! No insurance?- go to the emergency room at virtually any hospital and get free health care (the most expensive kind) . Don't worry, the cost is passed on to those of us who do have health insurance, or picked up by those of us who pay taxes.
I have asked this question before, no one wants to answer it: How do you solve that problem?
Seems to me the key word in "single payer" is 'payer'. That is, everyone pays into the pool.


There is no more chance of everybody "paying into a pool" than there is of requiring everybody to obtain and keep health insurance from the provider of their choice. The ones that support and insure themselves now would be the ones carrying the load under socialized health care. By mandating nationalized (read that socialized)health care, you are just adding more governmental bureaucracy and red tape which will cause the price of health care to soar, and the quality of care to diminish.
The solution isn't one of nationalized health care or single bill payer. Its ensuring eveyone gets care. Numbers from 38 to 50 million without insurance have been bandied about.

Trouble is, analysis of the numbers needs to be done. From 8 to 10 million are those who are so wealthy, they don't need insurance. They can care for themselves. About 8 million are young people who can afford insurance, but feel they don't need it. I've had health insurance for 45 years, but didn't need it for nearly 30 years, except for a checkup every 5 years or so.

Its the remaining delta that should be concentrated on. Provide for them, and the emergency room overflow and extremely expensive care will come down. In this case, the 10 percent solution is the best option.
Why do we have heath insurance that covers the cost of routine medical care? Our car insurance does not cover oil changes and tune ups. The health care system in this country is so back ass wards that people do not even know if they are paying because they are ill or paying because they are healthy. A total overhaul is long over due.
quote:
Originally posted by Sassy Kims:
quote:
Originally posted by excelman:
What those of you who oppose some kind of nationalized health care fail to realize is that we already have it! No insurance?- go to the emergency room at virtually any hospital and get free health care (the most expensive kind) . Don't worry, the cost is passed on to those of us who do have health insurance, or picked up by those of us who pay taxes.
I have asked this question before, no one wants to answer it: How do you solve that problem?
Seems to me the key word in "single payer" is 'payer'. That is, everyone pays into the pool.


There is no more chance of everybody "paying into a pool" than there is of requiring everybody to obtain and keep health insurance from the provider of their choice. The ones that support and insure themselves now would be the ones carrying the load under socialized health care. By mandating nationalized (read that socialized)health care, you are just adding more governmental bureaucracy and red tape which will cause the price of health care to soar, and the quality of care to diminish.

Gota disagree (as usual). Our government has a way of being able to get us to contribute to a "pool" for different things.
For example, pools I contribute to, that I resent:
the mess in Iraq
bridges to nowhere
farm subsidaries for dead people
people receiving free medical care at emergency rooms
deployment of our National Guard to the Mexican border with orders to withdraw if confronted.
subsiditys to oil companies who screw me at the pump.
purchasing mobile homes for people during Katrina, only to have them rot in Arkansas.
the legal bill for Judge Roy Moore for trying to defend his rock in Montgomery( we in Ala are paying the tab for his prosicution, and his defense.

In fact, a nationalized system may lower overall cost. Check out what Medicare pays vs. what doctors/hospitals charge.

______________________________________________
Nash:
What did people do before health insurance? What ever it was, we should go back to that.
___________________________________________-

Had a great great uncle who doctored before insurance- seems he wound up with a lot of chickens, maby a ham. Recken these modern day doctors would take that? Big Grin
___________________________________________

I don't have the solution to all the un-insured either. I just know that what we have now is only working well for the "well to do".
One reason our manufactured goods are not competative with overseas manufactures , is the added cost of medical care that is NOT considered in the price of goods manufactured in most of the rest of the world, becausse they have some form of Universal Health care.

Maybe, one solution for the un-insured would be what President Clinton recommended, grants for people to get their medical license, but they have to work for some number of years in public service, ie: free clinics, as payback.

I might say, that my interest in this is not predicated on personal needs. I have good insurance- its expensive, but I got it. I just believe our country may be heading into looking more like the 3rd world with the wealthy having everything and the rest having nothing. Not taking care of basic health requirements for all our countrymen is one way to move in that direction.
quote:
Originally posted by excelman:

Gota disagree (as usual). Our government has a way of being able to get us to contribute to a "pool" for different things.
For example, pools I contribute to, that I resent:
the mess in Iraq
bridges to nowhere
farm subsidaries for dead people
people receiving free medical care at emergency rooms
deployment of our National Guard to the Mexican border with orders to withdraw if confronted.
subsiditys to oil companies who screw me at the pump.
purchasing mobile homes for people during Katrina, only to have them rot in Arkansas.
the legal bill for Judge Roy Moore for trying to defend his rock in Montgomery( we in Ala are paying the tab for his prosicution, and his defense.

In fact, a nationalized system may lower overall cost. Check out what Medicare pays vs. what doctors/hospitals charge.


And after giving all those examples of things you resent contributing to, you're willing to give them another shot at your pocketbook by volunteering to have your taxes raise for socialized health care? I got some ocean front property in Montana I'd like to sell you at a good price.

I am in agreement that several of the things you've mentioned need a quick cutting off. Free medical care. Farm subsidies. Any subsidies to oil companies (I actually don't know of any, but I would be against them). Judge Roy Moore ought to be billed for his "rock" defense, and put to work picking trash up of I-65 until it's paid for. I don't know what bridges to nowhere you're talking about, but would probably be against them too.

I think everybody should stand on their own two feet and decide if they want health insurance for their own selves. It should NOT be a government mandated program. Too many mandated things already, just like most of the list you posted above.
Sassy,
It would be GREAT if everybody took care of their own medical needs. The point that I am trying to get across is THEY DON'T. When they don't , you and I both help pay thru our taxes or our use of the medical facilities as built in cost.
The illegal alians in California have just about broken the hospitals there giving out free health care.
The only other option that I can see, is for hospitals to require either payment up front, or insurance to anyone using the emergency room. If they don't have either, let em die. Is that what we as a society really want?
The current problems with the health care delivery system is very complex. It can't be solved by bumper sticker slogans, like let everybody take care of themselves. Good thought, but will never happen.


BTW, the bridge to nowhere I referred to is in Alaska, and came to represent the entire "pork barrell" bill produced by congress and signed by Bush about 3 years ago.
FYI, the oil companies have been getting huge subsidys in the form of tax relief, plus, they have not paid the royalities on the oil they have pumped off of your land and mine since the Bush adm. They get the gold mine, we get the shaft!

PS: in addition I also resent the laws requiring helmets on motorcycle riders and seat belts in my car-- just for the record.
Excelman,

Why should you and I subsidize ANYBODY'S health care? Why should the government pay for any individual's medical treatment using my taxes, or yours?

A few years ago, I got into a situation where I had no medical insurance and ended up with a fairly substantial bill. I paid it off myself, $50 and $100 at a time...even though it took about 6 years total, I paid it off completely and fully. What makes other people any better than me that they can receive treatment and NOT HAVE TO PAY FOR IT.

Illegal aliens should find a sign at the health department door, " no citizenship, no treatment". There should be a bus to transport them back to the nearest border and drop them off, so they can get free health care from the country where they are citizens...not here. Non citizens who don't have health insurance, or proof of financial ability to pay, should receive ONLY life saving emergency medical care, and an immediate ride out of the country. Let me repeat that..."AN IMMEDIATE RIDE OUT OF THE COUNTRY".

Any US Citizen who meets the qualifications (age, disability, etc.)should receive medical care through Medicare or Medicaid. The restrictions on these two plans should be strictly enforced. The people who are on these two plans should be required to meet their own portion of the costs. Medicare and Medicaid were never intended to be a complete source of payment for health care, just like SS was never intended to be a total retirement plan.

Personal responsibility will take a bullet in the back of the head if socialized medicine is instituted. People should be responsible for their own care and upkeep, and not depend on the Government for it.
Sigh.

I've read a great deal of ranting, but exceptionally little substance.

How many of you actually have any idea about how medical insurance actually works from the provider side as opposed to the patient side?

Simply being private does not guarantee low-cost or efficiency. Every insurance company has it's own set of rules and quirks to deal with. Dealing with all that costs money which raises medical costs.

The insurance companies push as much as possible onto the providers, especially if you have primary and secondary insurance which are not the same!

Here are some advantages of single payer:

1. A single set of rules to follow for filing claims

2. Since all physicians would be providers, you can chould whomever you wished to see wherever in the country you happened to be.

3. Greatly expanded buying power.

4. A great potential for standardized electronic medical records. Currently this is just a dream.
quote:
Originally posted by Sassy Kims:
Excelman,

Why should you and I subsidize ANYBODY'S health care? Why should the government pay for any individual's medical treatment using my taxes, or yours?

A few years ago, I got into a situation where I had no medical insurance and ended up with a fairly substantial bill. I paid it off myself, $50 and $100 at a time...even though it took about 6 years total, I paid it off completely and fully. What makes other people any better than me that they can receive treatment and NOT HAVE TO PAY FOR IT.

Illegal aliens should find a sign at the health department door, " no citizenship, no treatment". There should be a bus to transport them back to the nearest border and drop them off, so they can get free health care from the country where they are citizens...not here. Non citizens who don't have health insurance, or proof of financial ability to pay, should receive ONLY life saving emergency medical care, and an immediate ride out of the country. Let me repeat that..."AN IMMEDIATE RIDE OUT OF THE COUNTRY".

Any US Citizen who meets the qualifications (age, disability, etc.)should receive medical care through Medicare or Medicaid. The restrictions on these two plans should be strictly enforced. The people who are on these two plans should be required to meet their own portion of the costs. Medicare and Medicaid were never intended to be a complete source of payment for health care, just like SS was never intended to be a total retirement plan.

Personal responsibility will take a bullet in the back of the head if socialized medicine is instituted. People should be responsible for their own care and upkeep, and not depend on the Government for it.


YOu obviously live in another universe, where EVERYBODY does what they should.
quote:
Originally posted by excelman:
What those of you who oppose some kind of nationalized health care fail to realize is that we already have it! No insurance?- go to the emergency room at virtually any hospital and get free health care (the most expensive kind) .


Fine if you have a runny nose or broken limb but try to get brain surgery, colon screening, free drugs, an MRI or long term care. It doesn't happen.

Emergency Room care isn't "socialized" care. It's compassionate care . . . Usually.
if a smoker won't quit when a doctor tells them that they WILL die from them, they will not seek insurance when they are told it will be in their best interest. there are just those who don't think rationally. a pack a day smoker could get health insurance with their $120 a month habit, and be better off in 2 ways, but I don't see that happening. if folks don't want to take care of themselves in the first place, why the hell should I be forced to take care of them after the fact?
lets say one of those same said folks that have abused their body and has no insurance for themselves suddenly become ill and are rushed to the emergency room in a critical condition. Are you saying they are to be refused treatment?
And what about the family man that lost his job,still searching for work but that 30 day lapse time for healthcare from his old job is done and his child falls out of a tree playing ,you gonna refuse that child medical care too? Where is the line on those that "natural selection" is put into place? And who is going to be the "decider" on that huh?
quote:
Originally posted by smurph:
lets say one of those same said folks that have abused their body and has no insurance for themselves suddenly become ill and are rushed to the emergency room in a critical condition. Are you saying they are to be refused treatment?
And what about the family man that lost his job,still searching for work but that 30 day lapse time for healthcare from his old job is done and his child falls out of a tree playing ,you gonna refuse that child medical care too? Where is the line on those that "natural selection" is put into place? And who is going to be the "decider" on that huh?


The self abuser...should have to pay cash up front or provide insurance.

The falling kid...the parent should be allowed to make payments to the hospital.

I have had to pay major medical bills when I got caught between jobs and insurance. I paid them off $50 and $100 a month for the several years it took me to pay them off. I didn't try to duck my debts, or go crying to the Government, asking them to pay my debts. These examples can do the same, instead of costing everybody else an outrageous fortune for their bad decisisons. It's not natural selection on these examples....it's personal responsibility.

The "decider" is the individual needing health care...the abuser made a conscious decision to abuse himself. The parent(s) brought the responsibility of raising and providing for a child upon themselves, which can be quite expensive, but at the same time vastly rewarding.
quote:
Originally posted by smurph:
lets say one of those same said folks that have abused their body and has no insurance for themselves suddenly become ill and are rushed to the emergency room in a critical condition. Are you saying they are to be refused treatment?
And what about the family man that lost his job,still searching for work but that 30 day lapse time for healthcare from his old job is done and his child falls out of a tree playing ,you gonna refuse that child medical care too? Where is the line on those that "natural selection" is put into place? And who is going to be the "decider" on that huh?


The person who abuses their body and has no insurance does not have a RIGHT to free heathcare, in my opinion. I think they should pay for it or do without. I never said anyone should be be "refused" treatment, but they shouldn't be given treatment on someone else's dime, either.

The family man who lost his job should have had COBRA. If he didn't and the kid broke a leg, then he's going to have to pay the bill somehow. Maybe he'll have to pawn his car title, I don't know. And I don't care how he does it, as long as he does it.

The "line" is drawn at my wallet. You can have all the healthcare you need, as long as I am not paying for it. The "decider" are those who seek care.
both answers to my questions are rambling nonsense,with no reality thought to either.
Proof to my statement? (before this is asked,and slammed of course) HOW is the personel in the ER or on the ambulance crew going to have knowledge of the personal habits of the person abusing their body, or the insurance status of the family with the injured child? It is AFTER the fact of care in emergency situations these things are known to the facility.
So once again i am going to ask,,where are those lines drawn AND WHO is it to decide and draw those lines? becasue as it is right now,,,euphansia is ILLEGAL, and so is medical neglict,which is exacly what has been implied here in this thread by the insane presentaiton of "natural selection"
Can you read? Quote from above:
quote:
I never said anyone should be be "refused" treatment, but they shouldn't be given treatment on someone else's dime, either.


No one said refuse people emergency care. What I said was, people should pay for their medical care. If it isn't life threatening, then a person should either have to produce an insurance card, credit card, or cash before they get treatment. If it is life threatening then give the treatment. If after they are treated they refuse to pay, then they should have liens put on their property, garnishments placed on their paychecks, and / or arrested for theft. Stealing is stealing and it doesn't matter if it is shoplifting from Wal-Mart or stealing medical care from ECM.
quote:
Originally posted by smurph:
both answers to my questions are rambling nonsense,with no reality thought to either.
Proof to my statement? (before this is asked,and slammed of course) HOW is the personel in the ER or on the ambulance crew going to have knowledge of the personal habits of the person abusing their body, or the insurance status of the family with the injured child? It is AFTER the fact of care in emergency situations these things are known to the facility.
So once again i am going to ask,,where are those lines drawn AND WHO is it to decide and draw those lines? becasue as it is right now,,,euphansia is ILLEGAL, and so is medical neglict,which is exacly what has been implied here in this thread by the insane presentaiton of "natural selection"


A person who has abused his/her body is readily apparent to medical personnel, and to most people in general.

The insurance status of the kid is a irrelevant point. Treat the kid, charge the parent. If the parent has insurance, fine. If not, they've got a bill to pay. Plain and simple. The public as a whole should not have to pay the debts of the individual.

The line is (sigh, once again) drawn with the person receiving the medical care, or the parent/guardian of minors receiving care. They, and they alone should be responsible for the debts they have incurred from receiving medical treatment. If they have insurance, wonderful. If not, time to go to work and take personal responsibility for their debts.

BTW, your statement about "rambling" nonsense is only because points were made that YOU don't agree with...which if applied to your comments would lead me to believe that you are rambling until you find a sycophantic reply.
both of you have totally overlooked the situation in REALITY. I already *know* what a parent "should" be responsible and do to cover his childs bill, I already *know* the risks and taken and damage done by the self abuser. DUH!
So talk big all ya want you still have not answered the questions as i presented them I did not ask what ether patient SHOULD DO. Natural selection was brought up as an insane solution to the issue. I simply wanted to know who it is and HOW those recieving the Natural Selection method of life care would be decided upon

Add Reply

Post

Untitled Document
×
×
×
×
Link copied to your clipboard.
×