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Mr. Al. I like your way of talking. You seem to have a understanding of both Mr. Bill and Mr. Deep. You see, I have always said that my faith is not based on something that is to be proved or not proved, and I don't understand why everyone tries to use the same book to make their own case, and to deny the case of their opponents. Is faith a game for people to choose up sides and keep score? I still haven't in all my years decided whether or not God made evolution. I guess because it doesn't really matter to me. But what does matter is the Truth, which will be revealed ultimately when we leave this earth. Mr. DF thinks it will be lights out. Mr. Gray says he can prove that we will all go flying away in the air. And you say not to worry that everything will somehow work out. I like your attitude, but I respectfully disagree. There is only one way to Heaven, and everything else leads to Hell. Sorry, but that's what I believe. Do you know anything about faith healing? I've got a case of bursitis in my elbow from hoeing in my garden that could surely use a faith healer.
Al,

Mankind hasn't been here a million years. Maybe a quarter of that.

Progress in mankind is not measured by great religions, but by great scientific and technological achievements.

quote:
This world is quivering upon the brink of an amazing age of spiritual awakening.
We're in it now. We are finally coming around to the obvious reality that we make up religions to suit us. We have reluctantly come to the point where we know that gods are not necessary for us to belong to the family of mankind.

You're welcome. I do try.


DF
quote:
Originally posted by Punkin:
Mr. Al. I like your way of talking. You seem to have a understanding of both Mr. Bill and Mr. Deep. You see, I have always said that my faith is not based on something that is to be proved or not proved, and I don't understand why everyone tries to use the same book to make their own case, and to deny the case of their opponents. Is faith a game for people to choose up sides and keep score? I still haven't in all my years decided whether or not God made evolution. I guess because it doesn't really matter to me. But what does matter is the Truth, which will be revealed ultimately when we leave this earth. Mr. DF thinks it will be lights out. Mr. Gray says he can prove that we will all go flying away in the air. And you say not to worry that everything will somehow work out. I like your attitude, but I respectfully disagree. There is only one way to Heaven, and everything else leads to Hell. Sorry, but that's what I believe. Do you know anything about faith healing? I've got a case of bursitis in my elbow from hoeing in my garden that could surely use a faith healer.


If you will place your hand upon the computer screen and send me a check for $100.00 bucks you will be healed.........heheheh
quote:
Science has not and cannot prove how the world began. Scientists believe that all matter came from something so infinitesimal it's hard to wrap your mind around. Since that time, the entire universe has been expanding. What scientists don't know about the world/universe FAR outweighs what they DO know. If humans have been around for so many millions of years, as claimed by science, why have they made an impact on only the last several thousand years? Some questions will only be answered indefinitely when we die. For me, I'd rather err on the side of faith in Jesus Christ, than to err as an atheist. If I'm wrong, no worries for ANYBODY. If I'm right, no worries for me. As for others, . . .

Tomme, have you ever read a book on science? A magazine?

Scientists are the first to admit that most of the universe is unknown to us, and likely unknowable.

Once again, humans have been around for about a quarter million years, not "millions".

And I will err, if erring I am, on the side of honesty.

DF
Hi Punkin!

Thank you for your kind words. I was afraid that they might be covered up so I PM’d them to you.

Punkin,
You are welcome to believe whatever theology you want. Believe, if you will, that those who do not follow the “Christian way” are doomed to hell. It’s OK, it will get you where you are going, where we are all going.

Remember that what is really important is the attitude of your soul. God is love, and a love dominated personality unerringly gravitates towards god.

Remember that you master, Jesus, taught the brotherhood of man under the fatherhood of god. Live your life as a reflection of his teachings and much good will come from it. After all, if administered intelligently, love is more catching than hate!

That is really what is important here.

Al
All of the formulized religions of the world are valid, but only in as much as they bring their individual believers closer to the eternal.

Look Al you are probably the nicest Guy in the world but this is a load of crap, you are telling a man that believes in nothing but himself to go ahead and believe in everything. What I hear you saying is that "none of it really exist so just pick you out something comfortable and wear the appropriate garb ,just don't rock the boat.I have a lot more respect for DF and his empty cosmos than your pantheon.....Jesus said I am the way the truth light and no man comes to the Father except by me.
quote:
All of the formulized religions of the world are valid, but only in as much as they bring their individual believers closer to the eternal.

K-O,

Thanks for the respect.

What makes you think anyone deserves eternity? There is no evidence for it. It's a lovely thought, but nothing more. Unless you think on it closely. At some point, enough is enough.

It is only prudent to live this life as if it is the only one we will experience. There is every reason to be such citizens that make life for our grandchildren as agreeable as possible.

My Cosmos is not empty. It is marvelous, likely filled with life, and only with clear minds will our species explore it in at atmosphere of truth.


DF
quote:
Look Al you are probably the nicest Guy in the world but this is a load of crap, you are telling a man that believes in nothing but himself to go ahead and believe in everything. What I hear you saying is that "none of it really exist so just pick you out something comfortable and wear the appropriate garb ,just don't rock the boat.I have a lot more respect for DF and his empty cosmos than your pantheon.....Jesus said I am the way the truth light and no man comes to the Father except by me.


Hi Ka-O:
Do you know what is amazing?

If I was talking to a fundamentalist Muslim and I said that all religions are valid to the extent that they bring man closer to god, that individual would say the EXACT same thing you just did (minus the Jesus part).

Such is the sad state of religion on the world today.

You know that YOUR religion is correct, because you have had a valid religious experience. And yet the Muslim is equally convinced because he/she ALSO has had a valid religious experience.

So who is correct?

Both of you, and neither of you. Both of you are correct in that you have had a valid religious experience, and have, in some way, drawn closer to god. But neither of you is correct in your blanket statement that only your religion is the true religion. In fact, such viewpoints are a travesty against god. Don’t you realize, can you not open your mind to the fact that god is a god of an entire universe of universes? That this world is but one small planet in a universe of Law, Justice and Love? That all men are brothers? That god is the father of all mankind? This is the actual message which Jesus preached to his followers. It is so sad that so few of his professed “flock” actually hear the Master’s voice.

Ka-O:
I too am a follower of Jesus. But I am a follower who has opened his heart to all mankind, not just those who share the same theology. I am bigger than this little world, are you?

Religion is not something you get out of a book. It is the personal experience of learning to know god. And god is the same god of all religions.

It’s a big concept. But it is a big universe too. Are you big enough to live in an entire univers of love, or will you continue to hide your head in the comfortable sands of dogma. Will you reach for eternity or will you hide behind the robes of others? There are many here who are spiritually lazy, preferring their religion second handed, taken sitting down from an established authority... rather than standing, and reaching into their hearts and finding god.
quote:
Originally posted by DeepFat:
If it's a mental function, I'm curious. If it's emotional, I pity you.

DF after reading some of your post I find myself wondering ,are you searching for an answer? A lot of the blustering and proselytizing sounds like a man with all the answers but I feel a totally opposite vibe (I know you are going the tee off on that one but it can't be helped).I have some thing to say to you looking to awaken your spirit, well not me exactly but ........John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

You quote some scripture as though you are some what learned in the Word.Read the book of John again if you haven't in awhile.
Like the quotation says ,If you don't feel God's presence , maybe he hasn't called your name yet.Or he called it long ago with out an answer.

DF
quote:
Originally posted by alwilliams767:
quote:
Look Al you are probably the nicest Guy in the world but this is a load of crap, you are telling a man that believes in nothing but himself to go ahead and believe in everything. What I hear you saying is that "none of it really exist so just pick you out something comfortable and wear the appropriate garb ,just don't rock the boat.I have a lot more respect for DF and his empty cosmos than your pantheon.....Jesus said I am the way the truth light and no man comes to the Father except by me.


Hi Ka-O:
Do you know what is amazing?

If I was talking to a fundamentalist Muslim and I said that all religions are valid to the extent that they bring man closer to god, that individual would say the EXACT same thing you just did (minus the Jesus part).

Such is the sad state of religion on the world today.

You know that YOUR religion is correct, because you have had a valid religious experience. And yet the Muslim is equally convinced because he/she ALSO has had a valid religious experience.

So who is correct?

Both of you, and neither of you. Both of you are correct in that you have had a valid religious experience, and have, in some way, drawn closer to god. But neither of you is correct in your blanket statement that only your religion is the true religion. In fact, such viewpoints are a travesty against god. Don’t you realize, can you not open your mind to the fact that god is a god of an entire universe of universes? That this world is but one small planet in a universe of Law, Justice and Love? That all men are brothers? That god is the father of all mankind? This is the actual message which Jesus preached to his followers. It is so sad that so few of his professed “flock” actually hear the Master’s voice.

Ka-O:
I too am a follower of Jesus. But I am a follower who has opened his heart to all mankind, not just those who share the same theology. I am bigger than this little world, are you?

Religion is not something you get out of a book. It is the personal experience of learning to know god. And god is the same god of all religions.

It’s a big concept. But it is a big universe too. Are you big enough to live in an entire univers of love, or will you continue to hide your head in the comfortable sands of dogma. Will you reach for eternity or will you hide behind the robes of others? There are many here who are spiritually lazy, preferring their religion second handed, taken sitting down from an established authority... rather than standing, and reaching into their hearts and finding god.


Judas was a follower of Jesus also and he probably thought he had a genuine religious experience until he burst asunder on the ground!Truly all men are brothers God is our Father but I believe in Vertical Theology in that,Truths came down from above ,Iron clad unchangeable truths ,with out following these one cannot attain heaven.This is in opposition to Horizontal Theology ,paraphrased as,lets all the members vote and that way decide right and wrong.This is tough to live by.......if your system were real I would pick out something fashionable like Shintoism ,or Amerind Anamism what difference would it make?It sir is not true and is the highway to hell!
quote:
Originally posted by ka-0-hub:
quote:
Originally posted by DeepFat:
If it's a mental function, I'm curious. If it's emotional, I pity you.

DF after reading some of your post I find myself wondering ,are you searching for an answer? A lot of the blustering and proselytizing sounds like a man with all the answers but I feel a totally opposite vibe (I know you are going the tee off on that one but it can't be helped).I have some thing to say to you looking to awaken your spirit, well not me exactly but ........John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

You quote some scripture as though you are some what learned in the Word.Read the book of John again if you haven't in awhile.
Like the quotation says ,If you don't feel God's presence , maybe he hasn't called your name yet.Or he called it long ago with out an answer.

DF


KO,

Please place your comments outside the quote box. It's quite confusing and difficult to read when you do not.

I am not searching for an "answer" in the sense you mean, my searching is for truth through evidence. Without evidence, "truth" simply becomes opinion.

Yes, I can quote some scripture, but only to demonstrate the conflicting nature of it. It is NOT evidence. It is the primitive scribblings of men.

DF
My original post to this thread stated that the first chapter of the first book of the Bible is false. Demonstrably false.

No one has given me any reason to believe otherwise.

I have seen vague speculation, bible verses which I disregard, and arguments of unfounded faith.

The scientific natural history of the universe is a scientific question. Science has what comes closest to the answers, religion and superstition do not. This thread supports my conclusion.

About 14 billion years ago, the universe came into being. About 5 billion years ago, the Earth was formed. Within a billion and a half years, or so, life began here. Several hundreds of millions of years ago, complex life formed on land.

About a quarter million years ago, creatures vaguely resembling us evolved. A few tens of thousands of years ago, we consolidated into who we are now.

This is the natural history of mankind, as we relate to the Universe. No gods are necessary. None are desired. They only get in the way.

We humans are pretty special. We have now recognized the universe, for the first time in our history ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c64Aia4XE1Y ). Perhaps we owe it to the universe and our species to perpetuate ourselves, and learn more. Religion is antithetical to such cooperation and advancement. Left to religion, we would still be arguing the properties of the Firmament.

Knowledge and science will continue to advance until the religious zealots of Afghanistan and Alabama destroy us.

DF
quote:
Originally posted by DeepFat:
My original post to this thread stated that the first chapter of the first book of the Bible is false. Demonstrably false. No one has given me any reason to believe otherwise. DF

Hi Deep,

One cannot demonstrate to a blind person that a sunset is beautiful. One cannot demonstate to a deaf person that Handel's Messiah is awe inspiring.

By the same token, a spiritually blind and deaf person cannot know the glory of God and His Creation.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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OK Ka-O:
Why am I going to hell?
Is it because I love god as a father, and see all mankind as brothers?

Is it because I follow the actual life teachings of Jesus, living a life as a reflection of the fatherhood of god and the brotherhood of man?

Or is it because I see god as greater than all the world’s religions combined. As an entity who created a universe of Law, Love and Justice?

Am I going to hell because I refuse to distinguish between men as to their various theologies?

Or is it because I see those theologies as incomplete shadows of the ultimate reality, which is god?

Tell me Ka-O.

Al
Hi Deep:

Very interesting:

I start off my response to you with this statement:

“Values are just as real as physical things, except on a different and higher spiritual level. Where the physical adventures of science end, the value lure of true religion begins.”

And yet you completely ignore this statement and seize upon a statement buried in a lower paragraph as your beginning saying:
“Mankind hasn't been here a million years. Maybe a quarter of that.”

Then you proceed as usual with your well-rehearsed attacks upon obvious shortcomings of the evolutionary religions .

So let’s back up.

I repeat:
Values are just as real as physical things, except on a different and higher spiritual level. Where the physical adventures of science end, the value lure of true religion begins.

Deep:
What is goodness? What are VALUES, for that matter? Are they real, or just mental phantasms made up to please the erring mind of the delusional religionist? Do you believe in values? And if so, WHY? After all, they cannot be measured, weighed or quantified. Therefore they must not exist!

Thank you:
Al
Al,

Religion is not necessary to have values. We all have values. They differ, but values are a universal experience. They are real. Emotions are scientifically demonstrable responses to stimuli.

Reason is a value. It has no weight nor mass, but it has a concept and manifestation.

Because we agree that concepts are real does not mean all concepts are real. The Loch Ness Monster is a concept, but there is no monster. Because you can conceive of something does not mean you have to believe that concept.

What makes a concept valid, as opposed to invalid? Evidence. There is good evidence for evolution and optics. There is bad or insufficient evidence for cold fusion and phrenology.

There is no evidence for god.

DF
quote:
Originally posted by zippadeedoodah:
If one assumes intelligent design, that requires an intelligent designer. Duh.

If one does NOT imply intelligence in the design; rather, the manipulations of an environment, then only probability is required.


Just as expected one of the coyote pack jumps at any attempt to converse with DF???? what is the fixation???...
quote:
Originally posted by bustamove63:
quote:
Originally posted by zippadeedoodah:
Answer the question, moron. This is an open forum. If you can't answer the question, then go back to logic school.



Is it a queer fixation?......moron....plezzz


Buster,

You do realize this forum is for adults? Based on your posts, I put you at about 13 years old.

You cannot maintain a discussion, you have no coherent arguments, and display no education whatever.


What you can do is constantly remind us of your obsession with homosexuality, in the fashion of a frustrated 13 year old. It's boring. Stop bringing up the subject here. If you want to discuss your curiosity about homosexuality, start another thread in the "Misc." forum, and good luck.

We're trying to have an adult conversation here, and you're in the way.

DF
quote:
Originally posted by zippadeedoodah:
If one assumes intelligent design, that requires an intelligent designer. Duh.

If one does NOT imply intelligence in the design; rather, the manipulations of an environment, then only probability is required.


But a heck of a lot of probability with odds at billions to one, repeatedly.
Stretches the limits of any reasonable outcome.
Going from primordial soup to a human being without any outside direction is probably a billion raised to a billion odds.

Nope, each little step would be billions to one, multiplied by billions of steps each at a billion to one then somehow, somewhere, along this infinite path of infinite probabilities, you get a living sentient being with independent thought.
All by random chance. Don't think so.
L,

You obviously don't understand evolution.

Yes, to throw thousands of dice, and expect them to come up all at once with the formula for modern life is unreasonable.

But that's not the way biology works. Life takes things one step at a time, over billions of years. Life experiments with this mutation and that mutation, keeping the beneficial ones and discarding the bad ones.

Life is the difference. A constant string of life that goes back 4 billion years or so.

I regret that you have been exposed to the lie that life is either nothing or fully developed, modern life. There have been millions of intermediary steps, over billions of years.

Please study biology before you cast judgment on it.

DF
Theories of life origins in the universe are so numerous that they might number in the billions! OK, that was a joke.

Seriously, our universe is around 12 to 15 billion years old, and in that time there has been plenty of opportunity for life to sprout in countless parts of it. Deep is quite correct. Life did not just spring into existence. Instead it more or less sneaked up, and before you knew it, it was there.

Simple amino acids are routinely found in meteorites from within our solar system. And, somebody correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that amino acids have been identified in the dust from a comet tail that was intercepted by a NASA spacecraft, and returned to earth. Amino acids are the building blocks of RNA, a simple molecule that under the right circumstances has the uncanny ability to make copies of itself. DNA is built of a double helix of RNA. An over-simplification, and not exactly accurately, but one can see that given enough time, a few hundred million years should be enough, DNA molecules could keep making themselves out of that nifty RNA until one of them actually started to make copies of itself too! What do you have then? I suggest life.

And don't get me started on pan spermia. That increases the chances of life arising by exponential proportions. It would be easier to postulate that life should arise in our universe, rather the contrary.

It's nice to believe that God picked up some dust and made Adam. Believe it you want to, and who knows, you might be onto something. I don't think so, but I respect your beliefs. Just don't try to get all sciency on me. You won't win.
quote:
Originally posted by DeepFat:
L,

You obviously don't understand evolution.

Yes, to throw thousands of dice, and expect them to come up all at once with the formula for modern life is unreasonable.

But that's not the way biology works. Life takes things one step at a time, over billions of years. Life experiments with this mutation and that mutation, keeping the beneficial ones and discarding the bad ones.

Life is the difference. A constant string of life that goes back 4 billion years or so.

I regret that you have been exposed to the lie that life is either nothing or fully developed, modern life. There have been millions of intermediary steps, over billions of years.

Please study biology before you cast judgment on it.

DF

LOL, I have a double major in Professional Biology and General Chemistry.

You sure are uppity lately, DF.
quote:
Originally posted by LMM:

LOL, I have a double major in Professional Biology and General Chemistry.

You sure are uppity lately, DF.


Nicely done, I guess if you try to get all sciency with me, YOU might have a chance. Not much, but a chance nonetheless... Smiler

I am curious though, how does a formally trained biologist reconcile the vast scientific evidence for Darwinian Evolution with Creationism? And please don't start with 'Theistic Evolution'. That's a non-starter, as the Bible leaves no room for it.

Looking forward to your reply.
Last edited by Max Kuster
Reply to the first, unedited.

Simple for me.

Why does evidence of evolution discount a Creator?
The lines in Genesis do follow the same path as scientific evolution.
The only difference is MAN made directly from earth. That is where you either have faith or you do not.

If man did evolve from the same line as other primates, then we should have other similar homosapiens with speech capabilities as our own. There really should be living representatives here and now. There is more than one type of gorilla, one type of chimp, one type of lemur......................

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