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I infer that you do not believe in a literal translation of the Bible. Intelligent design with a twist. I do not ascribe to your logic, as homo sapiens does share roughly 98% of his DNA with chimps. Indeed, he shares 75 to 80 percent of his DNA with daffodils! Don't let your religion get in the way of your scientific analysis. By saying that the universe 'could have' evolved one way, and that God made Man out of the dust of the earth is not a very informed assumption. Wishing it were so, does not make for a plausible argument.

I would be more engaged in the posit if someone were to espouse Theistic Evolution rather than the hybrid theory, as I understand you to put forward.

Now before I go on, let me pause and ask you to be clear. Are my inferences correct? Or have I misconstrued what you are saying?

A final note and then I am finished, at least for the moment. I am not an atheist, but an agnostic. I do not understand the nature of the higher power that is responsible for my existence. However, in my limited intellect, it is beyond me to conclude with certainty that a higher power does not exist.
quote:
Originally posted by Max Kuster:
I am not an atheist, but an agnostic. I do not understand the nature of the higher power that is responsible for my existence. However, in my limited intellect, it is beyond me to conclude with certainty that a higher power does not exist.


Max,

I'm an atheist but do not conclude "with certainty" that gods do not exist. I can only conclude that they probably do not with some degree of certainty.

I do not believe agnosticism is an appropriate stance even though I once considered myself one. I now see agnosticism as "atheism with training wheels." You either believe gods exist or you do not. Which is it?
Max,
First you tell me I can't use the Theistic Evolution idea, then you tell me my 'hybrid' theory is worse than that.

You got one thing right, I do not take everything in the Bible as literal. It was not meant to be so. It also was not written as a scientific or historical document.

Yes, we share dna with chimps, and as far as that goes with sea slugs. I have not had a conversation with one lately, have you?
All those bio chemists can replicate amino acids, but not one has created a living self replicating entity.
You can pour all the necessary chemicals into a vat in the exact proportions but I don't think Darwin, Einstein or the Pope is going to crawl out. Man can determine 99% of what he finds, its that 1% that gives it life. I say that 1% is God.
Last edited by LMM
quote:
Originally posted by Dawkins7:
quote:
Originally posted by Max Kuster:
I am not an atheist, but an agnostic. I do not understand the nature of the higher power that is responsible for my existence. However, in my limited intellect, it is beyond me to conclude with certainty that a higher power does not exist.


Max,

I'm an atheist but do not conclude "with certainty" that gods do not exist. I can only conclude that they probably do not with some degree of certainty.

I do not believe agnosticism is an appropriate stance even though I once considered myself one. I now see agnosticism as "atheism with training wheels." You either believe gods exist or you do not. Which is it?


I wondered why you got so nasty lately Skep. Now I see. When you were Fish, we could converse. Not now. You and DF have gone your own route of hatred just like you accuse the Christians of. And don't hit me with 'only the fundamentalists', we both know that one is a fairy tale.
quote:
Originally posted by LMM:
Reply to the first, unedited.
The lines in Genesis do follow the same path as scientific evolution.


No they don't LMM. Did you read the post where I laid that out nicely for you? In Genesis, oceans were created before the land. Our solar system was created before the rest of the universe. Birds were created before land animals. Man was created before woman.

Really, LMM, you are smarter than this.

quote:
If man did evolve from the same line as other primates, then we should have other similar homosapiens with speech capabilities as our own.


That shows such a profound ignorance of the facts of evolution, LMM. This is simply a restatement of "If man came from monkeys, why are there still monkeys??"

I refuse to believe that a person can have a "double major" in biology and still completely misunderstand such a basic concept.

If you would like to re-educate yourself on the subject, here is an excellent essay on the subject:

http://scienceblogs.com/evolvi...re_still_monkeys.php
Good Morning!

I agree with LMM, in a limited sense in that I see us as a product of an intelligent design. I believe that evolution is the technique used to develop creatures of will dignity in a universe created by god. I certainly do not believe that one day there was nothing, and then Poof! the next day two fully developed human beings. I do not even believe that god said “let’s start with protoplasm, and micromanage it all the way thru dinosaurs etc… until Voila! Adam and Eve”. But I do believe that we are the product of an intelligent and managed (to some extent) program of development from the beginnings of life in the shallow warm seas of the pre-life period until the first animals were born who had the capacity for wisdom and worship. These are the two qualities which distinguish man from his animal cousins.

I also believe that a portion of who we are, (personality and soul) will survive death and go forth into an eternity of adventure and service. That all religions are valid to the extent which they bring man to god, and flawed to the extent in which they substitute the concept of the brotherhood of man for misguided concepts such as being the “chosen people”, the “end times” and the rejection of scientific evidence. (plus a whole host of others).

However, I completely understand that science and religion are two separate and mostly unrelated sides to human life. In fact I see life as triune… the physical (scientific understanding), the social (human interaction) and the spiritual (personal religious experience). Without any one of these legs, the individual is to some extent, crippled.

As far is personal religious experience is concerned…between two individuals who have had this, no explanation is necessary. Between individuals who have not, no explanation is possible.

This is not to say that those who participate in this forum are unable to have a personal religious experience, just unwilling.

But welcome, Max, to our little forum.
According to Genesis, god created light on the first day, but not the sun, the moon, or the stars until the fourth day. Did the Bronze Age farmers who wrote not understand that the sun is the source of light?

That cant' be right. Fail.

Second day, god created a "firmament" to divide the waters below and above it. This is just silliness. There is no such thing. Might have made sense to ancient shepherds looking up, incapable of realizing what they were seeing, but we know it's bunk.

Third day, god created grass and fruit tree. Nothing like grass existed on land until the Ordovician period, about 500 million years ago. Flowering plants some time later. Life existed long before this. Genesis: Fail.

Day four, god created the sun, moon, and stars. After plants. After "light". Another Genesis fail.

Fifth day, god created whales. Before land animals. He created all the beasties of the seas, after fruit trees. Get out your text and read up on the Burgess Shale, the Cambrian Explosion. Yet another Genesis fail. Big fail.

Day six, god creates humans. Plural. Male and female. No Adam, no Eve. If you squint a bit, this is roughly accurate, chronologically speaking.

There's too much wrong with this story to believe it. 2500 years ago, we could be forgiven for believing it, we didn't know better.

Now we do, and in particular, YOU do. You know that human beings are not necessarily the pinnacle, the destination, of evolution. You know that genetic mutation happens far more often than one is a billion times. You know that evolution happens, how, and why. You know it is not random.

You know we are animals. Bright, self-aware animals. That's our thing. We cannot fight, we can't run, we're pretty useless in water, we can't climb trees anymore. We think, that is our specialty.

I've been cranky, hon. I get that way when people who can think don't, or won't. I get all sorts of cranky when I see people reject perfectly sound, demonstrable knowledge and replace it with superstitious nonsense that was our first, worst explanation of the Universe.

I don't expect it from trolls and others who are incapable of recognizing a truth that takes a little education to understand. Of others, I have higher expectations.

DF
DF,
Don't expect so much of someone whom you actually have no idea of how they think, feel, or use reasoning.

To hold someone to our own personal expectations of behavior leads to misconceptions, falsehoods, and disappointment.

You and Skep are just as judgmental as the very group you despise.

Frowner
quote:
Originally posted by LMM:
Max,
You got one thing right, I do not take everything in the Bible as literal. It was not meant to be so. It also was not written as a scientific or historical document.



I am not a scientist. I am a philosopher. As such, I attempt to make judgments on our plane of existence with whatever logic I can muster. It goes without saying, but I will, for those who would love to shoot down such a statement , I am an imperfect logical thinker.

When we apply logical thinking to a proposition, the first rule is to apply the truth test. That is, is the preamble to a proposition truthful? Your above statement is not truthful.

The Christian Bible states over and over again that it is the plenary inspired word of God. It says that, word for word, it is the one and only truth of God's plan for mankind. You might question the interpretations, saying that the truth was muddled over the centuries. However, when, for example Jesus said that, to the exclusion of all other faiths that, "no one comes unto the Father but through me", there can be no muddling of the translation. Is that statement true? Are Muslims and Jews, and members of the hundreds of recognized religions across the world, and those people who have no belief in God at all, condemned to an eternity of suffering? The Bible leaves little doubt, and the translations are above misinterpretations.

Indeed, there are Christians on this very forum that would condemn YOU to hell for your beliefs. The Bible is either true or it is not. The Earth and stars were created in seven days, or they were not. Science and religion do not mix.

And we are disingenuous to ourselves to say that they do.
quote:
Indeed, there are Christians on this very forum that would condemn YOU to hell for your beliefs. Already have, no biggie!


The Bible is either true or it is not. The Earth and stars were created in seven days, or they were not. Science and religion do not mix. Yes, they do, they mix quite nicely, the time frame of God is not the time frame of man.

And we are disingenuous to ourselves to say that they do. Nope, sorry, not seeing it that way, but you do what ever makes you froggy.
quote:
Originally posted by Dawkins7:
quote:
Originally posted by Max Kuster:
I am not an atheist, but an agnostic. I do not understand the nature of the higher power that is responsible for my existence. However, in my limited intellect, it is beyond me to conclude with certainty that a higher power does not exist.


Max,

I'm an atheist but do not conclude "with certainty" that gods do not exist. I can only conclude that they probably do not with some degree of certainty.

I do not believe agnosticism is an appropriate stance even though I once considered myself one. I now see agnosticism as "atheism with training wheels." You either believe gods exist or you do not. Which is it?


I do not believe in the god of the bible. Without doubts or reservation I can say that. Its a fairy tale at best.

However sometimes I do wonder if there was not some form of intelligent design. I could have just gotten way too deep into Battlestar Galactica...who knows.

"This has happened before, it will happen again....

So say we all...."

could we be cylons?

Big Grin
quote:
Originally posted by Jankinonya:

I do not believe in the god of the bible. Without doubts or reservation I can say that. Its a fairy tale at best.

However sometimes I do wonder if there was not some form of intelligent design. I could have just gotten way too deep into Battlestar Galactica...who knows.

could we be cylons?

Big Grin


There! Right there, L. A truthful preamble, and a clever question! Smiler
L,

I admit I'm judgmental. I am under no rubric to be otherwise.

Yes, I judge. I judge the sane from the insane. The truthful from the liars. I admit it. This just makes me honest, as opposed to the hypocrites who do so and claim they do not.

Someone has to do it. And I have science and reason on my side. Give me your arguments, I will listen to them.

There are many who don't want to have to make the decisions about hard questions. Their lives suck, and all the decisions they've ever made were wrong.

My life has been less than perfect, but I can deal with it. I relegate reality to no one. I take my hits and my misses.

Oh, I'm so very judgmental. Just show me where I'm wrong.


DF
quote:
Originally posted by LMM:
Nah, I don't want to play anymore, since Max just called me L, I'm thinking he is a clone of yours.

Talk among yourselves.


Excuse me. However, I am not associated with DeepFat in any way. If referring to you as 'L', leads you to believe that, then I will surely not use that again.

I appreciate your arguments and your lively responses, and hope for many more intellectual musings. But to suggest that I am clone of DeepFat... Please do not go there. Shall we all three link up on a conference phone call? I am game.

LMM, PM me if you want.
I hope ya’ll don’t mind me interrupting your little intellectual tea room conversation and I mean this in a positive way I’ve read most of it but not all. What I laboriously have to say is kind of a shotgun shot of comments ……God created light ….darkness is the absence of light in the book of Genesis is it not possible that these are metaphors for good and evil ….Think about it if there were no eyes why would there be visible light…..God has a radiance of his on he doesn’t need a torch…..The creation of man ,God formed him from the dust of the earth……….if you dry out a human body and powder it what do you have ? Dust ,chemically analysis will reveal that it is composed of the elements of the periodic table…….what you call evolution that was God forming Man in his own image from these elements(how long did it take no one Knows ,How many steps were involved no answer there either)….now this word evolution that you use really means “the scientific theory of evolution” which is incomplete any real scientist will tell you that. The result of this process (one of them ) is man . Man is a word created by man .What does it mean ?Does our meaning of “Man” coincide with Gods . What is the difference in a moth and a butterfly , a duck and a goose ,
a sheep and a goat or a “man” and a chimp. Is it purely semantics ?
If man can evolve why couldn’t he de-evolve ? What if chimps are “man” science seems ever closer to proving that with their own definition of proof .(don’t bother to give me the ,language , self-consciousness or tools argument) I’m not saying that I believe this ,just that it is a possibility……Neanderthal now there is another paradox ,”be he man ‘er beast” .They are want to not call him human now(not that they have lowered his status but raised “modern man “far above him)…..where did he go ……is he walking among us now ?
quote:
Originally posted by Dawkins7:
quote:
Originally posted by LMM:
Reply to the first, unedited.
The lines in Genesis do follow the same path as scientific evolution.


No they don't LMM. Did you read the post where I laid that out nicely for you? In Genesis, oceans were created before the land. Our solar system was created before the rest of the universe. Birds were created before land animals. Man was created before woman.

Really, LMM, you are smarter than this.



I'm having to side with LMM on this. Only the atheists and fundies require the Bible to be inerrant and literal. You're beating a horse that isn't even in the race.
quote:
Originally posted by Jankinonya:


"This has happened before, it will happen again....

So say we all...."

could we be cylons?

Big Grin


There are several works in science fiction that tie up all the loose ends neatly with the explanation of advanced alien humans coming to earth in pre-historic times.

If you are seeking a compatible religion, might I suggest Scientology?
quote:
Originally posted by ka-0-hub:
What ever you do don't ever call her "little Mean Moma"!!!


That's fine as long as you spell it correctly for my screen name,
littlemeanmama.

The singular "L" has always been used by DF, so perhaps I jumped when I should not have.


As for a theory of alien visitors, I have always like the reptilian "V".
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
As I have often said: God said it! I believe it!


Bill,
I agree with you. My pastor just pointed something out this past Sunday. That quote that you're quoting has another line, "That's it." What some people fail to realize is this; it doesn't matter what we believe. The reality of God's Word isn't solidified by our belief in It. God doesn't need our belief to be real. All one needs to do is open his/her eyes to see the Creator. Also, people need to understand that God doesn't cause bad things to happen to people. He ALLOWS bad things to happen to "good" people all the time. God NEVER sends anyone to hell. Their rejection of Him takes care of that. satan and all of his demons WILL BE sent to hell in the end, only to be kept company by the cries to be heard from all those who rejected the Truth. Notice I didn't say "kept company by those who rejected." They'll all be ALONE FOREVER, with only the dreadful, ever-increasing intensity of the screams. Who would want that? Wake up, people!!!
No, Bill, most of this post wasn't for you. Thanks for your stand!
quote:
Originally posted by Tomme73:
They'll all be ALONE FOREVER, with only the dreadful, ever-increasing intensity of the screams. Who would want that? Wake up, people!!!
No, Bill, most of this post wasn't for you. Thanks for your stand!


I find it interesting that most people pay closest attention to those authority figures who say the things that they themselves already believe in.

An honest discourse has to, of necessity, involve truth testing. My friend, you are just like so many other fundamentalist christians. You simply regurgitate the same tired, old platitudes that thinking people have long ago relegated to nothing more than background noise. It's OK. It helps you sleep. And I do agree with one thing you regurgitated. It doesn't matter what you think.
quote:
Originally posted by alwilliams767:
However, it would help if you did think.


Yes, however, most followers would rather let someone else do the thinking for them. And like I indicated it's really OK. If they would only keep to themselves.

Now, I think, it is time to find a new topic, as this has pretty much run its course.

Any thoughts?
quote:
Originally posted by Max Kuster:
quote:
Originally posted by Tomme73:
They'll all be ALONE FOREVER, with only the dreadful, ever-increasing intensity of the screams. Who would want that? Wake up, people!!!
No, Bill, most of this post wasn't for you. Thanks for your stand!


I find it interesting that most people pay closest attention to those authority figures who say the things that they themselves already believe in.

An honest discourse has to, of necessity, involve truth testing. My friend, you are just like so many other fundamentalist christians. You simply regurgitate the same tired, old platitudes that thinking people have long ago relegated to nothing more than background noise. It's OK. It helps you sleep. And I do agree with one thing you regurgitated. It doesn't matter what you think.


Max,
Just when I was beginning to think you were different, . . . My faith can't be placed inside a box. My faith is bigger than that. I've seen God at work. I've seen what happens when God lets satan do his handiwork, too. Job is a prime example. The Old Testament can be considered a history of Hebrew nation. Someone posted rather matter-of-factly that the Exodus never took place. Evidence of something on a rather grand scale involving Egyptian chariots has been discovered in an awfully strange place for chariots to be: at the bottom of the Red Sea, in the ONLY place anyone could have had a chance to cross. "The Bible was inscribed over a period of 2000 years in times of war and in days of peace by kings, physicians, tax collectors, farmers, fishermen, singers and shepherds. The marvel is that a library so perfectly cohesive could have been produced by such a diverse crowd over a period of time which staggers the imagination. Jesus is It's grand subject, our good is designed and the Glory of God is it's end."
Laminin - Is its shape an accident?
The placement of Earth in our solar system, at the only spot in our solar system where life on a planet could be sustainable - Accident?
The elevation encoder of an Orbit AL 4017 Radar Antenna Pedestal coming into PERFECT alignment during a Coarse Alignment procedure, at 2 separate locations on 2 separate occasions, after MANY failed attempts to get it within 4 degrees, to be able to perform the Fine Alignment procedure, on the FIRST attempt after stopping to pray to GOD for His divine help, so my colleagues and I could wrap up the job and get back home to our families - Accident?
quote:
Originally posted by CrustyMac:
I'm having to side with LMM on this. Only the atheists and fundies require the Bible to be inerrant and literal. You're beating a horse that isn't even in the race.


Now now. I do not assert the bible is inerrant and literal. I don't assert that most Christians think that. In fact, I am certain that the vast majority of Christians - if they think deeply about it at all - would agree that the bible is not inerrant and literal.

I know that only a small percentage of fundamentalists are responsible for the vast majority of the stupidity that spews from the pulpit and garners headlines. But those people are quite vocal, organized and influential.

Our friend LMM, who possesses a a double major in biology and chemistry, has stated that she believes talking snakes are responsible for bringing evil into the world and Adam and Eve were formed exactly how Genesis says they were formed.

LMM represents a large segment of the population that refuses to acknowledge the glaring inconsistencies with biblical literalism. It is a dissonance that I find fascinating and impossible to NOT ridicule.
quote:
Originally posted by Tomme73:
"The Bible was inscribed over a period of 2000 years in times of war and in days of peace by kings, physicians, tax collectors, farmers, fishermen, singers and shepherds. The marvel is that a library so perfectly cohesive could have been produced by such a diverse crowd over a period of time which staggers the imagination.


Perfectly cohesive? Cit an example of this cohesiveness?

quote:

Laminin - Is its shape an accident?


Seriously? You cite a molecule that resembles a cross as "proof" of your faith? For the record, the molecule doesn't necessarily have a "cross" shape. It is depicted that way for clarity. The strands of laminins (the "crossbar" and "upright") do not always stand straight and at right angles but does consist of arms; three of which are short and one of which is long. The resemblance stops there.

That said, there is no description of a cross in the bible. We don't even know what one actually looked like.

quote:
The placement of Earth in our solar system, at the only spot in our solar system where life on a planet could be sustainable - Accident?


This is called that anthropic principle. It's bunk designed to elicit religious emotions from people who have never bothered to educate themselves about our origins. It's a worthless presumption. Carl Sagan said it best "There is something stunningly narrow about how the Anthropic Principle is phrased. Yes, only certain laws and constants of nature are consistent with our kind of life. But essentially the same laws and constants are required to make a rock. So why not talk about a Universe designed so rocks could one day come to be, and strong and weak Lithic Principals? If stones could philosophize, I imagine Lithic Principals would be at the intellectual frontiers."


quote:
The elevation encoder of an Orbit AL 4017 Radar Antenna Pedestal coming into PERFECT alignment during a Coarse Alignment procedure, at 2 separate locations on 2 separate occasions, after MANY failed attempts to get it within 4 degrees, to be able to perform the Fine Alignment procedure, on the FIRST attempt after stopping to pray to GOD for His divine help, so my colleagues and I could wrap up the job and get back home to our families - Accident?



Are you sure engineering had nothing to do with this? God doesn't grant your request then deny one from the little child who is pleading for her life at the hands of a predator.
quote:
Originally posted by Dawkins7:


Are you sure engineering had nothing to do with this? God doesn't grant your request then deny one from the little child who is pleading for her life at the hands of a predator.


Those encoder assemblies are engineered so that the Coarse Alignment must be completed within 4% accuracy for the Fine Alignment to work.

As for little children pleading for their lives at the hands of predators, God answers prayer how He chooses to. It's not our place to make sense of it. I was citing specific moments in my life of a prayer, regardless of how insignificant one may deem it to be, being answered IMMEDIATELY. Why would we trust God to take care of the BIG things if He can't be trusted to take care of the LITTLE things? He could say the same things about us.

The rest of your argument still doesn't rule out God. God's Son died for you. Stop telling Him "No."
quote:
It's not our place to make sense of it.

It's my place. Let me help you out.

It makes no sense. None.

What makes less sense is that you admit you cannot make sense out of it, and every Sunday pretend you do. Don't deny it, I've heard it. It's madness, and the longer you try to pack modern society into an ancient book of poetry, suspicious (at best) stories, and more-than-dubious actuality, the madder it will get.

I would say its entertaining, but too many End Of The World maniacs vote, and have nuclear weapons.

Tomme, please tell me one thing you know about god for a fact, and why. Relying on the bible is not going to work, it's not a factual book.

DF
quote:
Originally posted by Tomme73:
I was citing specific moments in my life of a prayer, regardless of how insignificant one may deem it to be, being answered IMMEDIATELY. Why would we trust God to take care of the BIG things if He can't be trusted to take care of the LITTLE things? He could say the same things about us.


Tomme you need to take your act on the road. If God is willing to do your work for you, maybe he will answer you when you pray for the regrowth of an amputated limb. There is a fellow in the Shoals that needs your help now.
quote:
Originally posted by DeepFat:
quote:
It's not our place to make sense of it.

It's my place. Let me help you out.

It makes no sense. None.

What makes less sense is that you admit you cannot make sense out of it, and every Sunday pretend you do. Don't deny it, I've heard it. It's madness, and the longer you try to pack modern society into an ancient book of poetry, suspicious (at best) stories, and more-than-dubious actuality, the madder it will get.

I would say its entertaining, but too many End Of The World maniacs vote, and have nuclear weapons.

Tomme, please tell me one thing you know about god for a fact, and why. Relying on the bible is not going to work, it's not a factual book.

DF


What he say.

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