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Not even the Bible claims to be the sole authority of faith. Paul wrote,

"What you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful

men who will be able to teach others also"  2 Tim. 2:2. And he also said,

"Hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth

or by letter" 2 Thess. 2:15.

 

These oral teachings and traditions have been handed down and entrusted

to the Church, and they remain as much a part of the full Christian faith

as the Bible. To ignore them is no less a tragedy than to ignore the Bible.

 

 

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Originally Posted by INVICTUS:

 .

Not even the Bible claims to be the sole authority of faith. Paul wrote,

"What you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful

men who will be able to teach others also"  2 Tim. 2:2. And he also said,

"Hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth

or by letter" 2 Thess. 2:15.

 

These oral teachings and traditions have been handed down and entrusted

to the Church, and they remain as much a part of the full Christian faith

as the Bible. To ignore them is no less a tragedy than to ignore the Bible.

 

 

Not so fast invicculleouss Paul taught many to persecute Christians.

Vic

Are these traditions written down anywhere? Who has them the Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, the Armenians? I know that Paul had other writings that he spoke of including a Letter to Laodicea and so I'm open to hear about these traditions. I just wonder if oral traditions cannot be changed over time. Are these traditions accessible online?

Quail as usual I have no idea where you're coming from.

Originally Posted by Red Baron:

Vic

Are these traditions written down anywhere? Who has them the Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, the Armenians? I know that Paul had other writings that he spoke of including a Letter to Laodicea and so I'm open to hear about these traditions. I just wonder if oral traditions cannot be changed over time. Are these traditions accessible online?

Quail as usual I have no idea where you're coming from.

Red baron Paul persecuted therefore teaching others to do the same. It would not be clear that the example of Paul was erased from every mind that knew of his persecutions and they certainly would have been the custom so invicculeous has to include that premise in his spurious emissions polluting the clear doctrine of the miracle of the written Word at the hands of  the ancestors of men guided  by the Holy Spirit at which now is regarded by the Catholic Church  proven to have been at a great risk and without merit to have trusted the Holy Spirit to begin with.

Originally Posted by Quaildog:
Originally Posted by Red Baron:

Vic

Are these traditions written down anywhere? Who has them the Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, the Armenians? I know that Paul had other writings that he spoke of including a Letter to Laodicea and so I'm open to hear about these traditions. I just wonder if oral traditions cannot be changed over time. Are these traditions accessible online?

Quail as usual I have no idea where you're coming from.

Red baron Paul persecuted therefore teaching others to do the same. It would not be clear that the example of Paul was erased from every mind that knew of his persecutions and they certainly would have been the custom so invicculeous has to include that premise in his spurious emissions polluting the clear doctrine of the miracle of the written Word at the hands of  the ancestors of men guided  by the Holy Spirit at which now is regarded by the Catholic Church  proven to have been at a great risk and without merit to have trusted the Holy Spirit to begin with.

-------

QueenD, are you talking about saul or paul??

Saul only persecuted the COC while Paul only persected Arkansas.

Originally Posted by INVICTUS:
Originally Posted by Quaildog:
Originally Posted by Red Baron:

Vic

Are these traditions written down anywhere? Who has them the Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, the Armenians? I know that Paul had other writings that he spoke of including a Letter to Laodicea and so I'm open to hear about these traditions. I just wonder if oral traditions cannot be changed over time. Are these traditions accessible online?

Quail as usual I have no idea where you're coming from.

Red baron Paul persecuted therefore teaching others to do the same. It would not be clear that the example of Paul was erased from every mind that knew of his persecutions and they certainly would have been the custom so invicculeous has to include that premise in his spurious emissions polluting the clear doctrine of the miracle of the written Word at the hands of  the ancestors of men guided  by the Holy Spirit at which now is regarded by the Catholic Church  proven to have been at a great risk and without merit to have trusted the Holy Spirit to begin with.

-------

QueenD, are you talking about saul or paul??

Saul only persecuted the COC while Paul only persected Arkansas.

 

Also I’m not saying that Catholics will be the preferred fuel for HELL but I predict that, with the running-go from some distance God will thump the ears of these Popes with a resounding crack that will be heard THERE.

 

 take your pick vic Paul or Saul

Originally Posted by INVICTUS:

 .

Not even the Bible claims to be the sole authority of faith. Paul wrote,

"What you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful

men who will be able to teach others also"  2 Tim. 2:2. And he also said,

"Hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth

or by letter" 2 Thess. 2:15.

 

These oral teachings and traditions have been handed down and entrusted

to the Church, and they remain as much a part of the full Christian faith

as the Bible. To ignore them is no less a tragedy than to ignore the Bible

 

INFECTUS.. Madam Ovary...what a freaking nut!! Hell has a special place for people like you!! Preach one minute, then troll the forum, and spew hate on other topics. What a pathetic twisted man you are!!

 

Last edited by GOPOSAUR

Quail

Paul did indeed persecute the churches before he was saved. He may have taught others to do same but they would have been Jews. His New Testament writings were primarily to gentile converts who would have had no knowledge of Paul beforehand because as a good Jew he would not have had dealings with Gentiles. Vic was clearly talking about traditions passed down after he was saved and became a minister of the Gospel. So Vic where are these traditions preserved?

Hi Vic,

 

You tell us, "

These oral teachings and traditions have been handed down and entrusted to the Church, and they remain as much a part of the full Christian faith as the Bible.  To ignore them is no less a tragedy than to ignore the Bible."


What oral teachings and traditions do you have in mind?  Are there oral teachings and traditions that are locked away in the Vatican and only the Roman Catholic church has access to them?


Keep in mind that when Paul and the other apostles and disciples were planting churches and teaching the people -- there was no Bible yet as we know it.  They used their knowledge of the Old Testament Scripture, the knowledge they had received from Jesus Christ and through special revelation, and their personal first-hand knowledge of having walked with Jesus Christ -- to teach new believers.


Paul, Peter, and other disciples began to put this knowledge into writing, which we call epistles, or letters to the churches.


This knowledge and these epistles were put into writing, later canonized, and became our Bible.  Once we had the Bible -- there was no longer any need for traditions, prophets, etc. -- for the people now had God's Written Word.


But, let's look at the Scripture passages you mentioned:


2 Timothy 2:2, "The things which you have heard from me in the presence of many witnesses, entrust these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also."


What is Paul doing here?  Like any mentor, he is giving instructions and teachings to his disciple -- and telling him to share this with new believers.   This is done every day in seminaries to those being taught.  Using your logic -- all the teachings of the seminaries would be consider traditions and should be sacred.   NOT!


2 Thessalonians 2:15,. "So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us."


Here, Paul is speaking of the epistles and personal teachings he has given to the people in the church of Thessalonica.  These teachings and epistles all became part of the Bible.  But, once again, using your logic -- if we consider this all tradition, and sacred, when Pastor Paul was teaching the people of Thessalonica -- then the teachings, i.e., sermons, of all pastors should be viewed as tradition and should be sacred.   NOT!


But, let's look at what Jesus Christ had to say about man's traditions:


Matthew 15:2-3, "'Why do Your disciples break the tradition of the elders?  For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread.' (3) And He answered and said to them,'Why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?' "

Colossians 2:8, "See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ."


So, Vic, my Friend -- face it, the Roman Catholic church is fueled by traditions, rituals, and ceremony -- when it should be fueled by the Written Word of God.


Yes, the Written Word of God, the Bible -- is the sole authority given by God for Christian living and salvation.  Sola Scriptura!


God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,


Bill


2 Timothy 3_16-17 - Bible Inspired By God

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quote:   Originally Posted by vplee123:
The sole authority that ITSELF denies being the sole authority.

Hi VP,

 

One very important question:  Where does the Bible teach that?

 

I have shown from Scripture that the passages Vic quoted do not say that.  So, what Scripture verses or passages do you have which prove the Bible is not the sole authority for Christian living and salvation?

 

It is one thing to make a claim.  It is altogether another to show proof.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

2 Timothy 2-15

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Originally Posted by Bill Gray:
quote:   Originally Posted by vplee123:
The sole authority that ITSELF denies being the sole authority.

Hi VP,

 

One very important question:  Where does the Bible teach that?

 

I have shown from Scripture that the passages Vic quoted do not say that.  So, what Scripture verses or passages do you have which prove the Bible is not the sole authority for Christian living and salvation?

 

It is one thing to make a claim.  It is altogether another to show proof.

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The most important thing to remember is the Bible in NO way claims to

be the sole authority for Christian salvation. Not in writing or otherwise.

What the Bible does say and demands in writing is the acceptance of

Tradition.

 

What traditions does the Bible demand that we honor? Where are they found? Does tradition ever contradict scripture? If two Christian groups such as the Eastern Orthodox and Catholic hold to different traditions can one be proven right and one proven wrong from history? Did John lie in 1 John 5:13 when he claimed that we can know that we have eternal life without any mention of tradition?

These are probably two of the biggest lies I see on this forum:

1.  Roman Catholic church is fueled by traditions, rituals, and ceremony -- when it should be fueled by the Written Word of God.

The Catholic Church is fueled by Jesus, the Word of God We honor both what He spoke, and what he later inspired men to write down.  One example of tradition is:  The Bible says to keep holy the Sabbath, which is Friday at sundown to Saturday at sundown.  Yet as Christians we worship on Sunday, honoring the Resurrection.  this Tradition started in the Catholic Church, and other Christian Churches continue to follow this Catholic tradition.

 

2.  the Written Word of God, the Bible -- is the sole authority given by God for Christian living and salvation.  Sola Scriptura

The Bible itself refutes this in many places, as we have previously noted many, many times.

All this nonsenses of Paul talking about the traditions of men.  He said to keep ALL that he taught, whether by letter or by spoken word.  That is how things were done in those days, long before the New Testament was completed, and long before the Catholic Church decided what would go in the New Testament.

 

Praised be Jesus forever!!!

Originally Posted by Red Baron:

Quail

Paul did indeed persecute the churches before he was saved. He may have taught others to do same but they would have been Jews. His New Testament writings were primarily to gentile converts who would have had no knowledge of Paul beforehand because as a good Jew he would not have had dealings with Gentiles. Vic was clearly talking about traditions passed down after he was saved and became a minister of the Gospel. So Vic where are these traditions preserved?

 ~~~~~~

Tradition in the Catholic Church doesn't mean legends or mythological

accounts or transitory customs or practices which may change.  Sacred or

apostolic tradition consists of the teachings that the apostles passed on

orally through their preaching. These teachings largely or even entirely 

overlap with those contained in Scripture.

 

They have been handed down and entrusted to the Churchs. It is necessary

that Christians believe in and follow this tradition as well as the Bible as in

Luke 10:16. The truth of the faith has been given primarily to the leaders of

the Church. - Eph. 3:5- who, with Christ, form the foundation of the Church-

Eph. 2:20. The Church has been guided by the Holy Spirit, who protects this

teaching from corruption -John 14:25-26 / 16:13.

 

Paul tells us what tradition is, "For I delivered to you as of first importance

what I also received, that Christ died for our sins in accordance with

the scriptures. . . . Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you

believed" -1 Cor. 15:3,11. The apostle praised those who followed Tradition,

"I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the

traditions even as I have delivered them to you" 1 Cor. 11:2.

 

Billie will say Jesus condemned tradition. when he  said, "And why do you

transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?"

Matt. 15:3. Paul warned, "See to it that no one makes a prey of you by

philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to

the elemental spirits of the universe, and not according to Christ" Col. 2:8.

But these verses merely condemn erroneous human traditions, not truths

which were handed down orally and entrusted to the Church by the apostles.

These latter truths are part of what is known as apostolic tradition,

which is to be distinguished from human traditions or customs.  

 

 There is more of this in Catholic Answers

 

http://www.catholic.com/tracts...ipture-and-tradition

 

 

quote:   Originally Posted by Dove of Peace:

Billy boy!  Still waiting oh untruthful one... 

Hi Dove,

 

Waiting for what?  Are you waiting for me to tell you I love you?  Okay, I LOVE YOU with a strong Christian love!  There, now -- don't you feel better?

 

But, NO!  I will not marry you!

 

Bless you little old heart,

 

Bill

Sylvester-Cat_In_Love

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Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Hi David,

 

I am writing a response to your post; however since yesterday morning I have only popped in and out of the forum a few times -- and have not had time to really complete a detailed response.

 

Yesterday morning, the 20 year old daughter of a close Christian sister was killed in a car accident on the freeway.  And, that has taken much of the wind from my sails.  She was such a beautiful girl, with all of her life ahead of her -- and in a split second she was gone.  I don't know all the details yet.  A Friend in Santa Barbara who is their relative called to tell me -- and I was too shocked to ask any questions about how it happened.

 

Just last week her mom had posted photos of her 20th Birthday Party on Facebook -- and I had commented about how quickly she had become 20 years old; when I still think of her as that small child in church.

 

But, please keep my Christian sister, Jean, in your prayers.  She had two daughters and this was the youngest.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

 

Still waiting...

 
quote:   Originally Posted by INVICTUS:
quote:   Originally Posted by Quaildog:

There is more of this in Catholic Answers:

 

http://www.catholic.com/tracts...ipture-and-tradition

 

Where is a list of these traditions starting with #1? who coined it? 

#1.......... In the beginning, when God created the heavens and the earth,  Coined by "God"    I should've known you would be argumentative about it.

Hi Vic,

 

My Friend, I am not sure how to break this to you -- but, Genesis 1:1 IS Scripture, i.e., written in God's Written Word, the Bible.  It is not tradition -- but, God's Written Word!

 

Now, from the Catholic Answers web page which Quail references:

 

Much the same can be said about 2 Timothy 3:16-17.  To say that all inspired writing "has its uses" is one thing; to say that only inspired writing need be followed is something else. Besides, there is a telling argument against claims of Evangelical and Fundamentalist Protestants.  John Henry Newman explained it in an 1884 essay entitled "Inspiration in its Relation to Revelation."

 

Newman’s argument:  He wrote: "It is quite evident that this passage furnishes no argument whatever that the sacred Scripture, without Tradition, is the sole rule of faith; for, although sacred Scripture is profitable for these four ends, still it is not said to be sufficient.  The Apostle [Paul] requires the aid of Tradition (2 Thess. 2:15).  Moreover, the Apostle here refers to the scriptures which Timothy was taught in his infancy.  Now, a good part of the New Testament was not written in his boyhood: Some of the Catholic epistles were not written even when Paul wrote this, and none of the books of the New Testament were then placed on the canon of the Scripture books."

 

So, who is this John Henry Newman?  We find that he is:  John Henry Newman, also referred to as Cardinal Newman. . . "  Enough said.    http://www.google.com/#hl=en&a...biw=1280&bih=581

 

Yet, Cardinal Newman makes the same point I have made in other posts -- that the traditions Paul and other disciples refer to in Scripture -- are the oral sermons they taught in newly planted churches, and epistles, i.e., letters, they wrote to those churches -- before the New Testament was written.  Those epistles later were solidified as books of the New Testament, Scripture, when God had them canonized as the 66 books of the Bible.

 

God says:

 

2 Timothy 3:16-17, "All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work."

 

And, Roman Catholic Cardinal Newman says:

 

"It is quite evident that this passage furnishes no argument whatever that the sacred Scripture, without Tradition, is the sole rule of faith; for, although sacred Scripture is profitable for these four ends, still it is not said to be sufficient."

 

I will take God's word over that of any man -- ANY MAN!

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

 

2 Timothy 3_16-17 - Bible Inspired By God

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Originally Posted by Bill Gray:
quote:   Originally Posted by INVICTUS:
quote:   Originally Posted by Quaildog:

There is more of this in Catholic Answers:

 

http://www.catholic.com/tracts...ipture-and-tradition

 

Where is a list of these traditions starting with #1? who coined it? 

#1.......... In the beginning, when God created the heavens and the earth,  Coined by "God"    I should've known you would be argumentative about it.

Hi Vic,

 

My Friend, I am not sure how to break this to you -- but, Genesis 1:1 IS Scripture, i.e., written in God's Written Word, the Bible.  It is not tradition -- but, God's Written Word!

 ***********************************************************************

billie, I know how to break this to you. You're a lying idiot

 

 

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