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The topics of this forum have turned to a debate between science and religion, and whether or not people (?SHEEPLE) are crazy for following their beliefs in God and Heaven.
Now, there are some "normal" people here, thinking, breathing, science-embracing, God Loving Christians- we are not all extremists, without minds of our own.
I believe there is a balance of science and religion. Belief in one does not have to be mutually exclusive.
Road Puppy, you in particular, I believe, are trying very hard to believe in something. I really do. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think you were forced into Catholicism as a child, and then rebelled against the structure. Now you are looking for your own truths.
You don't have to throw out logic and thinking in order to have faith in God, and in Jesus Christ. You don't have to be a nutjob, and have a "real men love Jesus" sticker on your truck.
There is a lot to be said for intelligent, quiet, humble faith. Love for God that does not boast or yell from the Hilltops. There is a middle ground, where you can believe in God, but not lose yourself in the process.
Anyway, it just seems to me that people are presenting these issues as choice:
1. God is supreme and nothing else can explain anything else in the world
2. Science is the only way.

There are people who embrace both camps. Quietly accepting scientific evidence, knowing that God was, is, and always will be in control. Not understanding all the "ins and outs" of the Creation, universe, and life in general, but maintaining a Faith that it all was created by God. We know the earth is way older than 6000 years. But we also know that God's ways are so high above our ways, as the Heavens are above the Earth.
So please consider, not having to take it or leave it. There is a life in which you can have a respect for scientific advances, and a love for God, who made such advances possible.
Remember the story in which Jesus shows His wounds so that they may believe and He sais "Blessed are those who have NOT seen yet believe". Sorry, don't have the chapter/verse in front of me...but I'm sure someone will clarify If i have misquoted. Smiler
Anyway, to recap, you can believe in God and you can believe scientific advances. Faith in God does not equate becoming a "Sheeple". You have spirituality in you- it's just a matter of figuring it all out for yourselves.
You can be a Christian believer, full of spirituality, without being an extremist nut job bible thumper. In fact, the most Godly and devout Christians I have encountered have been quiet and humble in their Faith.
Smiler
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The primary criterion is not science, but will. As C.S. Lewis said: “There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, "All right, then, have it your way."

Most people, scientists included, do not waver back and forth based on the latest scientific discoveries. Science depends upon data, instruments, and theories all of which change constantly.
quote:
Originally posted by Billy Joe Bob Gene:
you're quite right, not all of them.

tomorrow, I go to church. That's where the fish fry is. I bought a ticket for catfish and shrimp, with lots of sides, from my friend Murray.

I'll take the camera. Lunch is locked in, babies.

COME NOW, DEEP! - WHEN IS THE LAST TIME YOU HAVE BEEN A CHURCH - NOT COUNTING FUNERALS!

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quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
The topics of this forum have turned to a debate between science and religion, and whether or not people (?SHEEPLE) are crazy for following their beliefs in God and Heaven.
Now, there are some "normal" people here, thinking, breathing, science-embracing, God Loving Christians- we are not all extremists, without minds of our own.
I believe there is a balance of science and religion. Belief in one does not have to be mutually exclusive.
Road Puppy, you in particular, I believe, are trying very hard to believe in something. I really do. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think you were forced into Catholicism as a child, and then rebelled against the structure. Now you are looking for your own truths.
You don't have to throw out logic and thinking in order to have faith in God, and in Jesus Christ. You don't have to be a nutjob, and have a "real men love Jesus" sticker on your truck.
There is a lot to be said for intelligent, quiet, humble faith. Love for God that does not boast or yell from the Hilltops. There is a middle ground, where you can believe in God, but not lose yourself in the process.
Anyway, it just seems to me that people are presenting these issues as choice:
1. God is supreme and nothing else can explain anything else in the world
2. Science is the only way.

There are people who embrace both camps. Quietly accepting scientific evidence, knowing that God was, is, and always will be in control. Not understanding all the "ins and outs" of the Creation, universe, and life in general, but maintaining a Faith that it all was created by God. We know the earth is way older than 6000 years. But we also know that God's ways are so high above our ways, as the Heavens are above the Earth.
So please consider, not having to take it or leave it. There is a life in which you can have a respect for scientific advances, and a love for God, who made such advances possible.
Remember the story in which Jesus shows His wounds so that they may believe and He sais "Blessed are those who have NOT seen yet believe". Sorry, don't have the chapter/verse in front of me...but I'm sure someone will clarify If i have misquoted. Smiler
Anyway, to recap, you can believe in God and you can believe scientific advances. Faith in God does not equate becoming a "Sheeple". You have spirituality in you- it's just a matter of figuring it all out for yourselves.
You can be a Christian believer, full of spirituality, without being an extremist nut job bible thumper. In fact, the most Godly and devout Christians I have encountered have been quiet and humble in their Faith.
Smiler


It's OK, VP. I'm not condemning believers. I don't think thy're all crazy. There's maybe three or four who aren't. The crazy ones are obvious. They're the ones standing on hilltops in headrags shouting and waving AK-47s.
They're the ones out in the hills of West Virginia (used to live there-WOW!) waving snakes around and chugging strychnine.
They're the ones, who-like I suspect BeeGee is-getting old and scared and trying to cover all the bases as time draws near "just in case."

You are pretty much right about me being forced into Catholicism. I can pick on "CatLicks" because I was born into them-I was one. I had no choice at the time. My father dragged me to church every sunday, enrolled me in CCD classes after church and tried for years to get me to carry the whole guilt trip that's been laid on Catholics' backs for as long as anybody can remember. Y'know- that "S#!t happens because we deserve it" self-flagellation?
This guy who pounded into my head what is right and what is wrong. What is a mortal sin and what is a menial sin. This guy who (at least in my little kid eyes) was so tough he'd eat his own crap or chew off his own arm to avoid taking the easy way out of anything ("Never cop out! was his mantra)-ended up eating a 12-gauge shotgun just a couple days shy of his 75th birthday. You being a Catholic know that suicide is unforgiveable. Do not pass "Go", do not collect $200, straight into hell you go on the express elevator....

So much for his convictions. What value has all that "righteous Christian teaching" to me now?

"Do as I say, not as I do" was the message I learned from that.

The ones who are teaching it don't even follow it. At least not when they think nobody's watching. Hypocrites. You may think that my father's suicide pretty much predisposed me against belief in any religion-but that was just one of the nails in that particular coffin. I'm sure I'd have no problem with god were I to find that he does exist-it's his followers that creep the bejebus out of me.

I didn't rebel so much as I got completely disgusted with the Catholic church.

I mentioned awhile back that the pope (I think it was back in 2008?) had announced that the church was "updating" some sins to fit the times.

Of all the #%@$in' nerve.... (I'll cover my thoughts on this in another thread...)

Priests committting acts of sin that I don't even want to go into on this thread. against CHILDREN!!! ("Never before and never again will I love you with the intensity of a shepherd for his flock." (Galatians 13:4). Crap.

So much for taking THAT guys word for it. Yeah..I wanna believe in THAT s#!t. O-Tay.

I ran from any association with that bunch as fast as I could.

You know what? #@$%em. #@$%emall. They're defective and defective things get returned to their maker, right? If I had my way? Wanna know what happens if you touch a little boy in his no-no spot? *boom* headshot! It doesn't matter if you molest because of nature or nurture; we don't want your genes passed on. Eye for an Eye. Read your own testament, mother#@%&er.

Hmmm Baptist huh, what a moron? Tell me that the Baptist is the only true religion and you want to "save" me even though I am Catholic and confess my sins and ask forgiveness when ever I feel the need. You my friend win the prize *ding ding ding* everyone is going to hell unless of course you happen to be Baptist. Oh yeah and you HATE homosexuals, abortion, and premaritial sex, oh one more thing INDEPENDANT THOUGHT OF ANY KIND. You can go screw yourself while reading the bible. I have been to a few Baptist Churches and this is not always the case but for the most part you are all a bunch of sheep who pass judgement in the place of God for anyone different from you.

Jehovah's Witnesses believe a predetermined number of people will vanish into God's Kingdom at the same instant and the rest of us will be left behind to endure the tribulation (that's gonna suck). The Witnesses believe they are the only potential vanishers, but unfortunately the number of Witnesses today well exceeds said predertimined number (I think is 44,000 but not sure and don't feel like looking it). They also believe at the end of the tribulation the aforementioned vanishers are going to come back to earth and fight for our souls(yeah I read the Left Behind series). Funny thing, too. They're NOT a religion. They're a BUSINESS. Just ask 'em.
You guys don't recognize the flag of my country? The one I served to protect? The flag that flippin' ENABLES YOU TO PRACTICE YOUR BELIEF IN THE FIRST @$#&IN' PLACE!
Kiss my ass, you hypocrites.
Oh yeh, and pay your d##n taxes.

*Screaming like Sam Kinison*

The PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE CAN"T EVEN DECIDE WHAT IS RIGHT!!!! HOW THE HELL AM I SUPPOSED TO FIGURE IT OUT!???

I can't. I can only use what makes sense to me to decide what is right and good. Yeah, I came here wanting to speak to people about god and faith-hoping someone who's head wasn't screwed on sideways could possibly give me something I could DO something with. (Y'know, a reason why they believe-because I figure if I can figure out WHY people believe-then maybe I can work on making sense of the belief.)
Something I could learn. What the hell was I thinking?
If not for folks like you, VP and a couple others here- I'da left this bleating borg-fest shortly after getting here.

I'm reminded of a recent Shooter Jennings song. In it are lyrics that pretty much describe my belief.

"You don't have to read the good book/To be a good man just the same..."

That's exactly what I mean when I say that a man without religion is like a fish without a bicycle.

The thundering herd?

Pfft. And you tell me they're not crazy.

/shrug.
Last edited by Road Puppy
We might view religious activity as being composed of various groups: hereditary superstition (people who know the words and try to go through the motions, but are only there "because my family are long-time members and I do like the free weekly concert"; those who may or may not have brought in a specific tradition yet truly study the Gospel and try to live it with no need for DVDs and CDs from "love offerings" from the odd religious channels on the televisors, these people likely have no master caste of clergy/"leaders" who dictate in their sermons. Flat out insane people who are intertwined in some sort of Uber-Superiority with radical revisions as to not even be recognized as a religious group due to their odd unique and peculiar (in the Latinate as well as English meanings of unique and peculiar).
We could go on subdividing, but to paint all sects as crazy is simply incorrect. Even some odd little sects in Southern California might have a few functional members who scoff at old men who were frightened by a "homosexual" at an advanced age then a preacher, thus driving him into Catholicism and crystal ball gazing before his glorious newsletters to his FARTS (Friends And Really Touchingly naif Trainees).

Then there are true non-insane Christian who do "get it." They also live it.
Good post VP.

Puppy, I am sorry for your indoctrination into a warped view of faith. And I don't mean that it was Catholic, just the method used.
Please try to investigate it for yourself and know that not all people make judgments.

I think you are a great guy and I hope you find some peace. Always remember, 'The Church of What's Happening Now'! Smiler
Heh. Big Grin b50m: *a la Geraldine* "Don't fight th' feelin'.

VP: That didn't kill my faith. It was tired and on it's way out (for the reasons I stated here and elsewhere on this forum) long before my ol' man got high velocity lead poisoning.

Me and my father were never close. He threw me out when I was but a lad of 14. I'm 46 now. I DID however learn a lot from him. I don't think the lessons I learned were the ones he was intending to teach, though.

By the time he pulled his own plug-I hadn't seen or heard from him in 18 years. Not since I called him to let him know his granddaughter had been born. He could've cared less. He said he wasn't interested when I asked him if he'd like to meet her. Just a simple "Nope. Not interested." Nice guy, eh? Oh well. S#!t happens and then ya move on. No sense turning myself into a wreck over it. There's just too much life not to miss on account of a s#!thead.

Whatever doesn't kill me only makes me stronger, right? At least that's what the old warriors keep telling me. Big Grin

Yeah, I'll stick around and listen and every so often reach critical mass and aim the blunderbuss of incredulousness at a smack-tard every now and again. If you can tolerate it-I'll gladly oblige. Smiler
quote:
Originally posted by tinabeth:
Well said, veep. And yes, perhaps you could've saved yourself a lot of typing, but I'm glad you didn't. These are the exact same thoughts I've had while reading many a blog on here but never found a way/took the time to express it so eloquently. Thanks for a little common sense.


/me agrees with that statement pretty much. Yeah thanks, VP for trying to "keep it real." Smiler
Road Puppy the thing I have been taught all my life is that we can't listen to the people around us but we have to pick up the Bible and read it for ourselves and allow God to speak to us through it. I can sit here and tell you my beliefs but you know what Puppy? I am not perfect and anything I tell you or that I might say might be the one thing that would turn you away just that much more. I am human and I am flawed. Not only that I don't know what you need to hear spiritually. I can't fill your spiritual cup up in the way it needs to be filled. But if you will open your Bible up and read the book of John I believe you might find some of your answers and maybe even more. But you have to be open to God speaking to you. He can do that through His Word. From what I've gathered you are very educated and I probably don't need to tell you this next part but an easy translation would work best. Not the King James. I have been a Christian for almost 20 years and the King James is over my head (not slamming you King James lovers). I like the New Living Translation. Next get on youtube. There is this preacher named Francis Chan. He preaches out in California. He is a down to earth real fella. No frills kinda guy. I think you would like him. There are several clips on youtube of Francis Chan. I think you just might like him. But keep in mind he does like to challenge people. He doesn't believe in an easy religion. That is why I like him. Religion is not about sitting on our buff and spouting about why we are so great and why our church is so great. It is about getting down and dirty and giving it your all. It is not about me. He speaks the truth and I like it because he doesn't sugarcoat it. A preacher who does that is not one that I care to listen to. Well I wish you well in your search Road Puppy. Your post made my heart hurt and cry for the experiences you have had spiritually. Vp is right. Not all Christians are bad. Keep this verse in mind when you view Christians, "But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it." Mathew 7:14 In this verse I believe this is talking about the road to heaven. Not everyone who calls themself a Christian is one. Appearances can be deceiving but it is not my place to judge that person's heart but my God's. Know that I will be praying for you as you continue your searchSmiler
rolltidequeen, your post is one of the best I've read in a long time & though it wasn't meant for me, your compassion for Road Puppy touched me deeply.

Road Puppy, your post also touched my heart. I'm sorry your father wasn't the Dad he should have been. To show no interest in the birth of or meeting his granddaughter is tragic & he is the one that lost the most in that decision.

I was raised in a Baptist church, in a home with 2 very loving parents, & 6 siblings. My parents are no longer with me & would be sad to know my doubts of the existance of God.
I don't know the exact moment these doubts came upon me, there are too many reasons to count, but I know these doubts have increased over time.
Do I like the doubts that I have of Gods existance? No, but no one can show me any proof that He does. Reading a book of opinions written by several men hasn't done it.

In my opinion the COC believe they are the only true religion & the only ones going to Heaven.
(this is not meant to offend any COC here).

You said you came here wanting to speak to people about God & faith, hoping someone could possibly give you something you could do something with. I don't think you will, (though for your sake I hope you do) because I've looked for a long time...still nothing.

People tell me it's all about faith, the faith of a mustard seed. I think faith is something we tell ourselves we have when we really don't. It's all about lying to ourself, that after awhile the lie (faith) comes much easier to believe until we don't question it anymore.

You mentioned Hypocrites....of which I have a huge problem with. Trouble is, I was one myself at one time, & of that, I am very ashamed of.
I know many of them personally. Being a Christian is something they do on days that the church doors are open.
I was going to church because my husband wanted me to so I played the "good little Christian". It got to be too heavy a load to carry so I stopped & haven't been in a church in years & have no desire to return.

I sincerely hope you find what you're looking for. I live daily knowing that when I die, I will go to Hell. Not a good feeling but I refuse to lie to myself.

I'm sorry that this post is so long & I hope you will take the time to read it all but I'll understand if you don't. This kind of reminds me of those long post that Bill Gray writes which I don't bother reading.
I have the feeling you're a really nice guy & I wish you the best.
Last edited by semiannualchick
We might add that religion is a great place for "insanity" to flourish, right alongside certain conspiracy theory followers. Both allow larger groups to flourish and then divide into purity and time and effort camps until so subdivided, they are able to claim absolute truth in their camps to then preach the purified "original" theories as reformed yet claimed as original. Seventh Day Adventists v. Jehovah's Witnesses; Stalin v. Trotsky; Randroids v. Mere Libertarians, etc. ad nauseum.
quote:
Originally posted by Aude Sapere:
We might add that religion is a great place for "insanity" to flourish, right alongside certain conspiracy theory followers. Both allow larger groups to flourish and then divide into purity and time and effort camps until so subdivided, they are able to claim absolute truth in their camps to then preach the purified "original" theories as reformed yet claimed as original. Seventh Day Adventists v. Jehovah's Witnesses; Stalin v. Trotsky; Randroids v. Mere Libertarians, etc. ad nauseum.


Audy,
I’m curious.
Are you fer it or agin it; religion that is?

Your momentum of one cause and the position you take ,it seems, are impossible to reckon simultaneously.

I myself, sometime leave my options open in case one position catches-a-fire; the leap to the other results in the least injury to myself.
quote:
Originally posted by tinabeth:
semi, I cried for you. I truly hope you find whatever it is you are looking for -- peace, hope, faith, salvation. I pray your soul is not ****ed to hell. I'd really like to see you on a forum someday in Heaven... where we will only have good things to say to and about one another. In His love,


Don't cry for me, sweetie. I'm not worth one single tear that you shed. I have found what I was looking for. Being able to face the truth, & not lie to myself or anyone else about where I'm going when death comes.
Semi,
Don't be so sure you are going to Hell. I don't think God condemns someone just because they are confused or uncertain of their faith.
I also don't believe it takes sitting in a building called a church 3 times a week to earn your free pass through the Pearly Gates.

But then I'm one of those 'NEW AGE God actually loves everyone' Christians.

If we both end up in Hell, my treat for smores and hot German beer!
quote:
Originally posted by semiannualchick:
I sincerely hope you find what you're looking for. I live daily knowing that when I die, I will go to Hell. Not a good feeling, but I refuse to lie to myself.

I'm sorry that this post is so long & I hope you will take the time to read it all but I'll understand if you don't. This kind of reminds me of those long post that Bill Gray writes which I don't bother reading.

Hi Chick,

If you were watching a building burn, ferocious fires jumping far into the sky -- would you tell yourself, "I know I should not walk into that building, I know I will regret it -- but, I am going to walk in anyway."? Would you consciously, purposely walk into that burning building?

That is basically what you are telling us in your statement above. If you know hell is real; if you know hell is eternal suffering; if you know that YOU can choose to NOT go to hell -- why would you choose to go anyway?

You tell us, "Not a good feeling, but I refuse to lie to myself."

What is the lie? You tell us you know hell is real and that you can avoid it; what is the lie? If knowing you are going to hell is not a good feeling -- why not change directions? No one is forcing you to send yourself to hell; no one is forcing you to reject God. This is a path YOU are choosing for yourself.

And, why? Just to prove to Christians that you do not have to listen to them? Just to spite Christians? You are an intelligent person. Would you cut off your arm just to get even with me for telling you about God?

When you tell us, "This kind of reminds me of those long post that Bill Gray writes which I don't bother reading" -- that is basically what you are saying, "I am going to hell just to spite Bill Gray!"

Chick, I am sure you see the insanity in such an attitude. Don't listen to God because of Bill Gray; don't listen to God because of your husband or anyone else. Do it for yourself. In the end, it will boil down to YOU and GOD, no one else. And, your eternal destiny will depend upon one question He will ask you, "What did you do with my Son, Jesus Christ? Did you honor Him -- or did you spit upon Him?"

Of course, when He asks this question of you -- He already knows the answer. Yet, you still have time to change that answer. Do this for yourself; not to spite anyone nor to impress anyone -- just for your OWN personal eternal salvation.

Chick, I am not writing this to chastise or admonish you, nor to put you down. I am writing this because I sincerely care about you and your eternal life. I want, very much, to walk and talk with you in heaven one day.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by semiannualchick:


In my opinion the COC believe they are the only true religion & the only ones going to Heaven.
(this is not meant to offend any COC here).


This used to be taught in every CoC. not so much anymore, because they realized it was driving people away.
nowdays you might hear it in some of the mroe hardcore conservative churches, but most have given the idea up.. or at least given up preaching it..

quote:

I sincerely hope you find what you're looking for. I live daily knowing that when I die, I will go to Hell. Not a good feeling but I refuse to lie to myself.



Question:
this i don't understand...
i mean no offense, i just don't understand it.
so, you're saying that you do believe in hell and satan and eternal punishment, but not in God, heaven and eternal salvation?

or did i miss something?
quote:
Originally posted by thenagel:
quote:
Originally posted by semiannualchick:


In my opinion the COC believe they are the only true religion & the only ones going to Heaven.
(this is not meant to offend any COC here).


This used to be taught in every CoC. not so much anymore, because they realized it was driving people away.
nowdays you might hear it in some of the mroe hardcore conservative churches, but most have given the idea up.. or at least given up preaching it..


There's that "convenience" thing again....

quote:

I sincerely hope you find what you're looking for. I live daily knowing that when I die, I will go to Hell. Not a good feeling but I refuse to lie to myself.


quote:

Question:
this i don't understand...
i mean no offense, i just don't understand it.
so, you're saying that you do believe in hell and satan and eternal punishment, but not in God, heaven and eternal salvation?

or did i miss something?



Hmmmm...... Good point, Nagel. I'm curious....?
quote:
Originally posted by b50m:
Semi,
Don't be so sure you are going to Hell. I don't think God condemns someone just because they are confused or uncertain of their faith.
I also don't believe it takes sitting in a building called a church 3 times a week to earn your free pass through the Pearly Gates.

But then I'm one of those 'NEW AGE God actually loves everyone' Christians.

If we both end up in Hell, my treat for smores and hot German beer!


Why, pray tell, are you so sure semi has resigned herself to hell? It's a huge presumption on your part.

Mark Twain, as he often did, said it better than I could: When I die, I'll go to the same place I was before I was born. I was there for billions of years and suffered not the least inconvenience for it.


BA
Hey chick...I am not ignoring you. I have been working on a response. I have been a little down and discouraged lately with a situation in my life and I want to give you a good response. I feel you deserve a better post then I can give you right now. But I want to give you a post to let you know you have been a constant on my mind for DAYS. I love your post and I have a few good things I want to share with you. Hang in there and give me a day or two. And girl I sure do have hope for you. Your post is not so different then many other people who live the Christian life who feel JUST like you! So be encouraged and know I will continue to be praying for you! Yes even though I haven't met you I WILL be praying! Smiler
Chick,
All i can say is that even the most devout Christians sometimes have doubts. It would be contrary to our very nature, if we didn't every once in a while say "is God real"? "am i doing the right thing?", "is this all a collossal waste of time? "

Having doubts does not mean you are condemned to hell. It means you are human, with a thinking, rationale brain. Faith is very demanding- it requires us to believe in what we cannot see, and take a leap from logical and "concrete" thinking. Its tough. I, for one, have had dark days of doubt. I'm sure I'll have more...
But I do trust in the Mercy of Jesus, and hope that I may one day be made worthy of the promises of Christ. I pray the same for you.
veep.
quote:
Originally posted by semiannualchick:
I sincerely hope you find what you're looking for. I live daily knowing that when I die, I will go to Hell. Not a good feeling, but I refuse to lie to myself.

I'm sorry that this post is so long & I hope you will take the time to read it all but I'll understand if you don't. This kind of reminds me of those long post that Bill Gray writes which I don't bother reading.



quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Hi Chick,
If you were watching a building burn, ferocious fires jumping far into the sky -- Would you consciously, purposely walk into that burning building?

If you know hell is real; if you know hell is eternal suffering; if you know that YOU can choose to NOT go to hell -- why would you choose to go anyway?

You tell us, "Not a good feeling, but I refuse to lie to myself."

What is the lie? You tell us you know hell is real and that you can avoid it; what is the lie?

And, why? Just to prove to Christians that you do not have to listen to them? Just to spite Christians? You are an intelligent person. Would you cut off your arm just to get even with me for telling you about God?

When you tell us, "This kind of reminds me of those long post that Bill Gray writes which I don't bother reading" -- that is basically what you are saying, "I am going to hell just to spite Bill Gray!"

Chick, I am sure you see the insanity in such an attitude. In the end, it will boil down to YOU and GOD, no one else.
Of course, when He asks this question of you -- He already knows the answer.
Bill


Would I consciously, purposely walk into that burning building? Of course not. But the decision is not mine to make in going to Hell. Do I believe in God, & all that does with it? My raising says yes, the person I am today, questions. If I don’t live the way God intended, then Hell is my only option & I refuse to live it. I tried it & was a miserable person. I don’t believe in once saved, always saved. I know the scriptures you’ve given that tells you that you are, but there are scriptures that contradict that.
It’s not worth discussing because you have your beliefs of how you see it & I have mine,
& neither of us is going to convince the other.
You may say I was never saved, but that’s not your judgment call. I honestly believe a person can be lost again. I most certainly do not believe in eternal salvation.

I don’t know why you would say it’s just to prove to Christians that I do not have to listen to them. Just to spite Christians? I am totally confused where you got those thoughts.
I don’t have to prove anything to anyone, only to myself. My husband says he’s saved & he attends church. That’s his choice, just as I make my choices. We agreed not to discuss it anymore because it was causing problems in our marriage.

Would I cut off my arm just to get even with you for telling me about God?
"I am going to hell just to spite Bill Gray!"

Big Grin
Those don't even deserve an answer, but I'll go there anyway. Those 2 statements made me laugh. Why in the world would you have anything to do with my choices???
I made the statement about your long post because they are just that…long.
You tend to repeat yourself in most of them, & they’re just to long to hold a person’s interest. At least mine anyway, & I know the scriptures anyway.

I don’t see my attitude as insane at all. I refuse to lie to myself that God is so pleased with me that I will be allowed into Heaven.

Yes, it will boil down to me & God, & no one else. If He truly exist, then He already knows where I’m going, as do I.

You have to remember that my statements about God & Heaven is made on the condition IF they exist.
quote:
Originally posted by thenagel:
Question:
this i don't understand...
i mean no offense, i just don't understand it.
so, you're saying that you do believe in hell and satan and eternal punishment, but not in God, heaven and eternal salvation?

or did i miss something?


quote:
Originally posted by Road Puppy:
Hmmmm...... Good point, Nagel. I'm curious....?


No offense taken, Nagel. I’m sorry to confuse you & Puppy. My statements about Hell, Satan, & God, etc. is based on IF they exist.
I'm not sure.
quote:
Originally posted by rolltidequeen:
Hey chick...I am not ignoring you. I have been working on a response. I have been a little down and discouraged lately with a situation in my life and I want to give you a good response. I feel you deserve a better post then I can give you right now. But I want to give you a post to let you know you have been a constant on my mind for DAYS. I love your post and I have a few good things I want to share with you. Hang in there and give me a day or two. And girl I sure do have hope for you. Your post is not so different then many other people who live the Christian life who feel JUST like you! So be encouraged and know I will continue to be praying for you! Yes even though I haven't met you I WILL be praying! Smiler


Thank you but don't worry about me. I'm sorry that you've been down & discouraged. Just concentrate on you & making things better. That's much more important than me.
I wish you peace & that everything works out.
quote:
Originally posted by b50m:
Semi,
Don't be so sure you are going to Hell. I don't think God condemns someone just because they are confused or uncertain of their faith.
I also don't believe it takes sitting in a building called a church 3 times a week to earn your free pass through the Pearly Gates.

But then I'm one of those 'NEW AGE God actually loves everyone' Christians.

If we both end up in Hell, my treat for smores and hot German beer!



I don’t know much about the “New Age” but I do know that the bible teaches we are to comfort one another, build up one another, confess our sins to one another, pray for one another, etc. This is done with the gathering of believers, (church).
The Bible actually warns its readers against “forsaking the assembly of yourselves together”.

Now, I'm quoting a book that is the opinion of several men. Each person has to worship in which is comfortable for them.
I got burnt out on church a long time ago & have no desire to return.

Smores sound good. I've never had German beer, especially hot beer. I'll just have a Bloody Mary. Big Grin
quote:
Originally posted by semiannualchick:
quote:
Originally posted by thenagel:
Question:
this i don't understand...
i mean no offense, i just don't understand it.
so, you're saying that you do believe in hell and satan and eternal punishment, but not in God, heaven and eternal salvation?

or did i miss something?


quote:
Originally posted by Road Puppy:
Hmmmm...... Good point, Nagel. I'm curious....?


No offense taken, Nagel. I’m sorry to confuse you & Puppy. My statements about Hell, Satan, & God, etc. is based on IF they exist.
I'm not sure.


Understood, Chick.
No problem.
to be honest i spent a long time finding it far easier to believe in satan than in god. satan gives us proof every day of his existance, while god remains mute.

you don't see ' officer finds 4 year old minutes before death and saves him"
you see ' dead child found in car'

i can't answer any questions about why this is, with out guessing.
i will say this:
i do believe that god has a plan and a purpose for each and every one of us.
i do believe that there was a reason that 4 year old died in that car, and that it wasn't done from a malicious or hateful reason.

but at this time, we cannot understand what the reasons are.

that's not a cop out - how long did we know that microscopic critters existed, before we understood what they did or what they were for, that some were beneficial and some were deadly?
how long did we know about radioactivity before we finally understood that it could be harmfull?

right now, we aren't anymore capable of understanding His purpose than george washington was able to understand genetic code.

someday, whether in this life or the next, we will understand His reasons and slap our foreheads and go " Ohhhhh.. of course!"
until then, we just have to go 'Duuuh" and trust Him while we wait for answers.
quote:
Originally posted by semiannualchick:
quote:
Originally posted by b50m:
Semi,
Don't be so sure you are going to Hell. I don't think God condemns someone just because they are confused or uncertain of their faith.
I also don't believe it takes sitting in a building called a church 3 times a week to earn your free pass through the Pearly Gates.

But then I'm one of those 'NEW AGE God actually loves everyone' Christians.

If we both end up in Hell, my treat for smores and hot German beer!



I don’t know much about the “New Age” but I do know that the bible teaches we are to comfort one another, build up one another, confess our sins to one another, pray for one another, etc. This is done with the gathering of believers, (church).
The Bible actually warns its readers against “forsaking the assembly of yourselves together”.

Now, I'm quoting a book that is the opinion of several men. Each person has to worship in which is comfortable for them.
I got burnt out on church a long time ago & have no desire to return.

Smores sound good. I've never had German beer, especially hot beer. I'll just have a Bloody Mary. Big Grin



Chick, while I do believe that there are valid reasons for Christians to attend Church it certainly doesn't save you nor is it required for salvation. Unfortunately many people "use" Church. They go to Church on Sunday, some Saturday, etc and set through a worship service feeling vindicated that those things they did, during the week, are now forgiven. They have paid their penitence. Catholics have confession but protestants (many anyway) go to Church out of obligation in feeling that it's required for them to feel their sins are truly forgotten and forgiven yet they continue to live the same lives each week and relate to people in the same ways. They do turn many off. Many others spend time in Church attempting to "learn about God" they set in Sunday School or Training, they listen to a Preacher, or Priest, and that suffices for their "Bible Study" and after they leave, during the week, they never pick up a Bible to read, they hardly pray, unless on Sunday and their understanding of God, of God's laws and what a Christian should or should not do is not from the Bible itself, not from God as much as it is from the Preacher or Teacher who most likely are just as sinful as they are and in need of forgiveness. No human is perfect.

That said, a Christian's responsibility, in order to maintain a "right" relation with God is keeping the avenues of Communication open with God. Our avenue of Communication with God is literally God's Holy Spirit that we have inside of us, that was given to us, by God, upon our Salvation. When we Christians live a life of sin, a life against what God would want us to live, then we "Grieve" the Holy Spirit. We suppress the Holy Spirit and our Christian lives can become very unsatisfied and unhappy Christian lives even though we are saved. In order to maintain a right relationship with God, our Father, through His Holy Spirit we are to maintain our prayer Life ( as it is the Holy Spirit that assist us and helps us pray to God), also we are to maintain study in God's Word, the Bible. We read and God's Holy Spirit again helps us understand the truth of God's word. God's truth for US. His special purpose and mission for each specific Christian and that varies from person to person as God deals with people differently.

Romans 8:1-17 (CEV) 1 If you belong to Christ Jesus, you won't be punished. 2 The Holy Spirit will give you life that comes from Christ Jesus and will set you free from sin and death. 3 The Law of Moses cannot do this, because our selfish desires make the Law weak. But God set you free when he sent his own Son to be like us sinners and to be a sacrifice for our sin. God used Christ's body to condemn sin. 4 He did this, so that we would do what the Law commands by obeying the Spirit instead of our own desires. 5 People who are ruled by their desires think only of themselves. Everyone who is ruled by the Holy Spirit thinks about spiritual things. 6 If our minds are ruled by our desires, we will die. But if our minds are ruled by the Spirit, we will have life and peace. 7 Our desires fight against God, because they do not and cannot obey God's laws. 8 If we follow our desires, we cannot please God. 9 You are no longer ruled by your desires, but by God's Spirit, who lives in you. People who don't have the Spirit of Christ in them don't belong to him. 10 But Christ lives in you. So you are alive because God has accepted you, even though your bodies must die because of your sins. 11 Yet God raised Jesus to life! God's Spirit now lives in you, and he will raise you to life by his Spirit. 12 My dear friends, we must not live to satisfy our desires. 13 If you do, you will die. But you will live, if by the help of God's Spirit you say "No" to your desires. 14 Only those people who are led by God's Spirit are his children. 15 God's Spirit doesn't make us slaves who are afraid of him. Instead, we become his children and call him our Father. 16 God's Spirit makes us sure that we are his children. 17 His Spirit lets us know that together with Christ we will be given what God has promised. We will also share in the glory of Christ, because we have suffered with him.

also regarding our communication/prayers with and to God

Romans 8:23-30 (CEV) 23 The Spirit makes us sure about what we will be in the future. But now we groan silently, while we wait for God to show that we are his children. This means that our bodies will also be set free. 24 And this hope is what saves us. But if we already have what we hope for, there is no need to keep on hoping. 25 However, we hope for something we have not yet seen, and we patiently wait for it. 26 In certain ways we are weak, but the Spirit is here to help us. For example, when we don't know what to pray for, the Spirit prays for us in ways that cannot be put into words. 27 All of our thoughts are known to God. He can understand what is in the mind of the Spirit, as the Spirit prays for God's people. 28 We know that God is always at work for the good of everyone who loves him. They are the ones God has chosen for his purpose, 29 and he has always known who his chosen ones would be. He had decided to let them become like his own Son, so that his Son would be the first of many children. 30 God then accepted the people he had already decided to choose, and he has shared his glory with them.


Church is supposed to be a meeting place where like minded Christians meet, learn, and support each other. Where we go to "recharge" our spiritual batteries so to say and be acquainted with other Christians who also understand that times when we are down and the times that we are not quite having those mountain top experiences. I would urge you first reacquaint yourself with God again then, and only then, allow His Holy Spirit to lead you to the place of Worship that he would have you participate and serve in.

Hope this helps.
quote:
Originally posted by thenagel:
Question:
this i don't understand...
i mean no offense, i just don't understand it.
so, you're saying that you do believe in hell and satan and eternal punishment, but not in God, heaven and eternal salvation?

or did i miss something?


quote:
Originally posted by Road Puppy:
Hmmmm...... Good point, Nagel. I'm curious....?


quote:
Originally posted by semiannualchick:
No offense taken, Nagel. I’m sorry to confuse you & Puppy. My statements about Hell, Satan, & God, etc. is based on IF they exist.
I'm not sure.


quote:
Originally posted by thenagel: Understood, Chick.
No problem.
to be honest i spent a long time finding it far easier to believe in satan than in god. satan gives us proof every day of his existance, while god remains mute.

you don't see ' officer finds 4 year old minutes before death and saves him"
you see ' dead child found in car'


Good point....I never thought about it being easier to believe in satan than in God because we see proof of him every day. (IF either of them exist).

I agree with your point about the little children. I often wonder why God would allow the rape, beating, & torture of such an
innocent little baby/child.

My Daddy used to often say we are not to question God, that we will understand in the by & by. I would like to understand it now.
quote:
Originally posted by semiannualchick:
quote:
Originally posted by thenagel:
Question:
this i don't understand...
i mean no offense, i just don't understand it.
so, you're saying that you do believe in hell and satan and eternal punishment, but not in God, heaven and eternal salvation?

or did i miss something?


quote:
Originally posted by Road Puppy:
Hmmmm...... Good point, Nagel. I'm curious....?


quote:
Originally posted by semiannualchick:
No offense taken, Nagel. I’m sorry to confuse you & Puppy. My statements about Hell, Satan, & God, etc. is based on IF they exist.
I'm not sure.


quote:
Originally posted by thenagel: Understood, Chick.
No problem.
to be honest i spent a long time finding it far easier to believe in satan than in god. satan gives us proof every day of his existance, while god remains mute.

you don't see ' officer finds 4 year old minutes before death and saves him"
you see ' dead child found in car'


Good point....I never thought about it being easier to believe in satan than in God because we see proof of him every day. (IF either of them exist).

I agree with your point about the little children. I often wonder why God would allow the rape, beating, & torture of such an
innocent little baby/child.

My Daddy used to often say we are not to question God, that we will understand in the by & by. I would like to understand it now.


OK, from a purely logical point of view- Who says satan had anything to do with what happened to that child?

From what I can see it was just a bad judgement call on the part of the child (due to the child's lack of life experience and perception of reality)-possibly reinforced by another bad call on the part of the parents (leaving the child unattended/unaccounted for).

The devil didn't make the parents ignore the child and didn't make the child decide to climb into the car on a hot day to take a nap.

No grinning demons-just bad choices.

How about all those times when you DO hear about the cop saving somebody right before death? It happens a lot.

Like plane crashes-You don't hear about the thousands that take off and land safely all day long... You only hear about the ones that fly into the ground. Pilot error or equipment malfunction-not god or satan.
You could call what happened to that kid "pilot error." The trouble with us humans is our operating system is forced to run before it is finished being written. Wink

I DO agree with you on wanting to understand it now. No disrespect to your dad intended, but 'by-and-by' is too late for me, too.

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