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Hi to my Forum Friends,

When I began the discussion "Should We All Worship The Same Way?" -- I wrote: "Should all Christians worship as we do in the Baptist churches? Should all Christians worship as they do in Pentecostal churches? Should all Christian churches have bishops and priests who wear robes and lead in liturgical rituals? Should all churches sing hymns -- or is it okay to sing praise songs and choruses -- or should all Christian churches ban all music as some do?

I know, you think I am being silly. No, what I am really saying is that HOW we worship God is not as important as -- THAT we worship God. What makes one person feel close to God -- is not necessarily what makes another feel close to God."


And, to this, my Forum Friend, Crusty, responded, "And yet, you repeatedly bash those who DO worship differently than you. Your hypocrisy has no bounds."

My dear Crusty old Friend, I draw the line only when that worship becomes non-Christian -- as in cult churches such as the Jehovah's Witnesses, the Mormon church, Sun Myung Moon's Unification church, the Unitarian Universalist church, New Age churches, etc. With these, I will warn people about their teachings.

While I do not hold to, nor practice, many of the doctrines taught and practiced in many of the Liberal Theology churches, i.e., Roman Catholic, Episcopalian, Presbyterian, etc. -- I do not say they are not Christian.

In both the Conservative Christian churches and in the Liberal Theology churches -- you will find folks who are saved, born again Christians -- and you will find many folks who are only wearing the "Christian hat" for the day.

Why is this? Well, we often find folks who go to church to be socially acceptable; some to network, farm, for their business enterprises; some just because their life is so boring, they will do anything that is different.

And, there are many who are not yet born again (John 3:3) because their church's doctrines do not teach this. There are Liberal churches which teach that folks are saved only through that church; some which teach that folks are saved or lost only by the frequency of their church attendance and participating in their church's sacraments; and others that will teach that folks are saved only if they give sufficient tithing to that church.

No, my Friend, the Bible tells us, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9).

And, it tells us, "Jesus answered and said to him, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God'" (John 3:3).

So, if a person is saved, born again, by grace through faith -- that person is my Christian brother or sister. The fact that I may worship in a Conservative Theology church and he/she may worship in a Liberal Theology church -- does not affect our Christian salvation.

However, we in the Conservative Christian faith will have a more comfortable life; since we do KNOW that we have salvation, eternal life, eternal security in Jesus Christ -- we can weather the storms of life looking ahead to the hope we have in Him.

While, on the other hand, our Christian brothers and sisters following the teachings of Liberal Theology -- have no eternal peace, no eternal security -- for they DO NOT KNOW they have eternal life and DO NOT BELIEVE the promise Jesus Christ gave us in John 6:47, "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes HAS eternal life."

Crusty, thank you for you comment; for it gave me an opportunity to better explain our Christian faith to our Forum Friends.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
While, on the other hand, our Christian brothers and sisters following the teachings of Liberal Theology -- have no eternal peace, no eternal security -- for they DO NOT KNOW they have eternal life and DO NOT BELIEVE the promise Jesus Christ gave us in John 6:47, "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes HAS eternal life."




Here you go again.....you have no idea what these people believe.....you put words in people's mouth and try to bring them off as you conceive them to be....your narrow-minded perception of things bugs me because you embrace it with no factual relevance
quote:
Originally posted by mamyliga:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
While, on the other hand, our Christian brothers and sisters following the teachings of Liberal Theology -- have no eternal peace, no eternal security -- for they DO NOT KNOW they have eternal life and DO NOT BELIEVE the promise Jesus Christ gave us in John 6:47, "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes HAS eternal life."

Here you go again.....you have no idea what these people believe.....you put words in people's mouth and try to bring them off as you conceive them to be....your narrow-minded perception of things bugs me because you embrace it with no factual relevance

Hi Liga,

Don't take my word for it. Ask any of your Liberal Theology friends if they KNOW they have eternal security in Jesus Christ and WILL go to heaven when they die. If you find any who say YES, please let me know.

Ask them if they believe the promise Jesus Christ gives to all believers in John 6:47, "Truly, truly, I tell you, he who believes HAS eternal life."

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Originally posted by Sofa King:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
My dear Crusty old Friend, I draw the line only when that worship becomes non-Christian -- as in cult churches such as the Jehovah's Witnesses, the Mormon church, Sun Myung Moon's Unification church, the Unitarian Universalist church, New Age churches, etc. With these, I will warn people about their teachings.

Such BS. You are critical of EVERYONE, Bill. You judged me for being an episcopalian and you have done the same to Aude (whatever). Get the danged beam out of your eye!

Hi Sofa,

Are you Episcopalian -- or are you Christian? Which comes first for you?

Are you an Episcopalian by profession of faith to Jesus Christ, and Him alone -- or are you an Episcopalian by birth?

As for me, I am a Christian -- albeit, a Baptist flavored Christian. But, Christian first and foremost.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Are you Episcopalian -- or are you Christian? Which comes first for you?


This is the outrageous stuff that gets me so ticked.
The two are not mutually exclusive.That's like the day you were demanding I tell you what I look to first: the bible or the catechism.
Not everyone supports your "sola scriptura" extreme views. And that's not necessarily a bad thing....
quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray to Sofa:
Are you Episcopalian -- or are you Christian? Which comes first for you?

This is the outrageous stuff that gets me so ticked. The two are not mutually exclusive. That's like the day you were demanding I tell you what I look to first: the bible or the catechism. Not everyone supports your "sola scriptura" extreme views. And that's not necessarily a bad thing....

Hi VP,

You tell me, "The two are not mutually exclusive."

That is true. However a person can be one without being the other. A person can be an Episcopalian, a Baptist, a Roman Catholic -- and not be a Christian believer. This is why I asked the question. First, a person should be a Christian; then, he/she can wear or not wear, the label of a denomination or church. So, yes, it is always appropriate to ask if a person is a Christian believer.

Then, you say, "Not everyone supports your "sola scriptura" extreme views."

That is also true. Those who do support "Sola Scriptura" -- by Scripture Alone, are Conservative Christians. Those who do not support "Sola Scriptura" -- by Scripture Alone, follow a Liberal Theology.

Finally, you say, "And that's not necessarily a bad thing..."

Not too sure about that. Scripture tells us, "All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work" ( 2 Timothy 3:16-17).

So, since all Scripture is inspired by God; I do believe He gave man His full revelation for salvation and for living a Christian life. Since this is His FULL revelation to man, i.e., all Scripture is inspired by God -- why not believe Him? Do you feel that God is not capable of giving His full revelation to man? Does man have to finish what God started? This is what man is doing when he feels that he must add Tradition to Scripture -- and he magnifies his error when he place Tradition in authority above Scripture.

If you say that your church does not place Tradition in higher authority than Scripture -- then, why add Tradition? Was God not capable of doing a complete work?

This is where one wanders into territory occupied by folks like Sun Myung Moon -- who claims that he and his wife have been given the task of finishing the job which Jesus Christ started but did not finish. On the cross, Jesus said, "It is finished!" (John 19:30). Yet, Moon tells us that it was not finished and he has been sent to finish the job of salvation. In other words, as He hang dying on the cross for our sins -- Jesus Lied! He did -- if we are to believe Moon.

And, if you say that our revelation from God is NOT "Sola Scriptura" -- NOT by Scripture Alone -- you are saying that God lied in 2 Timothy 3:16-17.

Of course, the way you justify saying this is to declare that the Bible was only written by men and not God. Thus, you are not held to the authority of the Bible. Yet, if you say that, then once again you are saying that God lied when He authored the words, "All Scripture is inspired by God."

Do you see the dilemma, my Friend? If you say the doctrine of "Sola Scriptura" is not true -- you are doing the exact same thing as Sun Myung Moon -- calling God a liar.

So, I feel very comfortable saying that I am a Christian believer -- and that I believe the Bible is the inspired, inerrant, literal Written Word of God.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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all i'm going to say is this:
of course not all churches are christian.
but, i'll go with what you meant and not what you said.

many churches claim adherance to christianity.
many people claim the title of Christian.
i have found, with no exceptions, that the people who claim to be christian the most often and the loudest are the farthest from the words that christ taught us.

and with that said, it's time for the humor part of our show:

1- there are three unbreakable rules to recognition in religions - Jewish people do not recognize Jesus as the Messiah. Protestants do not recognize the Pope as the leader of the Christian faith.
Baptists do not recognize each other in the liquor store.

2 -
I was walking across a bridge one day, and I saw a man standing
on the edge, about to jump off. So I ran over and said "Stop!
don't do it!"
"Why shouldn't I?" he said.
I said, "Well, there's so much to live for!"
He said, "Like what?"
I said, "Well...are you religious or atheist?"
He said, "Religious."
I said, "Me too! Are you christian or muslim?"
He said,"Christian."
I said, "Me too! Are you catholic or protestant?"
He said, "Protestant."
I said, "Me too! Are you episcopalian or baptist?"
He said, "Baptist!"
I said,"Wow! Me too! Are you baptist church of god or
baptist church of the lord?"
He said, "Baptist church of god!"
I said, "Me too! Are you original baptist church of god,
or are you reformed baptist church of god?"
He said,"Reformed Baptist church of god!"
I said, "Me too! Are you reformed baptist church of god,
reformation of 1879, or reformed baptist church of god,
reformation of 1915?"
He said, "Reformed baptist church of god, reformation of 1915!"
I said, "Die, heretic scum", and pushed him off.

< not meant to offend anyone except bill. if anyone else is offended i apologize>
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:

Of course, the way you justify saying this is to declare that the Bible was only written by men and not God. Thus, you are not held to the authority of the Bible. Yet, if you say that, then once again you are saying that God lied when He authored the words, "All Scripture is inspired by God."
Bill


dang it. i guess i'm gonna say this too.

read it again bill.

if the bible was written by men, then they wrote the bit where it says that it was inspired by god as well.
to quote my 11 year old daughter

Duh!

i'm not calling god a liar, i'm calling you and other people who use religion as a blunt weapon liars
An Episcopalian or a Christian first? That is the oddest thing I have ever had posed to me. Episcopalians are Christians by definition. Orthodox Christianity is orthodox Christianity. I became an Episcopalian when I was in the Navy and stationed at the National Reactor Site out in the desert near Idaho Falls. The choices in that forsaken landscape were a holy rolly fun house, many, many Mormenm, or the mother of my own religious upbringing, Methodism, aka Anglicanisnm.

Had they a UMC church, CME, or AME I would have worshiped there. I liked the theology as it was so similar with Methodism, and then was led by a Protestant chaplain for another year or so who was an Episcopalian for whom I studied a great deal. By the way, I did two years under the Jesuits at Creighton when I went back to college, now those guys can preach and teach. But no, I was confirmed by the Bishop of Bethlehem who happened to be vacationing in South Hampton. I watch ETWN all the time, especially when do the lives of the saints. I just do not like to hoot nor to holler, have loud guitfiddles in the church house and preaching to the choir, so I'll stick with orthodox Christianity and enjoy my highly educated clergy preach a nice Gospel sermon, not one of speculation on prophecy and why one should vote Republican or whatever it is that the minority sects do.

How did you turn from Ascended Masters and EST or whatever soothsaying it was you once practiced to funnymendaltism and Soothsaying with Daniel and Revelation, by the way?
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Originally posted by Aude Sapere:
An Episcopalian or a Christian first? That is the oddest thing I have ever had posed to me. Episcopalians are Christians by definition.

Hi Neal/Aude,

Not true, my Friend. No more than being a Baptist -- or Roman Catholic -- or Methodist -- makes one a Christian.

I can promise you that in all Episcopalian, Baptist, Roman Catholic, Methodist, et al, churches -- there are many who are members who are NOT Christians.

How about you? Are you absolutely certain that you are saved and WILL go to heaven when you die? I am!

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Indeed, Billy, one is brought to mind of Our Lord rebuking folks saying that children cried for hunger and then giving them rocks. One is reminded on the sin of Simon Magus in trying to buy the apostolic blessing of the Holy Spirit, and of not all who call Him Lord shall enter heaven. There is also the Pharisee who had his servant blow a horn and boast when he gave alms.

One is equally reminded of an old story about a wolf in sheep's clothes.
quote:
Originally posted by Aude Sapere:
Indeed, Billy, one is brought to mind of Our Lord rebuking folks saying that children cried for hunger and then giving them rocks. One is reminded on the sin of Simon Magus in trying to buy the apostolic blessing of the Holy Spirit, and of not all who call Him Lord shall enter heaven. There is also the Pharisee who had his servant blow a horn and boast when he gave alms.

One is equally reminded of an old story about a wolf in sheep's clothes.

Hi Neal/Aude,

Are you saying that being an Episcopalian -- MAKES one a Christian?

Are ALL Episcopalians Christians?

Was old King Henry VIII, who founded the Anglican/Episcopalian churches -- a Christian?

Just curious.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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