OC Couple Threatened With $500-Per-Meeting Fines For Home Bible Study

Simple remedy: Move to where it is legal.

"The Fromm case further involves regular meetings on Sunday mornings and Thursday afternoons with up to 50 people, "

 I'd certainly think that Christians AND us rational people would have a problem with that big of a party twice a week.  These idiots are conducting church services, not a little bible gathering.

It's interesting how they buried that comment waaaay down towards the end of the piece.  

Wonder who & why, out of those 50 people, told they were studying the Bible?

But, IF those were birthday parties, parties to watch football or boxing EVERY SATURDAY, or, maybe, swinger's parties -- YOU would have no complaint -- right?  Your only complaint is that Christians are gathering in a PRIVATE HOME to fellowship and study God's Word -- right?

What happened to your preaching on the First Amendment -- that government will not interfere with religious practices?   But, that only applies if those religions include Richard Dawson, et al.  True?

This, in my opinion, is atheism and secularism run amok!  

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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They are in violation of a city ordinance!! Has nothing to do with who are what they worship. They could be worshiping tree frogs or rainbows. There are all kinds of city ordinances that citizens have to abide by. Noise ordinances, grass/lawn ordinances, pet ordinances. What you and many other Christians believe is that you are somehow entitled to special treatment. You are not.

My first thought was how this would jive with the First Amendment but then this is a local issue therefore it should be handled on the local level.  I wonder what the reaction would be if they attempted to get a use permit to hold their meetings?  An alternate to moving would also be to move the studies to a Church building or some meeting area that they could rent.  OC sounds like one of those wonderful highly restricted places where those who live have the most misplaced high opinion of themselves.  Makes me glad to live in Alabama.

Anyone have a google view of this place?  When I lived in California, we didnt have room for what I would consider a yard in many neighborhoods.  My flowerbed is bigger than some of the yards I have seen.  When I lived in San Diego, I had two roommates and one parking spot in the driveway, the other two cars were parked in the road.

Seriously, these people dont think its weird to have this many cars, and this many people, in a residential home on a regular basis?  And yes, Bill, if my neighbors were having 50 people over for football parties once every week (not to mention twice), I would have a problem with it.  50 people would mean somewhere in the neighborhood of 25 cars.  I can park 3 - 4 cars on the street in front of my house, which means that 20 or so cars would be parked in front of my neighbors homes.  When I have my daughters birthday party (remember, it only comes once a year) I get with my neighbors and let them know we are having a get together that will spill parking over into the street.  

And dont give me the 'the neighbors all said its ok.'  All it takes is one person to not appreciate it to call the police.  And I would be willing to bet its probably one of the folks thats supposedly all right with it thats complaining to the police about the traffic and parking problems.

As I mentioned, the citizens may have been in a PRIVATE HOME, but I'd be willing to bet their vehicles were parked on a PUBLIC STREET......

Hi James,

When you have friends over for a birthday party or to watch football -- where do they park?  Should that be against the law? 

Or, as Uno suggests in his total hatred of anything to do with God -- does this only apply to Christians?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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As I said in the post you ignored. They are violating a city ordinance. Does not matter what or who they are worshiping. They do not get special treatment just because they are Christians. Do you think they should?

Why are you lying about what Uno said. It is just a few post up from this one for everyone to see and no where in it does he suggest this ordinance should only apply to Christians.

I wouldn't care why they were "gathering" twice a week if they were clogging up my neighborhood. No one has birthday parties twice a week or has groups over to watch football at the same house every week. Our neighbors tell us and others near them when they have something like that planned and if we were planning on being gone we've offered to let them use our driveway. But no way in heck we could do that twice a week nor would they impose on us or other neighbors like that. We do the same when we have large groups over for our parties.

This is kinda funny too. If anyone has ever watched Parking Wars they may have seen the episode where the muslims were holding their meeting in a home and the guy was ticketing the cars. Of course they got hot and told the guy he was discriminating against them and their religion. He explained he had no way of knowing why they were gathered and he was just doing his job. Now if bill had been watching he'd be all for them getting tickets. I'd think a group that large could afford to rent a "room" or an office space to hold their "bible studies" or "borrow" a church. With a church on almost every corner why do they have to bother the neighbors or impose on the city? Fine them and ticket the cars.

Imagine a society where everyone simply does as they please, without regard to those around them. Should you factor in the notion that you are disturbing your neighbors with your choices? Are we a selfish society? I once saw a car vanity tag that read " It's all about me!" This issue is very simple to remedy. Rent a building somewhere large enough for your mission without disturbing your neighbors! If you notice most property is zoned for specific use. There is a reason for this! 

Why don't they just get a permit:

:

That type of meeting would require a conditional use permit as defined by the city, according to Pacific Justice Institute (PJI), the couple’s legal representation.

Neighbors have written letters to the city in support of the Fromms, whom they said have not caused any disturbances with the meetings, according to PJI.
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Which neighbors? Have they ask them all? Somebody turned them in.

But, IF those were birthday parties, parties to watch football or boxing EVERY SATURDAY, or, maybe, swinger's parties -- YOU would have no complaint -- right?  Your only complaint is that Christians are gathering in a PRIVATE HOME to fellowship and study God's Word -- right?

What happened to your preaching on the First Amendment -- that government will not interfere with religious practices?   But, that only applies if those religions include Richard Dawson, et al.  True?

This, in my opinion, is atheism and secularism run amok! 

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amok also amuck:

(a state of murderous frenzy, originally observed among Malays. adv. run amok to run about with or as if with a frenzied desire to kill)

OMG!!!!!!! Atheism and secularism runs amok!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! A city is enforcing one of it's laws! How dare it??  What is the world is coming to when christians can't break the law!!!!

The city of San Juan Capistrano was founded as a mission in the late 1700s by Catholic priest Junipero Serra, who established a local chapel that remains the oldest standing building in California.

Officials with San Juan Capistrano did not respond to requests for comment.

It is funny since the city was established by a priest.

I think we need a little logic here. Many of the replies I am seeing make the assumption that the people are causing a parking/traffic problem or disturbance and if that is the case then the people need to make other arrangements and correct the problem.  I am also seeing that this is a semi rural area and the lot is over an acre. If we are only talking around 50 people then there is no reason at all to need to park in the street. For example and from personal experience, it isn't uncommon to have family get togethers at my Mother's house, which when everyone is there is 41 persons and 9 vehicles. It's a few less people than they have over but everyone fits in the driveway, if they have over an acre then there should be ample parking for their guests.

The first part of my opinion is that no matter what they are doing, as long as they are not causing a disturbance then a law dictating how much company a person can have at their home or how often they can have company is not something that would hold up past the local level as that is a serious intrusion upon one's personal liberties. As this law reads, if there are 3 or more gathered (yes THREE) then that means having another couple over for dinner and a movie on a regular basis is against the law there, card night with your buddies? yep that's illegal too. The second part is that these folks are more than likely being singled out because they are studying the Bible during their visit, there is always someone that wants to keep the Bible out of our hands and it never ceases to amaze me at just how much some people are vehemently opposed to Christians having times of fellowship together or studying the Bible together. 

 Who "singled" them out? And why should they be allowed to break the law? What amazes me is the claim they are being persecuted because they're christians. Get a grip-they're breaking the law, that's it in a nutshell. Sheesh!

BFred07: They are clearly disturbing someone or the goverment would not have gotten involved! I think if my neighbor had 50 guests next door all the time it would get old pretty quick.

  I imagine they are being singled out, I would bet money that no one's weekly card game or anything else that falls under the law is having trouble unless they are causing a problem. My choice of words was not good for me to say disturbance because people can be disturbed over anything they don't like. If the people are not making an unreasonable amount of noise, causing a parking or traffic problem, and not harming anything then they should be left alone. As long as they are being decent then it is none of their neighbors business if they are having company, when they are having company, or how many guests they have. You say they are breaking the law but a government body can pass anything and make it law but as I said in my last post, a law such as this one will not hold up in court past the local level as government cannot dictate when and how many persons you can have as guests unless it is a safety concern (think fire marshal) or if they are causing a problem. As the law is written, I could not have my brother and his wife over for dinner on a regular basis without a permit because that would be 3 or more people. The law means nothing except that they will have to spend money on an attorney to set they city straight on what they can and cannot do.

Whose weekly card game has 50 people? Who has two weekly card games? Set the city straight? LOL! The nerve of some people. And once again, who are you suggesting singled them out? If I was their neighbor and they flooded my street twice a week I'd be complaining too, no matter what they were doing. Maybe the city should have just towed the cars and not bothered talking to them.

So now the city can just come onto private property and start towing cars? Anyway, the law does not say 50 people, it says 3 or more. If the people are able to accommodate 50 without having a bunch of cars parked in the street and if they are not making a lot of noise then what's the problem?

I ain't been on the forum much lately so i might be a little behind but Bestworking is Jennifer? AKA my favorite atheist

This is the city ordinance they are violating...

City officials in San Juan Capistrano, Calif. say Chuck and Stephanie Fromm are in violation of municipal code 9-3.301, which prohibits “religious, fraternal or non-profit” organizations in residential neighborhoods without a permit. Stephanie hosts a Wednesday Bible study that draws about 20 attendees, and Chuck holds a Sunday service that gets about 50.

All they have to do is get a permit. They are not being told they can't have these bible studies, they are just being ask to get the appropriate permit.

It would be the same thing if it were a Humanists meeting or an Atheist meeting. If they want to fight it they have that right. Maybe they will win. Who knows..... However they had been warned and told to get the permit and they went on and knowingly broke the law. So they get a fine.

These preacher wannabes need to go rent a building.

If 50 people wanna have a revival in their

home near my home, I have plenty of

land they can park on.

But it'll cost five bucks per car.

My property is just under an acre, and I have room to put about three cars on the street in front of my house (I have somewhat of a pie shaped lot and the back is larger than the front).  The city says its a parking and traffic problem and told them if they continued, they would be fined.  If all the neighbors were ok with it, no one would have complained and I highly doubt the local police would have ever noticed the regular gatherings in this 'semi rural neighborhood' (I know they dont patrol mine enough to notice something like that or even care.)  

So, IMO, it goes back to the fact that SOMEONE filed a complaint.  Their right to do it ends when it impedes on my rights in a situation like this.  Is the more than 3 people law a bit harsh?  Yep.  Does that give them the right to break the law?  Nope.  Get your neighbors and fellow citizens together and petition to have it changed (if thats what the residents of the county actually want to do as a whole.)

As for requesting the conditional use permit, I'm willing to bet that they would be able to get it approved but a couple of times, then the city would start denying them.  Just because you request one does not mean it will be granted.  And it would have nothing to do with the fact that it is a Christian group.