Skip to main content

Replies sorted oldest to newest

quote:
Originally posted by skymaster:
But JJ, Don’t you remember the election of 2006?

Regular gasoline sold for $2.19 a gallon; now with the Democrats in control the cheapest gas I found today was 3.75.

And didn’t I see you driving a brand new Hummer the other day. lol


Gas prices were rising before Democrats took control. Gas went from under 1.00 in 2000 to at least 2.50 by the 2006 election.

The fact that we are at war in the Middle East is not helping any. Tanks and jets need lots of fuel. Besides, we are p*ssing off the very people who own most of the oil. I wouldn't be so kind or friendly to make oil cheap if my friends and loved ones were being slaughtered.
quote:
Originally posted by Si, se puede!:
quote:
Originally posted by skymaster:
But JJ, Don’t you remember the election of 2006?

Regular gasoline sold for $2.19 a gallon; now with the Democrats in control the cheapest gas I found today was 3.75.

And didn’t I see you driving a brand new Hummer the other day. lol


Gas prices were rising before Democrats took control. Gas went from under 1.00 in 2000 to at least 2.50 by the 2006 election.

The fact that we are at war in the Middle East is not helping any. Tanks and jets need lots of fuel. Besides, we are p*ssing off the very people who own most of the oil. I wouldn't be so kind or friendly to make oil cheap if my friends and loved ones were being slaughtered.


First off, we aren't "slaughtering" anybody anywhere.

Second, OPEC has the lions share of the available supply so they can charge anything they want. That's why we need to be drilling for our own oil so that we won't be beholden to the middle east.
quote:
Originally posted by skymaster:
But JJ, Don’t you remember the election of 2006?

Regular gasoline sold for $2.19 a gallon; now with the Democrats in control the cheapest gas I found today was 3.75.

And didn’t I see you driving a brand new Hummer the other day. lol



Skymaster, The democrats are out numbered on the fillerbuster by the pubs,bluedogs and yellowdog democrats. These are your Bush democrats. On the news today they asked, when will people speak up and say enough is enough. I don't think people will speak up and do nothing but keep the roads hot and go on their little merry way.
JJ, It seams to me a lot of commodity traders and heads of Hedge funds are bidding up the price of oil and a bunch of these folks support Democrats. I have not seen those concerned Democratic politcians who were flogging the oil company officials dragging anyone trading oil futures to the pillory. Don't forget people like George Soros (The man who broke the Bank Of England) have been shorting the dollar which also effects the price.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Soros
quote:
Originally posted by JJPAUL:
OIL $135.00 A barrel. Can you afford another 4 years of republican oil men and women?

Try selling that SUV yet? Good luck on getting what you got in it back.

How big of a fool will you be to put republicans back in control? Eeker


Get real! The President of the United States has absolutely no control over oil prices, nor should he. If we had listened to him seven years ago, we'd be pumping more oil out of Alaska today. To heck with a polar bear!
quote:
Originally posted by JJPAUL:


Skymaster, The democrats are out numbered on the fillerbuster by the pubs,bluedogs and yellowdog democrats. These are your Bush democrats. On the news today they asked, when will people speak up and say enough is enough. I don't think people will speak up and do nothing but keep the roads hot and go on their little merry way.


I just wonder how high the price has to get before people will do something. There has to be a limit.
Folks,there is something very STINKY about the entire gas price situation. Over the past 3 days I have watched NUMEROUS auto sales commercials advertising discounted,and one even offered free gas for "x" peroids of time after the purchase. Now this situation is proving auto companies have some sort of deal going on with major gas companies.
quote:
Originally posted by rforeverfree:
I am outraged by these new higher gasoline prices.. lets' see what shall I do? I know I'll post my complaints on a newspaper reader forum, that ought solve the issue, and while I am at it I will let a pinko poster rile me up about it. I think that PB..oh darn.. JJPaul may have the solution right here in River City.



rforeverfree, Vote For McCain and get a controled republican congress and senate and see how low your gas prices will go. I really would like to see Bush get elected for 4 more years.
quote:
Originally posted by falcon1234:
quote:
Originally posted by JJPAUL:
Eeker


Get real! The President of the United States has absolutely no control over oil prices, nor should he. If we had listened to him seven years ago, we'd be pumping more oil out of Alaska today. To heck with a polar bear!


You want to drill more oil wells in Alaska to sell more oil to Japan? That is what they did for years with the oil coming down the Alaska pipeline. (I think that finally did change and we do get some of it domestically). However, from what is said, if the oil fields in Alaska were fully pumping it would only make 1 or 2 cents difference in todays price.

On the other hand, if they had listened to ME back in the 80s, the Reagan adm would have "kept the course" with what Jimmy Carter got started and continued to take steps to decrease our dependance on oil . If they had listened to Clinton and ME in the 90s they would have placed higher CAFE standards on all vehicles and that includes the gas guzzeling SUV's .
In short, if they had listened to ME instead of Reagan/ Republican Congress in 90's/ Bush we would be driving along right now on electric cars and using electric powered public transportation to commute.
The oil was shipped to Japan because we had insufficient refinery capacity on the west coast. It was cheaper to fill Japan's needs and use Nigerian oil in US Gulf and east coast refineries, until west coast refineries increased capacity.

We are importing gasoline because of insufficient refinery capacity, which drives up the cost.

As to Alaskan oil, as test drilling in not allowed in ANWR or the Chicksa Sea, no one has any idea how much oil is there.

The Europeans have worked on electric cars with little success. Even, if successul, they will be short commuter vehicles, at best.
These figures maybe be off a dollar or two except for the last one.

Reagan as President oil was $15.07 a barrel and when he left it was $18.50 a barrel

Bush Sr. as President oil was $19.83 a barrel and when he left it was $14.95 a barrel.

Clinton as President oil was $14.95 a barrel when he left it was $21.13 a barrel

Bush W. as President oil was $21.13 a barrel, now $128.93 and climbling.

http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/dnav/pet/hist/rwtcd.htm

It's not all Bush's W. fault, are own people are doing it to us with the high commodities.
The bill may stop trading in the US, but it will not stop trading in the City in London, the Bourse in Paris, or any of the other markets in the world. US companies will have to buy what they can on the spot market. That will be even more expensive. Hope you like walking as shortages will appear.

ExxonMobile, our largest oil company, is only the 17th largest in the world.
quote:
Originally posted by Howard Roark:
The oil was shipped to Japan because we had insufficient refinery capacity on the west coast. It was cheaper to fill Japan's needs and use Nigerian oil in US Gulf and east coast refineries, until west coast refineries increased capacity.

We are importing gasoline because of insufficient refinery capacity, which drives up the cost.

As to Alaskan oil, as test drilling in not allowed in ANWR or the Chicksa Sea, no one has any idea how much oil is there.

The Europeans have worked on electric cars with little success. Even, if successul, they will be short commuter vehicles, at best.


Need creates invention. Maybe I'm wrong, will never know for sure, but possibally if we had not hit the snooze button in the 70s and had stayed with Jimmy Carter's idea to reduce dependence on oil period, instead of buying ever bigger gas hogs, we may not have had to come to this point.
I will never forget his (Carter's) speech stating that overcoming oil dependence is the "moral equivalent of war".
I believe we are in a war for our independence, not in Iraq as Bush would have us believe, but a war to end dependence on oil , both foreign and domestic. Although I personally hate the high price of gasoline as much as the next person, perhaps these high prices will encourage consumption of less gas, thereby putting less money into the pockets of Arab Sheiks and in tern less money available to the terrorist who would do us harm.
Excelman, I was alive during the wonderful Carter years also and I remember the gas lines wrought by the wonders of the punitive Windfall Profits tax. Yes, sending money to the haters of the U.S. is extremely stupid; but really who is most at fault? One can believe that a president is a wizard or fairy and that with one mighty wave of the wand all fuel tanks will overflow with cheap gas, but that is a dream of fools. A person must have been asleep through highschool American Government/Civics classes and Economics classes to believe the Democratic (Socialist) party line.
Anyone with a brain knows that low supply and high demand plus rampant speculation equals high prices. Just what can a president do? Should Bush nuke the producers and exchange houses around the world and take the oil? Should Congress go without blame for not allowing exploration and drilling on our own soil for many years now? One must remember it takes 60 like minded Senators to get bills through the Senate. Even if one can find a majority in the House and 60 Senators with gray matter, it takes time for the oil to get to the refineries. Then there is the problem of the limited refinary capacity. Oh yes, thats just a wave of a Democrat's magic wand away from solution.
What about alternative energy sources? Do we want to wait a couple of decades for the research and then the production/delivery infrastructure to fill our tanks with Wonderwizz fuel? It will take time to find the best processes and construct the plants and delivery infrastucture before the U.S. can kick its addiction to oil. Until the day of self-reliance comes again, all one can do is be frugal with our choices of transportation.
quote:
Originally posted by Flatus the Ancient:
Excelman, I was alive during the wonderful Carter years also and I remember the gas lines wrought by the wonders of the punitive Windfall Profits tax. Yes, sending money to the haters of the U.S. is extremely stupid; but really who is most at fault? One can believe that a president is a wizard or fairy and that with one mighty wave of the wand all fuel tanks will overflow with cheap gas, but that is a dream of fools. A person must have been asleep through highschool American Government/Civics classes and Economics classes to believe the Democratic (Socialist) party line.
Anyone with a brain knows that low supply and high demand plus rampant speculation equals high prices. Just what can a president do? Should Bush nuke the producers and exchange houses around the world and take the oil? Should Congress go without blame for not allowing exploration and drilling on our own soil for many years now? One must remember it takes 60 like minded Senators to get bills through the Senate. Even if one can find a majority in the House and 60 Senators with gray matter, it takes time for the oil to get to the refineries. Then there is the problem of the limited refinary capacity. Oh yes, thats just a wave of a Democrat's magic wand away from solution.
What about alternative energy sources? Do we want to wait a couple of decades for the research and then the production/delivery infrastructure to fill our tanks with Wonderwizz fuel? It will take time to find the best processes and construct the plants and delivery infrastucture before the U.S. can kick its addiction to oil. Until the day of self-reliance comes again, all one can do is be frugal with our choices of transportation.


Well, I was certainly around during the Carter years. He got blamed for the gas shortages, and like you say, a president is not totally to blame up or down. However, I believe you have mis-read my intentions on these post. While I am NOT against increasing supply, what I have been saying is that we should be decreasing our use of oil and it's by-products.
Lots of people don't want to face up to the reality that ALL the cheap easy to get at oil has already been exploited and the fields are producing less every year. Iraq still has a lot, maybe more than any other place in the world, but you see what price we are paying right now to try to secure that oil for the Western Oil companies, and when and if they get that oil it will be sold on the world market just like the oil from Alaska that was supposed to make us energy independent.
Well, horsefeathers ! IF we had spent the last 30 years trying to get off of petroleum , and not building and buying bigger and more powerful SUVs , we may have put a real dent in our useage and therefore dependence upon foreign sources.
This fool's mission we have been on to burn the maximum ammount of gasoline we could while sending our military across the globe , pissing off the rest of the world, just so American companies can make those profits , is , well, foolish.
A few more oil fields tapped, and a few more refineries built, - remember, the refineries we have are NOT running at anywhere near capacity now, will not give long term solutions to our personal transportation problem.
Carter DID start some programs to ease the entire energy problems we had then. We should have kept them and continued to improve , and not gone backwards.
If it is supply you are so worried about, one thing that the president COULD do to put about 1/2 million barrels of oil per day on the market tomorrow; he could withdraw from Iraq. Fighting more and more wars so we can continue to drive around in Bushmobiles is just absurd thinking.
Excelman, you are partially correct in saying that Carter was not resposible for the gas lines, it takes Congress to pass the laws that reduce the incentive to find and produce fuel for profit. While you say that Carter was interested in kicking the addiction to oil, I remember that it was in Reagan's time that TVA started work to produce Ethanol from waste biomass. The work stopped in Clinton's term because of the expense of the Ethanol from using that process, it was far cheaper to keep burning gas.

As far as the foolishness of the American consumer and SUV's, this is a still a free country with a Free Market economy. I don't believe Dick Cheney has the time to go to every car dealer with his shotgun and force people to buy a gass-guzzler. Perhaps if the U.S. was a more perfect Peoples Republic with an energy commisar, we would be more energy independent tooling about in our oxcarts and riding bicycles.

As far as the U.S.'s military posture, how would it be beneficial if we adopt an isolationistic and pacifistic policy. That policy worked extremely well during the 1930's with the rise of the socialistic dictatorships and the feudal empire that our country would have to deal with later. As far as screaming like a girl and running like a frenchman from Iraq, how would that put more oil on the market? Surrendering one oil producer to Sunni (al-Qaeda) and Shia (Iran) muslim extremists would only embolden those fanatics to take over the other oil producing countries in the region. An Obamanish foreign policy would probably give us an economy that would have us longing for the days of cheap 4 dollar gas. Such a foreign policy might also put us in a war of Apocholyptic proportions with a much stronger enemy and a much weaker U.S.

As far as refineries not running at 100% capacity 24/7 for 365 days a year, remember these facilities were designed by man and staffed and overseen by humans. Things wear out and need maintenance, and things wear out faster when they are being pushed at maximum capacity. Also there are different fuel blends for different locals as dictated by the EPA which mean down-times to make the neccesary adjustments.
Again, it took time to get ourselves in this predicament, so it will take more time, sweat and wisdom to get us out of it. Politcians offering quick fixes and wand-waving are lying and people who believe them are fools. Only the hard work of intelligent minds with the sweat of industrious employees coupled with more educated consumers will get us out this rough-patch. In the end it will take free enterprise and the American consumer and not socialists to fix things.
quote:
Originally posted by Flatus the Ancient:
Excelman, you are partially correct in saying that Carter was not resposible for the gas lines, it takes Congress to pass the laws that reduce the incentive to find and produce fuel for profit. While you say that Carter was interested in kicking the addiction to oil, I remember that it was in Reagan's time that TVA started work to produce Ethanol from waste biomass. The work stopped in Clinton's term because of the expense of the Ethanol from using that process, it was far cheaper to keep burning gas.
I believe that the bio-mass to alcohol plant was started during or shortly after Carter's time. It was for sure shut down by 2nd term of Reagan as was the coal to gas plant. Both were long gone before the Clinton Admin. I know that for a fact.

As far as the foolishness of the American consumer and SUV's, this is a still a free country with a Free Market economy. I don't believe Dick Cheney has the time to go to every car dealer with his shotgun and force people to buy a gass-guzzler. Perhaps if the U.S. was a more perfect Peoples Republic with an energy commisar, we would be more energy independent tooling about in our oxcarts and riding bicycles.
While it is true that nobody made anybody buy one of those gas guzzeling SUV's or trucks, today's gas prices show the foolishness of such a purchase. My major problem with the politics of the situation is that small trucks were NOT originally considered in the CAFE standards because during the 70's , most people drove cars and trucks were primarily used by people as a means to earn a living. Later, when trucks became popular as personal transportation, any attempt to include them in CAFE standards was shot down by Republicans in Congress. To me it is pretty simple, if you drive a vehicle for personal transportation that does not get at least around 30 MPG, you shouldn't be *****ing about the cost of gas.

As far as the U.S.'s military posture, how would it be beneficial if we adopt an isolationistic and pacifistic policy. That policy worked extremely well during the 1930's with the rise of the socialistic dictatorships and the feudal empire that our country would have to deal with later. As far as screaming like a girl and running like a frenchman from Iraq, how would that put more oil on the market? Surrendering one oil producer to Sunni (al-Qaeda) and Shia (Iran) muslim extremists would only embolden those fanatics to take over the other oil producing countries in the region. An Obamanish foreign policy would probably give us an economy that would have us longing for the days of cheap 4 dollar gas. Such a foreign policy might also put us in a war of Apocholyptic proportions with a much stronger enemy and a much weaker U.S.
I believe it is no longer in the best interest of our country to be the policemen for the rest of the world. We have by far the largest milirary of any country in the world, and we pay thru the nose for that. Why should Europe, or Asia, or Africa, or whoever else not have to provide security for themselves ? However, I spoke about getting our of Iraq, and the US military burns approximatly 1/2 million barrals of oil per day just to keep our fources there. If we were to get out "poof" tomorrow, that would be that much more oil on the market. while it is true that there would probably be civil war between the factions there, when a few million had been killed , and the country in the hands of the most powerful sect, they would pump oil like crazy. American oil companies may or may not get the profits from it, but it would be on the market. An additional thing that Bush''s cowboy deplomacy has caused is the insecurity that we may invade Iran and who knows who else. As Howard Roark points out that causes the speculation of the oil market to go crazy driving up the price of oil. In addition,. the cost of insurance to the shippers is increased by exponential amounts due to the shipping out of a war zone. Bush's policies , I believe, have caused a lot of the cost we are paying at the pump.

As far as refineries not running at 100% capacity 24/7 for 365 days a year, remember these facilities were designed by man and staffed and overseen by humans. Things wear out and need maintenance, and things wear out faster when they are being pushed at maximum capacity. Also there are different fuel blends for different locals as dictated by the EPA which mean down-times to make the neccesary adjustments.

True, and some of the spring price problems are because the refineries are changing to the summer blends to help with the smog , especilly in Cal. The refineries are adding capacities even as we speak, but it takes a while for that to come on line.
Again, it took time to get ourselves in this predicament, so it will take more time, sweat and wisdom to get us out of it. Politcians offering quick fixes and wand-waving are lying and people who believe them are fools. Only the hard work of intelligent minds with the sweat of industrious employees coupled with more educated consumers will get us out this rough-patch. In the end it will take free enterprise and the American consumer and not socialists to fix things.


BTW, thanks for this civil, thoughtful dialog.
Excelman, let me address your assertions:


I believe that the bio-mass to alcohol plant was started during or shortly after Carter's time. It was for sure shut down by 2nd term of Reagan as was the coal to gas plant. Both were long gone before the Clinton Admin. I know that for a fact.

I was working on the TVA Reservation at the time of the both projects. You are entirely correct that the Ammonia from Coal facilty was constructed during Carter's time perhaps entirely or perhaps lingering a month or two into Reagan's. My memory isn't perfect. I believe both biomass plants were constructed a year or three into ol' 666's term upon a softball field. I can remember it operating on and off up to the mid 90's which would put it in the time of the president with the fondness for exotic cigars. I believe TVA got lots of good data from both projects, but they were not economicly viable at the time. I can't remember much about the gasification project, but I sort of remember that the economic break-even point 20 years ago was more than double and perhaps more than triple the price of gasoline at the time. I am not sure how much the inflation of costs in construction and plant operation have changed the break-even point, but I suspect the price of gas is still a dollar or two away. Perhaps a more economical alternative would be a liquid fuel from coal process such as the NAZI Germans and embargoed South Africans have used in the past or some more updated process.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fischer-Tropsch_process



While it is true that nobody made anybody buy one of those gas guzzeling SUV's or trucks, today's gas prices show the foolishness of such a purchase. My major problem with the politics of the situation is that small trucks were NOT originally considered in the CAFE standards because during the 70's , most people drove cars and trucks were primarily used by people as a means to earn a living. Later, when trucks became popular as personal transportation, any attempt to include them in CAFE standards was shot down by Republicans in Congress. To me it is pretty simple, if you drive a vehicle for personal transportation that does not get at least around 30 MPG, you shouldn't be *****ing about the cost of gas.

Yes, it would be great if all consumers would grow a brain and buy what they need and not what makes them look cool. As far as forcing people to buy what they don't want, thats's not what this country is all about or it used not to be a Fascist state. If the government mandates Auto-makers to produce something consumers don't want, people won't buy it. As far as Republicans putting the kabash on CAFE standards, you might want to Google the Democrat John Dingell. Oh yes, I seem to remember that there was a Democratic majority in both houses of Congress up to the time Clinton wanted to start socialising health care and since the last mid term election. So, where's the beef?


I believe it is no longer in the best interest of our country to be the policemen for the rest of the world. We have by far the largest milirary of any country in the world, and we pay thru the nose for that. Why should Europe, or Asia, or Africa, or whoever else not have to provide security for themselves ? However, I spoke about getting our of Iraq, and the US military burns approximatly 1/2 million barrals of oil per day just to keep our fources there. If we were to get out "poof" tomorrow, that would be that much more oil on the market. while it is true that there would probably be civil war between the factions there, when a few million had been killed , and the country in the hands of the most powerful sect, they would pump oil like crazy. American oil companies may or may not get the profits from it, but it would be on the market. An additional thing that Bush''s cowboy deplomacy has caused is the insecurity that we may invade Iran and who knows who else. As Howard Roark points out that causes the speculation of the oil market to go crazy driving up the price of oil. In addition,. the cost of insurance to the shippers is increased by exponential amounts due to the shipping out of a war zone. Bush's policies , I believe, have caused a lot of the cost we are paying at the pump.

As far as the U.S. taking on the role of the world's top cop one has to remember that most of the world is more socialistic than us. All the "free stuff" promised by those governments takes up a lot of tax revenue. Most goverments would rather have an army of bureaucrats rather a fighting Army. Just a choice of how to use tax proceeds I guess. I would like to see your source of data for the military fuel consumption in Iraq. I can believe the numbers if you mean the entire U.S. military world wide. Yes, I am sure the Islamic states might pump us a few more barrels if we we delivered up Israel to the second Holocaust and allowed them to kill off a few million infidels on their soil; but wouldn't that put the U.S. on the same moral level as NAZI Germany? I might remind you that if one takes the acronym "NAZI" and turn it into full German words and then translate those word into English one gets the National Socialist German Workers’ Party. In our country the Republican party is our national capitalist party. The process of elimination will give you the national socialist party. Anyway, either the Israelies would nuke the oil fields or the battling muslim factions would destroy them. No oil for us. You are entirely correct that speculators will use any excuse to gouge consumers, but fear not, a goodly number of them support Democrats, so you may get your wishes on policies after this election. Hedge Fund folks like George Soros can make billions picking over the bones of an economy.
Last edited by Flatus the Ancient
It would appear I am in error, according to this article the useage is 1.7 million gallons of fuel / day, which is about 51 milion gallons /month and if a barrel is roughly 50 gal, that means we are using closer to 1 million barrels / day.
Thanks for asking me to look it up.

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200505/bryce

Sorry, not at home right now with my dsl, just using dial up so can't do a lot of research.

I remember the alcohol plant at TVA but just coming off my memory now, I am pretty sure it was gone by early 90's. What I have said about that is from my memory of working back there also, and I'm getting old and kant member stuf !
A barrel of petroleum contains 42 gallons. Refining yields about these percentages of product:

Product Percent of Total
Finished Motor Gasoline 51.4%
Distillate Fuel Oil 15.3%
Jet Fuel 12.3%
Still Gas 5.4%
Marketable Coke 5.0%
Residual Fuel Oil 3.3%
Liquefied Refinery Gas 2.8%
Asphalt and Road Oil 1.7%
Other Refined Products 1.5%
Lubricants 0.9%
http://www.energy.ca.gov/gasoline/whats_in_barrel_oil.html

Distillate Fuel Oil equals diesel fuel and heating oil.

Add Reply

Post

Untitled Document
×
×
×
×
Link copied to your clipboard.
×