check this out
http://news.independent.co.uk/environment/article2099971.ece
now give us your expert rationale and tell us once again how global warming is a hoax please,I forgot the lines
Original Post
Replies sorted oldest to newest
You've got a glass of ice water, there is plenty of ice in the glass. You forget about it, leaving it sitting on the table for several hours. You come back and see that all the ice has melted in the glass. Has all the water overflowed and made a mess on the table?
that does not wash nash,
you have a plate, you place 5 nice crisp little cookies on it, then you stragically place 12 ice cubes around those five little crisp cookies. You leave that and forget about it,returning later and what have you got then?
you have a plate, you place 5 nice crisp little cookies on it, then you stragically place 12 ice cubes around those five little crisp cookies. You leave that and forget about it,returning later and what have you got then?
Since you won't answer my question, I'll do it for you. The water does not overflow out of the glass. Except for some condensation around the outside of the glass, there is no mess on the table.
As for your example, you would have plate of water with 5 floating cookies and no water on the table. I'm not sure how that is supposed to prove your point, it really has nothing to do with the physics involved.
When water is frozen, it expands and takes more space. When it melts, it takes less space. Just as the ice in the glass melting didn't cause the water to overflow, the polar ice caps melting will not raise the ocean level to a scale that it would swallow islands and continents. To say that melting polar ice caps will raise the ocean level defies physics.
The story you provided did not have any scientific evidence that rising temperature caused the oceans to rise, nor did it link humans with the temperature rise or the waters rising. In other words, that story is complete bunk.
I'm not saying that our temperature isn't rising, it could be. I'm saying that the temperature rise is slight and is a natural occurrence.
As for your example, you would have plate of water with 5 floating cookies and no water on the table. I'm not sure how that is supposed to prove your point, it really has nothing to do with the physics involved.
When water is frozen, it expands and takes more space. When it melts, it takes less space. Just as the ice in the glass melting didn't cause the water to overflow, the polar ice caps melting will not raise the ocean level to a scale that it would swallow islands and continents. To say that melting polar ice caps will raise the ocean level defies physics.
The story you provided did not have any scientific evidence that rising temperature caused the oceans to rise, nor did it link humans with the temperature rise or the waters rising. In other words, that story is complete bunk.
I'm not saying that our temperature isn't rising, it could be. I'm saying that the temperature rise is slight and is a natural occurrence.
why THANK YOU nash! How silly of me,,,I had almost thought as ice melts and becomes in the LIQUID form it could POSSIBLY errode shorelines or create rises in the LIQUID form of water in the areas where were previously dry land.
So glad we have you here to set us straight on how the difference is between the DENSITY of water and ice! and which would be the most damaging to dry land areas.
So glad we have you here to set us straight on how the difference is between the DENSITY of water and ice! and which would be the most damaging to dry land areas.
You're right, water erodes the land in liquid form. Erosion has been a part of the natural process since the beginning of time. You're also right about ice being denser than water. I'm missing how all of this proves global warming is caused by humans.
Here's a graphic that shows how much Arctic ice has melted over recent history.
Clicking on the words here opens a new window with a Shockwave graphics application.
Clicking on the words here opens a new window with a Shockwave graphics application.
The remark about ice, water level and condensation has been... has been... shall we say "largely uninformed." Using an example of ice melting and condensation forming on a drinking cup is a very poor attempt to explain a very complex issue.
And, that's too sad.
What hasn't been accounted for is the story of Noah and a global flood. Mix in with it the theories about Pangea, separation of the shelfs, and a shifting of the tectonic plates, and you've got a really interesting upheaval of unparalleled proportion, on a magnitude that makes the San Francisco earthquake, the tsunami in Thailand and ever other cataclysmic event COMBINED! pale by comparison. In other words, we're talking about a massive upheaval which would have made mountains.
Everyone ought to know and understand some basic fundamentals about hydrogeology, chemistry and physics. However, most don't and most won't.
Even the reference to "the physics involved" fails to account for very important variable... environmental water vapor. For example, why does flooding occur if a fixed amount of water is in the environment?
Let's examine just one issue: condensation.
Water and its vapor are everywhere! Especially in the South in the summer! Why, if the Almighty hadn't invented air conditioning, in the South, we'd be done for!
Simply put, condensation occurs when two surfaces with different temperatures contact each other.
The condensate comes from water vapor in the environment, which is called humidity.
We see the phenomenon with contrails, or the condensation trails of jets in the skies. If you've ever flown a small aircraft, you know that even on the hottest summer day, it's freezing cold up in sky and in those clouds. It's also much less dense.
The hot exhaust gasses cause water vapor in the upper atmosphere to condense around the area of heat. What has happened, is that heat has 'driven away' water vapor from other areas, thus causing it to concentrate. When it cools, it concentrates.
Think of it this way: Examine the condensation around an air conditioning coil. In the concept of air conditioning, moisture is removed from the air, and cooled moisture-free air is blown back in.
The reason contrails form is because the area with the cooler temperature has a greater capacity to hold more water vapor at a particular temperature and pressure than does the warmer area. Watch contrails sometime. The longer they stick around, typically means a higher concentration of atmospheric water vapor. Inversely, the quicker they dissipate, the less likely it it to rain. (The fact that in select heavy air traffic corridors, contrails can increase cloud cover up to 20% is concerning.) As the air temperature rises, the point at which clouds (and contrails) form increases along with the vapor pressure.
The concepts to understand in that process include Dew Point, Relative Humidity and environmental pressure made by atmospheric water, also sometimes called vapor pressure. Barometric pressure is also important.
Simply put again, the Dew Point is that point where evaporation ability and condensation ability equal each other.
Though the discussion could get more technical, suffice it to say that the greater an object's ability to resist temperature change (also called insulation power) the less condensation will occur on it. Although, at some point, at a given temperature, humidity and pressure level, condensation will occur.
In the natural environment, we call that "rain."
Here's a three-hour GOES-8 movie that shows the proliferation of contrails.
http://cimss.ssec.wisc.edu/wxwise/class/CONTRL.mpg
A GOES-8 movie of the contrail left 12 November 1995 launch of STS-74 (Space Shuttle Atlantis).
http://cimss.ssec.wisc.edu/wxwise/class/Shuttle.mpg
Here ends lesson one.
And, that's too sad.
What hasn't been accounted for is the story of Noah and a global flood. Mix in with it the theories about Pangea, separation of the shelfs, and a shifting of the tectonic plates, and you've got a really interesting upheaval of unparalleled proportion, on a magnitude that makes the San Francisco earthquake, the tsunami in Thailand and ever other cataclysmic event COMBINED! pale by comparison. In other words, we're talking about a massive upheaval which would have made mountains.
Everyone ought to know and understand some basic fundamentals about hydrogeology, chemistry and physics. However, most don't and most won't.
Even the reference to "the physics involved" fails to account for very important variable... environmental water vapor. For example, why does flooding occur if a fixed amount of water is in the environment?
Let's examine just one issue: condensation.
Water and its vapor are everywhere! Especially in the South in the summer! Why, if the Almighty hadn't invented air conditioning, in the South, we'd be done for!
Simply put, condensation occurs when two surfaces with different temperatures contact each other.
The condensate comes from water vapor in the environment, which is called humidity.
We see the phenomenon with contrails, or the condensation trails of jets in the skies. If you've ever flown a small aircraft, you know that even on the hottest summer day, it's freezing cold up in sky and in those clouds. It's also much less dense.
The hot exhaust gasses cause water vapor in the upper atmosphere to condense around the area of heat. What has happened, is that heat has 'driven away' water vapor from other areas, thus causing it to concentrate. When it cools, it concentrates.
Think of it this way: Examine the condensation around an air conditioning coil. In the concept of air conditioning, moisture is removed from the air, and cooled moisture-free air is blown back in.
The reason contrails form is because the area with the cooler temperature has a greater capacity to hold more water vapor at a particular temperature and pressure than does the warmer area. Watch contrails sometime. The longer they stick around, typically means a higher concentration of atmospheric water vapor. Inversely, the quicker they dissipate, the less likely it it to rain. (The fact that in select heavy air traffic corridors, contrails can increase cloud cover up to 20% is concerning.) As the air temperature rises, the point at which clouds (and contrails) form increases along with the vapor pressure.
The concepts to understand in that process include Dew Point, Relative Humidity and environmental pressure made by atmospheric water, also sometimes called vapor pressure. Barometric pressure is also important.
Simply put again, the Dew Point is that point where evaporation ability and condensation ability equal each other.
Though the discussion could get more technical, suffice it to say that the greater an object's ability to resist temperature change (also called insulation power) the less condensation will occur on it. Although, at some point, at a given temperature, humidity and pressure level, condensation will occur.
In the natural environment, we call that "rain."
Here's a three-hour GOES-8 movie that shows the proliferation of contrails.
http://cimss.ssec.wisc.edu/wxwise/class/CONTRL.mpg
A GOES-8 movie of the contrail left 12 November 1995 launch of STS-74 (Space Shuttle Atlantis).
http://cimss.ssec.wisc.edu/wxwise/class/Shuttle.mpg
Here ends lesson one.
Yes, there is global warming on the planets
Earth and Mars. Whether its due to human activity or changing flux of flow of plasma on the surface of the sun and resulting changes in solar winds is the rub. Global warming has occurred on Earth numerous times.
Latest UN study predicts a 17-inch rise in the ocean's heighth vs Gore's movie that predicts a 20-foot rise. GIGO again, when one uses computer models unconnected to actual occurrence.
As the islands being inundated, are we to assume the oceans rises in certain spots and not everywhere, in contradiction with the laws of phsics? The islands rest on tectonic plates that rise and fall. There are other reports of islands rising, that don't make the news.
Earth and Mars. Whether its due to human activity or changing flux of flow of plasma on the surface of the sun and resulting changes in solar winds is the rub. Global warming has occurred on Earth numerous times.
Latest UN study predicts a 17-inch rise in the ocean's heighth vs Gore's movie that predicts a 20-foot rise. GIGO again, when one uses computer models unconnected to actual occurrence.
As the islands being inundated, are we to assume the oceans rises in certain spots and not everywhere, in contradiction with the laws of phsics? The islands rest on tectonic plates that rise and fall. There are other reports of islands rising, that don't make the news.
quote:Yes, there is global warming on the planets
Earth and Mars. Whether its due to human activity or changing flux of flow of plasma on the surface of the sun and resulting changes in solar winds is the rub. Global warming has occurred on Earth numerous times.
Latest UN study predicts a 17-inch rise in the ocean's heighth vs Gore's movie that predicts a 20-foot rise. GIGO again, when one uses computer models unconnected to actual occurrence.
As the islands being inundated, are we to assume the oceans rises in certain spots and not everywhere, in contradiction with the laws of phsics? The islands rest on tectonic plates that rise and fall. There are other reports of islands rising, that don't make the news.
Excellent post.
I haven't seen Gore's movie, so I had no idea he was predicting the sea level to rise 20 feet. That's just insane. Keep in mind that while he's telling us to burn less fossil fuels and use less energy, he's flying all over the world on his private jet, to and from one of his several mansions. Each one of his homes is several times larger than ours requiring much more energy to heat and cool. He burns far more fuel and consumes much more energy than the average family does. So if he's right and we are causing global warming, then he's one of the major contributors. Apparently he's not too worried about the 20 foot rise in ocean levels.
quote:Originally posted by interventor:
Yes, there is global warming on the planets
Earth and Mars. Whether its due to human activity or changing flux of flow of plasma on the surface of the sun and resulting changes in solar winds is the rub. Global warming has occurred on Earth numerous times.
Latest UN study predicts a 17-inch rise in the ocean's heighth vs Gore's movie that predicts a 20-foot rise. GIGO again, when one uses computer models unconnected to actual occurrence.
As the islands being inundated, are we to assume the oceans rises in certain spots and not everywhere, in contradiction with the laws of phsics? The islands rest on tectonic plates that rise and fall. There are other reports of islands rising, that don't make the news.
there is a large resort in the keys, which when purchased almost 20 years ago was 15.5 acres, it sold recently (for over $100 million dollars) and the official report states that there are only 14 acres there, above water. they are planning to level the current resort and build ultra high end condos. part of their plan is to "reclaim" the land by building a wall and bringing in fill from the main land, or to use dredge material if possible.
we know that there is climate changes and we also know that it is part of a natural cycle, the debate should be if we are accelerating this cycle or not with our pollution. and speaking of pollution, in general we are trashing the planet. it would be great if we could focus on saving this place for our children and grandchildren, but there's no money in that....
Water water, just look what it did to Grand Canyon.
quote:You're also right about ice being denser than water. I'm missing how all of this proves global warming is caused by humans.
Ice is less dense than water... thats how it floats. Water reaches its maximum density @ 4°C, lower than that, it begins to lose density.
So if the ice melts, and remains at or near 4° it would be more dense than the ice it is replacing, displacing the ocean by the difference in water densities.
example: water at -10°C weighs 0.9982 g/cm3
while water at 10°C weighs 0.9997 g/cm3
yes that isn't a large difference, but when you start expanding it beyond cubic centimeters it can add up.
and your glass of ice water, is not supercooled ice with a greatly reduced density, so you won't have as much of a variance in density.
Won't answer the question of if humans cause it, since we've had several ice ages and periods when the planet was warmer than it is now.
I agree with George Carlin: "The planet isn't going anywhere. WE ARE! Pack your s**t, folks. We're goin' away."
smurph,what kind of cookies are on the plate?
Nilla Wafers
Nilla Wafers would dissolve speedily. Witness your banana pudding and how soggy it is on day two. Oreos would take a bit longer to get soggy, but the would. Now, take the 99 cent oatmeal cookies, that would take a while. If we covered the entire planet with cheap oatmeal cookies, would we last longer........?
quote:Here is a quote from Newsweek magazine:
“There are ominous signs that the Earth’s weather patterns have begun to change dramatically and that these changes may portend a drastic decline in food production– with serious political implications for just about every nation on Earth.”
A headline in the New York Times reads: “Climate Changes Endanger World’s Food Output.” Here is a quote from Time Magazine:
“As they review the bizarre and unpredictable weather pattern of the past several years, a growing number of scientists are beginning to suspect that many seemingly contradictory meteorological fluctuations are actually part of a global climatic upheaval.”
from articles in 1975 editions of Newsweek Magazine and The New York Times, and Time Magazine in 1974. http://time-proxy.yaga.com/time/archive/printout/0,23657,944914,00.html
They weren’t referring to global warming; they were warning of a coming ice age.
quote:“[Those] who claim that winters were harder when they were boys are quite right… weathermen have no doubt that the world at least for the time being is growing warmer.”
Time Magazine | January 2, 1939
quote:Time Magazine in 1951 pointed to receding permafrost in Russia as proof that the planet was warming.
quote:In 1952, the New York Times noted that the “trump card” of global warming “has been the melting glaciers.”
quote:There are many more examples of the media and scientists flip-flopping between warming and cooling scares.
Here is a quote from the New York Times reporting on fears of an approaching ice age.
“Geologists Think the World May be Frozen Up Again.”
February 24, 1895 edition of the New York Times yep, that's 1895, not 1995
excerpts from a speech given on the Senate floor on 9/25/06 by Senator James Inhofe Chairman, Senate Environment and Public Works Committee. Full speech HERE
quote:Originally posted by Mott The Hoople:
http://www.medialens.org/alerts/06/060116_the_point_of.php
OK nash, let's change your experiment a little, you have a funnel that holds a gallon of water if you close the outlet. Balance this funnel in a quart jar, fill it with ice, let the ice melt. NOW WHAT HAVE YOU GOT?
My calculations say you have a quart of water in the jar, and more than a half gallon of water all over the table, and on the carpet under the table.
quote:Originally posted by EdEKit:quote:Originally posted by Mott The Hoople:
http://www.medialens.org/alerts/06/060116_the_point_of.php
OK nash, let's change your experiment a little, you have a funnel that holds a gallon of water if you close the outlet. Balance this funnel in a quart jar, fill it with ice, let the ice melt. NOW WHAT HAVE YOU GOT?
My calculations say you have a quart of water in the jar, and more than a half gallon of water all over the table, and on the carpet under the table.
Yep, Ed... that is very true!!!!