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    "And the Lord said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go. And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the Lord, Israel is my son, even my firstborn: And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn.

    And it came to pass by the way in the inn, that the Lord met him, and sought to kill him. Then Zipporah took a sharp stone, and cut off the ******** of her son, and cast it at his feet, and said, Surely a bloody husband art thou to me. So he let him go: then she said, A bloody husband thou art, because of the circumcision."

    —Exodus 4:21-26, another wonderful and not at all baffling example of biblical morals

In the next election, San Francisco may vote on a referendum to ban circumcisions within the city limits. Predictably, some Jewish groups are calling this anti-Semitic. A little more puzzlingly, the National Association of Evangelicals is against the idea as well. (I suppose they believe that prophecy about the 144,000 converted Jewish evangelists can't come true if they aren't circumcised.)

In the past, I was noncommittal about circumcision because I'd read that it offers partial protection against the spread of some STIs, especially HIV. If that were true, then it could be justified on the ground of health benefits, just as we could defend a policy of preemptively removing every baby's appendix. But then I found out that the evidence for this claim is flimsy at best. One much-hyped study which claimed to find a dramatic protective effect from circumcision actually showed only a 2% absolute difference in transmission rates between the experimental and control groups.

That said, circumcision isn't nearly as harmful as female genital cutting, the express purpose of which is to prevent women from taking pleasure in sex. Still, the moral principle that opposes one works equally well against the other. Absent a medical reason, there's no justification for cutting off healthy, functional, innervated tissue from any baby, regardless of gender. No parent should have the right to surgically remove body parts from their child just to make their appearance comply with cultural or religious norms. (How does this weigh on the rare cases of babies born with vestigial tails? I'm still thinking about that.)

There's a simple and obvious solution which it seems San Francisco's Jewish community won't even consider: If circumcision is so important, why not just wait to have it done until boys are old enough to volunteer for it? Why is it so important to do it before a child can possibly give informed consent? I can't help but wonder if the real worry is that, if children of Jewish parents were allowed to make the decision for themselves, they wouldn't want it. There may well be some people who think that the only way to ensure the survival of this, frankly, primitive and barbaric custom is by doing it to children before they can object.

What is society's interest here? Consider this thought experiment: Imagine there was a religious sect that makes it their practice to chop off the little finger on the left hand of every boy that's born. When outsiders propose that finger-removal should be banned, they react vehemently, claiming it's a vital part of their cultural identity and a visible sign of God's covenant with them and their ancestors, and since you don't need that finger, it does no harm to the boys. Furthermore, they say, the procedure has health benefits: little fingers often get cut, bruised or broken, and by removing them, we significantly reduce the risk of that happening. They say that banning finger-removal would trample on their religious freedom and was obviously an unjust and racist persecution aimed specifically at them.

In this case, I'd hope it was obvious that society's interest in protecting the health and bodily integrity of all its citizens, including children, outweighs the right of parents to bring up their children as they see fit. I see no reason why we should reach any different conclusion just because the ritual in question is more familiar and affects a different body part.

http://www.daylightatheism.org...07/circumcision.html

i pray to Cheesus

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This is NOT a religious reply: I've studied the pros and cons of circumcision. It's a no-brainer. Circumcision prevents the spread of sexually transmitted diseases as well as some kinds of cancer and other conditions in men. It can arguably be compared to vaccinations. If you don't have your son circumcised after birth, and he has to have it done later, believe me, he will have some very angry questions for you at that time.

 

BTW, I've seen it done in OB clinics, and the infants didn't even cry. The area is protected with a numbing agent. Ask any physician or nurse how they feel about it and roughly 95% will tell you to have it done if you love your child and want what's best for them.

 

Now...if you're asking should a rabbi be allowed to perform a procedure that should be performed by a physician, that's a different question...

 

PS: If you're going to post a link to a site that argues against circumcision, I can post links to 20 pro sites for every one of yours.

FV is right.  This is not a religious issue. It is a healthcare issue, something that San Francisco has been behind te times with for generations.  This is another example of how the government is trying to get into people's business instead of allowing parents to do what is best for their children at an age when it can be accomplished with less pain and trouble.

 

Fire says, "I've studied the pros and cons of circumcision. It's a no-brainer. "

Well!  who made you the head cheese?

 

I dunno about a "no brainer." The issue is pretty hotly debated among health professionals.

I'm torn on the subject,  I'm against it for the religious implications but social pressures make it pretty tough to NOT have you child cut.  the down side seems pretty innocuous so what they hey.

Originally Posted by Unobtanium:

Fire says, "I've studied the pros and cons of circumcision. It's a no-brainer. "

Well!  who made you the head cheese?

 

I dunno about a "no brainer." The issue is pretty hotly debated among health professionals.

I'm torn on the subject,  I'm against it for the religious implications but social pressures make it pretty tough to NOT have you child cut.  the down side seems pretty innocuous so what they hey.

Sorry, Uno, but I do have strong opinions on the subject. If anyone wants to disregard my opinion, please listen to that of Dr. Yates. I doubt anyone now posting on this forum has more medical education or expertise than he.

 

And if your son goes into the army? Probably the first thing the army/other branch doc will say is "When's your first free day? I can schedule you for a quick circumcision." It's really gonna be an ouch then.

 

When I saw the original post, I looked for stats on how many refuse when they enter the military (it's not mandatory just to enlist). What I found was, uh, humorous. It seems to go to the current conflict, it's a de facto requirement because of the sand. You know what my next question is...Uh, how does the sand get there in the first place? A new version of "American Pie?"

Strong opinions on circumcision? And I don't know about Dr. Yates but there are many qualified doctors that say it isn't necessary, so I'd say it comes down to the parent's personal preferences. I'd love to meet a soldier that had a military doctor suggest it and hear the soldier's response. Do you have a re****ble link for that?

I am not telling what you can and cannot do. As a physician (and btw I was identified as one, did not express my opinion as one), a father, and a man, I can tell you that lots of the data out there that is against circumcision has come from people who have not necessairly seen the effects of repeated infection and other unpleasant things that should not necessarily be discussed in a public forum.  A child who has not been circumcised has a higher rate of problems in their pre-adult years, as well as an increased risk of UTI, if they stray from rigid hygeine. Now to whether or not I care what you do, as far as sharpening your pencil, I do not.  But, to make it illegal for parents to do this, whether they are doing it for religious or health conscious reasons is simply ludicrous.

Many of the things found in the Old Testament, were there for a reason.  People think that there were rigid laws which God made for the early Jewish nation to punish them, but in reality it probably kept them a strong and somewhat healthy race.  Their aversion from pork probably prevented outbreaks of Trichinosis which was common, just to point out one of the more prominent ones.

The risk of penile cancer and HPV infection (in both males and their femal partners) has been shown in some studies to be much higher in the uncircumcised population.  And don't even ask about 50 and 60 year old men who have to have circumcisions at that age for problems, they are miserable.

The gist of my statement is that the parents should have a right to decide which is best for their children in this case, and the government needs to stay out of people's pants.

I have known 3 men who've reached adulthood and had to have it done  for health issues. As Teyates said one was in his 60's. I don't think it should be mandatory but I don't think it should be illegal either. Obviously there are health benefits from having it done and the earlier the better from what I understand.

Not to be argumentative but why wouldn't doctors have seen the same things? I have never heard of a man in his 50s or 60s having to be circumcised. NOT saying it hasn't happened but I have never ever heard of anyone that knew anyone that knew anyone that had to have it done. If you have a doctor you trust enough to take care of your child  you should trust him/her enough to take their opinion under consideration. And yes, in the end it comes down to what the parents want. It still begs the question why would a creator put it on there in the first place only to tell them to lop it off?

Originally Posted by Jennifer:

Design flaw?  Couldn't he just have left off that part of the male *****? And no pain from a circumcision? LOL!

From an evolutionary standpoint, it makes sense to protect the very sensitive areas of the reproductive system.  Draggin that thang through a briar patch does not exactly make one willing to procreate, ya know.  Both women AND men have a forskin, by the wa, and have them for the same reasons: protection of the more vital parts and sexual stimulation.  God WANTS us to have sex, ya know..

The ******** also provides lubrication for sexual intercourse, does NOT need cleaning as some suggest (the inside is a mucus membrane that provide ample protection) - well, it doesn't need any more cleaning than the female ******.  Both keep themselves pretty clean all by themselves.  It also provides for enhanced sexual stimulation.

 

There really are no good argument FOR ******** removal despite what some say.  But societal expectations are very strong.  I see it as a long standing intrusion into even the most intimate parts of our lives by religions that started thousands of years ago and persist to this day.


@ FirenzeVeritas - "If that were true, then it could be justified on the ground of health benefits, just as we could defend a policy of preemptively removing every baby's appendix. But then I found out that the evidence for this claim is flimsy at best. One much-hyped study which claimed to find a dramatic protective effect from circumcision actually showed only a 2% absolute difference in transmission rates between the experimental and control groups."

1. Link to very interesting studies: http://www.medicirc.org/summary.html

2. Yes, my friends who, shall we say, get around, have been known to throw out a man that wasn't circumcised. (I just saw an article stating that a certain population prefer uncircumcised men, even having magazines dedicated to them, and that may be why this farce is taking place in San Francisco.)

3. It should be the choice of the parent, but it should be an informed choice. If a parent has any doubts, they should talk with a urologist about the diseases he/she has treated in uncircumcised men.

4. Go to Google images, remove filter, then look at pics of such diseases.

5. Finally, look at it this way, assuming the transmission rate for STIs is reduced by only two percent (and most studies show a much more dramatic number), that would still be one out of fifty. Would you want your son to be that one? If your physician said we're no longer giving Vitamin K shots at birth since only one out of fifty bleed to death, what would you say? Remember STIs are not the only reason for circumcision; you have to consider other infections, cancers, etc.

Originally Posted by Gnu:

@ O No! - so you're a believer. Is it based on revelation or you have some proof?

Huh? It has nothing to do with religion. The Bible says it isn't necessary anymore. But "ladies" talk about such things, and my friends who have had experience with both say that "unpeeled" is stinky and dirty no matter how much they wash, and the higher risk of disease and cancer for WOMEN who play with "unpeeled" men is higher too.

Originally Posted by O No!:

No one has mentioned this yet, but I believe most LADIES prefer a man who has been circumcised.



And there you go.  My vanity (and desire for women of the opposite sex) would demand that I circumcise myself if I had not already had that procedure.  

If you were born and raised in the UK, you'd probably prefer uncut.  http://www.circinfo.net/rates_of_circumcision.html

But it disturbs me just a little that the procedure is done for vanity purposes and with a 100% pure religion as the basis of the practice.  From that standpoint, it is no less horrifying than female genital mutilation.  Mutilation is still mutilation. 

Originally Posted by Unobtanium:
Originally Posted by O No!:

No one has mentioned this yet, but I believe most LADIES prefer a man who has been circumcised.



And there you go.  My vanity (and desire for women of the opposite sex) would demand that I circumcise myself if I had not already had that procedure.  

If you were born and raised in the UK, you'd probably prefer uncut.  http://www.circinfo.net/rates_of_circumcision.html

But it disturbs me just a little that the procedure is done for vanity purposes and with a 100% pure religion as the basis of the practice.  From that standpoint, it is no less horrifying than female genital mutilation.  Mutilation is still mutilation. 


=================

good lord unoi what else are you gonna claim you sit around worrying about? You must be a wreck. Have you tried the calming effects of alcohol? <<<snicker>>>Don't wait, it's unavailable on the Sundays.

Originally Posted by Unobtanium:
Originally Posted by O No!:

No one has mentioned this yet, but I believe most LADIES prefer a man who has been circumcised.



And there you go.  My vanity (and desire for women of the opposite sex) would demand that I circumcise myself if I had not already had that procedure.  

If you were born and raised in the UK, you'd probably prefer uncut.  http://www.circinfo.net/rates_of_circumcision.html

But it disturbs me just a little that the procedure is done for vanity purposes and with a 100% pure religion as the basis of the practice.  From that standpoint, it is no less horrifying than female genital mutilation.  Mutilation is still mutilation. 

Actually, it is a lot less horrifying than female. And i would guess more done, 'because daddy is', then any other reason.

Seems to me that the unpeeled would cause more satisfaction for the lady, but only a guess.

Originally Posted by Unobtanium:
Originally Posted by O No!:

No one has mentioned this yet, but I believe most LADIES prefer a man who has been circumcised.



And there you go.  My vanity (and desire for women of the opposite sex) would demand that I circumcise myself if I had not already had that procedure.  

If you were born and raised in the UK, you'd probably prefer uncut.  http://www.circinfo.net/rates_of_circumcision.html

But it disturbs me just a little that the procedure is done for vanity purposes and with a 100% pure religion as the basis of the practice.  From that standpoint, it is no less horrifying than female genital mutilation.  Mutilation is still mutilation. 

---------------------------

For the most part, circumcision isn't done for vanity or religion.

 

.

I can understand anyone being opposed to this on a religious basis, but circumcision was being done long before God commanded it (or whoever you may think did).

 

If you bothered to read the last link I posted, you read this:

 

The median survival time for 67-year-old men (the predicted median age for getting penile cancer) is 7.5 years[6] Life expectancy for unaffected men at this age is 12.1 years.[7] From this, one may roughly estimate 4.6 years of life lost per cancer, or more than 750 years per 105 uncircumcised men. To cause a comparable loss of years of life, circumcision would have to be responsible for approximately ten deaths per 105 neonates, assuming a life expectancy of 76 years at birth.

 

This study is for cancer only, not STIs or other serious infections that may result. (And from observation, men had much rather have cancer of the brain than the *****.)

@ FirenzeVeritas - "I can understand anyone being opposed to this on a religious basis, but circumcision was being done long before God commanded it (or whoever you may think did)."

 

That's no excuse, people didn't know what caused their sickness then, they were filthy. Who knows what other dumb practices they did to try and keep from getting sick or dieing.

Gnu, did you read any of the ACTUAL MEDICAL STUDIES on this? I'm not talking about the sites that say, "my son didn't have it done and turned out all right once he left prison."

 

Again, I encourage you to go to Google images, remove the filter, and look at what these STIs, Cancers, etc., can do to the male body. Then tell me if you wouldn't want to save men from this if it was only one in a thousand...and it's much higher.

 

Did you know that one in 300 men are born with a misplaced urethra...and some mothers don't want it corrected. How would you feel about that? Is that barbaric to correct when some see it as only cosmetic? And remember, that wasn't being corrected until the late Nineteenth Century, so many men throughout history lived with that abnormality all their lives.

Update from "The Big Cheese":

 

This 64 year old man developed a "diseased ********," and was admitted for a circumcision. More was found to have developed from the condition; here's his story...

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/new...-John-Patterson.html

 

This still may not change anyone's mind, but I'm sure this man now wishes his mother had had him circumcised when he was born. Stats for cancer of the ***** for circumcised and non-circumcised are listed in posts above.

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