"Once Saved, Always Saved" -- Really?

Hi to my Forum Friends,

For over five years, I have been doing apologetic writing on the Religion Forum of our home town newspaper, the TimesDaily.  I initially joined this forum because it was inundated and basically controlled by a handful of atheists, in alliance with a small number of other non-believers.

My purpose in joining the Religion Forum was two fold:  First, to refute their non-Christian teachings.  And, second, to make sure that readers (currently 11,000 plus loosely registered members -- and an untold number of folks who only come to the forum to read) get to read the truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and the Word of God.

On the TimesDaily Forums, there are ten forums of differing interests.  So, I will have to extrapolate to say that, on the Religion Forum, this being Alabama (belt buckle of the Bible Belt), we must get our share of readers.

One of the hot-button issues which immediately draws the ire and stones from my non-believing Forum Friends -- is my contention that salvation is by the grace of God, through faith in Jesus Christ -- plus nothing else.

Another "ire and stone attraction" is my belief that once a person has sincerely invited Jesus Christ into his/her heart, i.e., has become a true Christian believer -- that person has the personal promise of Jesus Christ that he/she HAS eternal life in Christ.  In other words, the sincerely confessed believer HAS eternal security in Jesus Christ -- and will never lose that salvation.   On most platforms this is loosely referred to as "once saved, always saved" -- or, on the Religion Forum, OSAS.

My non-believing Friends on the Religion Forum continue to challenge me to prove these beliefs.  And, when I do offer Biblical foundation for my beliefs -- they refuse to hear it, they deny it, and they keep asking me, "Bill, you are always preaching OSAS.   Prove it!"

Wee, gee whiz, fellows and gals -- I have shown you practically every Scripture verse in the Bible -- supported by commentary writings from many very knowledgeable pastors, theologians, and Bible scholars.  Yet, you still demand, "Prove it!"

Of course, we all know that, "There is no so blind -- as he who will not see!"

Today, on the Hope Bible Institute Facebook page (a ministry of the Church of Hope, Laguna Woods, California, pastored by my long time Friend, Pastor Freddy Cortez) -- I viewed an amazing video about Free Grace Theology and what this means.

The video is from the Free Grace Alliance and the speaker is Dr. Charlie Bing -- one of the best speakers I have heard in a long time.  Dr. Bing, Founder, Director, and past President of Free Grace Alliance, earned his Th.M. and Ph.D. from Dallas Theological Seminary.  He pastored Burleson Bible Church in Texas for 19 years before transitioning to GraceLife full-time in 2005.  He has served as Adjunct Professor of Biblical Studies for LeTourneau University since 1992.  He is active as a speaker for churches and  conferences in the United States and abroad and has published a number of books and articles on the gospel, salvation, evangelism, and discipleship

In this video, Dr. Bing gives one of the best explanations of Free Grace and Salvation Through Faith Alone, plus giving Biblical support for Eternal Assurance in Jesus Christ, that I have heard.   Immediately, I realized that I want to share this video, this eternally important message -- with all my Friends.  The video is about 48 minutes long; so, get a cup of coffee, kick back, and grow in your faith and assurance of eternal life in Christ.

 

Intro to Free Grace:  Dr. Charlie Bing
From Free Grace Alliance
http://vimeo.com/2919716


And, visiting Dr. Bing's ministry web site, GraceLife Ministries http://www.gracelife.org/aboutus.asp I find that his Statement of Faith aligns perfectly with my own Statement of Beliefs and, what I have been writing for the past twenty years -- what I have presented during the past twelve years in my Friends Ministry enewsletters -- what I shared on The Conservative Voice for three years -- and the message I have shared for over five years on the TimesDaily Religion forum.

GraceLife Statement of Faith:


We believe that there is one God eternally existing in three persons:  The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

We believe that the Bible is God's authoritative written revelation to man.  We believe in the verbal plenary inspiration  of the Scriptures and that they are without error in the original manuscripts.  Scripture should be interpreted according to its historical, grammatical, and normal sense.

We believe in the deity of Jesus Christ, that he also took on humanity at His virgin birth, lived a sinless life, performed miracles, died on the cross to provide for the redemption of all people, bodily rose from the grave, ascended into heaven, and presently is making intercession for us.

We believe in the personality and deity of the Holy Spirit, that He performs the miracle of new birth in an unbeliever and indwells believers enabling them to live a godly life.

We believe that man was created in the image of God, but because of sin was alienated from God.

We believe in the Gospel of Grace, that by simply and only believing in Jesus Christ alone for the eternal salvation made possible by His death and resurrection that our alienation can be removed and eternal life received.

We believe that once saved, the believer can never lose that salvation, and that it is therefore the privilege of everyone who believes to have assurance of salvation, which is not based on works but on the promises of God's Word.

We believe that we are not only saved from the penalty of sin by grace through faith, but we believe that we are also empowered by the Holy Spirit for daily living and victory over sin by grace through faith.

We believe in the Premillennial Return of Jesus Christ to earth in power and glory when He will establish the kingdom.

We believe in the Imminent Pretribulational Rapture of the church.  We believe that following the rapture of the church, all believers will stand before the judgment seat of Christ where believers will appear to give an account for how their lives were lived as believers.  We believe that faithfulness will be rewarded by Christ Himself and that special privileges in the millennial kingdom and eternity will be given to those believers who have lived their lives faithfully while loss of reward will be accorded to those who have not.

We believe those who reject Christ's offer of salvation will suffer eternal punishment in the Lake of Fire with the devil and his angels.


Do yourself a favor and view this complete video.   As I said, get a cup of coffee, you may want to also have your Bible handy, sit back, relax, and truly listen to the message presented by Dr. Charlie Bing.  His message is powerful.

Why should you take my word for this -- what are my credentials?  I am only a born-again believer who opened the door of my heart to allow Jesus Christ to enter in 1987.  Shortly after that, I began to do Christian writing -- in my own snail-mail newsletter "The Good News" -- writing tracts and church bulletin inserts -- and sharing wherever God presented the opportunity. 

 

Twelve years ago, I began to study and write full time, sharing messages of Christian encouragement and being pulled more and more into apologetic writings.   At the time, I did not consider myself an apologetic writer; only that I was responding to comments and questions sent to me by Friends.

My Friend, Pastor Ed Dacio, told me one day, "Brother Bill, you are an apologetic writer."   Hmmm, I had never given any thought to a label of any sort -- just that when a Friend had a comment or question which needed an answer -- God had made it possible for me to have the time and resources to probe, research, study, contemplate, and seek an appropriate response.

Have I ever been wrong?  You betcha!  But, when I have found that my response was, in any way, erroneous or misleading -- I have sought to find the correct answer and submit that to my Friends.

I will say this.  There have been times when I have been wrong in my interpretation of Biblical passages -- and, I pray that when this has happened, I have been, or am, able to correct that and move on.  However, I do not believe I am wrong in my Doctrinal Beliefs, or my Statement of Beliefs -- which, as I said earlier, align very well with those shown above.

So, I pray that you will get as much from Dr. Bing's video message as I did -- and, that you have a better understanding of why I feel called to share such resources, along with my writings, to all my Friends.

If you find this useful, please feel free to share it with your Friends, Relatives, Associates, and Neighbors -- all your FRANs.  Let's  keep sharing God's Word and the Gospel of Jesus Christ with the world -- until He returns.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Friends_Piggy_Bear_TEXT

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The following can indicate a delusion:

 

The patient expresses an idea or belief with unusual persistence or force. Check!

 

That idea appears to exert an undue influence on the patient's life, and the way of life is often altered to an inexplicable extent. Yep!

 

The individual tends to be humorless and oversensitive, especially about the belief. Hmm...

 

An attempt to contradict the belief is likely to arouse an inappropriately strong emotional reaction, often with irritability and hostility. Ditto!

 

The patient is emotionally over-invested in the idea and it overwhelms other elements of their psyche. True!

 

The individual experiences a heightened sense of self-reference. Events which, to others, are nonsignificant are of enormous significance to him or her, and the atmosphere surrounding the delusions is highly charged. BINGO!

 

 

Bill you referred to those of us that don't believe in your OSAS theory as non-believers.

If you consider these as "power words" they are also lying words and you have mis-represented us to your readers. We are believers not non as you have branded us. At this point you are in sin and without repenting, asking us forgiveness and Gods forgiveness you will be lost. Do you not agree? Do not lump us believers in with fish and deep.

 Matthew 13:22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful.  

1Corinthians 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.  

1 Tim. 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;  

Heb. 2: 1 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.  

Heb. 3: 12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.  

Heb. 4: 1  Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.  

Heb. 4: 11 Let us labor therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.   

Heb. 12: 15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;  

2 Peter 3: 17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own steadfastness.

Originally Posted by ReleaseTheElephant:

 

The following can indicate a delusion:

 

The patient expresses an idea or belief with unusual persistence or force. Check!

 

That idea appears to exert an undue influence on the patient's life, and the way of life is often altered to an inexplicable extent. Yep!

 

The individual tends to be humorless and oversensitive, especially about the belief. Hmm...

 

An attempt to contradict the belief is likely to arouse an inappropriately strong emotional reaction, often with irritability and hostility. Ditto!

 

The patient is emotionally over-invested in the idea and it overwhelms other elements of their psyche. True!

 

The individual experiences a heightened sense of self-reference. Events which, to others, are nonsignificant are of enormous significance to him or her, and the atmosphere surrounding the delusions is highly charged. BINGO!

 

___________________________________________________________________________
Sounds EXACTLY like some atheists I know! 

 

The doctrine of Once Saved always Saved very often causes controversy among fellow Christian believers for it is very tender and fiercely debated topic and each side or each sides advocates have very strong scriptural references to support their contention or position.  This, at times, fierce contention among Christians, played out in front of non-Christians, often leads more to, what appears to be folly, rather than constructive dialog.

 

I know I have personally wavered throughout my Christian life and in studies as to what I accepted as doctrine and what I believed that Scriptures reinforced and taught.  Often times I find that even those who argue and debate the issue actually believe much the same thing but differ only in one narrow area.  By this I mean the thought of losing one's salvation.   Most Christians do not believe that Satan or another person can rob a true Christian of their Salvation or that a person's salvation can be taken from outside.  

 

The real point of contention therefore, as I have observed it, is whether the Christian themselves can reach a point that they make a determined decision to renounce Christ and their decision.  That is usually the primary point of contention.  Those who advocate that a person can renounce their Salvation and leave God or reject God ,once they have met and been saved,  will then cite the act itself, or rejecting God, as blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, given that it is the Holy Spirit that God uses to communicate with humankind.  These are not the only differences in this discussion and doctrinal differences and beliefs how a person can lose salvation, if possible, but I believe they are the main ones in most cases.

 

For those who advocate OSAS doctrine the choice of those words often portray, to other Christians, that we believe in an insurance policy that permits the Christian to sin and continue to sin as they wish without regard for the Holy Spirit or Christ Sacrifice on the Cross or God's Will.

 

I personally believe this is a valid doctrine to discuss and debate among Christian believers but not to the point that the Cause of Christ is harmed or damaged.  I do not believe this is a profitable discussion to have with persons that are admittingly not Christians or non-believers but that is just my personal opinion.  I personally, therefore, believe that this discussion, on this particular topic, is most wisely handled and addressed in Personal Dialogs among fellow professing Christians that desire to participate in such a discussion.  Just my personal opinion but regardless suggest for the sake of Christian unity that we keep it respectful, presenting our respective positions and allowing God's Holy Spirit to minister to the hearts and minds and confirm God's truth regarding this doctrine.  

Here is what I read:  "Blah, blah, blah, blah, I'm right, everyone else is wrong, or they just don't believe, blah, blah, blah."   All done in a horrendous mixture of quotation marks, bold type, underlined type, and italicized type with a silly picture tacked on at the end.  That he only used two different colors is an unusual show of restraint.

HI OK,

You tell me, "Bill, you referred to those of us that don't believe in your OSAS theory as non-believers.  If you consider these as  "power words" they are also lying words and you have mis-represented us to your readers.  We are believers, not non-believers, as you have branded us."

Well, yes and no.  If you will read my introduction, you will see that I write:

 

I initially joined this forum because it was inundated and  basically controlled by a handful of atheists, in alliance with a small number of other non-believers.  My purpose in joining the Religion Forum was two fold:  First, to refute their non-Christian teachings.

One of the hot-button issues which immediately draws the ire and stones from my non-believing Forum  Friends -- is my contention that salvation is by the grace of God, through faith in Jesus Christ -- plus nothing else.

 

Another "ire and stone attraction" is my belief that once a person has sincerely invited Jesus Christ into his/her heart, i.e., has become a true Christian believer -- that person has the personal promise of Jesus Christ that he/she HAS eternal life in Christ.

 

So, my whole focus is on addressing those folk -- those atheists and other non-believers who jump on these issues when I mention  them.  That was my focus.  And, although there are Christian believers who also disagree with me -- my mental focus was not on  them -- but, instead, it was on the atheist and other non-believers.

However, you are right that my post could be taken to imply anyone who disagrees with me on "once saved, always saved."  And, with that line of thought in mind; then that would have been a misstatement!  Therefore, to anyone in our Christian camp who thought I was addressing you; please believe that was not my intent.  If any of my Christian Friends were offended, please accept my  apologies.

I realize that many of my Liberal Theology Friends and also those who are in a more legalistic belief system, such as yourself, OK --  do not believe in "once saved, always saved" or in the teaching of "eternal security."   That does not, in any way, mean that I believe these Friends are not Christian, nor that they are not saved.  One is not saved by their theological beliefs -- but, only by grace, through faith in Jesus Christ.  So, I do offer my apologies for that misunderstanding or misstatement.

Now, you know why I wrote in my initial post:


Have I ever been wrong?  You betcha!  But, when I have found that my response was, in any way, erroneous or misleading -- I have sought to find the correct answer and submit that to my Friends.

I will say this.  There have been times when I have been wrong in my interpretation of Biblical passages -- and, I pray that when this has happened, I have been, or am, able to correct that and move on.


So, I pray we can move past this boo-boo and keep walking as Christian brothers.

Then, you tell me, "At this point you are in sin and without repenting, asking us forgiveness, and Gods forgiveness -- you will be lost.  Do you not agree?  Do not lump us believers in with fish and deep."

No, I would never lump believers with Deep, Fish, or any of our atheist and non-believing Friends.  While some of we believers have traded blows in the past -- the only really nasty and offensive attacks toward me have come from the non-believing side.

Yes, I made an error in what I wrote, or how I wrote it -- but, was that a sin?  Possibly a sin of omission or oversight; but, not a deliberate sin of disobedience toward God, nor was it meant as an attack against you or any Christian believer.  It was, as I said, a misstatement -- an erroneous statement.

But, when you ask, "At this point you are in sin and without repenting, asking us forgiveness, and Gods forgiveness -- you will be lost.  Do you not agree?"

No, I totally disagree.  And, if you would have watched the video before responding you would have understood why I say that I disagree.   Once a person has been declared "righteous" by Jesus Christ; once a person has been declared "saved" by Jesus Christ  -- His blood on the cross has paid our sin debt -- "in full."

That includes all past sins, all current sins, and all future sins.  When His righteousness is imputed, attributed, to us -- from that point in time and forever -- when God looks at us, He sees only the righteousness of Jesus Christ.  Jesus Christ is our "righteousness umbrella."


Romans 3:22,  "Even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; . . ."

Romans 4:4-5, "Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.  But to the one who does not  work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness."

Romans 8:10, "If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness."


Can we ever have righteousness based upon us, our works, or anything else that we do?  No.  We are told in Isaiah 64:6, "For all of  us have become like one who is unclean, And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment. . ."  So, anything we do, in our right, to please God, i.e., works, etc. -- He sees as filthy garments.  In our own righteousness, we can NEVER be saved; for God cannot  look upon our unrighteousness.

However, when Jesus Christ hangs His umbrella of righteousness over us -- all God sees is His righteousness when He looks at us.   When we believe and receive Jesus Christ as our personal Lord and Savior, we become children of God (John 1:12) -- He adopts us into His Family.  Once in His family, no one can snatch us out of His hands (John 10:28-29).  From the moment we become children of God, we are sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of our redemption (Ephesians 1:13, 4:30).  The day of our redemption is the day we die or are raptured.

So, Ok, when you ask, "At this point you are in sin and without repenting, asking us forgiveness, and Gods forgiveness -- you will be lost.  Do you not agree?"

First, I have not sinned.  I made a statement which could have been, and obviously was, misunderstood.  But, I still do apologize and ask your forgiveness for not being more clear in what I wrote.

However, when you say that a sin, any sin, can cause me, or anyone, to lose our salvation -- that is absolutely wrong.  As we can see above, from the moment of our salvation -- we are indwelled and sealed for God by the Holy Spirit; no one can snatch us out of His hands because we are children of God -- and, we will stay adopted into His family until the day of our redemption.

But, does that give us a license to sin?  Absolutely not!  Every believer will have to stand before Jesus Christ at the Believer's Judgment, Bema Seat Judgment (2 Corinthians 5:10, 1 Corinthians 3:11-15, 1 Peter 5:4) -- and account for everything we said or did in this life.  For all our sins, we will have to answer for that sin directly to our Lord Jesus Christ.  If we, by word or deed, hurt another  -- we will have to answer for that directly to our Lord Jesus Christ.

There is no "free ride."  And, I can imagine that it will be very, very uncomfortable standing before our perfect Lord -- explaining all the petty, nasty, and sometimes viscous things we do to others in this life.   No "free ride."   No "get out of jail free" card.

Only a very flawed, but forgiven, sinner explaining every single sin to our Lord -- while He looks us in the eye.

 

Let me close by strongly suggesting that you watch this video by Dr. Charlie Bing.  I had heard of him before; but, this is the first time I have seen his work.  I am very impressed -- with his theology, with his demeanor, with his teaching skills, and with his message.  In my opinion, he was right on the mark.   

Even if you do not believe in "once saved, always saved" -- do yourself a favor and watch his video anyway.  Either you will become a  believer in "eternal security" -- or you will learn good arguing points to support your own belief system.  Either way, it is time well spent.


God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Bill, the book of Hebrews completely destroys your OSAS foundation, causing it to crumble.

I’ve often heard it said that the doctrine taught in Hebrews is only for the Jews. That’s bull crap. Christians have no problem accepting the blessings given in the book, (intercessory prayers of Christ, supernatural faith, divine provision, access to the throne of grace, etc.). If one aspect of Hebrews is to be applied to Christians, then so should the "whole counsel" of the book.

 

Some scriptures that comes to mind is Hebrews 6:4-8 (KJV)

(4) For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

(5) And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

(6) If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

(7) For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:

(8) But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

 

It is apparent that this is speaking of a BELIEVER!!! Notice it says "once enlightened", "tasted of the heavenly gift" "were made partakers of the Holy Ghost". You cannot partake of the Holy Ghost by merely attending church, taking communion, being baptized, etc.. You are only a partaker of Him, when He is in you! He has "tasted" the word of God, and enjoyed the "powers of the world to come".

It would be impossible for an unbeliever to be given this privilege by God! Do you know of any unbeliever/sinners who have enjoyed the powers of the world to come?

 

Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Hi to my Forum Friends,

For over five years, I have been doing apologetic writing on the Religion Forum of our home town newspaper, the TimesDaily.  I initially joined this forum because it was inundated and basically controlled by a handful of atheists, in alliance with a small number of other non-believers.

My purpose in joining the Religion Forum was two fold:  First, to refute their non-Christian teachings.  And, second, to make sure that readers (currently 11,000 plus loosely registered members -- and an untold number of folks who only come to the forum to read) get to read the truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and the Word of God.

On the TimesDaily Forums, there are ten forums of differing interests.  So, I will have to extrapolate to say that, on the Religion Forum, this being Alabama (belt buckle of the Bible Belt), we must get our share of readers.

One of the hot-button issues which immediately draws the ire and stones from my non-believing Forum Friends -- is my contention that salvation is by the grace of God, through faith in Jesus Christ -- plus nothing else.

Another "ire and stone attraction" is my belief that once a person has sincerely invited Jesus Christ into his/her heart, i.e., has become a true Christian believer -- that person has the personal promise of Jesus Christ that he/she HAS eternal life in Christ.  In other words, the sincerely confessed believer HAS eternal security in Jesus Christ -- and will never lose that salvation.   On most platforms this is loosely referred to as "once saved, always saved" -- or, on the Religion Forum, OSAS.

My non-believing Friends on the Religion Forum continue to challenge me to prove these beliefs.  And, when I do offer Biblical foundation for my beliefs -- they refuse to hear it, they deny it, and they keep asking me, "Bill, you are always preaching OSAS.   Prove it!"

Wee, gee whiz, fellows and gals -- I have shown you practically every Scripture verse in the Bible -- supported by commentary writings from many very knowledgeable pastors, theologians, and Bible scholars.  Yet, you still demand, "Prove it!"

Of course, we all know that, "There is no so blind -- as he who will not see!"

Today, on the Hope Bible Institute Facebook page (a ministry of the Church of Hope, Laguna Woods, California, pastored by my long time Friend, Pastor Freddy Cortez) -- I viewed an amazing video about Free Grace Theology and what this means.

The video is from the Free Grace Alliance and the speaker is Dr. Charlie Bing -- one of the best speakers I have heard in a long time.  Dr. Bing, Founder, Director, and past President of Free Grace Alliance, earned his Th.M. and Ph.D. from Dallas Theological Seminary.  He pastored Burleson Bible Church in Texas for 19 years before transitioning to GraceLife full-time in 2005.  He has served as Adjunct Professor of Biblical Studies for LeTourneau University since 1992.  He is active as a speaker for churches and  conferences in the United States and abroad and has published a number of books and articles on the gospel, salvation, evangelism, and discipleship

In this video, Dr. Bing gives one of the best explanations of Free Grace and Salvation Through Faith Alone, plus giving Biblical support for Eternal Assurance in Jesus Christ, that I have heard.   Immediately, I realized that I want to share this video, this eternally important message -- with all my Friends.  The video is about 48 minutes long; so, get a cup of coffee, kick back, and grow in your faith and assurance of eternal life in Christ.

 

Intro to Free Grace:  Dr. Charlie Bing
From Free Grace Alliance
http://vimeo.com/2919716


And, visiting Dr. Bing's ministry web site, GraceLife Ministries http://www.gracelife.org/aboutus.asp I find that his Statement of Faith aligns perfectly with my own Statement of Beliefs and, what I have been writing for the past twenty years -- what I have presented during the past twelve years in my Friends Ministry enewsletters -- what I shared on The Conservative Voice for three years -- and the message I have shared for over five years on the TimesDaily Religion forum.

GraceLife Statement of Faith:


We believe that there is one God eternally existing in three persons:  The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

We believe that the Bible is God's authoritative written revelation to man.  We believe in the verbal plenary inspiration  of the Scriptures and that they are without error in the original manuscripts.  Scripture should be interpreted according to its historical, grammatical, and normal sense.

We believe in the deity of Jesus Christ, that he also took on humanity at His virgin birth, lived a sinless life, performed miracles, died on the cross to provide for the redemption of all people, bodily rose from the grave, ascended into heaven, and presently is making intercession for us.

We believe in the personality and deity of the Holy Spirit, that He performs the miracle of new birth in an unbeliever and indwells believers enabling them to live a godly life.

We believe that man was created in the image of God, but because of sin was alienated from God.

We believe in the Gospel of Grace, that by simply and only believing in Jesus Christ alone for the eternal salvation made possible by His death and resurrection that our alienation can be removed and eternal life received.

We believe that once saved, the believer can never lose that salvation, and that it is therefore the privilege of everyone who believes to have assurance of salvation, which is not based on works but on the promises of God's Word.

We believe that we are not only saved from the penalty of sin by grace through faith, but we believe that we are also empowered by the Holy Spirit for daily living and victory over sin by grace through faith.

We believe in the Premillennial Return of Jesus Christ to earth in power and glory when He will establish the kingdom.

We believe in the Imminent Pretribulational Rapture of the church.  We believe that following the rapture of the church, all believers will stand before the judgment seat of Christ where believers will appear to give an account for how their lives were lived as believers.  We believe that faithfulness will be rewarded by Christ Himself and that special privileges in the millennial kingdom and eternity will be given to those believers who have lived their lives faithfully while loss of reward will be accorded to those who have not.

We believe those who reject Christ's offer of salvation will suffer eternal punishment in the Lake of Fire with the devil and his angels.


Do yourself a favor and view this complete video.   As I said, get a cup of coffee, you may want to also have your Bible handy, sit back, relax, and truly listen to the message presented by Dr. Charlie Bing.  His message is powerful.

Why should you take my word for this -- what are my credentials?  I am only a born-again believer who opened the door of my heart to allow Jesus Christ to enter in 1987.  Shortly after that, I began to do Christian writing -- in my own snail-mail newsletter "The Good News" -- writing tracts and church bulletin inserts -- and sharing wherever God presented the opportunity. 

 

Twelve years ago, I began to study and write full time, sharing messages of Christian encouragement and being pulled more and more into apologetic writings.   At the time, I did not consider myself an apologetic writer; only that I was responding to comments and questions sent to me by Friends.

My Friend, Pastor Ed Dacio, told me one day, "Brother Bill, you are an apologetic writer."   Hmmm, I had never given any thought to a label of any sort -- just that when a Friend had a comment or question which needed an answer -- God had made it possible for me to have the time and resources to probe, research, study, contemplate, and seek an appropriate response.

Have I ever been wrong?  You betcha!  But, when I have found that my response was, in any way, erroneous or misleading -- I have sought to find the correct answer and submit that to my Friends.

I will say this.  There have been times when I have been wrong in my interpretation of Biblical passages -- and, I pray that when this has happened, I have been, or am, able to correct that and move on.  However, I do not believe I am wrong in my Doctrinal Beliefs, or my Statement of Beliefs -- which, as I said earlier, align very well with those shown above.

So, I pray that you will get as much from Dr. Bing's video message as I did -- and, that you have a better understanding of why I feel called to share such resources, along with my writings, to all my Friends.

If you find this useful, please feel free to share it with your Friends, Relatives, Associates, and Neighbors -- all your FRANs.  Let's  keep sharing God's Word and the Gospel of Jesus Christ with the world -- until He returns.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Friends_Piggy_Bear_TEXT


Who cares?

Originally Posted by O No!:
Originally Posted by ReleaseTheElephant:

 

The following can indicate a delusion:

 

The patient expresses an idea or belief with unusual persistence or force. Check!

 

That idea appears to exert an undue influence on the patient's life, and the way of life is often altered to an inexplicable extent. Yep!

 

The individual tends to be humorless and oversensitive, especially about the belief. Hmm...

 

An attempt to contradict the belief is likely to arouse an inappropriately strong emotional reaction, often with irritability and hostility. Ditto!

 

The patient is emotionally over-invested in the idea and it overwhelms other elements of their psyche. True!

 

The individual experiences a heightened sense of self-reference. Events which, to others, are nonsignificant are of enormous significance to him or her, and the atmosphere surrounding the delusions is highly charged. BINGO!

 

___________________________________________________________________________
Sounds EXACTLY like some atheists I know! 

 

Sounds EXACTLY like some bible thumpers I know.

Bill, I've asked some people this question and never really got anything that approximated an answer. Why do some churches need a "declaration of faith" or something similar? Isn't the Bible enough? Is there much difference in adding a "declaration of faith" and adding another testament, ala Mormons?

Semi:  Bill accuses everyone of not accepting his "facts" when he has repeatedly shown them.  Of course we all know that Bill is a hypocrite, so why would you expect him to accept any passages that contradict his way of thinking even when you have shown him over and over?

Originally Posted by CrustyMac:

Semi:  Bill accuses everyone of not accepting his "facts" when he has repeatedly shown them.  Of course we all know that Bill is a hypocrite, so why would you expect him to accept any passages that contradict his way of thinking even when you have shown him over and over?

*********************************

Yep, sorta stupid of me to keep it up when he refuses to answer anything that contradicts what he preaches.

Even though he is a hypocrite of the highest order, I still feel sorta sorry for him. He's going to get a rude awakening one day.

How long do you think it will take him to declare this topic a spitting contest & start another one?

 

Originally Posted by semiannualchick:

Bill, the book of Hebrews completely destroys your OSAS foundation, causing it to crumble.

I’ve often heard it said that the doctrine taught in Hebrews is only for the Jews. That’s bull crap. Christians have no problem accepting the blessings given in the book, (intercessory prayers of Christ, supernatural faith, divine provision, access to the throne of grace, etc.). If one aspect of Hebrews is to be applied to Christians, then so should the "whole counsel" of the book.

 

Some scriptures that comes to mind is Hebrews 6:4-8 (KJV)

(4) For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

(5) And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

(6) If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

(7) For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:

(8) But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

 

It is apparent that this is speaking of a BELIEVER!!! Notice it says "once enlightened", "tasted of the heavenly gift" "were made partakers of the Holy Ghost". You cannot partake of the Holy Ghost by merely attending church, taking communion, being baptized, etc.. You are only a partaker of Him, when He is in you! He has "tasted" the word of God, and enjoyed the "powers of the world to come".

It would be impossible for an unbeliever to be given this privilege by God! Do you know of any unbeliever/sinners who have enjoyed the powers of the world to come?

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

semi, you are right in the fact that Heb 6: 4-8 doesn't support OSAS.

 

Heb 6: 4-8

 [4] For it is impossible for those who were once illuminated, have tasted also the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, [5] Have moreover tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, [6] And are fallen away: to be renewed again to penance, crucifying again to themselves the Son of God, and making him a mockery. [7] For the earth that drinketh in the rain which cometh often upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is tilled, receiveth blessing from God. [8] But that which bringeth forth thorns and briers, is reprobate, and very near unto a curse, whose end is to be burnt.

 

[4] "It is impossible"... The meaning is, that it is impossible for such as have fallen after baptism, to be again baptized; and very hard for such as have apostatized from the faith, after having received many graces, to return again to the happy state from which they fell.

++++++++++++++++

 

Bill usually has ahout 50 chapter and verse that he rewrites the meanings

for, why not this time? Could it be the free ticket video?

.

Matthew 27 and Mark 15 both say Jesus said "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?", was offered vinegar, cried out again and died.

Luke 23 says that Jesus was offered vinegar more than three hours before dying, and said several things afterwards. It also says that his last words were "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit."

John says that Jesus said he was thirsty and was given the vinegar. From there, he said "It is finished" and died.

 

These words are from NIV, which actually includes the Aramaic for Matthew and Mark, though it spells them differently. (Hrm. So, those are also inconsistent. Hrm.)

So, we have two disparate timelines, and three distinct versions of what Jesus's last words were. Which of these is correct?

If we go with the first account, in Matthew and Mark, then both Luke and John are incorrect. If we go with either Luke or John, then three of the Gospels are incorrect.

We have a situation here where clearly there is error in the Bible. It cannot all be literal truth if there are three statements here that contradict each other.

If the Bible is not all literal truth, how can we (as mere, flawed humans) determine which parts are literal truth and which are not? Can we honestly have any faith in the absolute literal truthfulness of a work which is clearly not absolutely literally true? What percentage of the book, then, should we believe to be correct, as it clearly is not 100% so?

 

I cannot put my faith in something as literal truth when I know it is flawed. I cannot put my faith in something as the word of God when it clearly has had thousands of years of men's hands in it.

 

Consider, as recently as 1960, in a tremendously well-documented society, a man was born in Hawaii, and yet 50 years later we have people who believe AS ABSOLUTE TRUTH that he was not, and writing about it, and broadcasting their misunderstandings. In 1,000 years, if those were the writings found by future archaeologists, they would come to the conclusion that the man was not born in Hawaii, despite the well-documented reality of the situation.

 

From a largely pre-literate society, where some people had something to gain from making the fish a little bigger in their fish stories, I have negligible faith in the surviving writings as literal truth. Especially when they contradict each other.

Originally Posted by NunyoBidness:

Matthew 27 and Mark 15 both say Jesus said "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?", was offered vinegar, cried out again and died.

Luke 23 says that Jesus was offered vinegar more than three hours before dying, and said several things afterwards. It also says that his last words were "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit."

John says that Jesus said he was thirsty and was given the vinegar. From there, he said "It is finished" and died.

 

These words are from NIV, which actually includes the Aramaic for Matthew and Mark, though it spells them differently. (Hrm. So, those are also inconsistent. Hrm.)

So, we have two disparate timelines, and three distinct versions of what Jesus's last words were. Which of these is correct?

If we go with the first account, in Matthew and Mark, then both Luke and John are incorrect. If we go with either Luke or John, then three of the Gospels are incorrect.

We have a situation here where clearly there is error in the Bible. It cannot all be literal truth if there are three statements here that contradict each other.

If the Bible is not all literal truth, how can we (as mere, flawed humans) determine which parts are literal truth and which are not? Can we honestly have any faith in the absolute literal truthfulness of a work which is clearly not absolutely literally true? What percentage of the book, then, should we believe to be correct, as it clearly is not 100% so?

 

I cannot put my faith in something as literal truth when I know it is flawed. I cannot put my faith in something as the word of God when it clearly has had thousands of years of men's hands in it.

 

Consider, as recently as 1960, in a tremendously well-documented society, a man was born in Hawaii, and yet 50 years later we have people who believe AS ABSOLUTE TRUTH that he was not, and writing about it, and broadcasting their misunderstandings. In 1,000 years, if those were the writings found by future archaeologists, they would come to the conclusion that the man was not born in Hawaii, despite the well-documented reality of the situation.

 

From a largely pre-literate society, where some people had something to gain from making the fish a little bigger in their fish stories, I have negligible faith in the surviving writings as literal truth. Especially when they contradict each other.

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

 

Your right about that, I know it's none of my business, but you should

put that Bible down and leave it alone.

 

BTW,There is zero documented reality of the situation.

It's called a very very bad attempt.

 

.

Invictus,  don't you realize that this is one of the patented replies that atheist and non-believers have stored up just in case they were wrong about God.

 

I don't know what number it is but essentially it's:  

  • Couldn't believe in you because your Book Lied
  • The Bible had too many contradictions in it
  • It was too difficult to understand

etc ... etc .... etc ....  too many to actually attempt to print I'm sure.

Originally Posted by gbrk:

Invictus,  don't you realize that this is one of the patented replies that atheist and non-believers have stored up just in case they were wrong about God.

 

I don't know what number it is but essentially it's:  

  • Couldn't believe in you because your Book Lied
  • The Bible had too many contradictions in it
  • It was too difficult to understand

etc ... etc .... etc ....  too many to actually attempt to print I'm sure.

Yes, I know what you're saying gb, I was just trying to save the

boy some time. He could be reading cosmopolitan or something.

 

What I'm not seeing is common sense faith, so I don't see me having to

share a room in Heaven as of yet.

.

Hi all,

 

Just curious.  Has ANYONE bothered to watch the video?  If you will, you will find that many of your questions are answered.  While most Christians will want to hear his answers, even if you disagree with Dr. Bing -- you may find yourself agreeing with him on many things.

 

And, I realize that no matter what Dr. Bing, or anyone else teaches -- there are those non-believers who will stick their heads in the sand -- declaring they see nothing.  In other words, they are doing a good Sgt. Schultz impression, "I see nothing!  I hear nothing!  I know nothing!"  And, like Pharaoh, they will continue to harden their hearts.

 

But, for all my Friends with an "inquiring mind" -- I sincerely urge you to view Dr. Bing's video.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

I haven't had time yet, Bill. After you posted it yesterday, I had a few things that needed to be done and then I had to leave to be someplace. Today is busy too, and although I have had time to pop in between giving lessons, I haven't had time to watch the whole thing all the way through. I'll watch it tonight after I have closed the shop - that way I will be able to give it my full attention.

Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Hi all,

 

Just curious.  Has ANYONE bothered to watch the video?  If you will, you will find that many of your questions are answered.  While most Christians will want to hear his answers, even if you disagree with Dr. Bing -- you may find yourself agreeing with him on many things.

 

And, I realize that no matter what Dr. Bing, or anyone else teaches -- there are those non-believers who will stick their heads in the sand -- declaring they see nothing.  In other words, they are doing a good Sgt. Schultz impression, "I see nothing!  I hear nothing!  I know nothing!"  And, like Pharaoh, they will continue to harden their hearts.

 

But, for all my Friends with an "inquiring mind" -- I sincerely urge you to view Dr. Bing's video.

 

 

+++++++++++++++

( Hand raised )  I have not bothered to watch the video.

If I disagree with Bing, how do I agree with him?

 

I can't hear you Billie-je, I've got sand in my ears. 

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

Well gb, first of all the bible IS full of contradictions and should be treated like any other book of fantasy such as Harry Potter.  

Well, more Bibles have been sold than wonder woman, Lois Lane and

Bat Man funny books put together. There is some interest in it.
.

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

Well invictus, why don't you just think about that? I think it's pretty easy to see why. How many hundreds of years head start did your bible get?

---------------------

No No, The potters are based on a true story and got beat hands down.

 

.

Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Hi all,

Just curious.  Has ANYONE bothered to watch the video

 

And, I realize that no matter what Dr. Bing, or anyone else teaches -- there are those non-believers who will stick their heads in the sand -- declaring they see nothing.  In other words, they are doing a good Sgt. Schultz impression, "I see nothing!  I hear nothing!  I know nothing!"  

Bill

*************************************

Bill, I didn't watch the video because I'm sure it supports OSAS or you wouldn't have put it on here.

There will always be those people like you that stick their heads in the sand when people give them scriptures that teach against OSAS.

You do a good impression of "I see nothing!  I hear nothing!  I know nothing!"  when you refuse to address those scriptures.

 

Originally Posted by INVICTUS:

semi, you are right in the fact that Heb 6: 4-8 doesn't support OSAS.

Heb 6: 4-8

 [4] For it is impossible for those who were once illuminated, have tasted also the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, [5] Have moreover tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, [6] And are fallen away: to be renewed again to penance, crucifying again to themselves the Son of God, and making him a mockery. [7] For the earth that drinketh in the rain which cometh often upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is tilled, receiveth blessing from God. [8] But that which bringeth forth thorns and briers, is reprobate, and very near unto a curse, whose end is to be burnt.

 

[4] "It is impossible"... The meaning is, that it is impossible for such as have fallen after baptism, to be again baptized; and very hard for such as have apostatized from the faith, after having received many graces, to return again to the happy state from which they fell.

++++++++++++++++

 

Bill usually has ahout 50 chapter and verse that he rewrites the meanings

for, why not this time? Could it be the free ticket video?

.

******************************

Invictus, do you believe in OSAS?

Originally Posted by semiannualchick:
Originally Posted by INVICTUS:

semi, you are right in the fact that Heb 6: 4-8 doesn't support OSAS.

Heb 6: 4-8

 [4] For it is impossible for those who were once illuminated, have tasted also the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, [5] Have moreover tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, [6] And are fallen away: to be renewed again to penance, crucifying again to themselves the Son of God, and making him a mockery. [7] For the earth that drinketh in the rain which cometh often upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is tilled, receiveth blessing from God. [8] But that which bringeth forth thorns and briers, is reprobate, and very near unto a curse, whose end is to be burnt.

 

[4] "It is impossible"... The meaning is, that it is impossible for such as have fallen after baptism, to be again baptized; and very hard for such as have apostatized from the faith, after having received many graces, to return again to the happy state from which they fell.

++++++++++++++++

 

Bill usually has ahout 50 chapter and verse that he rewrites the meanings

for, why not this time? Could it be the free ticket video?

.

******************************

Invictus, do you believe in OSAS?

----------------------------------------

Never have, never will, It goes against true Christian beliefs and goes

against all Bible belief. It isn't Bibilical.

 

.

Just a question, based from my on curiosity, without biasing it with my own personal beliefs or position on this Doctrine.

 

Forget for a moment the terminology (OSAS).  For those that do believe that a person can lose their Salvation, have the Holy Spirit abandon the person's body and their inner spirit, leaving them in a lost, unsaved state.   What is it that accomplishes this?   Or in another way exactly what is it that causes this to occur?

 


Can Satan or his demons be responsible for such?  If so what protection does the Christian have in order to protect themselves from Satan or his demons power?  Does 1 Tim 4:1 apply here?


Can a person sin so as to lose their salvation?  If so then what sins accomplishes this?  Is 1 Corinthians 5:1-5 an applicable verse to use in discussion of this point?


How many ways can a person lose their salvation according to your interpretation of Scripture?


Do you consider this the unpardonable sin / blaspheme of the Holy Spirit?


If a Christian can lose their salvation is it able to be regained (according to Scripture)?  If not it not a natural expectation that God would, from Scripture, explain clearly how the Christian could/would lose it?

 

These are some questions that some believers who believe in Eternal Security or that God's Salvation is not able to be lost.  

 

This is a reasonable point of discussion among Christians and a Doctrine that Christians on both sides of the issue consider backed up by Scriptures. 

 


For those that believe in Eternal Security or that you cannot lose your salvation how do you reconcile the following verse

Hebrews 6:4 (CEV)
{4} But what about people who turn away after they have already seen the light and have received the gift from heaven and have shared in the Holy Spirit? What about those who turn away after they have received the good message of God and the powers of the future world? There is no way to bring them back. What they are doing is the same as nailing the Son of God to a cross and insulting him in public!


 

Each advocate for each Doctrine personally should be able to know that reason for what they believe.  Additionally each should recognize that those who hold opposing views also fully believe that their position is supported and reinforced by Scripture. 

Originally Posted by gbrk:

Each advocate for each Doctrine personally should be able to know that reason for what they believe.  Additionally each should recognize that those who hold opposing views also fully believe that their position is supported and reinforced by Scripture. 

-------

 

Brilliant point, captain obvious.  Yes, you are all "cafeteria Christians."  You take what you like and throw out the rest.  Heck, Bill is probably the most glaring example of a Cafeteria Christian. 

The atheists are the only ones who have it right: We call BS on all of it.

Originally Posted by INVICTUS:
Originally Posted by Road Puppy:

Yeah, well MY made-up invisible ghostie can whip YOUR made-up invisible ghostie....

 

 

--------------------------------------------------------

Well bless your little deviated septum.

 

Casper is on my side, he can handle your ghostie.

 

.

 

Originally Posted by gbrk:

Just a question, based from my on curiosity, without biasing it with my own personal beliefs or position on this Doctrine.

 

Each advocate for each Doctrine personally should be able to know that reason for what they believe.  Additionally each should recognize that those who hold opposing views also fully believe that their position is supported and reinforced by Scripture. 

***********************************

Those questions & scriptures have

been debated for years, & will go

on being debated.

Parts of the Bible speaks of Eternal

Security, others, as in Hebrews,

speaks of losing your salvation.

The Bible seems to contradict itself,

don't it?

Originally Posted by Unobtanium:
Originally Posted by gbrk:

Each advocate for each Doctrine personally should be able to know that reason for what they believe.  Additionally each should recognize that those who hold opposing views also fully believe that their position is supported and reinforced by Scripture. 

-------

 

Brilliant point, captain obvious.  Yes, you are all "cafeteria Christians."  You take what you like and throw out the rest.  Heck, Bill is probably the most glaring example of a Cafeteria Christian. 

The atheists are the only ones who have it right: We call BS on all of it.

_____________

Using your analogy, Bill and his FRANs would go into the cafeteria, get some broccoli and when they came to the green beans would ask why they were serving broccoli again.  He would certainly refuse any unleavened bread products, and suspect the owners of being Catholic. Then he would take his fork, say it is a spoon, and try to eat soup with it. 

 

Bill would go on to study the menu to the point of knowing every item listed and every ingredient, and if he didn't understand any of the French titles like "soup du jour" he would have it transliterated until he understood it to be "beans and wieners".  Using various menu items he would then project when the cafeteria actually opened that day.  If he happened to see that tonight's special was a "bottomless bowl of salad", he would expect the bowel it was served in to be literally bottomless, and when he actually saw the bowel would proudly and assuredly claim that the bowel did indeed have no bottom.

 

As Bill and his FRANs pay on the way out, Bill would accuse the cashier of being a plain old vanilla cashier, **** her to hell, and wish her a blessed day.

Originally Posted by CrustyMac:
If he happened to see that tonight's special was a "bottomless bowl of salad", he would expect the bowel it was served in to be literally bottomless, and when he actually saw the bowel would proudly and assuredly claim that the bowel did indeed have no bottom.

--------

 

Har! 

I see a lot of people intimating that my eternal soul is in peril, but what I'm NOT finding is anybody actually explaining the discrepancy I mentioned.

 

Is there any official explanation that Christians have for this? Or, do they just write it off as one of the "patented replies" people use when they don't understand how someone can be told two (or three...) contradictory things and believe that both are literally true?

 

I'm honestly curious to hear from the devout how they resolve this conflict. It seems clear to me that the three accounts in the four Gospels cannot all be true, so I'd like to know what kind of thinking goes into accepting that the works are literal and infallible.

 

If anyone can enlighten me, I'd be pleased to listen.

 

n.b.

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