Good grief, Bill! What is it with you? Are you so set on your opinion being the only one to matter that you’re worried GB may look better & make more sense in our eyes than you do?  GB answered your questions, but you’re still not satisfied. What is it within you that you feel the need to belittle others with your constant questions as though they are wrong & you’re right?

 

I have a question for you, not that I expect an answer because that is something you just don’t do. Can you be comfortable knowing that you influenced  someone away from God rather than toward Him? Why would anyone want to be the hat wearing Christian that you are? Constant judgment, put downs, making fun of, no love/compassion…….is that what you truly believe God wants?

 

Proverbs 6:16-19 says “These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:  A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, A heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren".

 

Jesus said the first thing a Christian can do to be successful in getting along with each other is to guard our thoughts. Specifically, we need to be careful about making judgments of other people.

 

Matthew 7:1-2 says “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you”.

 

You miss the distinction between discernment & condemnation. You elevate fault finding to a ministry as if you are doing everyone here a favor.

I haven’t gotten the impression that GB is trying to impress anyone on this forum. He’s been straight & honest in how he feels & how he sees the Bible. He has one thing you don’t & that’s kindness, love & compassion for his fellow human being, saved or un-saved.

You could learn a lot from him if you would read his words with your heart & not your brain.

 

I can honestly say that his words have given me something to think about. You, Bill, are the one person on this forum that has hurt me, brought me to tears, & have made me want to run as far from God as my feet could carry me. Satan has used you against me but only because you have allowed him to do so.

 

I have no doubt that you have done the same to others here & some of those people that read but don’t post on this forum that you say you are trying to reach. I feel so very sorry for you.

 

 

 

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

The battle of the forum preacher wannabes.

***********************************

I'm very disappointed in you, Jenn, I thought we were friends. I'm not a wannabe preacher & have never tried to be. I give my opinion, & sometimes very blunt in that opinion, as are you. I will defend if I see someone attacked needlessly, as I have defended you in the past.

 

I'm confused about a lot of things, & have a lot of questions in my own mind. If the Bible is true, then I will hopefully find answers by asking questions & giving my opinion of it as if it were true.

 

I'm not one of those that can easily turn a blind eye to my raising in a Christian home. I wouldn't call asking questions & taking part in a discussion about religion as an indication that I wanted to be a preacher.

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

Talking about gb and bill. Why in the world would you think I meant you?

__________________________

Because your post was underneath my last post & you didn't indicate who it was meant for so I assumed it was meant for me too.

I'm sorry if I misunderstood.

No problem, I've posted that before after watching bill and gb post longgggggggggggg rambling verse filled posts. Bill should take his own advice and just "cut to the chase" so to speak. They could post the verse numbers but no, they have to copy and paste the entire verses.

Originally Posted by Unobtanium:

Best, of course they cannot explain the contridictions.  They've never studied them.  These aren't the kinds of things you learn in Sunday school.

I can almost guarantee you that none of them have ever heard of the "Q" gospel.  Most scholars agree that the gospels were hammed together from various sources who sort of, ummm, borrowed material from more ancient sources to come up with the fictional story of Jesus.That original author is called "Q," 

 

You should watch more Star Trek, Q has no interest in helping any of us.....

 

 

 

Originally Posted by I am the Fireman:

The Bible has no contridictions in it but only different peoples writing of what happened at a certain event.

Let's consider the terrible events that happened on 9/11. Several thousand people saw the planes as they crashed into the twin towers and I would just guess that if 10 of those thousand people sat down and wrote about what they saw their prospective would all be different. BUT, ultimately they would ALL say that TWO PLANES did indeed crash into the twin towers. Those areas in the Bible that you athiest call contridictions are merely different peoples accounts of what they say and ultimately they saw the same thing but only worded differently.  Grasping at straws aren't we?

I've always felt the same way.  As my grandpa used to say, sometimes you just have to 'faith' it.  

 

Salvation is a gift, there is nothing that a person can do to earn salvation but it is simply by the grace of God that we are saved. Once a person accepts the gift of salvation it is something that can never be taken from him(or her) but as with any gift it is something that can be thrown away or returned but that is a decision to be made by the individual.

While God would want us to do as many good works as we can, there is no amount of good works that can be done to save us,as I said above, it's a gift and the only condition is to accept Jesus and ask for salvation. You can reject Jesus and your salvation anytime you please but you don't have to worry it being taken from you.

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

A "gift"  offered with strings and conditions and horrible repercussions if you don't accept it. Was your god in the mob? Sure sounds like it, making you an offer you can't refuse.


I don't understand what the "strings and conditions" that you refer to could be?

quote:   Originally Posted by Jennifer Bestworking:

A "gift" offered with strings and conditions and horrible repercussions if you don't accept it.  Was your god in the mob?  Sure sounds like it, making you an offer you can't refuse.


Hi Jennifer,

 

Ephesians 2:8-9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."

 

As BFred asked, "Where are the 'strings and conditions' you mention?"

 

We see in this Scripture passage that salvation is a "free gift" from God.  We also see that no one can WORK for this gift.  Since we cannot WORK for the gift -- there obviously are no "strings and conditions" -- for those would constitute WORKs. 

 

Jennifer, might I suggest that you tried a taste of Christianity when you were younger -- but, because God did not dance to your tune -- you turned away before becoming a believer.   That is not unusual.  Many folks do that.

 

That is why both Billy Graham and Greg Laurie do not refer to those who come forward at a Crusade as converts.  They call them "inquirers."   Why?  Because, in coming forward out of emotion, or because a friend went forward -- or by attending church and Sunday school as a teenager -- does not mean that these folks are Christ Followers yet. 

 

It means that they are seeking, that they are "inquiring" -- that they have seen some of the Light -- but, have not yet made a full commitment to follow Jesus Christ.  So, many of these "inquirers" will turn back to following the world.

 

And, Jennifer, even if you had become involved in a weekly Bible study (which you have not indicated that you did) -- along with attending worship services and Sunday School as a teenager -- that does not mean that you had made the full commitment to follow Christ. 

 

You may believe that you did.  However, the fact that you are such a militant young atheist tells me that you did not.  And, being the militant young atheist tells me that you have a lot of resentment built up inside you toward God.  I have no idea why.  He did not leave you; you left Him -- before you crossed the bridge of salvation.  So, you cannot blame God.  He did not stop half way -- you did.

 

Jennifer, I realize that you will get angry over what I have written.  That, too, is part of being a militant young atheist -- you MUST always strike back.   Maybe, instead of striking back, instead of calling me names -- if you give serious thought to what I have suggested -- it could make a major difference in your life.  It surely is worth a try.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Jennifer, might I suggest that you tried a taste of Christianity when you were younger -- but, because God did not dance to your tune -- you turned away before becoming a believer. 

 

And, being the militant young atheist tells me that you have a lot of resentment built up inside you toward God.

 

Jennifer, I realize that you will get angry over what I have written.  That, too, is part of being a militant young atheist -- you MUST always strike back. 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------And bill, I don't "suggest" that as usual you don't know what you're talking about, I'm telling you that you don't.  I don't harbor resentment against things that don't exist such as your god. I've told you and others it's not your god, it's the insane and horrible things you do to others in the name of that god that I hate. I know you don't like hearing that truth but that is the way it is. The "anger" you feel is not for anything you write truthfully, if you ever do write truthfully, the anger is about the false information and rewritten history you want to feed to people. "See my post on the other thread called See you at the pole."

 When you start posting truthfully, stop making false claims and never correcting them, when you stop attacking people of other beliefs or non-beliefs, when you answer questions you're ask instead of disappearing or running to make another thread to divert the attention from you, when you stop using that ancient book of fables to attack people for their lifestyles, when you stop acting like an idiot, such as insinuating that people are g a y because they won't go along with your attacks on g a y s, when you stop claiming people want to "sin" or live a  "sinful" life because they don't "accept" your god, when you stop claiming that people never believed in the first place, in other words bill, if you weren't a miserable judgemental sob, then maybe we could talk.

Fred, just what I said. Either accept the gift, use it only as your god says, or suffer horrible repercussions. Come to my house fred, let me offer you a gift that you are "free" to turn down. Take it, use it only as I say you can, and you'll be a happy little camper for the rest of your life. Turn it down, or use it as you see fit, after all it was a gift, and I will beat you with a baseball bat. Some "gift" eh?

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

Fred, just what I said. Either accept the gift, use it only as your god says, or suffer horrible repercussions. Come to my house fred, let me offer you a gift that you are "free" to turn down. Take it, use it only as I say you can, and you'll be a happy little camper for the rest of your life. Turn it down, or use it as you see fit, after all it was a gift, and I will beat you with a baseball bat. Some "gift" eh?

God would not beat us with a baseball bat for not accepting the gifts he offers, declining the salvation he offers just means that you would not be able to come to his "house" (Heaven) after this life.

I do not understand the "use it as he says" part. If you are making reference to having to accept Jesus and ask to receive the gift then that is true, outside of that I don't think there are any other conditions. Although God does spell out the basics of how he wants us to live our lives, he does not expect us to live up to everything he wants us to do or not do, the gift is completely out of grace, not by how much we excell or fail at following his will.

 

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

The "use it as he says" is obvious. Use it worship him. True, he wouldn't beat you with a bat, he'd have way more horrible and gruesome ways to deal with you.


If the strings are just to worship him then what's the big problem with that? I mean he is God, he made all of us including you and your family, he created heaven & earth, and every other naturally occuring thing. With all that considered then I don't think worshiping him would be too much to ask or to at least just show some respect and gratitude for all he has done for us. If by horrible and gruesome you mean hell, it is not God that sends anyone to hell. God has the gates to heaven wide open with an invitation to anyone who wants it but he's not going to force you to come and he's not going to force you to worship him, I can assure you that if any human in hell could be inteviewed that none would be able to truthfully say that it was God who took them there.

Nope, Once saved always saved is contrary to the Gospel- it makes the people who believe it believe they are protected from sin, but, we all have free will. So the "saved" is free to sin just as much as the next guy. 

This is an age-old debate- I highly doubt that you will convince anyone to "switch camps". I am a Christian, solid in my beliefs. However I cannot tell you that tomorrow I may not sin gravely, and fall out of a state of grace. 

It might happen. Probably not, because I have a 12 hour shift, lol, but you never know. 

In my opinion, OSAS is just another "feel good" theology that lets people think they are better than others. 

Being Catholic, I can't tell you how many people have said "oooh,  you're Catholic- are you saved?" 
To which my reply is, and always will be this:
"I have been saved, I am being saved, and, God willing, will be saved when I depart this life". 



hey, If it makes you feel better to believe that you can't fall from Christ's friendship, good on ya. But we all know that even His disciples betrayed Him. Something tells me that todays churches probably can't be more convincing than Jesus Himself...

But think twice before declaring to the world that "OSAS" is true- you just might lead someone into a false sense of security. 

In my opinion, it is clearly smarter to err on the side of caution. Salvation and a relationship with God is something that has to be cultivated and nurtured: It's not just a "poof" one time deal. 

Food for thought-

Cheers, V

 

Welcome Back Vee,  glad to know you are alright and doing fine.  Naturally you realize there are believers all over the spectrum with respect to salvation and losing or retaining it, as you alluded to, with beliefs about salvation and Eternal Security.  No trap or trick question, intended here, but as someone who does believe differently I am curious, from your perspective or the perspective of your Church;


At what point does one lose their salvation?   In other words how does one know they reach that point?  Up to what point can one sin and still retain salvation and at what point or line does one cross where you lose your salvation?

 

I have to admit I'm not that familiar with the Catholic Church's position on that doctrine however I do think I remember at least two distinctions of sin from my High School days and those being Mortal and Venial Sins.  Anyway I hope that's not too long of a request I'm just trying to better understand different people's/Churches doctrinal teachings regarding Salvation.   I also realize I could look it up on the web, and may cheat and do just that before you answer, but thought you might could put it more concisely.

 

If you would rather not get too deeply involved in it or want to ease your way back into the forum I'll understand if you prefer to delay answering but thanks either way.

Originally Posted by vplee123:

PS Fred, I agree with you that Salvation is a "gift"- what I do not agree with is that it is a "one time deal". 

Just clarifying.... 

------------------------------------

OSAS has been done many times and Billie knows it's not Biblical.

What Bible verses support it?

 

.

GBRK, 

I believe that our salvation is not "complete" until we leave this earth. Every second, every action before that time counts. 

I believe that we can turn away from God. We could say our Salvation prayer, or whatever it is called (with all due respect, please- i just don't know it" and accept Jesus as our Saviour. But then we could, years down the road, reject Him. We could fall from grace- in sin, in our hearts, in our compassion, etc.

My best example is this; Like He says "Depart from me, I never knew you", to people who had been sharing His Word, and devoted their lives to Him. 

I consider that above quote to be evidence that God does in fact refuse salvation to a presumed Christian. 

Hope that answers your question.  

Originally Posted by vplee123:

PS Fred, I agree with you that Salvation is a "gift"- what I do not agree with is that it is a "one time deal". 

Just clarifying.... 

From reading past posts (debates between You & Bill), our opinions on the subject are a little different but I don't believe OSAS either. I do not believe that God would ever take away our gift of salvation but I do believe that we can still reject God and our salvation.

Although I do not think of being saved as a license to sin, I also believe that with each passing sin (major or minor (if there is such a thing)) that dying between the batch of sins and confessing the sins will not get me denied at Heaven's Gate.

Bill Gray's fatally-flawed theology:

 

Bill says, above: 

 

"We see in this Scripture passage that salvation is a "free gift" from God.  We also see that no one can WORK for this gift.  Since we cannot WORK for the gift -- there obviously are no "strings and conditions" -- for those would constitute WORKs."

 

Yet Bill believes that a person must "take Jesus as his Savior" in order to be saved.  This means that a person who does not "take Jesus as his Savior" will be lost. It is therefore axiomatic and indis****ble that "take(ing] Jesus as one's personal savior" is a condition of salvation, in Bill's theology.  Thus, according to Bill's "logic," "take[ing] Jesus as one's personal Savior," being a condition of salvation, is a "WORK."

 

Bill confuses meritorious works of man with the salvific work of God.  Baptism, according to Bill, is a "work" and is thus not essential to the remission of sins and salvation.  The error of that interpretation is that baptism is NOT a meritorious work of man, earning salvation; it is a work of God, in that it is the place and event He appoints where the lost sinner comes into contact with the redeeming death and blood of Jesus Christ.  That concept is clearly and powerfully taught in Romans 6:1-11.

 

The first sinners to whom the gospel was preached, in Acts chapter 2, clearly understood that they were lost, the apostle Peter having powerfully indicted them for the death of Jesus Christ.   In anguish of spirit, they asked, "Man and brethren, what shall we do?"  Did that inspired apostle tell them to "take Jesus as your Savior" or to "say the sinner's prayer"?  No way.  He told them to "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of sins." Why will not Bill and the host of evangelical preachers and teachers with whom he identifies, tell lost sinners the same thing that Peter told those lost sinners long ago?

 

Note also that these sinners were told to "REPENT." Had they not repented, would they have been saved? Clearly not.  Thus, repentance constitutes another condition.

 

No, Bill, salvation is not unconditional in the manner in which you erroneously construe it.  There clearly are conditions, as I have clearly shown above, and these conditions are not meritorious works earning salvation, but they are essential!

 

We are indeed saved by the grace of God, but that grace is not unconditional; otherwise no one would be required to do anything in order to be saved.  That concept is called "universalism," Bill. Surely you do not wish to throw in with that notion!

 

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