Hi to my Forum Friends,

For over five years, I have been doing apologetic writing on the Religion Forum of our home town newspaper, the TimesDaily.  I initially joined this forum because it was inundated and basically controlled by a handful of atheists, in alliance with a small number of other non-believers.

My purpose in joining the Religion Forum was two fold:  First, to refute their non-Christian teachings.  And, second, to make sure that readers (currently 11,000 plus loosely registered members -- and an untold number of folks who only come to the forum to read) get to read the truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and the Word of God.

On the TimesDaily Forums, there are ten forums of differing interests.  So, I will have to extrapolate to say that, on the Religion Forum, this being Alabama (belt buckle of the Bible Belt), we must get our share of readers.

One of the hot-button issues which immediately draws the ire and stones from my non-believing Forum Friends -- is my contention that salvation is by the grace of God, through faith in Jesus Christ -- plus nothing else.

Another "ire and stone attraction" is my belief that once a person has sincerely invited Jesus Christ into his/her heart, i.e., has become a true Christian believer -- that person has the personal promise of Jesus Christ that he/she HAS eternal life in Christ.  In other words, the sincerely confessed believer HAS eternal security in Jesus Christ -- and will never lose that salvation.   On most platforms this is loosely referred to as "once saved, always saved" -- or, on the Religion Forum, OSAS.

My non-believing Friends on the Religion Forum continue to challenge me to prove these beliefs.  And, when I do offer Biblical foundation for my beliefs -- they refuse to hear it, they deny it, and they keep asking me, "Bill, you are always preaching OSAS.   Prove it!"

Wee, gee whiz, fellows and gals -- I have shown you practically every Scripture verse in the Bible -- supported by commentary writings from many very knowledgeable pastors, theologians, and Bible scholars.  Yet, you still demand, "Prove it!"

Of course, we all know that, "There is no so blind -- as he who will not see!"

Today, on the Hope Bible Institute Facebook page (a ministry of the Church of Hope, Laguna Woods, California, pastored by my long time Friend, Pastor Freddy Cortez) -- I viewed an amazing video about Free Grace Theology and what this means.

The video is from the Free Grace Alliance and the speaker is Dr. Charlie Bing -- one of the best speakers I have heard in a long time.  Dr. Bing, Founder, Director, and past President of Free Grace Alliance, earned his Th.M. and Ph.D. from Dallas Theological Seminary.  He pastored Burleson Bible Church in Texas for 19 years before transitioning to GraceLife full-time in 2005.  He has served as Adjunct Professor of Biblical Studies for LeTourneau University since 1992.  He is active as a speaker for churches and  conferences in the United States and abroad and has published a number of books and articles on the gospel, salvation, evangelism, and discipleship

In this video, Dr. Bing gives one of the best explanations of Free Grace and Salvation Through Faith Alone, plus giving Biblical support for Eternal Assurance in Jesus Christ, that I have heard.   Immediately, I realized that I want to share this video, this eternally important message -- with all my Friends.  The video is about 48 minutes long; so, get a cup of coffee, kick back, and grow in your faith and assurance of eternal life in Christ.

 

Intro to Free Grace:  Dr. Charlie Bing
From Free Grace Alliance
http://vimeo.com/2919716


And, visiting Dr. Bing's ministry web site, GraceLife Ministries http://www.gracelife.org/aboutus.asp I find that his Statement of Faith aligns perfectly with my own Statement of Beliefs and, what I have been writing for the past twenty years -- what I have presented during the past twelve years in my Friends Ministry enewsletters -- what I shared on The Conservative Voice for three years -- and the message I have shared for over five years on the TimesDaily Religion forum.

GraceLife Statement of Faith:


We believe that there is one God eternally existing in three persons:  The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

We believe that the Bible is God's authoritative written revelation to man.  We believe in the verbal plenary inspiration  of the Scriptures and that they are without error in the original manuscripts.  Scripture should be interpreted according to its historical, grammatical, and normal sense.

We believe in the deity of Jesus Christ, that he also took on humanity at His virgin birth, lived a sinless life, performed miracles, died on the cross to provide for the redemption of all people, bodily rose from the grave, ascended into heaven, and presently is making intercession for us.

We believe in the personality and deity of the Holy Spirit, that He performs the miracle of new birth in an unbeliever and indwells believers enabling them to live a godly life.

We believe that man was created in the image of God, but because of sin was alienated from God.

We believe in the Gospel of Grace, that by simply and only believing in Jesus Christ alone for the eternal salvation made possible by His death and resurrection that our alienation can be removed and eternal life received.

We believe that once saved, the believer can never lose that salvation, and that it is therefore the privilege of everyone who believes to have assurance of salvation, which is not based on works but on the promises of God's Word.

We believe that we are not only saved from the penalty of sin by grace through faith, but we believe that we are also empowered by the Holy Spirit for daily living and victory over sin by grace through faith.

We believe in the Premillennial Return of Jesus Christ to earth in power and glory when He will establish the kingdom.

We believe in the Imminent Pretribulational Rapture of the church.  We believe that following the rapture of the church, all believers will stand before the judgment seat of Christ where believers will appear to give an account for how their lives were lived as believers.  We believe that faithfulness will be rewarded by Christ Himself and that special privileges in the millennial kingdom and eternity will be given to those believers who have lived their lives faithfully while loss of reward will be accorded to those who have not.

We believe those who reject Christ's offer of salvation will suffer eternal punishment in the Lake of Fire with the devil and his angels.


Do yourself a favor and view this complete video.   As I said, get a cup of coffee, you may want to also have your Bible handy, sit back, relax, and truly listen to the message presented by Dr. Charlie Bing.  His message is powerful.

Why should you take my word for this -- what are my credentials?  I am only a born-again believer who opened the door of my heart to allow Jesus Christ to enter in 1987.  Shortly after that, I began to do Christian writing -- in my own snail-mail newsletter "The Good News" -- writing tracts and church bulletin inserts -- and sharing wherever God presented the opportunity. 

 

Twelve years ago, I began to study and write full time, sharing messages of Christian encouragement and being pulled more and more into apologetic writings.   At the time, I did not consider myself an apologetic writer; only that I was responding to comments and questions sent to me by Friends.

My Friend, Pastor Ed Dacio, told me one day, "Brother Bill, you are an apologetic writer."   Hmmm, I had never given any thought to a label of any sort -- just that when a Friend had a comment or question which needed an answer -- God had made it possible for me to have the time and resources to probe, research, study, contemplate, and seek an appropriate response.

Have I ever been wrong?  You betcha!  But, when I have found that my response was, in any way, erroneous or misleading -- I have sought to find the correct answer and submit that to my Friends.

I will say this.  There have been times when I have been wrong in my interpretation of Biblical passages -- and, I pray that when this has happened, I have been, or am, able to correct that and move on.  However, I do not believe I am wrong in my Doctrinal Beliefs, or my Statement of Beliefs -- which, as I said earlier, align very well with those shown above.

So, I pray that you will get as much from Dr. Bing's video message as I did -- and, that you have a better understanding of why I feel called to share such resources, along with my writings, to all my Friends.

If you find this useful, please feel free to share it with your Friends, Relatives, Associates, and Neighbors -- all your FRANs.  Let's  keep sharing God's Word and the Gospel of Jesus Christ with the world -- until He returns.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Friends_Piggy_Bear_TEXT

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The following can indicate a delusion:

 

The patient expresses an idea or belief with unusual persistence or force. Check!

 

That idea appears to exert an undue influence on the patient's life, and the way of life is often altered to an inexplicable extent. Yep!

 

The individual tends to be humorless and oversensitive, especially about the belief. Hmm...

 

An attempt to contradict the belief is likely to arouse an inappropriately strong emotional reaction, often with irritability and hostility. Ditto!

 

The patient is emotionally over-invested in the idea and it overwhelms other elements of their psyche. True!

 

The individual experiences a heightened sense of self-reference. Events which, to others, are nonsignificant are of enormous significance to him or her, and the atmosphere surrounding the delusions is highly charged. BINGO!

 

 

Bill you referred to those of us that don't believe in your OSAS theory as non-believers.

If you consider these as "power words" they are also lying words and you have mis-represented us to your readers. We are believers not non as you have branded us. At this point you are in sin and without repenting, asking us forgiveness and Gods forgiveness you will be lost. Do you not agree? Do not lump us believers in with fish and deep.

 Matthew 13:22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful.  

1Corinthians 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.  

1 Tim. 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;  

Heb. 2: 1 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.  

Heb. 3: 12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.  

Heb. 4: 1  Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.  

Heb. 4: 11 Let us labor therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.   

Heb. 12: 15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;  

2 Peter 3: 17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own steadfastness.

Originally Posted by ReleaseTheElephant:

 

The following can indicate a delusion:

 

The patient expresses an idea or belief with unusual persistence or force. Check!

 

That idea appears to exert an undue influence on the patient's life, and the way of life is often altered to an inexplicable extent. Yep!

 

The individual tends to be humorless and oversensitive, especially about the belief. Hmm...

 

An attempt to contradict the belief is likely to arouse an inappropriately strong emotional reaction, often with irritability and hostility. Ditto!

 

The patient is emotionally over-invested in the idea and it overwhelms other elements of their psyche. True!

 

The individual experiences a heightened sense of self-reference. Events which, to others, are nonsignificant are of enormous significance to him or her, and the atmosphere surrounding the delusions is highly charged. BINGO!

 

___________________________________________________________________________
Sounds EXACTLY like some atheists I know! 

 

The doctrine of Once Saved always Saved very often causes controversy among fellow Christian believers for it is very tender and fiercely debated topic and each side or each sides advocates have very strong scriptural references to support their contention or position.  This, at times, fierce contention among Christians, played out in front of non-Christians, often leads more to, what appears to be folly, rather than constructive dialog.

 

I know I have personally wavered throughout my Christian life and in studies as to what I accepted as doctrine and what I believed that Scriptures reinforced and taught.  Often times I find that even those who argue and debate the issue actually believe much the same thing but differ only in one narrow area.  By this I mean the thought of losing one's salvation.   Most Christians do not believe that Satan or another person can rob a true Christian of their Salvation or that a person's salvation can be taken from outside.  

 

The real point of contention therefore, as I have observed it, is whether the Christian themselves can reach a point that they make a determined decision to renounce Christ and their decision.  That is usually the primary point of contention.  Those who advocate that a person can renounce their Salvation and leave God or reject God ,once they have met and been saved,  will then cite the act itself, or rejecting God, as blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, given that it is the Holy Spirit that God uses to communicate with humankind.  These are not the only differences in this discussion and doctrinal differences and beliefs how a person can lose salvation, if possible, but I believe they are the main ones in most cases.

 

For those who advocate OSAS doctrine the choice of those words often portray, to other Christians, that we believe in an insurance policy that permits the Christian to sin and continue to sin as they wish without regard for the Holy Spirit or Christ Sacrifice on the Cross or God's Will.

 

I personally believe this is a valid doctrine to discuss and debate among Christian believers but not to the point that the Cause of Christ is harmed or damaged.  I do not believe this is a profitable discussion to have with persons that are admittingly not Christians or non-believers but that is just my personal opinion.  I personally, therefore, believe that this discussion, on this particular topic, is most wisely handled and addressed in Personal Dialogs among fellow professing Christians that desire to participate in such a discussion.  Just my personal opinion but regardless suggest for the sake of Christian unity that we keep it respectful, presenting our respective positions and allowing God's Holy Spirit to minister to the hearts and minds and confirm God's truth regarding this doctrine.  

Here is what I read:  "Blah, blah, blah, blah, I'm right, everyone else is wrong, or they just don't believe, blah, blah, blah."   All done in a horrendous mixture of quotation marks, bold type, underlined type, and italicized type with a silly picture tacked on at the end.  That he only used two different colors is an unusual show of restraint.

HI OK,

You tell me, "Bill, you referred to those of us that don't believe in your OSAS theory as non-believers.  If you consider these as  "power words" they are also lying words and you have mis-represented us to your readers.  We are believers, not non-believers, as you have branded us."

Well, yes and no.  If you will read my introduction, you will see that I write:

 

I initially joined this forum because it was inundated and  basically controlled by a handful of atheists, in alliance with a small number of other non-believers.  My purpose in joining the Religion Forum was two fold:  First, to refute their non-Christian teachings.

One of the hot-button issues which immediately draws the ire and stones from my non-believing Forum  Friends -- is my contention that salvation is by the grace of God, through faith in Jesus Christ -- plus nothing else.

 

Another "ire and stone attraction" is my belief that once a person has sincerely invited Jesus Christ into his/her heart, i.e., has become a true Christian believer -- that person has the personal promise of Jesus Christ that he/she HAS eternal life in Christ.

 

So, my whole focus is on addressing those folk -- those atheists and other non-believers who jump on these issues when I mention  them.  That was my focus.  And, although there are Christian believers who also disagree with me -- my mental focus was not on  them -- but, instead, it was on the atheist and other non-believers.

However, you are right that my post could be taken to imply anyone who disagrees with me on "once saved, always saved."  And, with that line of thought in mind; then that would have been a misstatement!  Therefore, to anyone in our Christian camp who thought I was addressing you; please believe that was not my intent.  If any of my Christian Friends were offended, please accept my  apologies.

I realize that many of my Liberal Theology Friends and also those who are in a more legalistic belief system, such as yourself, OK --  do not believe in "once saved, always saved" or in the teaching of "eternal security."   That does not, in any way, mean that I believe these Friends are not Christian, nor that they are not saved.  One is not saved by their theological beliefs -- but, only by grace, through faith in Jesus Christ.  So, I do offer my apologies for that misunderstanding or misstatement.

Now, you know why I wrote in my initial post:


Have I ever been wrong?  You betcha!  But, when I have found that my response was, in any way, erroneous or misleading -- I have sought to find the correct answer and submit that to my Friends.

I will say this.  There have been times when I have been wrong in my interpretation of Biblical passages -- and, I pray that when this has happened, I have been, or am, able to correct that and move on.


So, I pray we can move past this boo-boo and keep walking as Christian brothers.

Then, you tell me, "At this point you are in sin and without repenting, asking us forgiveness, and Gods forgiveness -- you will be lost.  Do you not agree?  Do not lump us believers in with fish and deep."

No, I would never lump believers with Deep, Fish, or any of our atheist and non-believing Friends.  While some of we believers have traded blows in the past -- the only really nasty and offensive attacks toward me have come from the non-believing side.

Yes, I made an error in what I wrote, or how I wrote it -- but, was that a sin?  Possibly a sin of omission or oversight; but, not a deliberate sin of disobedience toward God, nor was it meant as an attack against you or any Christian believer.  It was, as I said, a misstatement -- an erroneous statement.

But, when you ask, "At this point you are in sin and without repenting, asking us forgiveness, and Gods forgiveness -- you will be lost.  Do you not agree?"

No, I totally disagree.  And, if you would have watched the video before responding you would have understood why I say that I disagree.   Once a person has been declared "righteous" by Jesus Christ; once a person has been declared "saved" by Jesus Christ  -- His blood on the cross has paid our sin debt -- "in full."

That includes all past sins, all current sins, and all future sins.  When His righteousness is imputed, attributed, to us -- from that point in time and forever -- when God looks at us, He sees only the righteousness of Jesus Christ.  Jesus Christ is our "righteousness umbrella."


Romans 3:22,  "Even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; . . ."

Romans 4:4-5, "Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.  But to the one who does not  work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness."

Romans 8:10, "If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness."


Can we ever have righteousness based upon us, our works, or anything else that we do?  No.  We are told in Isaiah 64:6, "For all of  us have become like one who is unclean, And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment. . ."  So, anything we do, in our right, to please God, i.e., works, etc. -- He sees as filthy garments.  In our own righteousness, we can NEVER be saved; for God cannot  look upon our unrighteousness.

However, when Jesus Christ hangs His umbrella of righteousness over us -- all God sees is His righteousness when He looks at us.   When we believe and receive Jesus Christ as our personal Lord and Savior, we become children of God (John 1:12) -- He adopts us into His Family.  Once in His family, no one can snatch us out of His hands (John 10:28-29).  From the moment we become children of God, we are sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of our redemption (Ephesians 1:13, 4:30).  The day of our redemption is the day we die or are raptured.

So, Ok, when you ask, "At this point you are in sin and without repenting, asking us forgiveness, and Gods forgiveness -- you will be lost.  Do you not agree?"

First, I have not sinned.  I made a statement which could have been, and obviously was, misunderstood.  But, I still do apologize and ask your forgiveness for not being more clear in what I wrote.

However, when you say that a sin, any sin, can cause me, or anyone, to lose our salvation -- that is absolutely wrong.  As we can see above, from the moment of our salvation -- we are indwelled and sealed for God by the Holy Spirit; no one can snatch us out of His hands because we are children of God -- and, we will stay adopted into His family until the day of our redemption.

But, does that give us a license to sin?  Absolutely not!  Every believer will have to stand before Jesus Christ at the Believer's Judgment, Bema Seat Judgment (2 Corinthians 5:10, 1 Corinthians 3:11-15, 1 Peter 5:4) -- and account for everything we said or did in this life.  For all our sins, we will have to answer for that sin directly to our Lord Jesus Christ.  If we, by word or deed, hurt another  -- we will have to answer for that directly to our Lord Jesus Christ.

There is no "free ride."  And, I can imagine that it will be very, very uncomfortable standing before our perfect Lord -- explaining all the petty, nasty, and sometimes viscous things we do to others in this life.   No "free ride."   No "get out of jail free" card.

Only a very flawed, but forgiven, sinner explaining every single sin to our Lord -- while He looks us in the eye.

 

Let me close by strongly suggesting that you watch this video by Dr. Charlie Bing.  I had heard of him before; but, this is the first time I have seen his work.  I am very impressed -- with his theology, with his demeanor, with his teaching skills, and with his message.  In my opinion, he was right on the mark.   

Even if you do not believe in "once saved, always saved" -- do yourself a favor and watch his video anyway.  Either you will become a  believer in "eternal security" -- or you will learn good arguing points to support your own belief system.  Either way, it is time well spent.


God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Bill, the book of Hebrews completely destroys your OSAS foundation, causing it to crumble.

I’ve often heard it said that the doctrine taught in Hebrews is only for the Jews. That’s bull crap. Christians have no problem accepting the blessings given in the book, (intercessory prayers of Christ, supernatural faith, divine provision, access to the throne of grace, etc.). If one aspect of Hebrews is to be applied to Christians, then so should the "whole counsel" of the book.

 

Some scriptures that comes to mind is Hebrews 6:4-8 (KJV)

(4) For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

(5) And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

(6) If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

(7) For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:

(8) But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

 

It is apparent that this is speaking of a BELIEVER!!! Notice it says "once enlightened", "tasted of the heavenly gift" "were made partakers of the Holy Ghost". You cannot partake of the Holy Ghost by merely attending church, taking communion, being baptized, etc.. You are only a partaker of Him, when He is in you! He has "tasted" the word of God, and enjoyed the "powers of the world to come".

It would be impossible for an unbeliever to be given this privilege by God! Do you know of any unbeliever/sinners who have enjoyed the powers of the world to come?

 

Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Hi to my Forum Friends,

For over five years, I have been doing apologetic writing on the Religion Forum of our home town newspaper, the TimesDaily.  I initially joined this forum because it was inundated and basically controlled by a handful of atheists, in alliance with a small number of other non-believers.

My purpose in joining the Religion Forum was two fold:  First, to refute their non-Christian teachings.  And, second, to make sure that readers (currently 11,000 plus loosely registered members -- and an untold number of folks who only come to the forum to read) get to read the truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and the Word of God.

On the TimesDaily Forums, there are ten forums of differing interests.  So, I will have to extrapolate to say that, on the Religion Forum, this being Alabama (belt buckle of the Bible Belt), we must get our share of readers.

One of the hot-button issues which immediately draws the ire and stones from my non-believing Forum Friends -- is my contention that salvation is by the grace of God, through faith in Jesus Christ -- plus nothing else.

Another "ire and stone attraction" is my belief that once a person has sincerely invited Jesus Christ into his/her heart, i.e., has become a true Christian believer -- that person has the personal promise of Jesus Christ that he/she HAS eternal life in Christ.  In other words, the sincerely confessed believer HAS eternal security in Jesus Christ -- and will never lose that salvation.   On most platforms this is loosely referred to as "once saved, always saved" -- or, on the Religion Forum, OSAS.

My non-believing Friends on the Religion Forum continue to challenge me to prove these beliefs.  And, when I do offer Biblical foundation for my beliefs -- they refuse to hear it, they deny it, and they keep asking me, "Bill, you are always preaching OSAS.   Prove it!"

Wee, gee whiz, fellows and gals -- I have shown you practically every Scripture verse in the Bible -- supported by commentary writings from many very knowledgeable pastors, theologians, and Bible scholars.  Yet, you still demand, "Prove it!"

Of course, we all know that, "There is no so blind -- as he who will not see!"

Today, on the Hope Bible Institute Facebook page (a ministry of the Church of Hope, Laguna Woods, California, pastored by my long time Friend, Pastor Freddy Cortez) -- I viewed an amazing video about Free Grace Theology and what this means.

The video is from the Free Grace Alliance and the speaker is Dr. Charlie Bing -- one of the best speakers I have heard in a long time.  Dr. Bing, Founder, Director, and past President of Free Grace Alliance, earned his Th.M. and Ph.D. from Dallas Theological Seminary.  He pastored Burleson Bible Church in Texas for 19 years before transitioning to GraceLife full-time in 2005.  He has served as Adjunct Professor of Biblical Studies for LeTourneau University since 1992.  He is active as a speaker for churches and  conferences in the United States and abroad and has published a number of books and articles on the gospel, salvation, evangelism, and discipleship

In this video, Dr. Bing gives one of the best explanations of Free Grace and Salvation Through Faith Alone, plus giving Biblical support for Eternal Assurance in Jesus Christ, that I have heard.   Immediately, I realized that I want to share this video, this eternally important message -- with all my Friends.  The video is about 48 minutes long; so, get a cup of coffee, kick back, and grow in your faith and assurance of eternal life in Christ.

 

Intro to Free Grace:  Dr. Charlie Bing
From Free Grace Alliance
http://vimeo.com/2919716


And, visiting Dr. Bing's ministry web site, GraceLife Ministries http://www.gracelife.org/aboutus.asp I find that his Statement of Faith aligns perfectly with my own Statement of Beliefs and, what I have been writing for the past twenty years -- what I have presented during the past twelve years in my Friends Ministry enewsletters -- what I shared on The Conservative Voice for three years -- and the message I have shared for over five years on the TimesDaily Religion forum.

GraceLife Statement of Faith:


We believe that there is one God eternally existing in three persons:  The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

We believe that the Bible is God's authoritative written revelation to man.  We believe in the verbal plenary inspiration  of the Scriptures and that they are without error in the original manuscripts.  Scripture should be interpreted according to its historical, grammatical, and normal sense.

We believe in the deity of Jesus Christ, that he also took on humanity at His virgin birth, lived a sinless life, performed miracles, died on the cross to provide for the redemption of all people, bodily rose from the grave, ascended into heaven, and presently is making intercession for us.

We believe in the personality and deity of the Holy Spirit, that He performs the miracle of new birth in an unbeliever and indwells believers enabling them to live a godly life.

We believe that man was created in the image of God, but because of sin was alienated from God.

We believe in the Gospel of Grace, that by simply and only believing in Jesus Christ alone for the eternal salvation made possible by His death and resurrection that our alienation can be removed and eternal life received.

We believe that once saved, the believer can never lose that salvation, and that it is therefore the privilege of everyone who believes to have assurance of salvation, which is not based on works but on the promises of God's Word.

We believe that we are not only saved from the penalty of sin by grace through faith, but we believe that we are also empowered by the Holy Spirit for daily living and victory over sin by grace through faith.

We believe in the Premillennial Return of Jesus Christ to earth in power and glory when He will establish the kingdom.

We believe in the Imminent Pretribulational Rapture of the church.  We believe that following the rapture of the church, all believers will stand before the judgment seat of Christ where believers will appear to give an account for how their lives were lived as believers.  We believe that faithfulness will be rewarded by Christ Himself and that special privileges in the millennial kingdom and eternity will be given to those believers who have lived their lives faithfully while loss of reward will be accorded to those who have not.

We believe those who reject Christ's offer of salvation will suffer eternal punishment in the Lake of Fire with the devil and his angels.


Do yourself a favor and view this complete video.   As I said, get a cup of coffee, you may want to also have your Bible handy, sit back, relax, and truly listen to the message presented by Dr. Charlie Bing.  His message is powerful.

Why should you take my word for this -- what are my credentials?  I am only a born-again believer who opened the door of my heart to allow Jesus Christ to enter in 1987.  Shortly after that, I began to do Christian writing -- in my own snail-mail newsletter "The Good News" -- writing tracts and church bulletin inserts -- and sharing wherever God presented the opportunity. 

 

Twelve years ago, I began to study and write full time, sharing messages of Christian encouragement and being pulled more and more into apologetic writings.   At the time, I did not consider myself an apologetic writer; only that I was responding to comments and questions sent to me by Friends.

My Friend, Pastor Ed Dacio, told me one day, "Brother Bill, you are an apologetic writer."   Hmmm, I had never given any thought to a label of any sort -- just that when a Friend had a comment or question which needed an answer -- God had made it possible for me to have the time and resources to probe, research, study, contemplate, and seek an appropriate response.

Have I ever been wrong?  You betcha!  But, when I have found that my response was, in any way, erroneous or misleading -- I have sought to find the correct answer and submit that to my Friends.

I will say this.  There have been times when I have been wrong in my interpretation of Biblical passages -- and, I pray that when this has happened, I have been, or am, able to correct that and move on.  However, I do not believe I am wrong in my Doctrinal Beliefs, or my Statement of Beliefs -- which, as I said earlier, align very well with those shown above.

So, I pray that you will get as much from Dr. Bing's video message as I did -- and, that you have a better understanding of why I feel called to share such resources, along with my writings, to all my Friends.

If you find this useful, please feel free to share it with your Friends, Relatives, Associates, and Neighbors -- all your FRANs.  Let's  keep sharing God's Word and the Gospel of Jesus Christ with the world -- until He returns.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Friends_Piggy_Bear_TEXT


Who cares?

Originally Posted by O No!:
Originally Posted by ReleaseTheElephant:

 

The following can indicate a delusion:

 

The patient expresses an idea or belief with unusual persistence or force. Check!

 

That idea appears to exert an undue influence on the patient's life, and the way of life is often altered to an inexplicable extent. Yep!

 

The individual tends to be humorless and oversensitive, especially about the belief. Hmm...

 

An attempt to contradict the belief is likely to arouse an inappropriately strong emotional reaction, often with irritability and hostility. Ditto!

 

The patient is emotionally over-invested in the idea and it overwhelms other elements of their psyche. True!

 

The individual experiences a heightened sense of self-reference. Events which, to others, are nonsignificant are of enormous significance to him or her, and the atmosphere surrounding the delusions is highly charged. BINGO!

 

___________________________________________________________________________
Sounds EXACTLY like some atheists I know! 

 

Sounds EXACTLY like some bible thumpers I know.

Bill, I've asked some people this question and never really got anything that approximated an answer. Why do some churches need a "declaration of faith" or something similar? Isn't the Bible enough? Is there much difference in adding a "declaration of faith" and adding another testament, ala Mormons?

Semi:  Bill accuses everyone of not accepting his "facts" when he has repeatedly shown them.  Of course we all know that Bill is a hypocrite, so why would you expect him to accept any passages that contradict his way of thinking even when you have shown him over and over?

Originally Posted by CrustyMac:

Semi:  Bill accuses everyone of not accepting his "facts" when he has repeatedly shown them.  Of course we all know that Bill is a hypocrite, so why would you expect him to accept any passages that contradict his way of thinking even when you have shown him over and over?

*********************************

Yep, sorta stupid of me to keep it up when he refuses to answer anything that contradicts what he preaches.

Even though he is a hypocrite of the highest order, I still feel sorta sorry for him. He's going to get a rude awakening one day.

How long do you think it will take him to declare this topic a spitting contest & start another one?

 

Originally Posted by semiannualchick:

Bill, the book of Hebrews completely destroys your OSAS foundation, causing it to crumble.

I’ve often heard it said that the doctrine taught in Hebrews is only for the Jews. That’s bull crap. Christians have no problem accepting the blessings given in the book, (intercessory prayers of Christ, supernatural faith, divine provision, access to the throne of grace, etc.). If one aspect of Hebrews is to be applied to Christians, then so should the "whole counsel" of the book.

 

Some scriptures that comes to mind is Hebrews 6:4-8 (KJV)

(4) For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

(5) And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

(6) If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

(7) For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:

(8) But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

 

It is apparent that this is speaking of a BELIEVER!!! Notice it says "once enlightened", "tasted of the heavenly gift" "were made partakers of the Holy Ghost". You cannot partake of the Holy Ghost by merely attending church, taking communion, being baptized, etc.. You are only a partaker of Him, when He is in you! He has "tasted" the word of God, and enjoyed the "powers of the world to come".

It would be impossible for an unbeliever to be given this privilege by God! Do you know of any unbeliever/sinners who have enjoyed the powers of the world to come?

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

semi, you are right in the fact that Heb 6: 4-8 doesn't support OSAS.

 

Heb 6: 4-8

 [4] For it is impossible for those who were once illuminated, have tasted also the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, [5] Have moreover tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, [6] And are fallen away: to be renewed again to penance, crucifying again to themselves the Son of God, and making him a mockery. [7] For the earth that drinketh in the rain which cometh often upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is tilled, receiveth blessing from God. [8] But that which bringeth forth thorns and briers, is reprobate, and very near unto a curse, whose end is to be burnt.

 

[4] "It is impossible"... The meaning is, that it is impossible for such as have fallen after baptism, to be again baptized; and very hard for such as have apostatized from the faith, after having received many graces, to return again to the happy state from which they fell.

++++++++++++++++

 

Bill usually has ahout 50 chapter and verse that he rewrites the meanings

for, why not this time? Could it be the free ticket video?

.

Matthew 27 and Mark 15 both say Jesus said "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?", was offered vinegar, cried out again and died.

Luke 23 says that Jesus was offered vinegar more than three hours before dying, and said several things afterwards. It also says that his last words were "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit."

John says that Jesus said he was thirsty and was given the vinegar. From there, he said "It is finished" and died.

 

These words are from NIV, which actually includes the Aramaic for Matthew and Mark, though it spells them differently. (Hrm. So, those are also inconsistent. Hrm.)

So, we have two disparate timelines, and three distinct versions of what Jesus's last words were. Which of these is correct?

If we go with the first account, in Matthew and Mark, then both Luke and John are incorrect. If we go with either Luke or John, then three of the Gospels are incorrect.

We have a situation here where clearly there is error in the Bible. It cannot all be literal truth if there are three statements here that contradict each other.

If the Bible is not all literal truth, how can we (as mere, flawed humans) determine which parts are literal truth and which are not? Can we honestly have any faith in the absolute literal truthfulness of a work which is clearly not absolutely literally true? What percentage of the book, then, should we believe to be correct, as it clearly is not 100% so?

 

I cannot put my faith in something as literal truth when I know it is flawed. I cannot put my faith in something as the word of God when it clearly has had thousands of years of men's hands in it.

 

Consider, as recently as 1960, in a tremendously well-documented society, a man was born in Hawaii, and yet 50 years later we have people who believe AS ABSOLUTE TRUTH that he was not, and writing about it, and broadcasting their misunderstandings. In 1,000 years, if those were the writings found by future archaeologists, they would come to the conclusion that the man was not born in Hawaii, despite the well-documented reality of the situation.

 

From a largely pre-literate society, where some people had something to gain from making the fish a little bigger in their fish stories, I have negligible faith in the surviving writings as literal truth. Especially when they contradict each other.

Originally Posted by NunyoBidness:

Matthew 27 and Mark 15 both say Jesus said "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?", was offered vinegar, cried out again and died.

Luke 23 says that Jesus was offered vinegar more than three hours before dying, and said several things afterwards. It also says that his last words were "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit."

John says that Jesus said he was thirsty and was given the vinegar. From there, he said "It is finished" and died.

 

These words are from NIV, which actually includes the Aramaic for Matthew and Mark, though it spells them differently. (Hrm. So, those are also inconsistent. Hrm.)

So, we have two disparate timelines, and three distinct versions of what Jesus's last words were. Which of these is correct?

If we go with the first account, in Matthew and Mark, then both Luke and John are incorrect. If we go with either Luke or John, then three of the Gospels are incorrect.

We have a situation here where clearly there is error in the Bible. It cannot all be literal truth if there are three statements here that contradict each other.

If the Bible is not all literal truth, how can we (as mere, flawed humans) determine which parts are literal truth and which are not? Can we honestly have any faith in the absolute literal truthfulness of a work which is clearly not absolutely literally true? What percentage of the book, then, should we believe to be correct, as it clearly is not 100% so?

 

I cannot put my faith in something as literal truth when I know it is flawed. I cannot put my faith in something as the word of God when it clearly has had thousands of years of men's hands in it.

 

Consider, as recently as 1960, in a tremendously well-documented society, a man was born in Hawaii, and yet 50 years later we have people who believe AS ABSOLUTE TRUTH that he was not, and writing about it, and broadcasting their misunderstandings. In 1,000 years, if those were the writings found by future archaeologists, they would come to the conclusion that the man was not born in Hawaii, despite the well-documented reality of the situation.

 

From a largely pre-literate society, where some people had something to gain from making the fish a little bigger in their fish stories, I have negligible faith in the surviving writings as literal truth. Especially when they contradict each other.

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

 

Your right about that, I know it's none of my business, but you should

put that Bible down and leave it alone.

 

BTW,There is zero documented reality of the situation.

It's called a very very bad attempt.

 

.

Invictus,  don't you realize that this is one of the patented replies that atheist and non-believers have stored up just in case they were wrong about God.

 

I don't know what number it is but essentially it's:  

  • Couldn't believe in you because your Book Lied
  • The Bible had too many contradictions in it
  • It was too difficult to understand

etc ... etc .... etc ....  too many to actually attempt to print I'm sure.

Originally Posted by gbrk:

Invictus,  don't you realize that this is one of the patented replies that atheist and non-believers have stored up just in case they were wrong about God.

 

I don't know what number it is but essentially it's:  

  • Couldn't believe in you because your Book Lied
  • The Bible had too many contradictions in it
  • It was too difficult to understand

etc ... etc .... etc ....  too many to actually attempt to print I'm sure.

Yes, I know what you're saying gb, I was just trying to save the

boy some time. He could be reading cosmopolitan or something.

 

What I'm not seeing is common sense faith, so I don't see me having to

share a room in Heaven as of yet.

.

Hi all,

 

Just curious.  Has ANYONE bothered to watch the video?  If you will, you will find that many of your questions are answered.  While most Christians will want to hear his answers, even if you disagree with Dr. Bing -- you may find yourself agreeing with him on many things.

 

And, I realize that no matter what Dr. Bing, or anyone else teaches -- there are those non-believers who will stick their heads in the sand -- declaring they see nothing.  In other words, they are doing a good Sgt. Schultz impression, "I see nothing!  I hear nothing!  I know nothing!"  And, like Pharaoh, they will continue to harden their hearts.

 

But, for all my Friends with an "inquiring mind" -- I sincerely urge you to view Dr. Bing's video.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

I haven't had time yet, Bill. After you posted it yesterday, I had a few things that needed to be done and then I had to leave to be someplace. Today is busy too, and although I have had time to pop in between giving lessons, I haven't had time to watch the whole thing all the way through. I'll watch it tonight after I have closed the shop - that way I will be able to give it my full attention.

Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Hi all,

 

Just curious.  Has ANYONE bothered to watch the video?  If you will, you will find that many of your questions are answered.  While most Christians will want to hear his answers, even if you disagree with Dr. Bing -- you may find yourself agreeing with him on many things.

 

And, I realize that no matter what Dr. Bing, or anyone else teaches -- there are those non-believers who will stick their heads in the sand -- declaring they see nothing.  In other words, they are doing a good Sgt. Schultz impression, "I see nothing!  I hear nothing!  I know nothing!"  And, like Pharaoh, they will continue to harden their hearts.

 

But, for all my Friends with an "inquiring mind" -- I sincerely urge you to view Dr. Bing's video.

 

 

+++++++++++++++

( Hand raised )  I have not bothered to watch the video.

If I disagree with Bing, how do I agree with him?

 

I can't hear you Billie-je, I've got sand in my ears. 

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

Well gb, first of all the bible IS full of contradictions and should be treated like any other book of fantasy such as Harry Potter.  

Well, more Bibles have been sold than wonder woman, Lois Lane and

Bat Man funny books put together. There is some interest in it.
.

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

Well invictus, why don't you just think about that? I think it's pretty easy to see why. How many hundreds of years head start did your bible get?

---------------------

No No, The potters are based on a true story and got beat hands down.

 

.

Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Hi all,

Just curious.  Has ANYONE bothered to watch the video

 

And, I realize that no matter what Dr. Bing, or anyone else teaches -- there are those non-believers who will stick their heads in the sand -- declaring they see nothing.  In other words, they are doing a good Sgt. Schultz impression, "I see nothing!  I hear nothing!  I know nothing!"  

Bill

*************************************

Bill, I didn't watch the video because I'm sure it supports OSAS or you wouldn't have put it on here.

There will always be those people like you that stick their heads in the sand when people give them scriptures that teach against OSAS.

You do a good impression of "I see nothing!  I hear nothing!  I know nothing!"  when you refuse to address those scriptures.

 

Originally Posted by INVICTUS:

semi, you are right in the fact that Heb 6: 4-8 doesn't support OSAS.

Heb 6: 4-8

 [4] For it is impossible for those who were once illuminated, have tasted also the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, [5] Have moreover tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, [6] And are fallen away: to be renewed again to penance, crucifying again to themselves the Son of God, and making him a mockery. [7] For the earth that drinketh in the rain which cometh often upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is tilled, receiveth blessing from God. [8] But that which bringeth forth thorns and briers, is reprobate, and very near unto a curse, whose end is to be burnt.

 

[4] "It is impossible"... The meaning is, that it is impossible for such as have fallen after baptism, to be again baptized; and very hard for such as have apostatized from the faith, after having received many graces, to return again to the happy state from which they fell.

++++++++++++++++

 

Bill usually has ahout 50 chapter and verse that he rewrites the meanings

for, why not this time? Could it be the free ticket video?

.

******************************

Invictus, do you believe in OSAS?

Originally Posted by semiannualchick:
Originally Posted by INVICTUS:

semi, you are right in the fact that Heb 6: 4-8 doesn't support OSAS.

Heb 6: 4-8

 [4] For it is impossible for those who were once illuminated, have tasted also the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, [5] Have moreover tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, [6] And are fallen away: to be renewed again to penance, crucifying again to themselves the Son of God, and making him a mockery. [7] For the earth that drinketh in the rain which cometh often upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is tilled, receiveth blessing from God. [8] But that which bringeth forth thorns and briers, is reprobate, and very near unto a curse, whose end is to be burnt.

 

[4] "It is impossible"... The meaning is, that it is impossible for such as have fallen after baptism, to be again baptized; and very hard for such as have apostatized from the faith, after having received many graces, to return again to the happy state from which they fell.

++++++++++++++++

 

Bill usually has ahout 50 chapter and verse that he rewrites the meanings

for, why not this time? Could it be the free ticket video?

.

******************************

Invictus, do you believe in OSAS?

----------------------------------------

Never have, never will, It goes against true Christian beliefs and goes

against all Bible belief. It isn't Bibilical.

 

.

Just a question, based from my on curiosity, without biasing it with my own personal beliefs or position on this Doctrine.

 

Forget for a moment the terminology (OSAS).  For those that do believe that a person can lose their Salvation, have the Holy Spirit abandon the person's body and their inner spirit, leaving them in a lost, unsaved state.   What is it that accomplishes this?   Or in another way exactly what is it that causes this to occur?

 


Can Satan or his demons be responsible for such?  If so what protection does the Christian have in order to protect themselves from Satan or his demons power?  Does 1 Tim 4:1 apply here?


Can a person sin so as to lose their salvation?  If so then what sins accomplishes this?  Is 1 Corinthians 5:1-5 an applicable verse to use in discussion of this point?


How many ways can a person lose their salvation according to your interpretation of Scripture?


Do you consider this the unpardonable sin / blaspheme of the Holy Spirit?


If a Christian can lose their salvation is it able to be regained (according to Scripture)?  If not it not a natural expectation that God would, from Scripture, explain clearly how the Christian could/would lose it?

 

These are some questions that some believers who believe in Eternal Security or that God's Salvation is not able to be lost.  

 

This is a reasonable point of discussion among Christians and a Doctrine that Christians on both sides of the issue consider backed up by Scriptures. 

 


For those that believe in Eternal Security or that you cannot lose your salvation how do you reconcile the following verse

Hebrews 6:4 (CEV)
{4} But what about people who turn away after they have already seen the light and have received the gift from heaven and have shared in the Holy Spirit? What about those who turn away after they have received the good message of God and the powers of the future world? There is no way to bring them back. What they are doing is the same as nailing the Son of God to a cross and insulting him in public!


 

Each advocate for each Doctrine personally should be able to know that reason for what they believe.  Additionally each should recognize that those who hold opposing views also fully believe that their position is supported and reinforced by Scripture. 

Originally Posted by gbrk:

Each advocate for each Doctrine personally should be able to know that reason for what they believe.  Additionally each should recognize that those who hold opposing views also fully believe that their position is supported and reinforced by Scripture. 

-------

 

Brilliant point, captain obvious.  Yes, you are all "cafeteria Christians."  You take what you like and throw out the rest.  Heck, Bill is probably the most glaring example of a Cafeteria Christian. 

The atheists are the only ones who have it right: We call BS on all of it.

Originally Posted by INVICTUS:
Originally Posted by Road Puppy:

Yeah, well MY made-up invisible ghostie can whip YOUR made-up invisible ghostie....

 

 

--------------------------------------------------------

Well bless your little deviated septum.

 

Casper is on my side, he can handle your ghostie.

 

.

 

Originally Posted by gbrk:

Just a question, based from my on curiosity, without biasing it with my own personal beliefs or position on this Doctrine.

 

Each advocate for each Doctrine personally should be able to know that reason for what they believe.  Additionally each should recognize that those who hold opposing views also fully believe that their position is supported and reinforced by Scripture. 

***********************************

Those questions & scriptures have

been debated for years, & will go

on being debated.

Parts of the Bible speaks of Eternal

Security, others, as in Hebrews,

speaks of losing your salvation.

The Bible seems to contradict itself,

don't it?

Originally Posted by Unobtanium:
Originally Posted by gbrk:

Each advocate for each Doctrine personally should be able to know that reason for what they believe.  Additionally each should recognize that those who hold opposing views also fully believe that their position is supported and reinforced by Scripture. 

-------

 

Brilliant point, captain obvious.  Yes, you are all "cafeteria Christians."  You take what you like and throw out the rest.  Heck, Bill is probably the most glaring example of a Cafeteria Christian. 

The atheists are the only ones who have it right: We call BS on all of it.

_____________

Using your analogy, Bill and his FRANs would go into the cafeteria, get some broccoli and when they came to the green beans would ask why they were serving broccoli again.  He would certainly refuse any unleavened bread products, and suspect the owners of being Catholic. Then he would take his fork, say it is a spoon, and try to eat soup with it. 

 

Bill would go on to study the menu to the point of knowing every item listed and every ingredient, and if he didn't understand any of the French titles like "soup du jour" he would have it transliterated until he understood it to be "beans and wieners".  Using various menu items he would then project when the cafeteria actually opened that day.  If he happened to see that tonight's special was a "bottomless bowl of salad", he would expect the bowel it was served in to be literally bottomless, and when he actually saw the bowel would proudly and assuredly claim that the bowel did indeed have no bottom.

 

As Bill and his FRANs pay on the way out, Bill would accuse the cashier of being a plain old vanilla cashier, **** her to hell, and wish her a blessed day.

Originally Posted by CrustyMac:
If he happened to see that tonight's special was a "bottomless bowl of salad", he would expect the bowel it was served in to be literally bottomless, and when he actually saw the bowel would proudly and assuredly claim that the bowel did indeed have no bottom.

--------

 

Har! 

I see a lot of people intimating that my eternal soul is in peril, but what I'm NOT finding is anybody actually explaining the discrepancy I mentioned.

 

Is there any official explanation that Christians have for this? Or, do they just write it off as one of the "patented replies" people use when they don't understand how someone can be told two (or three...) contradictory things and believe that both are literally true?

 

I'm honestly curious to hear from the devout how they resolve this conflict. It seems clear to me that the three accounts in the four Gospels cannot all be true, so I'd like to know what kind of thinking goes into accepting that the works are literal and infallible.

 

If anyone can enlighten me, I'd be pleased to listen.

 

n.b.

Originally Posted by NunyoBidness:

I see a lot of people intimating that my eternal soul is in peril, but what I'm NOT finding is anybody actually explaining the discrepancy I mentioned.

 

Is there any official explanation that Christians have for this? Or, do they just write it off as one of the "patented replies" people use when they don't understand how someone can be told two (or three...) contradictory things and believe that both are literally true?

 

I'm honestly curious to hear from the devout how they resolve this conflict. It seems clear to me that the three accounts in the four Gospels cannot all be true, so I'd like to know what kind of thinking goes into accepting that the works are literal and infallible.

 

If anyone can enlighten me, I'd be pleased to listen.

 

n.b.

xxxxxxxxxxxxx

If I had any proof showing me you are capable of being enlightened,

I might waste some time on it, or maybe not? I'm not sure.

Originally Posted by NunyoBidness:

Is there any official explanation that Christians have for this? Or, do they just write it off as one of the "patented replies" people use when they don't understand how someone can be told two (or three...) contradictory things and believe that both are literally true?

-------

 

You will almost certainly receive one of the folowing replies:

 

1. You are too stupid to understand

2. You do not have the "spiritual discernment" necessary to understand this

3. Your mind is already made up to so why bother explaining?

Whatever the case, you will not receive anything resembling a rational answer to your serious question.   Sorry. 

Ooh, I left this one off,

" If I had any proof showing me you are capable of being enlightened,

I might waste some time on it, or maybe not? I'm not sure."

 

Or perhaps this falls under #1?  Either way, there is no answer so the best they can do is call you stupid. 

Originally Posted by NunyoBidness:

I see a lot of people intimating that my eternal soul is in peril, but what I'm NOT finding is anybody actually explaining the discrepancy I mentioned.

 

Is there any official explanation that Christians have for this? Or, do they just write it off as one of the "patented replies" people use when they don't understand how someone can be told two (or three...) contradictory things and believe that both are literally true?

 

I'm honestly curious to hear from the devout how they resolve this conflict. It seems clear to me that the three accounts in the four Gospels cannot all be true, so I'd like to know what kind of thinking goes into accepting that the works are literal and infallible.

 

If anyone can enlighten me, I'd be pleased to listen.

 

n.b.

-------------------------------

 

NB,,,,Out of the three Gospels you mentioned, I believe I would go with

John. He being the only apostle at the cross.

 

.

Originally Posted by NunyoBidness:

I see a lot of people intimating that my eternal soul is in peril, but what I'm NOT finding is anybody actually explaining the discrepancy I mentioned.

 

Is there any official explanation that Christians have for this? Or, do they just write it off as one of the "patented replies" people use when they don't understand how someone can be told two (or three...) contradictory things and believe that both are literally true?

 

I'm honestly curious to hear from the devout how they resolve this conflict. It seems clear to me that the three accounts in the four Gospels cannot all be true, so I'd like to know what kind of thinking goes into accepting that the works are literal and infallible.

 

If anyone can enlighten me, I'd be pleased to listen.

 

n.b.

_____________

With regard to the Gospels, I've been in meetings where five people heard six different things.  This is only a problem if you believe the Bible is to be taken as literal.  99% of all Christians are looking for the important messages in the Bible.  The fundamentalist wackos who believe the Bible should be taken literally tend to miss the point entirely.  Instead of a spiritual blueprint, they see a blueprint for everything, including the fact that the sun and the universe revolve around the earth, that the universe is only 6k years old, and that man was made out of dirt by magic.  Don't let the radicals and their distortions divert your attention.

Originally Posted by NunyoBidness:

Matthew 27 and Mark 15 both say Jesus said "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?", was offered vinegar, cried out again and died.

Luke 23 says that Jesus was offered vinegar more than three hours before dying, and said several things afterwards. It also says that his last words were "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit."

John says that Jesus said he was thirsty and was given the vinegar. From there, he said "It is finished" and died.

 

These words are from NIV, which actually includes the Aramaic for Matthew and Mark, though it spells them differently. (Hrm. So, those are also inconsistent. Hrm.)

So, we have two disparate timelines, and three distinct versions of what Jesus's last words were. Which of these is correct?

If we go with the first account, in Matthew and Mark, then both Luke and John are incorrect. If we go with either Luke or John, then three of the Gospels are incorrect.

We have a situation here where clearly there is error in the Bible. It cannot all be literal truth if there are three statements here that contradict each other.

If the Bible is not all literal truth, how can we (as mere, flawed humans) determine which parts are literal truth and which are not? Can we honestly have any faith in the absolute literal truthfulness of a work which is clearly not absolutely literally true? What percentage of the book, then, should we believe to be correct, as it clearly is not 100% so?

 

I cannot put my faith in something as literal truth when I know it is flawed. I cannot put my faith in something as the word of God when it clearly has had thousands of years of men's hands in it.

 

Consider, as recently as 1960, in a tremendously well-documented society, a man was born in Hawaii, and yet 50 years later we have people who believe AS ABSOLUTE TRUTH that he was not, and writing about it, and broadcasting their misunderstandings. In 1,000 years, if those were the writings found by future archaeologists, they would come to the conclusion that the man was not born in Hawaii, despite the well-documented reality of the situation.

 

From a largely pre-literate society, where some people had something to gain from making the fish a little bigger in their fish stories, I have negligible faith in the surviving writings as literal truth. Especially when they contradict each other.

 

Originally Posted by NunyoBidness:

I see a lot of people intimating that my eternal soul is in peril, but what I'm NOT finding is anybody actually explaining the discrepancy I mentioned.

 

Is there any official explanation that Christians have for this? Or, do they just write it off as one of the "patented replies" people use when they don't understand how someone can be told two (or three...) contradictory things and believe that both are literally true?

 

I'm honestly curious to hear from the devout how they resolve this conflict. It seems clear to me that the three accounts in the four Gospels cannot all be true, so I'd like to know what kind of thinking goes into accepting that the works are literal and infallible.

 

If anyone can enlighten me, I'd be pleased to listen.

 

n.b. 




 

I'm not sure how the status of one sternal soul correlates with the assertion that there is an error in the Scriptures other than potentially to say if Scriptures are in conflict that somehow that provides an out against the judgment we all must face but still it remains a valid question.  Whether or not you receive an answer that sufficiently answers your question, to your satisfaction is anyone's guess.

 

By reading I assume you are claiming that since Matthew, Mark, Luke & John are not carbon copies of each other that there exist an error or, if not you some, that the Bible is not reliable as a communication from God unto Mankind.

Matthew 27:47-50 (AMP) (those around the Cross,mention of Elijah offer wine for comfort after which he drinks He dies. )
{47} And some of the bystanders, when they heard it, said, This Man is calling for Elijah!
{48} And one of them immediately ran and took a sponge, soaked it with vinegar (a sour wine), and put it on a reed (staff), and was about to give it to Him to drink.
{49} But the others said, Wait! Let us see whether Elijah will come to save Him from death.
{50} And Jesus cried again with a loud voice and gave up His spirit.

 

Mark 15:35-37 (AMP) (followers of Jesus, Looking for Elijah offer wine for comfort after which he drinks He dies.)
{35} And some of those standing by, [and] hearing it, said, See! He is calling Elijah!
{36} And one man ran, and, filling a sponge with vinegar (a mixture of sour wine and water), put it on a staff made of a [bamboo-like] reed and gave it to Him to drink, saying, Hold off! Let us see whether Elijah [does] come to take Him down.
{37} And Jesus uttered a loud cry, and breathed out His life.

 

Luke 23:35-40 (AMP)  
{35} Now the people stood by [calmly and leisurely] watching; but the rulers scoffed and sneered (turned up their noses) at Him, saying, He rescued others [from death]; let Him now rescue Himself, if He is the Christ (the Messiah) of God, His Chosen One!
{36} The soldiers also ridiculed and made sport of Him, coming up and offering Him vinegar (a sour wine mixed with water)
{37} And saying, If you are the King of the Jews, save (rescue) Yourself [from death].
{38} For there was also an inscription above Him in letters of Greek and Latin and Hebrew: This is the King of the Jews.
{39} One of the criminals who was suspended kept up a railing at Him, saying, Are You not the Christ (the Messiah)? Rescue Yourself and us [from death]!
{40} But the other one reproved him, saying, Do you not even fear God, seeing you yourself are under the same sentence of condemnation and suffering the same penalty?

 

John 19:27-30 (AMP) (Some say that this rendering can also be a separate time from Matthew/Mark but I personally believe it is the same as Matthew/Mark and just reveals some additional details as who was there and said what.  Again these were three different people recording what they see through their eyes or testimony.)
{27} Then He said to the disciple, See, [here is] your mother! And from that hour, the disciple took her into his own [keeping, own home].
{28} After this, Jesus, knowing that all was now finished (ended), said in fulfillment of the Scripture, I thirst.
{29} A vessel (jar) full of sour wine (vinegar) was placed there, so they put a sponge soaked in the sour wine on [a stalk, reed of] hyssop, and held it to [His] mouth.
{30} When Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, It is finished! And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit.

Here we have four sections of scripture all relating events of one event.  This event transpired over some six hours, in time,and reading Matthew, Mark, and John seem to relate approximately the same point in time and that being the moment Christ dies.  Luke however is relating a different event and should not be considered the same event timewise.  In three of the renderings it is caring and followers of Jesus who care for His well being and comfort and offer Him the drink to help His comfort.   Luke is relating a different event, timewise from those related in Matthew, Mark, and John.  For one Luke identifies the ones presenting the drink out of sport and ridicule taunting Him to prove to them He is who He said he was by taking Himself down off the cross.  They are offering the drink out of taunting not attempting to comfort Christ.  Although the there that reference the same time period are not identical one would expect three different people writing from what they knew/observed/recorded would not be expect to be carbon copies of each other otherwise sure allegations of fraud and that it would be faked.  These writings were also later assembled into the scriptures we call the Bible.

 

There is no conflict of Scriptures as you seem to want to indicate that there is then as a challenge, almost, stating that no Christian is willing to confront this and explain it.   I also don't know about the statement that you see a lot of people here stating that your eternal soul is in peril but the Scriptures do say that everyone's soul/spirit is eternal and that Christ Jesus came and died as a sacrifice for our sins in order to provide us with an escape from judgment.  Christ is our only escape of Judgment that will occur one day for He is the only perfect blood sacrifice enabling us, gentiles, and jews, to obtain salvation.  It is not the members of this forum that will judge you or me but God who will Judge us all.  

Originally Posted by INVICTUS:
Originally Posted by NunyoBidness:
<snipped for space>

 

NB,,,,Out of the three Gospels you mentioned, I believe I would go with

John. He being the only apostle at the cross.

 

.

Note that the Apostle John provides the most defined description of the event by including more specifically who was there and who said what as well as indicating why the drink was offered.  The drink was offered due to Christ indicating he was thirsty.  Matthew and Mark did not indicate the reason the drink was offered.

Best, of course they cannot explain the contridictions.  They've never studied them.  These aren't the kinds of things you learn in Sunday school.

I can almost guarantee you that none of them have ever heard of the "Q" gospel.  Most scholars agree that the gospels were hammed together from various sources who sort of, ummm, borrowed material from more ancient sources to come up with the fictional story of Jesus.That original author is called "Q," 

 

Originally Posted by Unobtanium:

Best, of course they cannot explain the contridictions.  They've never studied them.  These aren't the kinds of things you learn in Sunday school.

I can almost guarantee you that none of them have ever heard of the "Q" gospel.  Most scholars agree that the gospels were hammed together from various sources who sort of, ummm, borrowed material from more ancient sources to come up with the fictional story of Jesus.That original author is called "Q," 

 

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

 

Q  Doesn't exist.

.

Originally Posted by INVICTUS:
Originally Posted by Unobtanium:

Best, of course they cannot explain the contridictions.  They've never studied them.  These aren't the kinds of things you learn in Sunday school.

I can almost guarantee you that none of them have ever heard of the "Q" gospel.  Most scholars agree that the gospels were hammed together from various sources who sort of, ummm, borrowed material from more ancient sources to come up with the fictional story of Jesus.That original author is called "Q," 

 

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

 

Q  Doesn't exist.

 

 

Not really, but Locutus does. You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile.

.

rum_mama, my friend and I have a few questions for you. If you don't want to answer them that's ok. Seeing as they are of a very personal nature.

Are you a transvestite? Or are you just a man that likes to dress up in drag? My friend happened to see your avatar the other day while we were hanging out and I was reading some threads on here and she wanted me to ask you these things. Again if you don't want to answer we understand completely.

Bill why would you say that you aimed this thread at the atheist? That makes no sense. We don't believe in ANY of it. If you will notice the only ones that are arguing this point with you are other Christians. I have only seen this done among Christians.

 

I (as an atheist) could care less which way you believe your God will save you and take you to heaven. It's ALL BS to me.

 

Originally Posted by CrustyMac:

        LOL.  Dark, are you a cat who wears glasses, or Radar O'Reilly with a furry face?





I'm a cat that wears glasses and asks way too many questions.  LOL  I had to google who Radar O'Reilly is and I had never realized how much he looks like George off of Seinfeld.

quote:   Originally Posted by DarkAngel:

Bill, why would you say that you aimed this thread at the atheist? That makes no sense. We don't believe in ANY of it.  If you will notice the only ones that are arguing this point with you are other Christians.  I have only seen this done among Christians.

 

I (as an atheist) could care less which way you believe your God will save you and take you to heaven.   It's ALL BS to me.

 
Hi Dark,

 

If you will go back and read my initial post, you will find that I did NOT say that this post is aimed at the atheists.  I said that I initially come on the Religion Forum in 2007 to refute the false teachings of the atheist, then primarily Deep and Fish.

 

But, the purpose of my post for this discussion is declared in this statement from my initial post:

 

My non-believing Friends on the Religion Forum continue to challenge me to prove these beliefs.  And, when I do offer Biblical foundation for my beliefs -- they refuse to hear it, they deny it, and they keep asking me, "Bill, you are always preaching OSAS.   Prove it!"

Wee, gee whiz, fellows and gals -- I have shown you practically every Scripture verse in the Bible -- supported by commentary writings from many very knowledgeable pastors, theologians, and Bible scholars.  Yet, you still demand, "Prove it!"


A non-believing Friend could be either a person who is not a Christian -- or it could be a Christian who does not believe the same as I believe.  But, here, I was referring more to my vanilla-flavored non-believing Friends who are not Christian -- yet, want to authoritatively define what a Christian is and what a Christian should believe; even though he/she is not a believer.  

 

So, my Friends who do not follow Jesus Christ anyway -- tells us that they do not believe in eternal security in Christ, i. e., the teaching of "once saved, always saved."  

 

Well, that is sort of like the person who does not like football, and does not follow football -- but, wants to tell Nick Saban how to coach our Alabama team.   Not much credibility.


So, Dark, my Friend, that was, and is, the main thrust of this discussion.

 

But, I am curious.  You tell me, "I (as an atheist) could care less which way you believe your God will save you and take you to heaven. It's ALL BS to me." 

 

Then, since you have absolutely no interest in God, nor how to get to heaven, nor how a person attains eternal security in Christ -- why did you come into a discussion titled, "'Once Saved, Always Saved' -- Really?"  Just reading the title would tell me that this is purely a Christian issue. 

 

So, what brought you into the discussion?  And, why do you then question why I wrote it -- if you (as an atheist) could care less?

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

The Bible has no contridictions in it but only different peoples writing of what happened at a certain event.

Let's consider the terrible events that happened on 9/11. Several thousand people saw the planes as they crashed into the twin towers and I would just guess that if 10 of those thousand people sat down and wrote about what they saw their prospective would all be different. BUT, ultimately they would ALL say that TWO PLANES did indeed crash into the twin towers. Those areas in the Bible that you athiest call contridictions are merely different peoples accounts of what they say and ultimately they saw the same thing but only worded differently.  Grasping at straws aren't we?

Originally Posted by Bill Gray:
quote:   Originally Posted by DarkAngel:

Bill, why would you say that you aimed this thread at the atheist? That makes no sense. We don't believe in ANY of it.  If you will notice the only ones that are arguing this point with you are other Christians.  I have only seen this done among Christians.

 

I (as an atheist) could care less which way you believe your God will save you and take you to heaven.   It's ALL BS to me.

 
Hi Dark,

 

If you will go back and read my initial post, you will find that I did NOT say that this post is aimed at the atheists. <Omitted, by me, for space>

 

But, I am curious.  You tell me, "I (as an atheist) could care less which way you believe your God will save you and take you to heaven. It's ALL BS to me." 

 

Then, since you have absolutely no interest in God, nor how to get to heaven, nor how a person attains eternal security in Christ -- why did you come into a discussion titled, "'Once Saved, Always Saved' -- Really?"  Just reading the title would tell me that this is purely a Christian issue. 

 

So, what brought you into the discussion?  And, why do you then question why I wrote it -- if you (as an atheist) could care less?

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

An excellent and most relevant question considering how you were jumped on as if you came into some forum posting something as if it was not welcome in the forum.  


You will, however, get the same patented responses about how this question has been answered a hundred times and therefore does not warrant another answer.  How dare you ask a question that has been ask before and certainly one which might reveal the real nature behind these people and what it really says about their motives and who/what they are.  Notice also how someway someone will try and inject that we, Christians, go over in the Atheist forums as if the fact that there are some Christians that do that somehow justifies the great number of atheist/non-beleivers here.  Some of them however are very open about it expressing their hatred  for our "religion" and the reason they are here is to call "BS" as they say on everything we post as if there is some large atheistic following here on the Religion forum, that somehow may see our post or that people are forced to be here somehow against their will.


It will though be interesting yet again to see the answer to your question ... that is provided you get an original one.  I will though re-paste a reply below this one that I first posted September 14th, 2011 at 2:50PM under the topic "Pray for Rain".  I think in many cases it also potentially hits so close to the target that there wasn't much said about it.

Bill Gray wrote in a previous posts, under this subject, the following in response to Dark Angel's critique of Bill's post regarding a "Christian" subject/topic posted under the Religion forum.

 

But, I am curious.  You tell me, "I (as an atheist) could care less which way you believe your God will save you and take you to heaven. It's ALL BS to me." 

 

Then, since you have absolutely no interest in God, nor how to get to heaven, nor how a person attains eternal security in Christ -- why did you come into a discussion titled, "'Once Saved, Always Saved' -- Really?"  Just reading the title would tell me that this is purely a Christian issue. 

 

So, what brought you into the discussion?  And, why do you then question why I wrote it -- if you (as an atheist) could care less?

 

This usually elicits the same responses such as it's all been answered before, It's been ask a hundred times before and answered to we should go back, find, and research the answer.  I, under the "Pray for Rain" had another idea, thought, or theory which I will re-paste below.  I think in some cases it provides a suggestion or theory as to why we see such terse post in response to our attempts to have a dialog about Christian issues.  It's also interesting to point out that it doesn't matter what the subject is there are at least some atheist/non-belivers who make it a point to barge in and tell us how stupid or idiotic we are for believing or some demeaning comments.  So I will re-post what my thoughts were as I pondered why so many, who claim they care nothing about God or religion, seem to gravitate here and cannot seem to withhold their criticism as if someone reached out and pulled them, kicking and screaming, into the forum about Religion.

 

GBRK posted on September 14, 2011

Over the days that I participated continually in the forum I've always wondered why atheist and non-believers are so prevalent in a forum that seems dedicated to something they either reject or don't believe in or about a God or Deity that they say doesn't exist or that they don't care about.


Others have said they aren't here to convert anyone and often it is said that atheist or non-believers are here to call BS on the stupidity or something like that.  I have set on the side at times, without jumping in and just read the replies and post and it seems to me I had the answer all along.  You and others are here for a very good and valid reason and one which should answer your own questions about if God exist or whether or not God exist.


Each of you, in your own way, seek to do battle with God, you seek to defeat God to overwhelm God to be supreme to God and that impossibility resonates within your conscience.  That inner created soul/spirit within you, that same one that will still exist after your physical body dies, longs to know it's creator and without that right relationship with God, it's creator, is an unsatisfying thorn in your flesh.  It eats you alive that there is some need for God that you cannot squelch so you seek to do battle with that urge and need, in effect do battle with God who is convicting you with His Holy Spirit, by doing battle with God by proxy.  You cannot silence God or defeat God so you battle is carried to those who represent God, Those who call themselves Christians or believers, on here.  


You may can present a case on here where you seemingly prevail over God or where you feel you have prevailed over some other Christian who disagrees with you but what you are doing is trying to silence that inner call, from God, that lets you know that there is something else that you do not grasp and that is a right relationship with the (your) creator.  You cannot battle God so you battle those that are called by His name.  You seek to demean them or ridicule them in your attempts to do the same to God hoping that will give you the feeling of overcoming God but yet it does little to actually end that inner torment that you deal with every second, every minute, every day.


I do truly believe that many of you are here for that reason.  You wish to overcome and convince others, including convincing yourself, that you have overcome and defeated God.  You seek to blame "our Religion" or claim we are deluded by belief in a God that somehow you cannot experience or know.  The reason you don't know God is you have never met God or given yourself over to God and allowed God to introduce Himself to you and reconcile your inner spirit with His Holy Spirit.  


There may be a few that are here only to be destructive as they can and abusive as they can but I believe the real reason is what I said above.  There is an inner battle being waged with God's Spirit within and you seek to overcome God by overcoming His proclaimed servants.  You wage a battle by Proxy for you cannot overcome God and stop that inner torment and inner decision that you deal with daily.  The only way you will overcome that torment is to allow God to speak with you and humble yourself enough to listen.  Jesus Christ died for us to have that ability to actually communicate with God directly and not have to go through a priest or a Holy of Holies.  Through Christ and our acceptance of His Sacrifice on the Cross for our Sins we actually have direct access to God and can experience the magnitude of being before God.  There IS no question that remains about IF God exist for that is answered in a most demonstrative way, by God Himself.


Debate and verbally wage written battle with words as much as you want on these forums with those of us who call ourselves Christian but know that God does His own dealing with people and the real question you must ask and answer is whether God is actually the one dealing with you for that inner void and vacancy doesn't go away or get better by on it's own or by any prevailing one way or the other over a person whom says they believe in God.  


I have no way of proving any of that but I fully believe that to be the case in some of those on here and why they are here so often and in every topic.  They are here for a need and one which cannot be squelched by calling any of us demeaning names or seeking to prevail in an open debate.  


Originally Posted by Bill Gray:
quote:   Originally Posted by DarkAngel:

Bill, why would you say that you aimed this thread at the atheist? That makes no sense. We don't believe in ANY of it.  If you will notice the only ones that are arguing this point with you are other Christians.  I have only seen this done among Christians.

 

I (as an atheist) could care less which way you believe your God will save you and take you to heaven.   It's ALL BS to me.

 
Hi Dark,

 

If you will go back and read my initial post, you will find that I did NOT say that this post is aimed at the atheists.  I said that I initially come on the Religion Forum in 2007 to refute the false teachings of the atheist, then primarily Deep and Fish.

 

But, the purpose of my post for this discussion is declared in this statement from my initial post:

 

My non-believing Friends on the Religion Forum continue to challenge me to prove these beliefs.  And, when I do offer Biblical foundation for my beliefs -- they refuse to hear it, they deny it, and they keep asking me, "Bill, you are always preaching OSAS.   Prove it!"

Wee, gee whiz, fellows and gals -- I have shown you practically every Scripture verse in the Bible -- supported by commentary writings from many very knowledgeable pastors, theologians, and Bible scholars.  Yet, you still demand, "Prove it!"


A non-believing Friend could be either a person who is not a Christian -- or it could be a Christian who does not believe the same as I believe.  But, here, I was referring more to my vanilla-flavored non-believing Friends who are not Christian -- yet, want to authoritatively define what a Christian is and what a Christian should believe; even though he/she is not a believer.  

 

So, my Friends who do not follow Jesus Christ anyway -- tells us that they do not believe in eternal security in Christ, i. e., the teaching of "once saved, always saved."  

 

Well, that is sort of like the person who does not like football, and does not follow football -- but, wants to tell Nick Saban how to coach our Alabama team.   Not much credibility.


So, Dark, my Friend, that was, and is, the main thrust of this discussion.

 

But, I am curious.  You tell me, "I (as an atheist) could care less which way you believe your God will save you and take you to heaven. It's ALL BS to me." 

 

Then, since you have absolutely no interest in God, nor how to get to heaven, nor how a person attains eternal security in Christ -- why did you come into a discussion titled, "'Once Saved, Always Saved' -- Really?"  Just reading the title would tell me that this is purely a Christian issue. 

 

So, what brought you into the discussion?  And, why do you then question why I wrote it -- if you (as an atheist) could care less?

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

I read every new topic when I visit here. Just my habit. I can do that you know....free will and all.

 

This is what I was responding to, you posted to okuok:

 

"So, my whole focus is on addressing those folk -- those atheists and other non-believers who jump on these issues when I mention  them.  That was my focus.  And, although there are Christian believers who also disagree with me -- my mental focus was not on  them -- but, instead, it was on the atheist and other non-believers."

 

Now why would YOU post something like this aimed at atheist who don't believe either way? Makes no sense. As I said before the only ones that argue this OSAS issue with you are other Christians. Show me one post by an atheist where they tried to argue against OSAS in favor of another form of Christian salvation.....show me....

 

You and GK seem to have the same affliction. Can't remember what you wrote even if it was only yesterday....age maybe?

 

You were caught calling Christians non-believers so you threw in the comment about addressing atheist to cover your true feelings on the matter. Okuok, had called you out and said you were sinning. You think that if a Christian does not believe as you do then they are "non-believers" I have been reading here long enough to know that about you.  You believe your interpretation of the bible is the only true one. Everyone one else is wrong and vanilla flavored at best. Right?

 

One more time I will tell you and GK, and the other Christians that question why I come to the religion forum. I come here because I like to discuss the topic of religion. It plays a big role in ALL our lives whether we want it to or not. I don't have to believe that something is real to talk and discuss it. You believe it right? I want to try and understand why and how you could believe such stuff. So far I have not had any real or truthful answers...but I keep waiting and reading.

 

Originally Posted by gbrk:
Debate and verbally wage written battle with words as much as you want on these forums with those of us who call ourselves Christian but know that God does His own dealing with people and the real question you must ask and answer is whether God is actually the one dealing with you for that inner void and vacancy doesn't go away or get better by on it's own or by any prevailing one way or the other over a person whom says they believe in God.  


I have no way of proving any of that but I fully believe that to be the case in some of those on here and why they are here so often and in every topic.  They are here for a need and one which cannot be squelched by calling any of us demeaning names or seeking to prevail in an open debate.  


 

 

You could not be more wrong GK. Back to the drawing board.....

Not Once, But Many Times But what about Romans 10:9-10? Doesn’t the Bible say if you believe in your heart and confess Jesus with your mouth you shall be saved? Yes it does, but that doesn’t mean we need only confess faith in Christ one time. The Bible uses the same Greek word for confess, homologeitai, in multiple places and emphasizes we must continue to confess Christ if we are going to be finally saved. For example, in Matthew 10:22, 32 Jesus says, "You will be hated by all because of my name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved.. . . Therefore everyone who confesses me before men, I will also confess him before my father who is in heaven. . . ." (NAB). The context here is one of holding fast to our confession until death (see also 2 Tm 2:12 and Heb 4:14; 10:23-26).
Originally Posted by I am the Fireman:

The Bible has no contridictions in it but only different peoples writing of what happened at a certain event.

Let's consider the terrible events that happened on 9/11. Several thousand people saw the planes as they crashed into the twin towers and I would just guess that if 10 of those thousand people sat down and wrote about what they saw their prospective would all be different. BUT, ultimately they would ALL say that TWO PLANES did indeed crash into the twin towers. Those areas in the Bible that you athiest call contridictions are merely different peoples accounts of what they say and ultimately they saw the same thing but only worded differently.  Grasping at straws aren't we?

_________________

The minor contradictions prove that God didn't write the Bible.  The major ones - like an eye for an eye, turn the other cheek - pretty much do away with the idea that the Bible is inerrant.  Then you get to the silliness that using "genealogy" in the Bible proves that the earth is only 6k years old, you have pretty much destroyed that it should be taken literally.  After you come to terms with all that, maybe then you can find the real message in the Bible.

Crusty, I would beg to differ with you on that "major contradiction." The eye for an eye law was given to the Children of Israel as they traveled in the wilderness. They had no jails in which to place criminals...or Ronnie Willis to protect them (yes, that was sarcasm). Don't you think the possibility of such a punishment would deter crime?

 

"Turning the other cheek" doesn't mean we have to be masochists or doormats. We forgive and try to help those who have sinned against us. It doesn't literally mean we have to stand there and let someone hit us again.

Originally Posted by DarkAngel:

As I said before the only ones that argue this OSAS issue with you are other Christians.

 

Okuok, had called you out and said you were sinning. You think that if a Christian does not believe as you do then they are "non-believers" I have been reading here long enough to know that about you.  You believe your interpretation of the bible is the only true one. Everyone one else is wrong and vanilla flavored at best. Right?

 

One more time I will tell you and GK, and the other Christians that question why I come to the religion forum. I come here because I like to discuss the topic of religion. It plays a big role in ALL our lives whether we want it to or not. I don't have to believe that something is real to talk and discuss it. You believe it right? I want to try and understand why and how you could believe such stuff. So far I have not had any real or truthful answers...but I keep waiting and reading.

 

_________________________________

No, it's not only Christians that argue the OSAS issue with Bill.

I'm not a Christian & I've given Bill scripture after scripture that speaks against OSAS. Bill skips those post that he can't answer. He had rather argue & make fun of others than have an adult discussion.

 

It's none of anyone's business why you come to this forum. Bill has questioned why I'm here. I'm not an Atheist, but I'm not a Christian either. I'm always willing to learn when someone can show me I'm wrong & prove it. Not just their opinion on what the Bible says, but proof. Like you, I'm still waiting & reading.

 

I've said it before & will say it again. I believe, with all my heart, that Bill is not a Christian, he just wears the hat. He does more to harm Christianity & I feel sorry for him.

 

Originally Posted by FirenzeVeritas:

Crusty, I would beg to differ with you on that "major contradiction." The eye for an eye law was given to the Children of Israel as they traveled in the wilderness. They had no jails in which to place criminals...or Ronnie Willis to protect them (yes, that was sarcasm). Don't you think the possibility of such a punishment would deter crime?

 

"Turning the other cheek" doesn't mean we have to be masochists or doormats. We forgive and try to help those who have sinned against us. It doesn't literally mean we have to stand there and let someone hit us again.

______________

It doesn't literally mean that?  

 

I don't want to get into the historical accuracy of Exodus, but there is little evidence for any of it.  Unless of course, the Ark of the Covenant is in Warehouse 13. 

Originally Posted by DarkAngel:
Originally Posted by gbrk:
Debate and verbally wage written battle with words as much as you want on these forums with those of us who call ourselves Christian but know that God does His own dealing with people and the real question you must ask and answer is whether God is actually the one dealing with you for that inner void and vacancy doesn't go away or get better by on it's own or by any prevailing one way or the other over a person whom says they believe in God.  


I have no way of proving any of that but I fully believe that to be the case in some of those on here and why they are here so often and in every topic.  They are here for a need and one which cannot be squelched by calling any of us demeaning names or seeking to prevail in an open debate.  


 

 

You could not be more wrong GK. Back to the drawing board.....




The points, and people, that I was addressing were not those who wish to enter into respectful debate or disagreement and present their position to defend it or argue against another's position as that is what I would fully expect the forum to be for.   

 

The problem that I have, and the people that I addressed the comment mainly to and about are, with those who disguise debate or comments as insults and personal demeaning remarks about other individuals.  There certainly are and have been cases where the topic or subject has not mattered whatsoever but any and every opportunity to ridicule Christian individuals is taken and it's done in a personal manner.  It's also done by twisting what was stated into something totally different and then running with it as if the person said it.  There is no indication that any dialog is desired or intended but rather attempt to conquer at any and every opportunity in a badgering way.

 

There have been others, non-Christians who have also noticed this and called various members on it, ReleaseTheElephant being one of those who accurately described what was going on.  It is those who practice deception and ridicule as well as seemingly being here for only to demean anyone who claims to be a Christian that I attempted to reason why they were here and what purpose they would have in a forum described for something they do not believe in.   Oh there are statements that it is for Religion and other practices but I have yet to see it in writing and at this point it simply is not there.  Regardless if it was that still does not justify the personal demeaning statements made against Christians.  Or by any Christian if that is or was done.

 

One simply has to look at historical subject post and see that even when it is a post or subject that is targeted toward other Christians they (we) are not allowed to debate among ourselves without being ridiculed and  attacked.  In those replies against us (Christians), there is no debate going on and no dialog explaining conflicting beliefs but rather there is just ridicule and heckling of those who seek to discuss some Christian doctrine or issue among others.  It is that mentality that I stand against and therefore post against and not genuine and respectful disagreement or debate.  Lest my words be twisted again I will state we are not seeking a forum for ourselves or to restrict the forum to any specific group or people but rather I am saying those who choose to not use the forum for anything but heckling and personal demeaning remarks for the sake of attack and for the sake of downing someone that believes in something that they don't.  

 

All one has to do is look at the historical evidence and it is plain that no opposing argument, at least by many, is being put forth and debated but rather the persons (Christians) are being attacked or personally demeaned for their belief.  My opinion about why many of those are here still stands and I am not convinced otherwise so no need to go back to the drawing board on that.


With regard to someone who over and over demonstrates the opposite of the type person I am talking about, that would be semi.  She calms not to be a Christian and differs with many Christians on here but she is RESPECTFUL and presents her arguments with points and information rather than attacks on a person's character or perceived intellect.  I also realize that Semi has some argument against some other forum members for what she says is hatful remarks, from an admitted Christian, toward her and about her.  Those are issues that, whatever it deals with, should be handled by the person who has offended her or caused her to feel as such and work that out to enable dialog between them in a constructive way.  Semi, from what I have seen has always been respectful even in disagreement and that is what everyone should achieve to be even in disagreement.  Sadly though there are many that are not and it is those whom I wonder why they are here and ventured to explain why there is some venom behind their post and words. They are, seemingly, permanently biased against certain members on here (Religion/Politics etc) based solely upon what the person believes and not based upon the persons themselves.  

Hi GB,

You tell Dark, "Semi, from what I have seen, has always been respectful even in disagreement -- and that is what everyone should achieve to be, even in disagreement.  Sadly though there are many that are not, and it is those whom I wonder why they are here -- and ventured to explain why there is some venom behind their post and words. 


They are, seemingly, permanently biased against certain members on here (Religion/Politics etc) based solely upon what the person believes and not based upon the persons themselves."

Let me ask you a question.  If a person comes on the Religion Forum teaching a false religion or a cult religion -- should a Christian believer merely look the other way and not refute what that person has written?

If so, how do we explain to God, one day, when He asks about that person who was just beginning to seek God -- and was led away from belief in God -- by a false religion or a cult religion?  How can we explain to God that we did not refute the false teaching which led this soul away from God -- because we wanted to be friend with the false religion or cult religion teacher?

Do you believe that Christians should refute false teachings and cult teachings on public forums such as the Religion Forum?

Are you willing to shine the Light of the Gospel upon such false religion and cult religion teachings?  If yes, then praise God.  If not, why not?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Originally Posted by CrustyMac:
Originally Posted by FirenzeVeritas:

Crusty, I would beg to differ with you on that "major contradiction." The eye for an eye law was given to the Children of Israel as they traveled in the wilderness. They had no jails in which to place criminals...or Ronnie Willis to protect them (yes, that was sarcasm). Don't you think the possibility of such a punishment would deter crime?

 

"Turning the other cheek" doesn't mean we have to be masochists or doormats. We forgive and try to help those who have sinned against us. It doesn't literally mean we have to stand there and let someone hit us again.

______________

It doesn't literally mean that?  

 

I don't want to get into the historical accuracy of Exodus, but there is little evidence for any of it.  Unless of course, the Ark of the Covenant is in Warehouse 13. 

 

 

I think it will be Saturday at the Florence Library.

Bill, does what a person believes & speaks not reflect upon that individuals personality? All we have to go by about someone here (unless we know them personally) is what we read daily on his or her thoughts & beliefs.

 

You write your novels full of your opinion & Bible scriptures. If anyone disagrees with you, or questions you, you call it a “spitting contest” & run away to start another topic. That’s your way of running from the questions you don’t want to answer or don’t know how to answer.


There’s nothing wrong with giving your opinion in what you believe to be a false or cult religion. It’s all in how you go about it. You do not have Spiritual Discernment.

2 Tim 2:24-26 says “And a servant of the Lord must not strive but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient,  in humility correcting those who oppose themselves, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth,  and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.”

You have a critical judgmental spirit. You do not have love/compassion for anyone on this forum. You beat us over the head with YOUR truth, how YOU see it, not the truth of the Bible. Anyone can quote scripture, it’s all about how a person delivers that scripture.


How are YOU going to explain to God, one day, when He asks you about that person who was just beginning to seek God -- and YOU led him or her away from belief in God with your judgmental attitude? What are you going to say when He asks where the love/compassion was?

What’s wrong with being friends with a cult religion teacher? You can draw more near you with honey than with vinegar.

Until you can perceive yourself correctly & deal with the impurity in your own heart, you will not see clearly what is in the heart of another.

 
You asked GB if he was willing to shine the Light of the Gospel upon false religion & cult religion teachings. It’s not your call to make or to judge what he may or may not do. He doesn’t have to answer to you.

I have seen more kindness out of him than I’ve ever seen out of you.

 

Proverbs 15:1 says “A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger”.

You, Bill, stir up anger, & turn people away from the very gospel you say you want to spread. You must be a very angry man with hidden issues that you should deal with before you try to help others.

 

Originally Posted by gbrk:
 

With regard to someone who over and over demonstrates the opposite of the type person I am talking about, that would be semi.  She calms not to be a Christian and differs with many Christians on here but she is RESPECTFUL and presents her arguments with points and information rather than attacks on a person's character or perceived intellect.  I also realize that Semi has some argument against some other forum members for what she says is hatful remarks, from an admitted Christian, toward her and about her.  Those are issues that, whatever it deals with, should be handled by the person who has offended her or caused her to feel as such and work that out to enable dialog between them in a constructive way.  Semi, from what I have seen has always been respectful even in disagreement and that is what everyone should achieve to be even in disagreement. 

  _________________________________


Thank you for your kind words. I’m truly touched by them but sadly, I’m not always respectful, of which I should be & am ashamed of. I have come strong against Bill Gray in his teachings of OSAS & his judgmental, hateful attitude. That I am not ashamed of because if I am to believe what the Bible says, then Bill is wrong.


The Bible does speak of eternal security but it also speaks of a person being lost again.

The Bible does seem to contradict itself in that respect but I guess it comes down to what a person chooses to believe.


I’ve told Bill several times that if OSAS is true, then I’m just as saved as he is. But it is not true. I’ve given Bill scripture after scripture that teaches against OSAS but he refuses to acknowledge those scriptures or answer. He prefers to call it a spitting contest & runs away from the topic.


I’ve learned much since coming to this forum & hope to continue to learn. Some things I have found myself to be wrong about & others I stand firm on until someone can prove me wrong. When someone sticks their head in the sand, & refuses to learn, that person will not have the capacity to acquire & apply knowledge. I refuse to stick my head in the sand.

 

Bill, does what a person believes & speaks not reflect upon that individuals personality? All we have to go by about someone here (unless we know them personally) is what we read daily on his or her thoughts & beliefs.

 

You write your novels full of your opinion & Bible scriptures. If anyone disagrees with you, or questions you, you call it a “spitting contest” & run away to start another topic. That’s your way of running from the questions you don’t want to answer or don’t know how to answer.

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

The one person I can point to that has shown kindness to others, conducted himself like a gentleman always, and shown "grace under fire" is skippy-dwight-wooly". It's funny to watch bill foam and spew at sdw and call his religion a cult, and back comes sdw calm, cool and collected to answer once more a question bill ask and to give him a  little thump on the nose. Bill nags and nags at him but can't get a rise. I have a suggestion for a title of one of bill's threads, he can call it- "Get off my back, I'm playing preacher here and I don't have to tell the truth or answer questions"!!

Originally Posted by Bill Gray:        (GBRK response, within Bill's reply is in RED text, final words of GBRK's reply in BLUE afterwards)

Hi GB,

You tell Dark, "Semi, from what I have seen, has always been respectful even in disagreement -- and that is what everyone should achieve to be, even in disagreement.  Sadly though there are many that are not, and it is those whom I wonder why they are here -- and ventured to explain why there is some venom behind their post and words. 


They are, seemingly, permanently biased against certain members on here (Religion/Politics etc) based solely upon what the person believes and not based upon the persons themselves."

 

Bill Gray Says: 

Let me ask you a question.  If a person comes on the Religion Forum teaching a false religion or a cult religion -- should a Christian believer merely look the other way and not refute what that person has written?


 I reply, Who is judge over who is teaching a "false religion"?  Ask a Muslim and they will tell you that ours is a false religion.  Ask one of the atheist and they will say all religion is false.  From the standpoint of the Religion forum no one member has the claim on the true religion from the standpoint of what we can demonstrate to others on the forum.  The only thing that makes Christians special is the thing that makes Christianity special and that is a Living Savior in Jesus Christ but more specifically a Living (existing) God ever present and active via His Holy Spirit.  It is God's Holy Spirit that testifies and certifies Christianity as true, not you and not me or any other human being.   Therefore determination of True religion is God's to make and judgment upon any false religion is also God's to make.  Any human attempt to do so only creates strife and dissension.   If I tell Skippy, as you have, that the Mormon religion is a cult or if I tell a Muslim that they are serving the wrong God and mediator then I stir up anger and resentment within them because I am but another created human no better than they are telling them that they are wrong and I am right.  I am therefore telling another human I am better than they are with nothing to back that up so I am creating strife and creating a wedge that is being driven between me and them.  The ONLY way a person will know if their religion is false or if their belief is not founded in truth is for GOD to tell them, not me.  God's Holy Spirit is fully able and capable in explaining to another person that their belief is wrong in a way that is convincing to them.  As I see it, my responsibility, as a Christian, is to be a willing vessel or tool to be used of and by God in whichever way HE desires.  I will, as led share my faith, if ask the basis of my belief, and defend my beliefs by sharing them but I allow God's Holy Spirit to work as He will.   

 


 

 Bill Gray then says:

If so, how do we explain to God, one day, when He asks about that person who was just beginning to seek God -- and was led away from belief in God -- by a false religion or a cult religion?  How can we explain to God that we did not refute the false teaching which led this soul away from God -- because we wanted to be friend with the false religion or cult religion teacher?

 


I reply, Even what you type to me is a condemning and judgmental statement disguised as a question.  You are assuming that because I do not do as you that God will somehow find disfavor with me and that I then must give account to God for it was my method or my (not doing what you do) attitude that caused another to not find God.  


Bill I cannot do anything of myself.  It is not my place to Judge another person, it is not my place to prove to another person that their belief is false.  It is GOD's place via His Holy Spirit to reveal unto His people their inadequacies and needs.  It is the Holy Spirit's Conviction that reveals a Spiritual Need within the lives/souls of a lost (unsaved) person their Spiritual state.  It is God's Holy Spirit that deals with man not me, or you.  It is our responsibility to be open and yield to God's Holy Spirit and respond as directed but it is God's domain to Judge and He has an appointed time for that.  You, or I, as a human confronting another human are no better than they are.  When you claim to be the sole correct interpreter of Scripture or the only one who is right you create friction and created a dividing wall between you and the other person that prevents dialog with them but allows Satan an opportunity to harden their hearts against the Gospel and what God would have for them.  So let me turn your question around.  What would you (Bill) say to God when He ask why did you, as a human, assume to that that which is my domain?  Why did you create friction and anger when there should have been understanding and love and allow ME (God) by my Holy Spirit the opportunity to work unimpeded in this lost person's life?  Why did by your fleshly actions of Judging your fellow human create a wedge between my Holy Spirit whereby I could not work through you as I wanted to?


When you refute the false teaching, as you put it, then you have judged another.  God does want us to refute false teachings within our Church and within our body in order to prevent corruption of God's Word but when you go on an Evangelical mission you present the word of God accurately and allow God's Holy Spirit to use it to divide between body and spirit so as to convince the other person that what we speak, and teach, is real and factual.  There are areas that we do not compromise on however if we are living a Christian life as the Scripture tells us to then we should be living in response to how God's Holy Spirit leads us and tells us.  Christ own harshest words were reserved for those who were religious so a false or corrupt gospel will not be allowed but it is God that is Judge and not us, unless somehow God, through the Holy Spirit, has given you this power and ministry but if that is the case there should be defining signs and confirming signs that you have that mission and assignment from God.  If you are not assigned to be our Judge then why do you persist and continue to act as if you are?

 


 

Bill Gray Continues:

Do you believe that Christians should refute false teachings and cult teachings on public forums such as the Religion Forum?

 



I reply, So just what is a false teaching Bill?  Is it something that goes against Scripture?  Who is the authority and judge that Scripture is correct for there are many diverse people on here that claim authority of Scripture yet differ on opinions?  I suggest that is because we are all human and live in the flesh with inadequacies.   I suggest that the Holy Spirit of God is our only judge of what is true and false and this same Holy Spirit will reveal unto those He wishes to, what is true and what is false.  We, you and I, both professing Christians, have differed and debated with each other regarding the timing of the Rapture.  We both cannot be right as we both differ so who determines who is right and who is wrong?  Who interpreted scripture correctly and who didn't?  When YOU make that determination, yourself, you err as only God's Holy Spirit will ultimately reveal the Truth to those who listen unto Him.


What we should do is, only as prompted by God's Holy Spirit defend our beliefs by putting forth scripture that God lays on our minds to present.  Then allow God to work and not assume God's ministry for Him.  Unless there is some special power you have, given by God, and assigned by His Spirit to do so you should be a vessel for God's Spirit to minister unto others through.  If you are not assigned or gifted to judge others than do not do it for when you do you created a wedge which Satan can use to isolate that person from God's ministry and the Word.

 


 

Are you willing to shine the Light of the Gospel upon such false religion and cult religion teachings?  If yes, then praise God.  If not, why not?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

 


 


 


To which I conclude:

Bill,   What I have tried to say above is as you put it, it is the LIGHT OF THE GOSPEL upon false religions, cult religions, and teachings.  It is NOT the Light of Bill or the Light of GBRK.  Unto others it is our religion or our belief that is false and cultish.  The only difference we have going for us is that our beliefs and Christianity is confirmed by God through and in His Holy Spirit.  You cannot by anything you do, or I by anything I do, get inside a person and minister to their inner spirit and mind but God's Holy Spirit can and does.  What we, being human, can do is by our own human judgment or prejudgment of another individual created a wedge which Satan will and can use to harden the person's heart so that they will not listen unto God.  They become offended and upset that another human, just as flawed as them, claims authority or superiority over them and that brings up a wall of resentment and controversy.   The Light of the Gospel shines on it's own and we are not to do anything to get in it's way.  We can present our beliefs, that which we know to be, from Scripture, but that is, I believe, the limit of our mission as a Christian.  God has specific missions for specific people and unto them He will reveal that.  God's Holy Spirit convicts people of their needs and of their sins and that is Scriptural.    What is not Scriptural is for you, or I, to assume that ministry of God and attempt to judge another person based upon our own beliefs and feelings.  


The answer I will give to God will be that I pray that I have presented my body, mind, abilities, talents, and soul to you as a vessel for you to use in a way that you are pleased with.  I would say to God that I have no conception or understanding of why I would deserve such grace as is offered unto me for I surely do not deserve it by anything I have done.  I would say that I hope that, in my fleshly body and inadequacy, that I never got in the way of your ministry and never hindered Your Holy Spirit due to my own human fallacies.  

Hi GB,

 

Just to cut the waltz down to a two step -- what do you consider to be a false religion?  Are world religions, i.e., Islam, Buddhism, etc., false religions?

 

Just what do you consider cult religions?  Are Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc., cult religions?

 

Do you believe that New Age religions are compatible with the Christian faith?

 

Do you believe that God would have you refute false and cult religions?  Or, do you believe that it is okay to allow new Christians, babes in Christ -- and new seekers -- to be led astray by such false and cult teachings? 

 

Could you be comfortable knowing that someone you might have influenced toward belief in God -- instead went into a false or cult religion -- because you did not want to offend anyone by sharing the true Gospel with them?

 

These are important questions for all believers -- for they tell if we are willing to Go, Make Disciples, Baptize Them, Teach Them (Matthew 28:19-20).  They tell is we are willing to do as Jesus Christ instructs us and "be His witnesses" in all the world (Acts 1:8, Mark 16:15).  Are you willing? 

 

How do you answer these questions -- not just to impress other Religion Forum members -- but, as though you are answering these questions directly to God?

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Bill, here is the two step as you put it.  First step is you are hyper judgmental of people whether they are professed Christians or Atheist.   Step two;  What you perceive as defending against false gospels is deaf preaching your own gospel.  You have your set of beliefs and everyone else without exception that are wrong and therefore advancing a false religion.   You care not to hear what they say, what they ask, but just advancing your own interpretation of how you see things.

 

I will not entertain you with attempts to bring me into your rut by being in condemnation of others but I will answer your questions with a statement.   I believe there to be ONE TRUE and real God that is not only living but has no beginning and will have no end.  Is Eternal both before and after.  I believe This only true God determined a Judgment upon mankind according to mankind's actions and sins but also predetermined a way to escape the penalty of that Judgment in Christ Jesus who was God in human flesh but not conceived in the way other humans are and were.  I also believe that God's Holy Spirit is determined to be the way God relates and ministers unto mankind and is given upon mankind's decision to accept that sacrifice of Christ dying on the Cross shedding His Blood.  

 

I have chose to be a Christian because of a very personal, unique, and miraculous conviction by God's Holy Spirit confirming, at least to me, that God was God and legitimate.  

 

If you want to pronounce, God's, judgment on other religions and people and you feel this advances the cause of Christ then have at it.  

 

Third step:  You are totally inflexible when it comes to dialogs with people here.  We, Christians, are physical representatives of Christ and you really need to ask yourself what picture of Christ are you presenting?   One that seeks to address the Spiritual needs that all of us have or a harsh condemning judgmental figure that seeks not to involve people but dominate them.  Your approach, on this forum, is an Old Testament approach or Old Covenant approach where there is no personal relationship with God but God is some uncaring Judge that seeks vengeance upon those whom seek to find Him.  

 

If you feel and truly believe you are right and present Christ in the way Christ would want then show me, demonstrate to me, from Scripture anywhere that Christ interacted with those who were not His apostles or those who Believed in Him, in the way you are doing on this forum?   Show me where Christ did, as you say we should do, with respect to the lost world whether they are atheist, non-believers, or Muslims?  Once you show me that then we can talk about me answering your questions of your last post.

Good grief, Bill! What is it with you? Are you so set on your opinion being the only one to matter that you’re worried GB may look better & make more sense in our eyes than you do?  GB answered your questions, but you’re still not satisfied. What is it within you that you feel the need to belittle others with your constant questions as though they are wrong & you’re right?

 

I have a question for you, not that I expect an answer because that is something you just don’t do. Can you be comfortable knowing that you influenced  someone away from God rather than toward Him? Why would anyone want to be the hat wearing Christian that you are? Constant judgment, put downs, making fun of, no love/compassion…….is that what you truly believe God wants?

 

Proverbs 6:16-19 says “These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:  A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, A heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren".

 

Jesus said the first thing a Christian can do to be successful in getting along with each other is to guard our thoughts. Specifically, we need to be careful about making judgments of other people.

 

Matthew 7:1-2 says “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you”.

 

You miss the distinction between discernment & condemnation. You elevate fault finding to a ministry as if you are doing everyone here a favor.

I haven’t gotten the impression that GB is trying to impress anyone on this forum. He’s been straight & honest in how he feels & how he sees the Bible. He has one thing you don’t & that’s kindness, love & compassion for his fellow human being, saved or un-saved.

You could learn a lot from him if you would read his words with your heart & not your brain.

 

I can honestly say that his words have given me something to think about. You, Bill, are the one person on this forum that has hurt me, brought me to tears, & have made me want to run as far from God as my feet could carry me. Satan has used you against me but only because you have allowed him to do so.

 

I have no doubt that you have done the same to others here & some of those people that read but don’t post on this forum that you say you are trying to reach. I feel so very sorry for you.

 

 

 

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

The battle of the forum preacher wannabes.

***********************************

I'm very disappointed in you, Jenn, I thought we were friends. I'm not a wannabe preacher & have never tried to be. I give my opinion, & sometimes very blunt in that opinion, as are you. I will defend if I see someone attacked needlessly, as I have defended you in the past.

 

I'm confused about a lot of things, & have a lot of questions in my own mind. If the Bible is true, then I will hopefully find answers by asking questions & giving my opinion of it as if it were true.

 

I'm not one of those that can easily turn a blind eye to my raising in a Christian home. I wouldn't call asking questions & taking part in a discussion about religion as an indication that I wanted to be a preacher.

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

Talking about gb and bill. Why in the world would you think I meant you?

__________________________

Because your post was underneath my last post & you didn't indicate who it was meant for so I assumed it was meant for me too.

I'm sorry if I misunderstood.

No problem, I've posted that before after watching bill and gb post longgggggggggggg rambling verse filled posts. Bill should take his own advice and just "cut to the chase" so to speak. They could post the verse numbers but no, they have to copy and paste the entire verses.

Originally Posted by Unobtanium:

Best, of course they cannot explain the contridictions.  They've never studied them.  These aren't the kinds of things you learn in Sunday school.

I can almost guarantee you that none of them have ever heard of the "Q" gospel.  Most scholars agree that the gospels were hammed together from various sources who sort of, ummm, borrowed material from more ancient sources to come up with the fictional story of Jesus.That original author is called "Q," 

 

You should watch more Star Trek, Q has no interest in helping any of us.....

 

 

 

Originally Posted by I am the Fireman:

The Bible has no contridictions in it but only different peoples writing of what happened at a certain event.

Let's consider the terrible events that happened on 9/11. Several thousand people saw the planes as they crashed into the twin towers and I would just guess that if 10 of those thousand people sat down and wrote about what they saw their prospective would all be different. BUT, ultimately they would ALL say that TWO PLANES did indeed crash into the twin towers. Those areas in the Bible that you athiest call contridictions are merely different peoples accounts of what they say and ultimately they saw the same thing but only worded differently.  Grasping at straws aren't we?

I've always felt the same way.  As my grandpa used to say, sometimes you just have to 'faith' it.  

 

Salvation is a gift, there is nothing that a person can do to earn salvation but it is simply by the grace of God that we are saved. Once a person accepts the gift of salvation it is something that can never be taken from him(or her) but as with any gift it is something that can be thrown away or returned but that is a decision to be made by the individual.

While God would want us to do as many good works as we can, there is no amount of good works that can be done to save us,as I said above, it's a gift and the only condition is to accept Jesus and ask for salvation. You can reject Jesus and your salvation anytime you please but you don't have to worry it being taken from you.

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

A "gift"  offered with strings and conditions and horrible repercussions if you don't accept it. Was your god in the mob? Sure sounds like it, making you an offer you can't refuse.


I don't understand what the "strings and conditions" that you refer to could be?

quote:   Originally Posted by Jennifer Bestworking:

A "gift" offered with strings and conditions and horrible repercussions if you don't accept it.  Was your god in the mob?  Sure sounds like it, making you an offer you can't refuse.


Hi Jennifer,

 

Ephesians 2:8-9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."

 

As BFred asked, "Where are the 'strings and conditions' you mention?"

 

We see in this Scripture passage that salvation is a "free gift" from God.  We also see that no one can WORK for this gift.  Since we cannot WORK for the gift -- there obviously are no "strings and conditions" -- for those would constitute WORKs. 

 

Jennifer, might I suggest that you tried a taste of Christianity when you were younger -- but, because God did not dance to your tune -- you turned away before becoming a believer.   That is not unusual.  Many folks do that.

 

That is why both Billy Graham and Greg Laurie do not refer to those who come forward at a Crusade as converts.  They call them "inquirers."   Why?  Because, in coming forward out of emotion, or because a friend went forward -- or by attending church and Sunday school as a teenager -- does not mean that these folks are Christ Followers yet. 

 

It means that they are seeking, that they are "inquiring" -- that they have seen some of the Light -- but, have not yet made a full commitment to follow Jesus Christ.  So, many of these "inquirers" will turn back to following the world.

 

And, Jennifer, even if you had become involved in a weekly Bible study (which you have not indicated that you did) -- along with attending worship services and Sunday School as a teenager -- that does not mean that you had made the full commitment to follow Christ. 

 

You may believe that you did.  However, the fact that you are such a militant young atheist tells me that you did not.  And, being the militant young atheist tells me that you have a lot of resentment built up inside you toward God.  I have no idea why.  He did not leave you; you left Him -- before you crossed the bridge of salvation.  So, you cannot blame God.  He did not stop half way -- you did.

 

Jennifer, I realize that you will get angry over what I have written.  That, too, is part of being a militant young atheist -- you MUST always strike back.   Maybe, instead of striking back, instead of calling me names -- if you give serious thought to what I have suggested -- it could make a major difference in your life.  It surely is worth a try.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Jennifer, might I suggest that you tried a taste of Christianity when you were younger -- but, because God did not dance to your tune -- you turned away before becoming a believer. 

 

And, being the militant young atheist tells me that you have a lot of resentment built up inside you toward God.

 

Jennifer, I realize that you will get angry over what I have written.  That, too, is part of being a militant young atheist -- you MUST always strike back. 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------And bill, I don't "suggest" that as usual you don't know what you're talking about, I'm telling you that you don't.  I don't harbor resentment against things that don't exist such as your god. I've told you and others it's not your god, it's the insane and horrible things you do to others in the name of that god that I hate. I know you don't like hearing that truth but that is the way it is. The "anger" you feel is not for anything you write truthfully, if you ever do write truthfully, the anger is about the false information and rewritten history you want to feed to people. "See my post on the other thread called See you at the pole."

 When you start posting truthfully, stop making false claims and never correcting them, when you stop attacking people of other beliefs or non-beliefs, when you answer questions you're ask instead of disappearing or running to make another thread to divert the attention from you, when you stop using that ancient book of fables to attack people for their lifestyles, when you stop acting like an idiot, such as insinuating that people are g a y because they won't go along with your attacks on g a y s, when you stop claiming people want to "sin" or live a  "sinful" life because they don't "accept" your god, when you stop claiming that people never believed in the first place, in other words bill, if you weren't a miserable judgemental sob, then maybe we could talk.

Fred, just what I said. Either accept the gift, use it only as your god says, or suffer horrible repercussions. Come to my house fred, let me offer you a gift that you are "free" to turn down. Take it, use it only as I say you can, and you'll be a happy little camper for the rest of your life. Turn it down, or use it as you see fit, after all it was a gift, and I will beat you with a baseball bat. Some "gift" eh?

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

Fred, just what I said. Either accept the gift, use it only as your god says, or suffer horrible repercussions. Come to my house fred, let me offer you a gift that you are "free" to turn down. Take it, use it only as I say you can, and you'll be a happy little camper for the rest of your life. Turn it down, or use it as you see fit, after all it was a gift, and I will beat you with a baseball bat. Some "gift" eh?

God would not beat us with a baseball bat for not accepting the gifts he offers, declining the salvation he offers just means that you would not be able to come to his "house" (Heaven) after this life.

I do not understand the "use it as he says" part. If you are making reference to having to accept Jesus and ask to receive the gift then that is true, outside of that I don't think there are any other conditions. Although God does spell out the basics of how he wants us to live our lives, he does not expect us to live up to everything he wants us to do or not do, the gift is completely out of grace, not by how much we excell or fail at following his will.

 

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

The "use it as he says" is obvious. Use it worship him. True, he wouldn't beat you with a bat, he'd have way more horrible and gruesome ways to deal with you.


If the strings are just to worship him then what's the big problem with that? I mean he is God, he made all of us including you and your family, he created heaven & earth, and every other naturally occuring thing. With all that considered then I don't think worshiping him would be too much to ask or to at least just show some respect and gratitude for all he has done for us. If by horrible and gruesome you mean hell, it is not God that sends anyone to hell. God has the gates to heaven wide open with an invitation to anyone who wants it but he's not going to force you to come and he's not going to force you to worship him, I can assure you that if any human in hell could be inteviewed that none would be able to truthfully say that it was God who took them there.

Nope, Once saved always saved is contrary to the Gospel- it makes the people who believe it believe they are protected from sin, but, we all have free will. So the "saved" is free to sin just as much as the next guy. 

This is an age-old debate- I highly doubt that you will convince anyone to "switch camps". I am a Christian, solid in my beliefs. However I cannot tell you that tomorrow I may not sin gravely, and fall out of a state of grace. 

It might happen. Probably not, because I have a 12 hour shift, lol, but you never know. 

In my opinion, OSAS is just another "feel good" theology that lets people think they are better than others. 

Being Catholic, I can't tell you how many people have said "oooh,  you're Catholic- are you saved?" 
To which my reply is, and always will be this:
"I have been saved, I am being saved, and, God willing, will be saved when I depart this life". 



hey, If it makes you feel better to believe that you can't fall from Christ's friendship, good on ya. But we all know that even His disciples betrayed Him. Something tells me that todays churches probably can't be more convincing than Jesus Himself...

But think twice before declaring to the world that "OSAS" is true- you just might lead someone into a false sense of security. 

In my opinion, it is clearly smarter to err on the side of caution. Salvation and a relationship with God is something that has to be cultivated and nurtured: It's not just a "poof" one time deal. 

Food for thought-

Cheers, V

 

Welcome Back Vee,  glad to know you are alright and doing fine.  Naturally you realize there are believers all over the spectrum with respect to salvation and losing or retaining it, as you alluded to, with beliefs about salvation and Eternal Security.  No trap or trick question, intended here, but as someone who does believe differently I am curious, from your perspective or the perspective of your Church;


At what point does one lose their salvation?   In other words how does one know they reach that point?  Up to what point can one sin and still retain salvation and at what point or line does one cross where you lose your salvation?

 

I have to admit I'm not that familiar with the Catholic Church's position on that doctrine however I do think I remember at least two distinctions of sin from my High School days and those being Mortal and Venial Sins.  Anyway I hope that's not too long of a request I'm just trying to better understand different people's/Churches doctrinal teachings regarding Salvation.   I also realize I could look it up on the web, and may cheat and do just that before you answer, but thought you might could put it more concisely.

 

If you would rather not get too deeply involved in it or want to ease your way back into the forum I'll understand if you prefer to delay answering but thanks either way.

Originally Posted by vplee123:

PS Fred, I agree with you that Salvation is a "gift"- what I do not agree with is that it is a "one time deal". 

Just clarifying.... 

------------------------------------

OSAS has been done many times and Billie knows it's not Biblical.

What Bible verses support it?

 

.

GBRK, 

I believe that our salvation is not "complete" until we leave this earth. Every second, every action before that time counts. 

I believe that we can turn away from God. We could say our Salvation prayer, or whatever it is called (with all due respect, please- i just don't know it" and accept Jesus as our Saviour. But then we could, years down the road, reject Him. We could fall from grace- in sin, in our hearts, in our compassion, etc.

My best example is this; Like He says "Depart from me, I never knew you", to people who had been sharing His Word, and devoted their lives to Him. 

I consider that above quote to be evidence that God does in fact refuse salvation to a presumed Christian. 

Hope that answers your question.  

Originally Posted by vplee123:

PS Fred, I agree with you that Salvation is a "gift"- what I do not agree with is that it is a "one time deal". 

Just clarifying.... 

From reading past posts (debates between You & Bill), our opinions on the subject are a little different but I don't believe OSAS either. I do not believe that God would ever take away our gift of salvation but I do believe that we can still reject God and our salvation.

Although I do not think of being saved as a license to sin, I also believe that with each passing sin (major or minor (if there is such a thing)) that dying between the batch of sins and confessing the sins will not get me denied at Heaven's Gate.

Bill Gray's fatally-flawed theology:

 

Bill says, above: 

 

"We see in this Scripture passage that salvation is a "free gift" from God.  We also see that no one can WORK for this gift.  Since we cannot WORK for the gift -- there obviously are no "strings and conditions" -- for those would constitute WORKs."

 

Yet Bill believes that a person must "take Jesus as his Savior" in order to be saved.  This means that a person who does not "take Jesus as his Savior" will be lost. It is therefore axiomatic and indis****ble that "take(ing] Jesus as one's personal savior" is a condition of salvation, in Bill's theology.  Thus, according to Bill's "logic," "take[ing] Jesus as one's personal Savior," being a condition of salvation, is a "WORK."

 

Bill confuses meritorious works of man with the salvific work of God.  Baptism, according to Bill, is a "work" and is thus not essential to the remission of sins and salvation.  The error of that interpretation is that baptism is NOT a meritorious work of man, earning salvation; it is a work of God, in that it is the place and event He appoints where the lost sinner comes into contact with the redeeming death and blood of Jesus Christ.  That concept is clearly and powerfully taught in Romans 6:1-11.

 

The first sinners to whom the gospel was preached, in Acts chapter 2, clearly understood that they were lost, the apostle Peter having powerfully indicted them for the death of Jesus Christ.   In anguish of spirit, they asked, "Man and brethren, what shall we do?"  Did that inspired apostle tell them to "take Jesus as your Savior" or to "say the sinner's prayer"?  No way.  He told them to "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of sins." Why will not Bill and the host of evangelical preachers and teachers with whom he identifies, tell lost sinners the same thing that Peter told those lost sinners long ago?

 

Note also that these sinners were told to "REPENT." Had they not repented, would they have been saved? Clearly not.  Thus, repentance constitutes another condition.

 

No, Bill, salvation is not unconditional in the manner in which you erroneously construe it.  There clearly are conditions, as I have clearly shown above, and these conditions are not meritorious works earning salvation, but they are essential!

 

We are indeed saved by the grace of God, but that grace is not unconditional; otherwise no one would be required to do anything in order to be saved.  That concept is called "universalism," Bill. Surely you do not wish to throw in with that notion!

 

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