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quote:

Hi Miami,

How do you know He hasn't? Can you personally prove that God has NOT healed an amputee?

You are always talking about proof -- give me verifiable proof this has NOT happened.

The Bible tells me that Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead. The Bible tells me that Jesus raised the widow's son from the dead. The Bible tells me that Jesus healed the centurion's servant. The Bible tells me that Jesus healed the blind. The Bible tells me that Jesus healed the lepers. The Bible tells me that Jesus healed the withered hand. The Bible tells me that Jesus healed the man who was so sick he could not walk; yet he picked up his pallet and walked home.

I believe the Bible. You CANNOT disprove the Bible.

Oh, you can make claims about the Bible; it is a book of myths, etc. -- but, you CANNOT give us verifiable proof that this is true -- only claims.

Therefore, secularism and atheism are just blowing smoke up each other's rear.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill




Classic churchy logic. The Bible is infallible and you must try to disprove my negative.

And. NashBama, are you a morally charged moderator? Are you the PC police? I did not know it was against most peoples' sensibilities to have a civil, mostly rational debate on a sensitive issue without being considered an "a-hole". If one is so sensitive that they cannot read of others beliefs, than perhaps they should hole thmselves up in a monestary somewhere. Until then try to review the first amendment. There will be a test.
Last edited by dlg2
dlg...I can only "prove" my own healing miracles. I had scoliosis. My back was in the shape of an "S". I was healed after prayer and when my husband saw my back when we went to bed that night,he shouted "Your back is straight!" I had suffered horribly from back pain and my back going out. I have never had a pain since. The X-rays prove it is true. I also had mitral valve prolapse which is a defect of the mitral valve of the heart. Had to take meds all the time to keep from getting an infection around my heart. It was also healed. When I went to a heart specialist later he could understand why the echocardiagram showed I had a "perfect heart" nothing wrong. He said I had a heart of a twenty-yr-old. I was 48 at the time. I was also healed from arthritis..had to go to the hospital for therapies. GONE!! I could go on and on. I have recently been healed from MS (multiple sclerosis) The doctor said I should be in a wheelchair by now...hasn't happened. Feel great!
quote:

Posted 30 July 2008 01:27 PM Hide Post
dlg...I can only "prove" my own healing miracles. I had scoliosis. My back was in the shape of an "S". I was healed after prayer and when my husband saw my back when we went to bed that night,he shouted "Your back is straight!" I had suffered horribly from back pain and my back going out. I have never had a pain since. The X-rays prove it is true. I also had mitral valve prolapse which is a defect of the mitral valve of the heart. Had to take meds all the time to keep from getting an infection around my heart. It was also healed. When I went to a heart specialist later he could understand why the echocardiagram showed I had a "perfect heart" nothing wrong. He said I had a heart of a twenty-yr-old. I was 48 at the time. I was also healed from arthritis..had to go to the hospital for therapies. GONE!! I could go on and on. I have recently been healed from MS (multiple sclerosis) The doctor said I should be in a wheelchair by now...hasn't


I am glad you are feeling better.

Those conditions lend themselves to be resolved by diet, exercise, meds, possibly a chirpractor. I don't think many would consider those miraculous events. The body if treated well and given the right foods has an amazing ability to heal itself.

Second, your earlier posts concerns regrowth of limbs which indeed would be miraculous. Are those examples purposely misleading hyperbole or unreaserched anectdotes you inserted to strenghten your point at the expense of the truth?
dlg...I went to a chiropractor 3 times a week for years and he never helped me. In a matter of seconds my back was straightened with no one touching me..explain that!! I haven't been to a chiropractor since 1984 (Thank God!) But it's not important to me if you believe it or not. I know..and I know who is responsible. God sent me a diet to get rid of the arthritis, that's true. But the others can only be described as MIRACLES...meds cannot heal a misformed valve or severely twisted spine.
dlg...by the way, I never tood meds for the MS. It costs $2,000 a month for shots and insurance only covered a fraction of that cost. So, I just suffered without it. For a while couldn't lift a glass without dropping it. Legs collapsing when I walked..lots of falls. on and on...but (Thank God) that's over.
quote:
Originally posted by dlg2:
quote:

Posted 30 July 2008 01:27 PM Hide Post
dlg...I can only "prove" my own healing miracles. I had scoliosis. My back was in the shape of an "S". I was healed after prayer and when my husband saw my back when we went to bed that night,he shouted "Your back is straight!" I had suffered horribly from back pain and my back going out. I have never had a pain since. The X-rays prove it is true. I also had mitral valve prolapse which is a defect of the mitral valve of the heart. Had to take meds all the time to keep from getting an infection around my heart. It was also healed. When I went to a heart specialist later he could understand why the echocardiagram showed I had a "perfect heart" nothing wrong. He said I had a heart of a twenty-yr-old. I was 48 at the time. I was also healed from arthritis..had to go to the hospital for therapies. GONE!! I could go on and on. I have recently been healed from MS (multiple sclerosis) The doctor said I should be in a wheelchair by now...hasn't


I am glad you are feeling better.

Those conditions lend themselves to be resolved by diet, exercise, meds, possibly a chirpractor. I don't think many would consider those miraculous events. The body if treated well and given the right foods has an amazing ability to heal itself.

Second, your earlier posts concerns regrowth of limbs which indeed would be miraculous. Are those examples purposely misleading hyperbole or unreaserched anectdotes you inserted to strenghten your point at the expense of the truth?


Scoliosis does not cure itself in a few minutes. Don't care how many vegetables you eat or who your chiropractor is. After visiting Monet's website, I discovered that I know her personnally. Everything she is saying regarding herself is 100% true.

I myself have seen miraculous healings as well. I've seen broken bones instaneously mended only a day after being broken. A lumberjack friend of mine broke his arm while on the job and he came to church to be prayed for. He had the cast off the next day and was completely healed and back to work.

Another friend of mine had lower back disk problems. He was praying in church and felt heat going up and down his spine for several minutes. Never had a problem with his back since.

These are not examples of a recovery type healing, but a sudden miraculous healing.
quote:
I respect your atheism and your views that there is no God, I'm not here to change that. My point to you and others on here is to quit being an a-hole about it because you never know who's reading it.


Puh-lease.

If we follow your logic, we would never be able to have any discussions about any religions topic. After all, we all believe different things.

It's okay if you don't' have an answer for the question posed here, Nash. It was a respectful question designed to elicit stimulating conversation. If you or anyone else does not like what they see, then BLOCK ME.

On the other hand, if you are capable of posting a rational response to my original question, please surprise me by doing so.
quote:
If we follow your logic, we would never be able to have any discussions about any religions topic. After all, we all believe different things.

It's okay if you don't' have an answer for the question posed here, Nash. It was a respectful question designed to elicit stimulating conversation. If you or anyone else does not like what they see, then BLOCK ME.

On the other hand, if you are capable of posting a rational response to my original question, please surprise me by doing so.


I didn't say stop discussing religion, I said we should be more respectful. Big difference. There is a saying in television that being on camera is the same as being invited into someone's home and you should always show the same respect. The same can be said for these forums. If you would be hurtful to say something to a person's face, then it would be just as hurtful to post it here.

As for your question, I answered it specifically in the last post. You have to read past the first paragraph.
I am not doubting you got better, but the body can heal itself. Most of those conditions are caused by inflammation within the body. Aspartame poisoning can create MS symptoms, and arthritis. The antibiotics may have resolved the damaged valve if caused by an infecton. I am an OR nurse, I have seen many cases of diseases improve on their own against conventional medical wisdom. Countless cases of tumors that have shrunk some completely gone, by the body, lupus, MS, arthritis, heart disease, diabetes, etc... In most cases the patients all considered it a miracle, and to them it was. But that is how our body's work. There are countless mechanisms to fight disease if the body is not weakened by drugs, chemicals, bad foods, smoking, artificial ingredients etc... My point is that improbable does not mean that it had to be god. For you to have 4 or 5 miralces bestowed upon you must make you about the holiest person alive. Or you changed your diet and lifestyle and your body repaired much damage done itself. Which sounds more plausible?

You have also failed to explain the limbs comment, lie or hyperbole?
quote:
Originally posted by dlg2:
I am not doubting you got better, but the body can heal itself. Most of those conditions are caused by inflammation within the body. Aspartame poisoning can create MS symptoms, and arthritis. The antibiotics may have resolved the damaged valve if caused by an infecton. I am an OR nurse, I have seen many cases of diseases improve on their own against conventional medical wisdom. Countless cases of tumors that have shrunk some completely gone, by the body, lupus, MS, arthritis, heart disease, diabetes, etc... In most cases the patients all considered it a miracle, and to them it was. But that is how our body's work. There are countless mechanisms to fight disease if the body is not weakened by drugs, chemicals, bad foods, smoking, artificial ingredients etc... My point is that improbable does not mean that it had to be god. For you to have 4 or 5 miralces bestowed upon you must make you about the holiest person alive. Or you changed your diet and lifestyle and your body repaired much damage done itself. Which sounds more plausible?

You have also failed to explain the limbs comment, lie or hyperbole?


You changed the subject. The reason she was healed is because of the grace of God.
I find it sad as well as absurd that in this 21st century some still believe bronze age myths like religions. Live and let live I guess. Anyone here could do with a careful read of Christopher Hitchen's book "God is Not Great, how Religion Poisons Everything". This is one of the best books written in many years on the subject. Peace
quote:
Posted 30 July 2008 02:10 PM Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by dlg2:
I am not doubting you got better, but the body can heal itself. Most of those conditions are caused by inflammation within the body. Aspartame poisoning can create MS symptoms, and arthritis. The antibiotics may have resolved the damaged valve if caused by an infecton. I am an OR nurse, I have seen many cases of diseases improve on their own against conventional medical wisdom. Countless cases of tumors that have shrunk some completely gone, by the body, lupus, MS, arthritis, heart disease, diabetes, etc... In most cases the patients all considered it a miracle, and to them it was. But that is how our body's work. There are countless mechanisms to fight disease if the body is not weakened by drugs, chemicals, bad foods, smoking, artificial ingredients etc... My point is that improbable does not mean that it had to be god. For you to have 4 or 5 miralces bestowed upon you must make you about the holiest person alive. Or you changed your diet and lifestyle and your body repaired much damage done itself. Which sounds more plausible?

You have also failed to explain the limbs comment, lie or hyperbole?


You changed the subject. The reason she was healed is because of the grace of God.


You specifically asked if it wasn't a miracle than what. I answered that questions as best as possible without her medical records. What topic was changed? My original question to her was to back up her statements that limbs were re-grown which after a number of posts she has refused to answer. I can only suspect that she was caught in an attempt to make up crap to try to prove an invalid point.
quote:
Originally posted by Monet:
Fish...an example...one time sitting in church minding my own business engrossed in a sermon, God spoke to me and told me to give $1,000 to some Venezuelans to help build a church. I looked around, didn't know where that came from; I was a single mom with little money, but knew His voice. Didn't know anything about the church either..but 2 wks later the pastor from a Venezuelan church showed up..(wow!) I talked to him for 4 hrs before I said the Lord told me to give you $1,000...and before I could say.."but I don't have $1,000 to give"...he was saying "thank you, Phyllis, thank you so much!!!" Muchas gracias..what could I do but write him a check...I tried to beat the check to the bank with an income tax refund before it bounced. To make a long story even longer...when before I was always short on money before..somehow, miraculously, I always had an extra $1,000 in my banck account at the end of the month (After I paid the bills) From then on it grew and grew. I paid off my house and car..All I can say is..it was God! Believe it or not, but I live it. He has always taken care of me...how can I not believe???


What a wonderful testimony! It's a fact, you can't outgive God!
quote:
Originally posted by dlg2:
I am not doubting you got better, but the body can heal itself. Most of those conditions are caused by inflammation within the body. Aspartame poisoning can create MS symptoms, and arthritis. The antibiotics may have resolved the damaged valve if caused by an infecton. I am an OR nurse, I have seen many cases of diseases improve on their own against conventional medical wisdom. Countless cases of tumors that have shrunk some completely gone, by the body, lupus, MS, arthritis, heart disease, diabetes, etc... In most cases the patients all considered it a miracle, and to them it was. But that is how our body's work. There are countless mechanisms to fight disease if the body is not weakened by drugs, chemicals, bad foods, smoking, artificial ingredients etc... My point is that improbable does not mean that it had to be god. For you to have 4 or 5 miralces bestowed upon you must make you about the holiest person alive. Or you changed your diet and lifestyle and your body repaired much damage done itself. Which sounds more plausible?

You have also failed to explain the limbs comment, lie or hyperbole?


===============================================================================================================

How did the body come about being able to do all these things you just mentioned?
If what you said was "completely true" then why are you (a nurse) and doctors needed for such ailments?

Mind you and any other person, I am not questioning the reasoning for God to be in existance concerning this! I am questing the remarks of dlg2
Back on Main Point. One single thing that religion can do that secularism cannot.

1. Religion can kill in the name of God, thereby alleviating themselves of any sort of guilt or responsibility for the deaths and destruction. Secularist would be held accountable and seen as they are as ruthless mind-contolling murderers, if they tried that same crap.

2. Religion is able to their god and the bible to justify racism and intolerance. A secularist wouldn't have such a convenient excuse. Faith based initiatives have reversed many of the gains in the containment of AIDS in Sub-Saharan Africa. Non-church controlled NGO's had succeeded in limiting the spread of the disease. Condoms and educational programs had curtailed the epdiemic. When Bush signed off on faith based initiatives (church and state?) the funds were cut diverted to church led groups who ended condoms programs instead focusing solely on abstinence. The spread of AIDS is again increasing.

3. Religion can absolve stupidity and lack of critical thinking. A secularist would just be stupid and not be able to use the excuse , that god runs their life, all things through god.

4. The churchies can use the bible to justify the death penalty and on the other hand abhore abortion. The churchies are also able to absolve themselves on any guilt for neglecting the mother and the child after it is born. There is no commandment to care for people.

5. The churchies can use their religion and bible to use, Faith or Belief as the answer to any religion question.

6. The chuchies are able to use their numbers to control the republican party and vise versa with getting out the vote uncontitutional gay initiatives.

7. Churchies are able to build huge evangelical corporate money-making machines, to actually do little good, and the kicker is that they don't have to pay taxes on it.

More as they come me.
quote:
God sent me a diet to get rid of the arthritis, that's true.


My dear, if you are willing to believe that the creator of the universe took time to write down a diet plan and beamed to you via invisible brain waves, there is no way anyone could convince you that you probably didn't have scoliosis to begin with.

Me? I "cured" my MVP with exercise. I also once grew a completely new appendage called "fingernail." Again, no help from the Almighty at all as far as I know.
quote:
How did the body come about being able to do all these things you just mentioned?
If what you said was "completely true" then why are you (a nurse) and doctors needed for such ailments?

Mind you and any other person, I am not questioning the reasoning for God to be in existance concerning this! I am questing the oratory of dlg2


- Natural Selection. Those whose bodies were less able to fight of disease died and could not pass on their genes.

- If holistic medical practices, healthy organic diets, exercise were followed by most people there would not need to be as nearly as large of a medical industry as there is. Doctors are trained to fight symptoms and disease not to treat people.
quote:
Originally posted by GoFish:
quote:
God sent me a diet to get rid of the arthritis, that's true.


My dear, if you are willing to believe that the creator of the universe took time to write down a diet plan and beamed to you via invisible brain waves, there is no way anyone could convince you that you probably didn't have scoliosis to begin with.

Me? I "cured" my MVP with exercise. I also once grew a completely new appendage called "fingernail." Again, no help from the Almighty at all as far as I know.



Well, GF, you just proved that ya'll really don't want proof after all. I gave you solid proof and you shoot it down. "proof" came from the doctors..not my imagination. When you have confidence in what you know is true, you don't have to have someone elses stamp of approval.
quote:
God sent me a diet to get rid of the arthritis, that's true.


GF, I know you will shoot this down..but, I had prayed for a cure & the same day walked by a mound of reduced for quick sale books at Kmart, and there was a book by a chinese doctor saying he had a diet for arthritis..I read it, did the diet, found out I was allergic to milk, orange juice, and other acidy foods. That's nothing to you..but, to me, it was wonderful not to have my knees blown up like balloons and to be able to walk again. Sure, sure, anyone could have done that...but what are the chances a weird book would just happen along in a huge pile when I needed it...I believe in daily small miracles, too.
quote:
Originally posted by dlg2:
quote:
How did the body come about being able to do all these things you just mentioned?
If what you said was "completely true" then why are you (a nurse) and doctors needed for such ailments?

Mind you and any other person, I am not questioning the reasoning for God to be in existance concerning this! I am questing the verbiage of dlg2


===============================================================================================================

DLG2 You say- Natural Selection. Those whose bodies were less able to fight off disease died and could not pass on their genes.

Not sure what you have tried to explain here. If I am getting you right, Are you saying the same gene that my father has, and his father before him which caused both of them to die with a heart murmur is going to cause them to die before they pass it on to me who is 32 years old? OH wait but they both lived and now so do I even though according to you. Someone with defects in their bodies less able will die before they pass on their genes. OH wait both of them did die and came back to life with out the aide of any doctor! Now how did that happen?

==============================================================================================================

DLG2 you say - If holistic medical practices, healthy organic diets, exercise were followed by most people there would not need to be as nearly as large of a medical industry as there is. Doctors are trained to fight symptoms and disease not to treat people.


I have one question for you. What kind of treatment do Doctors use on cancer patients?
quote:
Originally posted by dlg2:
quote:

Hi Miami,

How do you know He hasn't? Can you personally prove that God has NOT healed an amputee?

You are always talking about proof -- give me verifiable proof this has NOT happened.

The Bible tells me that Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead. The Bible tells me that Jesus raised the widow's son from the dead. The Bible tells me that Jesus healed the centurion's servant. The Bible tells me that Jesus healed the blind. The Bible tells me that Jesus healed the lepers. The Bible tells me that Jesus healed the withered hand. The Bible tells me that Jesus healed the man who was so sick he could not walk; yet he picked up his pallet and walked home.

I believe the Bible. You CANNOT disprove the Bible.

Oh, you can make claims about the Bible; it is a book of myths, etc. -- but, you CANNOT give us verifiable proof that this is true -- only claims.

Therefore, secularism and atheism are just blowing smoke up each other's rear.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill




Classic churchy logic. The Bible is infallible and you must try to disprove my negative.
Hi DLG,

And the response you have given is the typical atheistic spin, or sleight of hand -- take the focus off your inability to disprove anything I stated -- and attempt to put doubt on the Bible.

Sorry, DLG, no cigar. Either you can prove that what I said is wrong -- or you CANNOT. Which is it? No spin; no sleight of hand; no secular atheistic waffling -- either prove it is wrong; or admit that you CANNOT. Simple.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
I have one question for you. What kind of treatment do Doctors use on cancer patients?


Chemo, radiation, surgery (standard, laser, cryo), some experimental viral therapies. But what you don't understand is that, except for surgery those treatments weaken the cancer in general while the body "dissolves" the abnormal cells. Cancer less likely to develope in a 'healthy' person. the body produces cancer specific antibodies and WBC's to attack the abnormal cells before cancer developes. Aside from genetics the main causes of cancer are all preventable. Diet, exposure to carcinogens, smoking, inactivity, stress can increase odds of cancer by impairing immunity, limit sun .... I have seen dozens of people who have drastically alter their lifestyle and have
"cured" themselves of some sorts of cancer, some types of cancer are conducie to this and others aren't. Encapsulate cancers, brain cancers, metastati and rapid proliferating cancers, etc... are hard to treat regardless of the method.
[quote}
Classic churchy logic. The Bible is infallible and you must try to disprove my negative.

Hi DLG,

And the response you have given is the typical atheistic spin, or sleight of hand -- take the focus off your inability to disprove anything I stated -- and attempt to put doubt on the Bible.

Sorry, DLG, no cigar. Either you can prove that what I said is wrong -- or you CANNOT. Which is it? No spin; no sleight of hand; no secular atheistic waffling -- either prove it is wrong; or admit that you CANNOT. Simple.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill [/quote]


quote:


Hi Miami,

How do you know He hasn't? Can you personally prove that God has NOT healed an amputee?

You are always talking about proof -- give me verifiable proof this has NOT happened.

The Bible tells me that Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead. The Bible tells me that Jesus raised the widow's son from the dead. The Bible tells me that Jesus healed the centurion's servant. The Bible tells me that Jesus healed the blind. The Bible tells me that Jesus healed the lepers. The Bible tells me that Jesus healed the withered hand. The Bible tells me that Jesus healed the man who was so sick he could not walk; yet he picked up his pallet and walked home.

I believe the Bible. You CANNOT disprove the Bible.

Oh, you can make claims about the Bible; it is a book of myths, etc. -- but, you CANNOT give us verifiable proof that this is true -- only claims.

Therefore, secularism and atheism are just blowing smoke up each other's rear.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill


I am new to this board but have been on many others. Maybe I am mistaken in thinking that when one makes an assertion it is HIS/HERS burden to prove that assertion. Not to just make an uncited debatable comment, declare its validity and then require others to disprove it.

"How do you know He hasn't? Can you personally prove that God has NOT healed an amputee? "

This is absurd. One cannot have reasonably educated worthwhile debate in this fashion. It is logic like this that has perpetuated the scientology farce. If one makes an wild-ass crazy statement to reinforce their point it is generally their responsibility to provide some sort of proof.

I claim the Flying Spaghetti Monster, spit out meatballs that formed in to the planets, and that at the center of the earth is a chessy gooey mass. Now it is your responsibilty to dissprove it. Go.
quote:
Originally posted by Monet:
Fish...an example...one time sitting in church minding my own business engrossed in a sermon, God spoke to me and told me to give $1,000 to some Venezuelans to help build a church. I looked around, didn't know where that came from; I was a single mom with little money, but knew His voice. Didn't know anything about the church either..but 2 wks later the pastor from a Venezuelan church showed up..(wow!) I talked to him for 4 hrs before I said the Lord told me to give you $1,000...and before I could say.."but I don't have $1,000 to give"...he was saying "thank you, Phyllis, thank you so much!!!" Muchas gracias..what could I do but write him a check...I tried to beat the check to the bank with an income tax refund before it bounced. To make a long story even longer...when before I was always short on money before..somehow, miraculously, I always had an extra $1,000 in my banck account at the end of the month (After I paid the bills) From then on it grew and grew. I paid off my house and car..All I can say is..it was God! Believe it or not, but I live it. He has always taken care of me...how can I not believe???


i have very similar testimonies Monet. God is Amazing!!
i have very similar testimonies Monet. God is Amazing!![/QUOTE]

He is pretty awesome. I could write several books about my experiences. Also, my dad actually died, had an out of body experience, and came back to life. He was a crusty old guy that hadn't been in church most of my life. He became a believer after that. I had prayed that God do whatever it took to turn him around..and unfortunately it took a heart attack and almost dying. I try not to pray that any more...only in dire emergencies.
quote:
You CANNOT disprove the Bible.


There are multiple quotes in the bible declaring that the earth is flat and that the sun rotates around it. The creator I am sure would know this to be incorrect. These passages were the cause for the excommunication of Galileo who proved it inaccurate.

"Western Christian biblical references Psalm 93:1, Psalm 96:10, and 1 Chronicles 16:30 include text stating that "the world is firmly established, it cannot be moved." In the same tradition, Psalm 104:5 says, "the LORD set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved." Further, Ecclesiastes 1:5 states that "And the sun rises and sets and returns to its place, etc."

It would be impossible to cover every montain on earth with 40 days of rains. Where did all of the water come from and where did it all go?

The ark would have to be so unfathomably large to be seaworthy with the technology available then. Animals from South America and Australia could not have gotten to the ark. The carnivores would have starved or wiped out alot of species.

The Earth is most assuredly older than the bible states, which I believe is 6,000-7,000 years old. This would contradict most fields of science.

Jesus prophesied that the second coming would occur during the lifetime of his followers.

For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. Matt 16:27-28 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come. Matthew 10:23 (see also Matt 24:29-35, Mark 13:30-31, Mark 9:1, Luke 9:27, John 21:22, Matthew 26:64, Mark 14:62)



Leviticus 11:20-23 inaccurately describes locusts, grasshoppers, beetles, and crickets as four-legged creatures.

Deuteronomy 14:7 also incorrectly described hares and rock badgers as cud-chewers.

Proverbs 6:6-8 described the ant as an industrious creature, "which having no chief, overseer, or ruler provides her bread in the summer, and gathers her food in harvest."

If the bible was written by the grace of God, HE WAS WRONG.

In Matthew 27:3-8, Judas returns the bribe he has been given for handing over Jesus, throwing the money into the temple before he hangs himself. The temple priests, unwilling to return the defiled money to the treasury,[39] use it instead to buy a field known as the Potter's Field, as a plot in which to bury strangers. In Acts 1:18, there is no mention of Judas returning the money, and his death is attributed to falling over in this field and his intestines burst out.

Raymond E. Brown puts this forward as an example of an obvious contradiction: "Luke's account of the death of Judas in Acts 1:18 is scarcely reconcilable with Matt 27:3-10."[40] Various attempts at harmonization have been tried since ancient times,[41] although Charles H. Talbert concludes that these are unsuccessful.[42]

Again, if inspired by god, why would there be inconsistencies? If there are some provable inconsistencies how can you declare anything in it is 100% accurate?

And finally:

Most of the scriptural requirements concerning the Messiah, what he will do, and what will be done during his reign are located in the Book of Isaiah, although requirements are mentioned by other prophets as well.

The Sanhedrin will be re-established (Isaiah 1:26)
Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance. (Isaiah 2:4)
The whole world will worship the One God of Israel (Isaiah 2:17)
He will be descended from King David (Isaiah 11:1) via Solomon (1 Chronicles 22:8-10, 2 Chronicles 7:18)
The Moshiach will be a man of this world, an observant Jew with "fear of God" (Isaiah 11:2)
Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership (Isaiah 11:4)
Knowledge of God will fill the world (Isaiah 11:9)
He will include and attract people from all cultures and nations (Isaiah 11:10)
All Israelites will be returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12)
Death will be swallowed up forever (Isaiah 25:8)
There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:8)
All of the dead will rise again (Isaiah 26:19)
The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11)
He will be a messenger of peace (Isaiah 52:7)
Nations will end up recognizing the wrongs they did to Israel (Isaiah 52:13-53:5)
The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23)
The ruined cities of Israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55)
Weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9)
The Temple will be rebuilt resuming many of the suspended mitzvot (Ezekiel 40)
He will then perfect the entire world to serve God together (Zephaniah 3:9)
Jews will know the Torah without study (Jeremiah 31:33)[3]
He will give you all the worthy desires of your heart (Psalms 37:4)
He will take the barren land and make it abundant and fruitful (Isaiah 51:3, Amos 9:13-15, Ezekiel 36:29-30, Isaiah 11:6-9)

Most of these did not happen. According to the old testament these events would signify the original coming of the messiah. Since most did not occur, Jesus did not fulfill most of the prophecies of the messiah.

I will anxiously await your post on how it doesn't matter and one needs Faith and Belief.
quote:
Sorry, DLG, no cigar. Either you can prove that what I said is wrong -- or you CANNOT.


Bill,

We have been over this time and again but I'll say it again. Perhaps someone else will learn something from it:

YOU CANNOT DISPROVE A NEGATIVE.

For instance, you cannot prove (or disprove) that an invisible space alien is not sitting on my shoulder dictating these very words. By the very same logic, we cannot prove that god did not heal an amputee. In fact, I can say with great confidence that the evidence indicates that god does not heal amputees. Wonder why he hats them so?

Buy, hey (getting back to the original question) if that is true, that certainly WOULD be something that god could do that secularism cannot. Let us see the evidence, Bill. I need pictures and medical expert testimony among other proofs. Something other than, "I, bill Gray, prophet SAY so!"

Show us the money.
quote:
Posted 30 July 2008 04:34 PM Hide Post
I've read the entire Bible and never read that the earth is flat. It does mention people coming from the 4 corners of the earth, which I interpret as North,south,east and west. I think there was just some bad interpretation.


What about the Sun rotating around the Earth and that the Earth is immobile?
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Posted 30 July 2008 04:41 PM Hide Post
You forget, dlg, that when Noah and his sons built the art they had GOD's technology...hmm
Have you forgotten the tsunami in Sre Lanka?
Didn't take any rain to wipe out 100's of thousands of people pretty quick..I think God's IQ is a little bit higher than yours.


The tsunami did not cover every mountain on earth. Where would the rain come from to flood the entire earth, high enough to cover every mountain as the bible states? That tsunami flooded one relatively small area in Indonesia, not the earth. If you take water from tsunami or rains... to flood one area is would be lower in another, not covering the whole planet.

I am the first to admit I don't everything, but I do know that crickets have 6 legs not 4 and that the earth rotates. (see bible passages from previous post)

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