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Harvey Wasserman: Our Founders Were Not Fundamentalists

http://www.counterpunch.org/wasserman02152010.html

February 15, 2010
This Beer's on Washington ....
Our Founders Were Not Fundamentalists
By HARVEY WASSERMAN

This weekend's New York Times Sunday Magazine highlights yet another mob of extremists using the Texas School Board to baptize our children's textbooks.

This endless, ever-angry escalating assault on our Constitution by crusading theocrats could be obliterated with the effective incantation of two names: Benjamin Franklin, and Deganawidah.

But first, let's do some history:

1) Actual Founder-Presidents #2 through #6---John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, James Monroe and John Quincy Adams---were all freethinking Deists and Unitarians; what Christian precepts they embraced were moderate, tolerant and open-minded.

2) Actual Founder-President #1, George Washington, became an Anglican as required for original military service under the British, and occasionally quoted scripture. But he vehemently opposed any church-state union. In a 1790 letter to the Jews of Truro, he wrote: The "Government of the United States, which gives to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistances, requires only that they who live under its protection, should demean themselves as good citizens." A 1796 treaty he signed says "the government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion." Washington rarely went to church and by some accounts refused last religious rites.

3) Washington was also the nation's leading brewer, and since most Americans drank much beer (water could be lethal in the cities) they regularly trembled before the keg, not the altar. Like Washington, Jefferson and Madison, virtually all American farmers raised hemp and its variations.

4) Jefferson produced a personal Bible from which he edited out all reference to the "miraculous" from the life of Jesus, whom he considered both an activist and a mortal.

5) Tom Paine's COMMON SENSE sparked the Revolution with nary a mention of Jesus or Christianity. His Deist Creator established the laws of Nature, endowed humans with Free Will, then left.

6) The Constitution never mentions the words "Christian" or "Jesus" or "Christ."

7) Revolutionary America was filled with Christians whose commitment to toleration and diversity was completely adverse to the violent, racist, misogynist, anti-sex theocratic Puritans whose "City on the Hill" meant a totalitarian state. Inspirational preachers like Rhode Island's Roger Williams and religious groups like the Quakers envisioned a nation built on tolerance and love for all.

8) The US was founded less on Judeo-Christian beliefs than on the Greco-Roman love for dialog and reason. There are no contemporary portraits of any Founder wearing a crucifix or church garb. But Washington was famously painted half-naked in the buff toga of the Roman Republic, which continues to inspire much of our official architecture.

9) The great guerilla fighter (and furniture maker) Ethan Allen was an aggressive atheist; his beliefs were common among the farmers, sailors and artisans who were the backbone of Revolutionary America.

10) America's most influential statesman, thinker, writer, agitator, publisher, citizen-scientist and proud liberal libertine was---and remains---Benjamin Franklin. He was at the heart of the Declaration, Constitution and Treaty of Paris ending the Revolution. The ultimate Enlightenment icon, Franklin's Deism embraced a pragmatic love of diversity. As early America's dominant publisher he, Paine and Jefferson printed the intellectual soul of the new nation.

11) Franklin deeply admired the Ho-de-no-sau-nee (Iroquois) Confederacy of what's now upstate New York. Inspired by the legendary peacemaker Deganawidah, this democratic congress of five tribes had worked "better than the British Parliament" for more than two centuries. It gave us the model for our federal structure and the images of freedom and equality that inspired both the French and American Revolutions.

It's no accident today's fundamentalist crusaders and media bloviators (Rev. Limbaugh, St. Beck) seek to purge our children's texts of all native images except as they are being forceably converted or killed.

Today's fundamentalists would have DESPISED the actual Founders. Franklin's joyous, amply reciprocated love of women would evoke their limitless rage. Jefferson's paternities with his slave mistress Sally Hemings, Paine's attacks on the priesthood, Hamilton's bastardly philandering, the grassroots scorn for organized religion---all would draw howls of righteous right-wing rage.

Which may be why theocratic fundamentalists are so desperate to sanitize and fictionalize what's real about our history.

God forbid our children should know of American Christians who embraced the Sermon on the Mount and renounced the Book of Revelations…or natives who established democracy on American soil long before they saw the first European…or actual Founders who got drunk, high and laid on their way to writing the Constitution.

Faith-based tyranny is anti-American. So are dishonest textbooks. It's time to fight them both.

Harvey Wasserman is the author of SOLARTOPIA! Our Green-Powered Earth, A.D. 2030, is at www.solartopia.org. He can be reached at: Windhw@aol.com
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I just did a web search for hypocrites of the religious right and this appeared. It is really good but I didn't see a source to credit it to. Someone makes a good point, wish I could take credit. Things you won't hear at local Baptist churches.
ABOMINATIONS VS. ABOMINATIONS
MORAL SUPERIORITY OF HYPOCRITES
All the hypocrites like the religious right act as though they are morally superior because of their outspoken opposition to homosexuality. While it is true that homosexuality is an abomination but the religious right are not motivated out of love, but only that of domination seeking to bring about God's kingdom not through the people's hearts but through enforcing legislation (dominionism). These phonies put more trust in men and legislation than they do in God because they are carnally minded and lean to their own reason in defiance of scripture that says the opposite (Proverbs 3:5) and cannot discern the things of God because they do not have His spirit within them and are all living in fear. Besides, these phonies that pretend to oppose homosexuality are working for the republicans to which many are homosexuals. In fact a lot of the secret societies they belong to are dominantly homosexual. It is practically a requirement for satanists to be homosexual. So you get an idea of what Jesus was referring to in Matt.7:21-23 when speaking of the imposters who work iniquity. The guilty dog barks the loudest, just like the televangelists who accuse everyone else while acting so holy and self-righteous themselves, yet their own sins find them out and are exposed for the hypocrites they are. They are no different than the Pharisees who loved the praises of men. In the time during Jesus' ministry the governments were wicked and yet Jesus wasn't political. But his enemies, the Pharisees, were political. They worked hand in hand with herodians. They were heavily involved with their wicked governments which exposes the political frauds of today that work under that very same spirit. Such are spiritual *****s that do not belong to Christ. They are as foolish as Cain thinking that all their fleshly deeds glorify God when they do not obey Him at all nor know Him. Jesus sure didn't run around like these neocon cowards that sound like Chicken Little saying "the sky is falling, the sky is falling." They are all fearful cowardly alarmists that put their trust in the arm of the flesh. They put more trust in their worthless petitions than they do in God. How can such cowards expect to please God when they do not trust Him? Hypocrites act as though homosexuality is the only abomination, which it is not. Divination and witchcraft are also abominations to the Lord. How many hypocrites read their astrology while pointing the finger at homosexuals? A lot of neocons promote witchcraft directly or indirectly through the likes of books and movies of Harry Potter or Lord Of The Rings series. But besides that the bible says that rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft. So you don't even have to do divination or witchcraft but just rebel against God's word and his sabbath. It is all the same to Him. It is all an abomination to Him. Idolatry is also an abomination to God. Anything can be an idol and is in this country, even the country itself. God is no respecter of persons and will hold all to the same standards. Attending a church proves nothing because even homosexuals do that. Notice how false those who push churchism are? They generalize church as if going to any kind of church will save your soul, which is a lie from hell. According to them you can attend a masonic church or mormon church or even a church of Satan, and it is all the same to them, which proves which side they are speaking for. So more times than not most will be destroyed by their unholy unions with all these apostates. All throughout scripture teaches us to be diligent and to test the spirits, but these apostates do not want that. These religious devils will always say "How dare you question my authority? Who do you think you are?" This is how the Pharisees treated Jesus. These imposters put more emphasis on human authority than spiritual authority. They are nicolaitans. 1John 2:27 says to let no man teach you. John 14:26 says that it is the Holy Spirit that teaches. 1Peter 2:9 talks about the priesthood of all believers. Matthew 20:25-28 Jesus said that the rulers of the gentiles lord it over them but that his kingdom was not like that. Just as the example Jesus set that those who want to be great will serve, not dominate. With that you can easily recognize the evil fruits of all these wicked imposters that love to brag and lord it over others. Those whose righteousness does not surpass that of the Pharisees will not make it into his kingdom (Matt.5:20). Here in the buckle of the bible belt we have the largest homosexual church in the world. So you see what a crock this so called bible belt is as well as churchism. Proverbs 28:1 says,"The wicked man flees though no one pursues, but the righteous are as bold as a lion." It is the wicked that live in fear because they do not trust God. "He who trusts in himself is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom is kept safe."(Prov.28:26). Also Proverbs 29:25,"Fear of man will prove to be a snare, but whoever trusts in the Lord is kept safe." So many are so afraid of one thing or another. People are in fear over terrorists or muslims or democrats or whatever. Such are carnal and live unto the flesh and do not know God. Such are the religious leaders that try to spread their carnal paranoia among the rest of the sheep. They cause them to trust in flesh over trusting God. What a penalty they will pay for leading others astray. I used to be carnal and bought into these lies and even though that was in my past I still on ocassion get mail and emails from religious neocon sources and am speechless at their absurdity and immaturity. There is something wrong when people never grow up spiritually or emotionally. The neocons are modern Pharisees that are like whitewashed tombs that maybe pretty on the outside but are full of hypocrisy inside. They never learn the way of truth but despise it and get worse all the time. Jesus said that it is what is on the inside that defiles a man, which goes for all the selfrighteous superficiality hypocrites that love to judge others by their outward appearances. America needs to get its own house in order before we pass judgment on any other nation. We have our own terrorism here in the USA. It is called abortion. We terrorize our own unborn but yet have the nerve to attack other countries we perceive as evil. Do you honestly think God favors a nation in war that slaughters their own unborn? If so then you are deluded beyond all hope. God does not favor murderous nations. Jesus said that he that is without sin cast the first stone. Stoning someone was the act of killing that does not equate on any level of just mere criticism as how some like to twist the meaning. Warfare most certainly does equate to the act of stoning. For a nation that massacres it's unborn we ought to be ashamed to be called an american. Only a fool is proud of folly, and murderers proud of massacres.Yet the religious leaders pretend like they are standing up for the unborn all the while they support a party that has increased funding for abortion through TITLE X, which makes them murderers. Well Pharisees were murderers as were their ancestors who murdered the prophets. People need to wake up and stop supporting their madness or they will partake in their judgment. Many places the bible tells us not to cover for evil but that is what all these religious leaders do. This proves who their real father is. Even radical muslims know that abortion is wrong and that Jesus would not be for it. How is it that even a pagan knows Christ more than those who profess to be his? Everything these religious hypocrites stand for is only to be seen of men as they are full of arrogance and selfrighteousness. By these very same standards for war they say is justified would justify attack from our enemies over our abortion massacre. Remember that Jesus said that how you judge others is how you will be judged. Also that you will reap what you sow. America has a reaping season awaiting it for all the innocent blood spilt. Maybe there is some truth when they call us the GREAT SATAN. After all you almost have to be a satanist in order to lead this country (SKULL & BONES). These religious hypocrites are worried about prayer in public school. I think that would work against them because most other religions pray too, so how is that helping their cause? That proves that all these carnal methods of forcing the gospel are fruitless and end up backfiring on these hypocrites. What does prayer at a sporting event have to do with anything? Jesus instructed believers to pray in private, not in public as the hypocrites do. The words of Jesus testifies against the very nature of these lying phonies. These hypocrites talk about public display of the ten commanments but it was their beloved idol, Bush, who betrayed Judge Roy Moore for taking such a stand. Besides, they defile the fourth commandment as well as most of all the other commandments which also proves their insincerity. These hypocrites talk about the sanctity of marriage yet do not encourage restrictions on divorce or remarriage. Maybe because these very hypocrites have themselves been divorced and remarried several times, which Jesus said is adultery. Many put their submission to an adulterer on the pulpit. Hypocrites are worried about democrats taking away their religion. Well maybe we need them after all to save us from this theocracy of the Beast. Such cowards will not be able to handle true persecution, but persecution will come because Jesus promised it. They will either persecute or be persecuted. Throughout the ages persecution always came from the church or religious establishment and will be no different in the last days. That is how the Beast will fool many because of his religious nature. But those who don't really care to know God or His word bring destruction on themselves because they will fall for anything and everything. Jesus said that wickedness will increase in the last days, proving the teachings of great endtime revival as false. I do believe there will be revivals but not on a massive scale. To say such is calling Jesus a liar. Jesus said not to fear what man can do but these lying neocons teach the opposite of Jesus by teaching fear. People throughout the world suffer for the cause of Christ but these cowards know not suffering. They are like the Pharisees who disfigured themselves when fasting to generate sympathy from others. That is what all this whining from these phonies remind me of. Cowardice is the first thing listed for those condemned to the lake of fire in Rev.21:8. Jesus said that those who are not willing to carry their cross are not worthy of him. That is self explanatory. Nobody can believe these lying neocons when they talk about life being sacred when they are the war party. Those who live by the sword die by the sword. If you ever come across these pretensious neocon hypocrites that talk about being pro-life then just tell them that their party voted for TITLE X increased funding for abortion and that ought to shut them up. Tell them that they are voting for murderers who refused to sign Ron Paul's SANCTITY OF LIFE bill. That ought to embarass them beyond comprehension. Of course I realize like the slithering snakes they are that they will try some flimsy excuse to weasel their way around it. They are shameless and know no shame, proving that their consciences are seared. These phonies cannot give a sraight up answer. That is why Jesus said let your yes be yes and your no be no, that all else is of the devil because he loves to deceive with many words to try to divert from the truth.
Pogo do some original research...

quote:

"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists but by Christians, not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ." - Patrick Henry

quote:

"In the charter granted to Massachusetts, in 1640, by Charles I., the Colonies are enjoined by 'their good life and orderly conversation to win and invite the natives of the country to a knowledge of the only true God and Savior of mankind, and the Christian faith which, in our royal intention and adventurer's free possession, is the principal end of this plantation"'

quote:

Pennsylvania
"The first legislative act, December, 1682, "announced the ends of a true civil government. 'Whereas the glory of Almighty God and the good of mankind is the reason and end of government, and, therefore, government in itself is a venerable ordinance of God..."' And it is the purpose of civil government to establish "laws as shall best preserve true Christian and civil liberty, in opposition to all unchristian, licentious, and unjust practices, whereby God may have his due, Caesar his due, and the people their due, from tyranny and oppression".

quote:

John Adams:
“ The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianity… I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.”

quote:

John Quincy Adams:
• “Why is it that, next to the birthday of the Savior of the world, your most joyous and most venerated festival returns on this day [the Fourth of July]?" “Is it not that, in the chain of human events, the birthday of the nation is indissolubly linked with the birthday of the Savior? That it forms a leading event in the progress of the Gospel dispensation? Is it not that the Declaration of Independence first organized the social compact on the foundation of the Redeemer's mission upon earth? That it laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity"?
--1837, at the age of 69, when he delivered a Fourth of July speech at Newburyport, Massachusetts.
quote:
Originally posted by ferrellj:
I would be lying if I said I had never written on my hand. I'm sure you would too. I still have not seen the disgrace in that.
Ferrell, Isn't it ironic that those most bothered by Sarah Palin having notes written on her hand don't seem bothered at all that President Obama can't order a hamburger from the McDonald's drive-thru without a teleprompter telling him exactly what to say?
First of all, John Quincy Adams is not considered one of the Founding Fathers. His father, John Adams is since he signed the Declaration of Independence. James Monroe isn't a Founding Father either, he was elected president in the early 1800's and did not sign the Constitution, Declaration of Independence, or Articles of Confederation. I don't really know why the writer of that article decided to throw in president #5 and say he's a Founding Father.

That's not all that's incorrect about the article. It's the usual junk that you would find on that kind of a site. Hateful, malicious, intolerant of others, and factually incorrect.

The Founding Fathers ranged from Quakers, to Presbyterians, to Catholics, to Deists, to Unitarians. If you look at all of their beliefs, you'll see that it is a very diverse group.

They believed that all religious views should be protected. The belief that God does not exist has just as much constitutional protection as the belief that God is real. To try and, in the writer's words, "fight" the other side and try to silence them is not what our Founding Fathers wanted at all. That's why they ensured we have the right to free speech and religious freedom. They wanted Americans to be free to choose their own beliefs, free to express them, and not have to fear persecution.

An incredibly hateful article from a so called "progressive".
quote:
Originally posted by JOY4567:
quote:
Originally posted by ferrellj:
I would be lying if I said I had never written on my hand. I'm sure you would too. I still have not seen the disgrace in that.
Ferrell, Isn't it ironic that those most bothered by Sarah Palin having notes written on her hand don't seem bothered at all that President Obama can't order a hamburger from the McDonald's drive-thru without a teleprompter telling him exactly what to say?


Really, they act like it's never been done before or something. I thought it was a smart thing to do. Like you said maybe Obama could learn a lesson there.
The founders believed in God and seperation of church and state and freedom to practice your own religion and not a state mandated one. If you notice all the quotes by Joy, which apply, those from 1600's do not apply, state they beleive in Christian principles.

They were not Fundamentalists.

The Declaration of Independence says we are endowed with certian rights by our creator. It does not mention Jesus Christ or any God in particular.

And Rocky, don't pay any attention to ferrellj, no one takes him seriously anyway, ignore him when he has nothing constructive to answer, which is most of the time.
quote:
Originally posted by Pogo142:
The founders believed in God and seperation of church and state and freedom to practice your own religion and not a state mandated one. If you notice all the quotes by Joy, which apply, those from 1600's do not apply, state they beleive in Christian principles.

They were not Fundamentalists.

The Declaration of Independence says we are endowed with certian rights by our creator. It does not mention Jesus Christ or any God in particular.

And Rocky, don't pay any attention to ferrellj, no one takes him seriously anyway, ignore him when he has nothing constructive to answer, which is most of the time.


That's a pretty low blow there pogo.
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


ferrellj:

Maybe you could do a list with rocky with all my insults and immature remarks on it.

"If global warming causes snow, what does global cooling cause?"

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


We can start with this one and every time you do state immature remarks and insults I will point them out. See how long you can go and how many posts you can write.

Ignorance, or not knowing, I can understand, no one is perfect and knows everything but immature remarks and insults have no place on the Forum.
quote:
Originally posted by Pogo142:
The founders believed in God and seperation of church and state and freedom to practice your own religion and not a state mandated one. If you notice all the quotes by Joy, which apply, those from 1600's do not apply, state they beleive in Christian principles.

They were not Fundamentalists.

The Declaration of Independence says we are endowed with certian rights by our creator. It does not mention Jesus Christ or any God in particular.

And Rocky, don't pay any attention to ferrellj, no one takes him seriously anyway, ignore him when he has nothing constructive to answer, which is most of the time.


Yeah, and...?

The writer of the article made several historical errors and clearly is intolerant of other views.

Trying to say that the Founding Fathers were not fundamentalists is just as flawed as trying to say they were. It's taking a modern concept and trying to apply it to people of the late 18th century. You simply can't do that. You can try and understand their personal religious views, but you have to always keep it in the proper context. These were people who lived more than 200 years ago, things were very different then.
quote:
Originally posted by Pogo142:
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


ferrellj:

Maybe you could do a list with rocky with all my insults and immature remarks on it.

"If global warming causes snow, what does global cooling cause?"

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


We can start with this one and every time you do state immature remarks and insults I will point them out. See how long you can go and how many posts you can write.

Ignorance, or not knowing, I can understand, no one is perfect and knows everything but immature remarks and insults have no place on the Forum.


I'm up for it. I'll do the same with you and we'll keep score. I wonder if rocky wants in?
quote:
Originally posted by Pogo142:
It applies to everyone. We should be at least able to talk to one another. I haven't been on the Forum that much the last few days but every insult Rocky has made, that I saw, was in response to an insult to him.


I must respectfully disagree with you. You need to read all his posts before making a statement like that. There has been some things said to him that should not have but he fully brought it on himself. I've even personally tried to give him advice on proper forum behavior.
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


NashBama:

[quote]The writer of the article made several historical errors and clearly is intolerant of other views.

Trying to say that the Founding Fathers were not fundamentalists is just as flawed as trying to say they were. It's taking a modern concept and trying to apply it to people of the late 18th century. You simply can't do that. You can try and understand their personal religious views, but you have to always keep it in the proper context. These were people who lived more than 200 years ago, things were very different then.


_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

This is basically true to an extent, things were different 200 years ago but basic points were the same. They believed in a God but did not chose one over another and those that did believed in religous freedom and they did not want to impose their beliefs on others.

As far as the Historical points go they are minor, the point is the main object of the piece. Trying to pick apart little points is a pathetic attempt to discredit something that shows the right wing is wrong.

But I will say your post is well written and your point taken.
I thought I'd post part of the Mayflower Compact which is often sited as the foundation for our Constitution, it might shed some light on the subject.
"Having undertaken, for the Glory of God and advancement of the Christian Faith and Honour of our King and Country, a Voyage to plant the First Colony in the Northern Parts of Virginia, do by these present solemnly and mutually in the presence of God and one of another, Covenant and Combine ourselves together into a Civil Body Politic, for our better ordering and preservation and furtherance of the ends aforesaid; "
That was the beginning, after that we went through various changes at one time you could not vote if you were not a member of the church. The notion of seperation of church and state was that the Government should never be able to run the church not that Church could not be involved in government. Even Harvard and Yale were both theological schools, every public school taught the Bible(so much for various gods) and in order to become a lawyer you must take the Bible as a course. While you may not agree with it and America has certainly changed over the past hundreds of years you can not honestly look at history and water down the Faith of our Founding Fathers.
quote:
Originally posted by rocky:
quote:
An incredibly hateful article from a so called "progressive".

I think that is a compliment. Progressives aren't as mean spirited as neocons but then there are the redneck liberals like me! LOL


You little twit, don't you dare brag about being a Redneck, those are honorable people. You hardly fit the bill to qualify.
quote:
Originally posted by dpbrownie:
I thought I'd post part of the Mayflower Compact which is often sited as the foundation for our Constitution, it might shed some light on the subject.
"Having undertaken, for the Glory of God and advancement of the Christian Faith and Honour of our King and Country, a Voyage to plant the First Colony in the Northern Parts of Virginia, do by these present solemnly and mutually in the presence of God and one of another, Covenant and Combine ourselves together into a Civil Body Politic, for our better ordering and preservation and furtherance of the ends aforesaid; "
That was the beginning, after that we went through various changes at one time you could not vote if you were not a member of the church. The notion of seperation of church and state was that the Government should never be able to run the church not that Church could not be involved in government. Even Harvard and Yale were both theological schools, every public school taught the Bible(so much for various gods) and in order to become a lawyer you must take the Bible as a course. While you may not agree with it and America has certainly changed over the past hundreds of years you can not honestly look at history and water down the Faith of our Founding Fathers.


The Mayflower Compact, a one-paragraph agreement entered into in 1620, pre-dates the Constitution by 168 years and does not shed any relevant light on the design of this nation as set forth in the Constitution. The Mayflower Compact was the first governing document of Plymouth Colony, not of the United States of America. It was premised upon loyalty to the King Of England. It did not even contain the signatures of a majority of the settlers of the colony at the time it was enacted.

It is erroneous and not a little silly to cite the Mayflower Compact as any kind of corroboration of the notion that this is a Christian nation or that it was founded with the intent of its being one. The Plymouth Colony folks were NOT the founders of this country. They were a hardy band of persecuted religious people who carved out for themselves a tiny piece of land in what later became part of this country and who committed to maintain loyalty to a foreign monarch. Whatever the Mayflower Compact is, it is NOT the basis for any characterization of the USA as a "Christian Nation" in the 21st Century or at any time since its founding 168 years after the compact was formed.
quote:
Originally posted by beternU:

The Mayflower Compact, a one-paragraph agreement entered into in 1620, pre-dates the Constitution by 168 years and does not shed any relevant light on the design of this nation as set forth in the Constitution. The Mayflower Compact was the first governing document of Plymouth Colony, not of the United States of America. It was premised upon loyalty to the King Of England. It did not even contain the signatures of a majority of the settlers of the colony at the time it was enacted.

It is erroneous and not a little silly to cite the Mayflower Compact as any kind of corroboration of the notion that this is a Christian nation or that it was founded with the intent of its being one. The Plymouth Colony folks were NOT the founders of this country. They were a hardy band of persecuted religious people who carved out for themselves a tiny piece of land in what later became part of this country and who committed to maintain loyalty to a foreign monarch. Whatever the Mayflower Compact is, it is NOT the basis for any characterization of the USA as a "Christian Nation" in the 21st Century or at any time since its founding 168 years after the compact was formed.
Valid point. However, it does not invalidate the fact that the US was founded on Christian principles.
quote:
Originally posted by Pogo142:


Ignorance, or not knowing, I can understand, no one is perfect and knows everything but immature remarks and insults have no place on the Forum.


On the contrary, immature remarks and insults have every place on a forum. Especially in response to those who think they know everything and then beat us over the head with it. That's why it's called a 'forum.' Without debate in whatever form it takes-it would be called 'dictation' instead. Wink Snot flows both ways, ya know.
quote:
This is basically true to an extent, things were different 200 years ago but basic points were the same. They believed in a God but did not chose one over another and those that did believed in religous freedom and they did not want to impose their beliefs on others.

As far as the Historical points go they are minor, the point is the main object of the piece. Trying to pick apart little points is a pathetic attempt to discredit something that shows the right wing is wrong.


If the writer doesn't even know who the founding fathers are, then how can he speak for them about their views? It's not a tiny error, it's a huge flaw in the core of his argument.

The real founding fathers came from a variety of different religious backgrounds. At the time, the Church of England was the official state religion. Other religions such as Puritans or non believers were persecuted for their beliefs. The original founding fathers wanted to establish a country were people were free to practice or not practice any religion they chose. Also, people would be free to express their beliefs or non-beliefs without government persecution.

By saying that we are supposed to "fight" a particular religious group shows intolerance and an ignorance of what the founding fathers wanted to establish. The writer is free to speak out against modern day fundamentalism, but to try and compare a modern day belief to views 200+ years ago shows that he is no historian. The anger in his tone gives away his intolerance towards people of different beliefs, which is not what the founding fathers wanted for this country.

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