There have been 3,357 coalition deaths -- 3,103 Americans, two Australians, 131 Britons, 13 according to a CNN count.
http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2003/iraq/forces/casualties/index.html
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Any idea of how many of those happened since the declaration of "mission accomplished" ?
>>>>>Any idea of how many of those happened since the declaration of "mission accomplished" ?<<<<
No,I have no Ideal. Whats your point?
No,I have no Ideal. Whats your point?
Don't really know if I had one, just a cold day and kinda bored. Don't believe we lost too many before the dec. tho, most have come as a result of police work.
I THINK what excelman meant was that MISSION ACCOMPLISHED isn't gonna happen any time soon... or that was the way "I" read that.
If you search at how many Americans were killed in the first 3 years of Vietnam, the numbers wouldn't be much different... BUT the HUGE difference in Vietnam and Iraq is the Medics. Medics and their supplies SAVE so many of our Troops it is unreal... But actual injuries as recorded back a couple of months ago was over 22,000... Back during Vietnam probably about 4-5 thousand of them wouldn't have been able to be saved like today in Iraq.
Not much difference, not much difference at all...
The thing is though, that our Leaders back then PRETENDED to at least CARE... seems like now only folks like us plain old everyday John and Jane Doe's are the ones who actually CARE.
If you search at how many Americans were killed in the first 3 years of Vietnam, the numbers wouldn't be much different... BUT the HUGE difference in Vietnam and Iraq is the Medics. Medics and their supplies SAVE so many of our Troops it is unreal... But actual injuries as recorded back a couple of months ago was over 22,000... Back during Vietnam probably about 4-5 thousand of them wouldn't have been able to be saved like today in Iraq.
Not much difference, not much difference at all...
The thing is though, that our Leaders back then PRETENDED to at least CARE... seems like now only folks like us plain old everyday John and Jane Doe's are the ones who actually CARE.
Declaration of Mission Accomplished... hmmmm, that seems a tad factious, ....
PBA, looks like he was agreeing with your link.... my take anyway.
PBA, looks like he was agreeing with your link.... my take anyway.
Actually I was.
KS , you really are a kindrid spirit.
Good point about the medics, I haven't really thought about that.
KS , you really are a kindrid spirit.
Good point about the medics, I haven't really thought about that.
quote:Originally posted by Kindred_Spirit:
I THINK what excelman meant was that MISSION ACCOMPLISHED isn't gonna happen any time soon... or that was the way "I" read that.
If you search at how many Americans were killed in the first 3 years of Vietnam, the numbers wouldn't be much different... BUT the HUGE difference in Vietnam and Iraq is the Medics. Medics and their supplies SAVE so many of our Troops it is unreal... But actual injuries as recorded back a couple of months ago was over 22,000... Back during Vietnam probably about 4-5 thousand of them wouldn't have been able to be saved like today in Iraq.
Not much difference, not much difference at all...
The thing is though, that our Leaders back then PRETENDED to at least CARE... seems like now only folks like us plain old everyday John and Jane Doe's are the ones who actually CARE.
Oh, I did'nt think he was trying to be ugly or anything like that, I was just wondering what he meant. Thanks K.S.
PBA, you are so much better than I am at searching out things... is there any way you can find a place that would give a yearly tally of deaths and injuries of each year the Vietnam COLD war went on?
I tried looking a little bit, but didn't find any stats.
I tried looking a little bit, but didn't find any stats.
quote:Originally posted by excelman:
Don't really know if I had one, just a cold day and kinda bored. Don't believe we lost too many before the dec. tho, most have come as a result of police work.
Yeah,its hard to tell as you know,we don't know much, other than what the media tells us. You know how the media can spin.
quote:Originally posted by Kindred_Spirit:
PBA, you are so much better than I am at searching out things... is there any way you can find a place that would give a yearly tally of deaths and injuries of each year the Vietnam COLD war went on?
I tried looking a little bit, but didn't find any stats.
Here is a page that has many Vietnam War statistics including casualties by year. It's kind of hard to follow at first but the numbers are there.
http://www.rjsmith.com/kia_tbl.html
quote:Originally posted by Kindred_Spirit:
PBA, you are so much better than I am at searching out things... is there any way you can find a place that would give a yearly tally of deaths and injuries of each year the Vietnam COLD war went on?
I tried looking a little bit, but didn't find any stats.
Fighting Illini has offered a site,I will check the site he has offered to us and I will do some more checking.
Thank you PBA for me being my fact checker but I didn't find this info on capitolhillblue.com so you might be out of luck. Just foolin with you! 
Thanks Fighting Illini... and thanks PBA!!! I think the stats are very important at that skirmish, and comparing it to this one... it MIGHT open some eyes a little bit.... especially taking our glorious Medics into consideration 
quote:Originally posted by Fighting Illini:
Thank you PBA for me being my fact checker but I didn't find this info on capitolhillblue.com so you might be out of luck. Just foolin with you!
Thats cool! lol!
quote:Originally posted by pba:quote:Originally posted by Kindred_Spirit:
PBA, you are so much better than I am at searching out things... is there any way you can find a place that would give a yearly tally of deaths and injuries of each year the Vietnam COLD war went on?
I tried looking a little bit, but didn't find any stats.
Fighting Illini has offered a site,I will check the site he has offered to us and I will do some more checking.
Check this out,it gives lots of histroy on viet-nam. let me know what you think.
The Vietnam War was a military conflict in present day Vietnam occurring from 1959 to April 30, 1975. The conflict was a successful effort by the Democratic Republic of Vietnam (DRV or North Vietnam)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War
This thread is PROOF POSITIVE - Liberal dems are DEMANDING that this is VIETNAM all over again. YOU are the ones making it into Vietnam.
It is not. It is in no way related.
How long can you "peace, love, dope" groupies hold on to Vietnam and use it for political gain?
You already have groups picketing our soldiers funerals, refusing to provide goods if used by soldiers, and now pushing congress to underfund the troops to force a withdrawal JUST TO TURN AROUND AND SAY it was another Vietnam.
Now I remember why I don't frequent this forum too often.
It is not. It is in no way related.
How long can you "peace, love, dope" groupies hold on to Vietnam and use it for political gain?
You already have groups picketing our soldiers funerals, refusing to provide goods if used by soldiers, and now pushing congress to underfund the troops to force a withdrawal JUST TO TURN AROUND AND SAY it was another Vietnam.
Now I remember why I don't frequent this forum too often.
As in every other war, there were the opposers from the start. In Viet Nam, the opposers, who happened to be more leftists than anything other, received a huge boost in the arm on February 27, 1968, when Walter Cronkite announced about the Tet of ’68 Offensive launched by the North Vietnamese, “To say that we are closer to victory today is to believe, in the face of the evidence, the optimists who have been wrong in the past. To suggest we are on the edge of defeat is to yield to unreasonable pessimism. To say that we are mired in stalemate seems the only realistic, yet unsatisfactory, conclusion.”
Apparently unbeknownst to Mr. Cronkite, the North Vietnamese Forces were soundly defeated. Their forces were decimated and the Viet Cong nearly ceased to exist. General Vo Nguyen Giap, Commanding General of North Vietnamese Forces and Defense Minister, is reported to have been considering negotiating a surrender. Although there was much speculation back on forth on the veracity of his thought (as claimed) relegating it to the status of Urban Legend by the anti-war left but embraced by others, sources have come forward now indicating there is a distinct possibility of it being factual.
On page 38 of the October 2005 edition of VIETNAM magazine, there is an interview with retired North Vietnamese General Nguyen Duc Huy where he is asked, “After the war, Giap told a group of Western reporters that Communist losses in the Tet Offensive [of 1968] were so devastating that if the American forces had kept up that level of Military pressure much longer North Vietnam would have been forced to negotiate a peace on American terms. Do you agree?”
General Huy replied, “If the American army had fought some more, had continued, I don’t know. Maybe. I can’t say what would have happened.”
Along these same lines, we have the August 3, 1995 Wall Street journal account of the interview with Colonel Bui Tin. When asked what was the purpose of the Tet Offensive, he replied, “To relieve the pressure Gen. Westmoreland was putting on us in late 1966 and 1967 and to weaken American resolve during a presidential election year.”
Asked about the results of the Tet Offensive, he said, “Our losses were staggering and a complete surprise. Giap later told me that Tet had been a military defeat, though we had gained the planned political advantages when Johnson agreed to negotiate and did not run for re-election. The second and third waves in May and September were, in retrospect, mistakes. Our forces in the South were nearly wiped out by all the fighting in 1968. It took us until 1971 to re-establish our presence, but we had to use North Vietnamese troops as local guerrillas. If the American forces had not begun to withdraw under Nixon in 1969, they could have punished us severely. We suffered badly in 1969 and 1970 as it was.”
Obviously, Walter Cronkite was wrong as was the anti-war left of the time. In effect the opposition ended up costing us more than had we fought the war to a finish, which was possible. In American lives, it cost us nearly 40,000 more dead. The Vietnamese loss of life runs into the millions, both before and after our withdrawal and the surrender of Saigon.
Today we have a different enemy and one maybe even more determined to defeat us than was North Viet Nam. Sadly, our defeat would not be just a mere return home to scorn for the troops and embarrassment for the nation, our defeat this time will be either our death or enslavement under the Islamofascists radical perversion of Islam. With them, you submit, or die, no middle ground.
Like Viet Nam, we have the same opposition and undermining of the war effort by Democrats. Whether we agree with the war or not, we are in it, we have troops in harm’s way and our enemy’s will fight us whether we face them there or here.
As a Viet Nam Veteran, seeing politics as usual playing out as our troops are being shot at and dying more than troubles me. Several Democrats have vowed to launch investigation after investigation with the sole goal of impeachment. This is nothing more than childish tit for tat. It would also mire our troops down in a real quagmire, as the President would be unable to properly focus on prosecuting the war. This alone could raise our casualty list considerably and if we just left, as many want us to do, we leave a vacuum that would most likely be filled by the Islamofascists, which would then result in untold death and casualties and enslavement of citizens of both Iraq and Afghanistan. My guess is the number would make the numbers we saw in Southeast Asia in the 1970s and 1980s pale in comparison.
We have others vowing to de-fund the war effort as well raise taxes again. Virtually everything the Democrat Party has vowed to do I see as detrimental to our country and to our troops in harm’s way.
Much like has been revealed by the North Vietnamese, I see fundamentalist Islamofascists seeing they only need to wait us out once more and they achieve victory, at a severe cost both to us and to our fledgling allies in Iraq and Afghanistan. Like I said, though, this time the cost will not only be bore by those in other countries, but by our citizens as well as the terrorists have shown they can easily breech our shores and their goal is not just to remove us from the Middle East, but to eliminate Western Culture as we know it.
Whether you see the war as legal or not, the Islamofascists see it as their war to eliminate us. They never cared about “legalities” or the Geneva conventions. They only see their goal of world domination, as they have desired for centuries.
The current Democratic Party leadership seems to be prepared to hand it to them, at the detriment of our country and it’s citizens. Politics as usual during wartime is suicidal!
Apparently unbeknownst to Mr. Cronkite, the North Vietnamese Forces were soundly defeated. Their forces were decimated and the Viet Cong nearly ceased to exist. General Vo Nguyen Giap, Commanding General of North Vietnamese Forces and Defense Minister, is reported to have been considering negotiating a surrender. Although there was much speculation back on forth on the veracity of his thought (as claimed) relegating it to the status of Urban Legend by the anti-war left but embraced by others, sources have come forward now indicating there is a distinct possibility of it being factual.
On page 38 of the October 2005 edition of VIETNAM magazine, there is an interview with retired North Vietnamese General Nguyen Duc Huy where he is asked, “After the war, Giap told a group of Western reporters that Communist losses in the Tet Offensive [of 1968] were so devastating that if the American forces had kept up that level of Military pressure much longer North Vietnam would have been forced to negotiate a peace on American terms. Do you agree?”
General Huy replied, “If the American army had fought some more, had continued, I don’t know. Maybe. I can’t say what would have happened.”
Along these same lines, we have the August 3, 1995 Wall Street journal account of the interview with Colonel Bui Tin. When asked what was the purpose of the Tet Offensive, he replied, “To relieve the pressure Gen. Westmoreland was putting on us in late 1966 and 1967 and to weaken American resolve during a presidential election year.”
Asked about the results of the Tet Offensive, he said, “Our losses were staggering and a complete surprise. Giap later told me that Tet had been a military defeat, though we had gained the planned political advantages when Johnson agreed to negotiate and did not run for re-election. The second and third waves in May and September were, in retrospect, mistakes. Our forces in the South were nearly wiped out by all the fighting in 1968. It took us until 1971 to re-establish our presence, but we had to use North Vietnamese troops as local guerrillas. If the American forces had not begun to withdraw under Nixon in 1969, they could have punished us severely. We suffered badly in 1969 and 1970 as it was.”
Obviously, Walter Cronkite was wrong as was the anti-war left of the time. In effect the opposition ended up costing us more than had we fought the war to a finish, which was possible. In American lives, it cost us nearly 40,000 more dead. The Vietnamese loss of life runs into the millions, both before and after our withdrawal and the surrender of Saigon.
Today we have a different enemy and one maybe even more determined to defeat us than was North Viet Nam. Sadly, our defeat would not be just a mere return home to scorn for the troops and embarrassment for the nation, our defeat this time will be either our death or enslavement under the Islamofascists radical perversion of Islam. With them, you submit, or die, no middle ground.
Like Viet Nam, we have the same opposition and undermining of the war effort by Democrats. Whether we agree with the war or not, we are in it, we have troops in harm’s way and our enemy’s will fight us whether we face them there or here.
As a Viet Nam Veteran, seeing politics as usual playing out as our troops are being shot at and dying more than troubles me. Several Democrats have vowed to launch investigation after investigation with the sole goal of impeachment. This is nothing more than childish tit for tat. It would also mire our troops down in a real quagmire, as the President would be unable to properly focus on prosecuting the war. This alone could raise our casualty list considerably and if we just left, as many want us to do, we leave a vacuum that would most likely be filled by the Islamofascists, which would then result in untold death and casualties and enslavement of citizens of both Iraq and Afghanistan. My guess is the number would make the numbers we saw in Southeast Asia in the 1970s and 1980s pale in comparison.
We have others vowing to de-fund the war effort as well raise taxes again. Virtually everything the Democrat Party has vowed to do I see as detrimental to our country and to our troops in harm’s way.
Much like has been revealed by the North Vietnamese, I see fundamentalist Islamofascists seeing they only need to wait us out once more and they achieve victory, at a severe cost both to us and to our fledgling allies in Iraq and Afghanistan. Like I said, though, this time the cost will not only be bore by those in other countries, but by our citizens as well as the terrorists have shown they can easily breech our shores and their goal is not just to remove us from the Middle East, but to eliminate Western Culture as we know it.
Whether you see the war as legal or not, the Islamofascists see it as their war to eliminate us. They never cared about “legalities” or the Geneva conventions. They only see their goal of world domination, as they have desired for centuries.
The current Democratic Party leadership seems to be prepared to hand it to them, at the detriment of our country and it’s citizens. Politics as usual during wartime is suicidal!
quote:Originally posted by excelman:
Don't really know if I had one, just a cold day and kinda bored. Don't believe we lost too many before the dec. tho, most have come as a result of police work.
The numberb before the May 1, 2003 Mission Accomplished speech, 139 dead, 2,400 wounded.
Insurgent attacks per day 8...as of May 1, 2006, the number of attacks on US troops had risen to 75 per day.
http://thinkprogress.org/2006/05/01/mission-accomplished-by-the-numbers/
as of May 1, 2006. In the past 10 months over 1000 US troops have died.
quote:Originally posted by imho:
This thread is PROOF POSITIVE - Liberal dems are DEMANDING that this is VIETNAM all over again. YOU are the ones making it into Vietnam.
It is not. It is in no way related.
How long can you "peace, love, dope" groupies hold on to Vietnam and use it for political gain?
You already have groups picketing our soldiers funerals, refusing to provide goods if used by soldiers, and now pushing congress to underfund the troops to force a withdrawal JUST TO TURN AROUND AND SAY it was another Vietnam.
Now I remember why I don't frequent this forum too often.
imho, LIBERALS DID NOT START THIS WAR, ARE NOT TRYING TO CONQUER THE WORLD, AND IN THE CASE OF THE WAR IN IRAQ, OPPOSITION TO THE WAR IS NOW NEARING 70% OF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.
quote:Originally posted by imho:
This thread is PROOF POSITIVE - Liberal dems are DEMANDING that this is VIETNAM all over again. YOU are the ones making it into Vietnam.
It is not. It is in no way related.
How long can you "peace, love, dope" groupies hold on to Vietnam and use it for political gain?
You already have groups picketing our soldiers funerals, refusing to provide goods if used by soldiers, and now pushing congress to underfund the troops to force a withdrawal JUST TO TURN AROUND AND SAY it was another Vietnam.
Now I remember why I don't frequent this forum too often.
That's ridiculous and another example of how the right wing tries to blame liberals for their own mistakes. Instead of being angry at those who lied you try to blame liberals who were right. And actually world wide conservative or liberal the majority of the people of the world knew it was a lie and opposed it. You were sold out by your conservative hero's and the corporate media. Why do you still listen to these liars?
The corporate media has lied and allowed corporations to rob and sell it out the American people.
We are calling it another Vietnam because it is. Our soldiers were not greeted as liberators and the majority of the American people now realize that they were lied into this war, there are no WMD and there was no al Qaeda connection, and Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. Just like Vietnam it is an occupation where we are bogged down in a guerilla war where the people do not want us. Polls show that the majority of the Iraqi people want us to leave. They also believe attacks on American soldiers are legitimate.
Something's wrong here.
Even polls among the soldiers show the majority believe we are not helping and need to withdraw.
We want to end the funding and withdraw and stop the killing because it is another Vietnam.
groups picketing our soldiers funerals are not Liberal democrats, they are from the Very far extreme right wing movements!!!!
Religous Extremists Protest Soldiers' Funerals
The right wing built its power by embracing extremism, but surely those who still claim to be “compassionate conservatives” will publicly oppose this hate mongering:
http://americanpolitix.blogspot.com/2005/08/religious-r...-group-protests.html
pba -
How long was your tour? Army or Marines? MOS?
quote:We are calling it another Vietnam because it is. Our soldiers were not greeted as liberators
How long was your tour? Army or Marines? MOS?
quote:Originally posted by lewwaters:
pba -quote:We are calling it another Vietnam because it is. Our soldiers were not greeted as liberators
How long was your tour? Army or Marines? MOS?
How long was your tour? Army or Marines? MOS?explain please!!
You speak with such authority about Viet Nam, I figure you too must have been there. It helps place things in persepctive as to whether someone is speaking from experience or from misleading books.
As for me, 18 months boots on the ground, US Army, June 1969 to Jan 1971, 67V20, OH-6A/OH-58A Crew Chief/Mechanic, Central Highlands, Qui Nhon, An Son, An Khe, Pleiku.
Incidentally, we didn't go to Viet Nam to "liberate" the people, but to stem the on rushing tide of Communism that ended up enslaving the country resulting in untold millions of innocent deaths of Vietnamese, Cambodians and Laotians. Untold thousands more were lost in the South China Sea fleeing Viet Nam after America turned their backs on the struggling country and its people and opened the door for the Communist takeover.
You do recall the "Boat People," do you not?
I personally met quite a few Vietnamese who more than welcomed us there and were downhearted when we left them high and dry, leading China to refer to America as "a Paper Tiger."
How many more need be abandoned during their time of need? America didn't gain its independence alone. No one does.
As for me, 18 months boots on the ground, US Army, June 1969 to Jan 1971, 67V20, OH-6A/OH-58A Crew Chief/Mechanic, Central Highlands, Qui Nhon, An Son, An Khe, Pleiku.
Incidentally, we didn't go to Viet Nam to "liberate" the people, but to stem the on rushing tide of Communism that ended up enslaving the country resulting in untold millions of innocent deaths of Vietnamese, Cambodians and Laotians. Untold thousands more were lost in the South China Sea fleeing Viet Nam after America turned their backs on the struggling country and its people and opened the door for the Communist takeover.
You do recall the "Boat People," do you not?
I personally met quite a few Vietnamese who more than welcomed us there and were downhearted when we left them high and dry, leading China to refer to America as "a Paper Tiger."
How many more need be abandoned during their time of need? America didn't gain its independence alone. No one does.
imho says >>> Liberal dems are DEMANDING that this is VIETNAM all over again ,You already have groups picketing our soldiers funerals<<<<<
That's funny, cause I never heard Phelps being called Liberal. I remember him protesting AIDS funerals and Planned Parenthood offices and waving the bible around.
I know at one time when he was protesting at soldiers funerals the media did try to tie him to the anti war movement in a vague way but the Left complained and it made the media look foolish. The media were trying to discredit the anti War movement as being insensitive but when they realized who Phelps was and how desperate they were seen trying to discredit the anti war movement they dropped it.
The left and the anti War movement, which does have some conservatives, never protest at soldiers funerals and realize the soldiers are victims themselves. They are victims of the lies by the government and the tools for corporate profits.
The left never "spit on Vietnam Vets" either. More lies by the right wing.
I find it so ridiculous that Falwell and Roberts would blame 9/11 on American tolerance to Gay people. Man, they are so far from Jesus' teachings it's pathetic.
How about 9/11 was exactly what bin laden said it was. In retaliation for US support of Israel's invasion, bombing and destruction of Lebanon, specifically Israelis brutal siege of Beirut in 1982. Anywhere from 15 to almost 20 thousand people, mostly innocent civilians were killed in the invasion.
In his first tape after the 9/11 attacks bin Laden spoke of the Iraqi sanctions, that killed over a million people and the fact that there are "foreign troops in Palestine." Bin Laden has been writing and speaking about the US domination of the region since WW2. How these "geniuses" could warp the attack to mean it was God's vengence for peoples tolerance of Gays is laughable.
Hugo Chavez is right when he tells Americans to read Chomsky and "stop watching Superman and Batman movies, that make you stupid."
As a side note, one thing I say when someone writes a post attacking Liberals in general is that "their liberal bashing is tiresome and played out and has been exposed as a distraction from the failed policies of the right wing. People are looking for real answers to real problems and realize the right has nothing to offer but more of the same rip-off policies of working people and lies and slander.
That's funny, cause I never heard Phelps being called Liberal. I remember him protesting AIDS funerals and Planned Parenthood offices and waving the bible around.
I know at one time when he was protesting at soldiers funerals the media did try to tie him to the anti war movement in a vague way but the Left complained and it made the media look foolish. The media were trying to discredit the anti War movement as being insensitive but when they realized who Phelps was and how desperate they were seen trying to discredit the anti war movement they dropped it.
The left and the anti War movement, which does have some conservatives, never protest at soldiers funerals and realize the soldiers are victims themselves. They are victims of the lies by the government and the tools for corporate profits.
The left never "spit on Vietnam Vets" either. More lies by the right wing.
I find it so ridiculous that Falwell and Roberts would blame 9/11 on American tolerance to Gay people. Man, they are so far from Jesus' teachings it's pathetic.
How about 9/11 was exactly what bin laden said it was. In retaliation for US support of Israel's invasion, bombing and destruction of Lebanon, specifically Israelis brutal siege of Beirut in 1982. Anywhere from 15 to almost 20 thousand people, mostly innocent civilians were killed in the invasion.
In his first tape after the 9/11 attacks bin Laden spoke of the Iraqi sanctions, that killed over a million people and the fact that there are "foreign troops in Palestine." Bin Laden has been writing and speaking about the US domination of the region since WW2. How these "geniuses" could warp the attack to mean it was God's vengence for peoples tolerance of Gays is laughable.
Hugo Chavez is right when he tells Americans to read Chomsky and "stop watching Superman and Batman movies, that make you stupid."
As a side note, one thing I say when someone writes a post attacking Liberals in general is that "their liberal bashing is tiresome and played out and has been exposed as a distraction from the failed policies of the right wing. People are looking for real answers to real problems and realize the right has nothing to offer but more of the same rip-off policies of working people and lies and slander.
quote:Originally posted by lewwaters:
You speak with such authority about Viet Nam, I figure you too must have been there. It helps place things in persepctive as to whether someone is speaking from experience or from misleading books.
As for me, 18 months boots on the ground, US Army, June 1969 to Jan 1971, 67V20, OH-6A/OH-58A Crew Chief/Mechanic, Central Highlands, Qui Nhon, An Son, An Khe, Pleiku.
Incidentally, we didn't go to Viet Nam to "liberate" the people, but to stem the on rushing tide of Communism that ended up enslaving the country resulting in untold millions of innocent deaths of Vietnamese, Cambodians and Laotians. Untold thousands more were lost in the South China Sea fleeing Viet Nam after America turned their backs on the struggling country and its people and opened the door for the Communist takeover.
You do recall the "Boat People," do you not?
I personally met quite a few Vietnamese who more than welcomed us there and were downhearted when we left them high and dry, leading China to refer to America as "a Paper Tiger."
How many more need be abandoned during their time of need? America didn't gain its independence alone. No one does.
The "untold millions of innocent deaths of Vietnamese, Cambodians and Laotians" were the result of the US War against a country that never attacked us. The US war machine killed over 2 million in Vietnam alone and countless thousands as it spread the war to neighboring Cambodia and Laos.
The war was an invasion and occupation behind a puppet government that supported the oligarchy and it's exploitation of the working people. The occupation was opposed by the majority of the Vietnamese people which is why we lost. One of the main things I remember was soldiers saying you never knew who you could trust.
Those who were traitors to their country and collaborated with the US occupiers did try to flee and the US did turn it's back on them. According ex CIA agent John Stockwell, who was a station chief in Vietnam, the policy to abandon the collaborators was done purposely as a propaganda technique to use against the
anti war movement. Others tried to flee for economic reasons. The country had been devastated and economic opportunities were low, resources scant and the hardships great.
The majority of the Vietnams people went on to rebuild their lives and their country into a peaceful nation that has been seeking normal relations with the US. They are anything but "enslaved."
The people of Vietnam spent decades fighting to free themselves from domination by the Japanese, French and the Americans and finally won their independence.
Today the people of Iraq face the same struggle as they fight to free themselves from US occupation and domination.
quote:Originally posted by pba:quote:Originally posted by lewwaters:
You speak with such authority about Viet Nam, I figure you too must have been there. It helps place things in persepctive as to whether someone is speaking from experience or from misleading books.
As for me, 18 months boots on the ground, US Army, June 1969 to Jan 1971, 67V20, OH-6A/OH-58A Crew Chief/Mechanic, Central Highlands, Qui Nhon, An Son, An Khe, Pleiku.
Incidentally, we didn't go to Viet Nam to "liberate" the people, but to stem the on rushing tide of Communism that ended up enslaving the country resulting in untold millions of innocent deaths of Vietnamese, Cambodians and Laotians. Untold thousands more were lost in the South China Sea fleeing Viet Nam after America turned their backs on the struggling country and its people and opened the door for the Communist takeover.
You do recall the "Boat People," do you not?
I personally met quite a few Vietnamese who more than welcomed us there and were downhearted when we left them high and dry, leading China to refer to America as "a Paper Tiger."
How many more need be abandoned during their time of need? America didn't gain its independence alone. No one does.
The "untold millions of innocent deaths of Vietnamese, Cambodians and Laotians" were the result of the US War against a country that never attacked us. The US war machine killed over 2 million in Vietnam alone and countless thousands as it spread the war to neighboring Cambodia and Laos.
PBA - I don't know how you can stand to live in the USA with us being such a murderous, tyrant nation. We have been responsible for all the ones killed in Vietnam and now Iraq. It is our fault that the terrorists attacked the WTC and Pentagon. The only reason terrorists want us dead is because we oppress them.
HOW CAN YOU STAND TO BE AN AMERICAN if we have been so bad for this world?
lewwaters - thank you for your service to this country.
Thank you for the excellent posts on this thread. You obviously speak from experience.
Just like in Iraq, there were many good examples of our troops being welcomed in Vietnam. We helped with schooling and provided supplies to villages where all the men had left to fight leaving the women and children to fend for themselves. These things don't make the news.
Thank you for the excellent posts on this thread. You obviously speak from experience.
Just like in Iraq, there were many good examples of our troops being welcomed in Vietnam. We helped with schooling and provided supplies to villages where all the men had left to fight leaving the women and children to fend for themselves. These things don't make the news.
"The Us war machine killed over 2 million in Vietnam" The untold millions of innocent deaths of Vietnamese, Cambodians, and Laotians, were the results of the US war against a country that never attacked us...",,,PBA
MOS 11B....1968 Tet Offensive...Parrot's Beak Cambodia..
I realize that you are probably young.....you've been educated by the liberal thought processes that are pervasive on most college campuses...most of the guys I was with didnt really want to be there...especially after we found out that our friends back home were marching in the streets against us everyday when we went out on patrol....we were only about 13,000 miles away, but we were a world away in thought....while you were driving your cars, kissing your girls, getting an education and basically living out your young lives without much notice of that little corner of Asia, a lot of us were struggling to stay alive, eating k or c rations, fighting the monsoons, the leaches and charlie......we came back, some of us, and left our buddies in the jungle, or on a slab coming home....
I dont know you but I dont like you...you have not earned the right to post, to write with any kind of authority about the war in Vietnam....I've grown very tired of reading about the mistakes we made, how we lost the war and how ashamed we should be....Vietnam was a turning point in my life....it changed me forever from a happy go lucky kid of 19 to a somber old man with too many regrets....when you write using your numbers and compiling your quotes, just remember these were kids you're talking about..naive kids off farms and inner cities who didnt know what the hell they were getting into, but were raised from the womb to respect the flag of our country and to go where our country says go....I've lived my life hard and earnest because I was living for two people, me and my friend who didnt make it back...w
MOS 11B....1968 Tet Offensive...Parrot's Beak Cambodia..
I realize that you are probably young.....you've been educated by the liberal thought processes that are pervasive on most college campuses...most of the guys I was with didnt really want to be there...especially after we found out that our friends back home were marching in the streets against us everyday when we went out on patrol....we were only about 13,000 miles away, but we were a world away in thought....while you were driving your cars, kissing your girls, getting an education and basically living out your young lives without much notice of that little corner of Asia, a lot of us were struggling to stay alive, eating k or c rations, fighting the monsoons, the leaches and charlie......we came back, some of us, and left our buddies in the jungle, or on a slab coming home....
I dont know you but I dont like you...you have not earned the right to post, to write with any kind of authority about the war in Vietnam....I've grown very tired of reading about the mistakes we made, how we lost the war and how ashamed we should be....Vietnam was a turning point in my life....it changed me forever from a happy go lucky kid of 19 to a somber old man with too many regrets....when you write using your numbers and compiling your quotes, just remember these were kids you're talking about..naive kids off farms and inner cities who didnt know what the hell they were getting into, but were raised from the womb to respect the flag of our country and to go where our country says go....I've lived my life hard and earnest because I was living for two people, me and my friend who didnt make it back...w
quote:Originally posted by barbaros45:
"The Us war machine killed over 2 million in Vietnam" The untold millions of innocent deaths of Vietnamese, Cambodians, and Laotians, were the results of the US war against a country that never attacked us...",,,PBA
MOS 11B....1968 Tet Offensive...Parrot's Beak Cambodia..
I realize that you are probably young.....you've been educated by the liberal thought processes that are pervasive on most college campuses...most of the guys I was with didnt really want to be there...especially after we found out that our friends back home were marching in the streets against us everyday when we went out on patrol....we were only about 13,000 miles away, but we were a world away in thought....while you were driving your cars, kissing your girls, getting an education and basically living out your young lives without much notice of that little corner of Asia, a lot of us were struggling to stay alive, eating k or c rations, fighting the monsoons, the leaches and charlie......we came back, some of us, and left our buddies in the jungle, or on a slab coming home....
I dont know you but I dont like you...you have not earned the right to post, to write with any kind of authority about the war in Vietnam....I've grown very tired of reading about the mistakes we made, how we lost the war and how ashamed we should be....Vietnam was a turning point in my life....it changed me forever from a happy go lucky kid of 19 to a somber old man with too many regrets....when you write using your numbers and compiling your quotes, just remember these were kids you're talking about..naive kids off farms and inner cities who didnt know what the hell they were getting into, but were raised from the womb to respect the flag of our country and to go where our country says go....I've lived my life hard and earnest because I was living for two people, me and my friend who didnt make it back...w
Sir, I don't know if you spent time in Vietnam or not. So many have claimed that they have when they have not. I've had brothers that served in the United States Marine Corps and I'll let you wonder about me for a while as to whether I served or not because I love to get posts like yours because it's a challange as to whether you really served in Vietnam or not. And one of the questions I would like to ask you is what branch of service did you serve in Vietnam? What year did you enlist or was drafted? Can you describe some of the area's as to where you were stationed in Vietnam? How many men in your platoon? How many people were injured in your platoon and how many were killed in your platoon? Just answer a few of those questions for me if you would and we will have a great discussion about this. This will be fun. You underestimate me. I think I'm a little bit smarter than the average bear. Oh, and by the way, I remember Vietnam. I'm not of today's generation. I'm of that era. So, get back with me on your answers and let me see if I can't learn from you. And as far as you not liking me, that's fine. No love lost because I don't think I like you either.
I was born in 1950's and was in high school during the 60's and remember the war well. It was very controversial at time and every one had an opinion about it.
I grew up in a fairly large city and began to see the older kids in the neighborhood come back from the war changed from the "happy go lucky" kids who played ball in the school yard to being cold and hard adults with a "scary gleam" in their eyes. These guys I used to look up to now scared me and they would stick their finger in my chest and say "Stay the F.... out of Vietnam." When I was in my second year of high school my friend's older brother was killed in Vietnam.
Yes, they took innocent kids that trusted their government and media, which backed the war in the mid 60's and never questioned the lies, and sent them to fight and die.
It was a US occupation of a country that never attacked us and had actually had asked for our help to free itself from French Colonialism in the 50's. Instead we tried to take France's role and dominate the country. They actually based their constitution on ours along with our Declaration of Independence.
You blame others instead of the ones who you trusted and who lied to you and sent you there in the first place,that is if you went. It's the youth of today who's minds are poisoned with the lies from right wing and their hate radio that rewrote the story of Vietnam as Reagan's "noble cause." Go down to the Wall in Washington and asked yourself why? What was the reason for all these deaths? Go see Vets that came back missing limbs and ask yourself why?
Maybe you have "grown tired" of reading about the lies and mistakes of the Vietnam War but though the saying may sound corny it's true. "Those who don't learn from history's mistakes will repeat them."
Today the government and media are repeating the lies and sucking up another generation of innocent kids who go trust their government, media, and kids listening to people like you, and sending them to fight in Iraq believing they are fighting for a Noble Cause, but it's just another lie.
Today I continue to speak out for the youth and the working people of America tp stop the lies and the killing.
The "untold millions of innocent deaths of Vietnamese, Cambodians and Laotians" were the result of the US War against a country that never attacked us. The US war machine killed over 2 million in Vietnam alone and countless thousands as it spread the war to neighboring Cambodia and Laos.
Pure leftist spin.
The North Vietnamese did finally admit that we killed millions of their troops. The weekly body counts everyone said were made up proved to be understatements. The killing mentioned came about at the hands of the Communists AFTER we left.
If spreading the war to Cambodia disturbs you, maybe you should look at who really spread it there by attacking the South through and from there. Then again, the Cambodian government at the time allowed them to freely operate from there.
Laos suffered a Communist incursion at the hands of the Communists long before the US was involved in the fighting in Viet Nam, from the Viet Minh.
The war was an invasion and occupation behind a puppet government that supported the oligarchy and it's exploitation of the working people. The occupation was opposed by the majority of the Vietnamese people which is why we lost. One of the main things I remember was soldiers saying you never knew who you could trust.
Wrong again.
Diem was neither a puppet of the US nor a very fair leader. We protected him from assassination attempts up until the time he, being part of the minority Catholic ruling class, began oppressing the majority Buddhists, resulting in the now famous scenes of Buddhist Monks setting themselves on fire. Through the CIA, Kennedy decided to stop protecting Diem and allowed the CIA to encourage a coup de tat to oust Diem from power. He did not expect Diem and his brother to be assassinated.
Incidentally, “WE” didn’t lose Viet Nam, “YOU” did. We left Viet Nam undefeated on the battlefield. After we left, promising continued support for a free Viet Nam, the Democrat led Congress passed the ‘bipartisan’ Case-Church Amendment in June of 1973, effectively denying any and all support or help to South Viet Nam, paving the way for North Viet Nam to violate the Paris Peace Accords and conquer South Viet Nam.
If the “majority of the Vietnamese” so opposed our presence, as you state, why were so many fighting to be evacuated on any ship, airplane or helicopter they grab as the ‘benevolent’ North Vietnamese Communist tanks rolled into Saigon and later as the “Boat People?”
How does anyone in any war “know who to trust?”
Those who were traitors to their country and collaborated with the US occupiers did try to flee and the US did turn it's back on them. According ex CIA agent John Stockwell, who was a station chief in Vietnam, the policy to abandon the collaborators was done purposely as a propaganda technique to use against the anti war movement. Others tried to flee for economic reasons. The country had been devastated and economic opportunities were low, resources scant and the hardships great.
Have you ever spoken to any Vietnamese? Or, do you just get your information from left wing propaganda?
Apparently, Stockwell missed some things in Viet Nam. Like, Ho Chi Minh, a lifelong Communist, trained in Soviet Union and took control of North Vietnam by fear. He assassinated political rivals, and removed competition until he was the only representative of Vietnamese nationalism. Under his leadership, the North Vietnamese Army sustained stunning casualties. He and his successor, Ton Duc Thang, were willing to sacrifice as many Vietnamese as it took to ensure their subsequent victory.
Stockwell is but one person who ran a CIA intelligence-gathering post in Vietnam and did not become a Station Chief until afterwards in Angola. Still, he spent 13 years in the CIA and has made quite a name for himself with the left. Few others pay him much mind.
If you care to see just who really decimated Viet Nam, compare it to South Korea, where the left did not bring about a “cut and run” and abandon an ally tactic. Isn’t it odd that South Korea thrives, while North Korea doesn’t? In fact, Viet Nam after the takeover by the Communists resembles North Korea in several ways.
The majority of the Vietnams people went on to rebuild their lives and their country into a peaceful nation that has been seeking normal relations with the US. They are anything but "enslaved."
Following their victory in 1975, the communists, hailed as liberators by their sympathizers, put more than 1 million people in concentration camps, appropriated property, nationalized all means of production, evicted people from their homes and stripped people of their savings. Before the end of the war, South Vietnam was at par with other developing countries in the region. Now, after 30 years of "liberation", Vietnam ranks with the poorest and most corrupt countries in the world.
After 30 years of peace, intellectuals, artists, Buddhist monks, Catholic priests, tribal people, even communist war heroes, are subject to arrest, torture, harassment and imprisonment for peacefully demanding freedom and democracy. The Montagnards in the Central Highlands have been especially targeted for decimation.
The people of Vietnam spent decades fighting to free themselves from domination by the Japanese, French and the Americans and finally won their independence.
Truth be known, Viet Nam’s struggles between North and South date as far back as 207 BC. Without addressing the lengthy history of that time, I’ll just say that the French became involved in the ongoing fighting in the 1700s and installed Colonial Rule. Other than the years under Japanese occupation, the French pretty much ruled Viet Nam. After the massive defeat the French suffered in Diem Bin Phu, they decided enough and began withdrawing after a cease-fire was signed in Geneva.
Elections mandated between the North and South in the cease-fire were to take place within two years, but never did. Ho Chi Minh, already a staunch Communist, had been installed as leader in the North while Bo Dai was installed in the South. Diem was brought back by emperor Bo Dai as Prime Minister and through strong-arm tactics, became the “elected” President in 1955, defeating Bo Dai. Diem proved he wasn’t going to be a “puppet” ruler, doing things his way.
Several reasons have been given for the elections not taking place. One was the massive influx of refugees, some 850,000, from the North to the South after Communist rule was installed. The South, which had not signed the Geneva Accords, did not feel the Communists in the North would allow fair elections. In January 1957, the International Control Commission (ICC), comprising observers from India, Poland, and Canada, agreed with this perception, reporting that neither South nor North Vietnam had honored the armistice agreement.
A suggested book to read. “Unheralded Victory” by Mark W. Woodruff.
Today the people of Iraq face the same struggle as they fight to free themselves from US occupation and domination.
Spoken like a true Socialist. Do you visit Iraqi blog sites? I do. While they prefer America not be there, as we would if foreign troops were here, they also agree America can’t leave until they are strong enough to fight off Al Qaeda and other radicals groups.
For “occupying and dominating” the country, they sure didn’t listen to us about not executing Saddam, did they? He was tried, convicted and executed by Iraqis, even as the current administration recommended against it.
The left never "spit on Vietnam Vets" either. More lies by the right wing.
Really? Feel free to visit the Swift vets forum where we have several news articles listed and dating back into the late 1960s documenting spitting incidents. Lembecke didn’t look very hard before making his assertions in historical revision. Swift vets - The Spitting Myth
Pure leftist spin.
The North Vietnamese did finally admit that we killed millions of their troops. The weekly body counts everyone said were made up proved to be understatements. The killing mentioned came about at the hands of the Communists AFTER we left.
If spreading the war to Cambodia disturbs you, maybe you should look at who really spread it there by attacking the South through and from there. Then again, the Cambodian government at the time allowed them to freely operate from there.
Laos suffered a Communist incursion at the hands of the Communists long before the US was involved in the fighting in Viet Nam, from the Viet Minh.
The war was an invasion and occupation behind a puppet government that supported the oligarchy and it's exploitation of the working people. The occupation was opposed by the majority of the Vietnamese people which is why we lost. One of the main things I remember was soldiers saying you never knew who you could trust.
Wrong again.
Diem was neither a puppet of the US nor a very fair leader. We protected him from assassination attempts up until the time he, being part of the minority Catholic ruling class, began oppressing the majority Buddhists, resulting in the now famous scenes of Buddhist Monks setting themselves on fire. Through the CIA, Kennedy decided to stop protecting Diem and allowed the CIA to encourage a coup de tat to oust Diem from power. He did not expect Diem and his brother to be assassinated.
Incidentally, “WE” didn’t lose Viet Nam, “YOU” did. We left Viet Nam undefeated on the battlefield. After we left, promising continued support for a free Viet Nam, the Democrat led Congress passed the ‘bipartisan’ Case-Church Amendment in June of 1973, effectively denying any and all support or help to South Viet Nam, paving the way for North Viet Nam to violate the Paris Peace Accords and conquer South Viet Nam.
If the “majority of the Vietnamese” so opposed our presence, as you state, why were so many fighting to be evacuated on any ship, airplane or helicopter they grab as the ‘benevolent’ North Vietnamese Communist tanks rolled into Saigon and later as the “Boat People?”
How does anyone in any war “know who to trust?”
Those who were traitors to their country and collaborated with the US occupiers did try to flee and the US did turn it's back on them. According ex CIA agent John Stockwell, who was a station chief in Vietnam, the policy to abandon the collaborators was done purposely as a propaganda technique to use against the anti war movement. Others tried to flee for economic reasons. The country had been devastated and economic opportunities were low, resources scant and the hardships great.
Have you ever spoken to any Vietnamese? Or, do you just get your information from left wing propaganda?
Apparently, Stockwell missed some things in Viet Nam. Like, Ho Chi Minh, a lifelong Communist, trained in Soviet Union and took control of North Vietnam by fear. He assassinated political rivals, and removed competition until he was the only representative of Vietnamese nationalism. Under his leadership, the North Vietnamese Army sustained stunning casualties. He and his successor, Ton Duc Thang, were willing to sacrifice as many Vietnamese as it took to ensure their subsequent victory.
Stockwell is but one person who ran a CIA intelligence-gathering post in Vietnam and did not become a Station Chief until afterwards in Angola. Still, he spent 13 years in the CIA and has made quite a name for himself with the left. Few others pay him much mind.
If you care to see just who really decimated Viet Nam, compare it to South Korea, where the left did not bring about a “cut and run” and abandon an ally tactic. Isn’t it odd that South Korea thrives, while North Korea doesn’t? In fact, Viet Nam after the takeover by the Communists resembles North Korea in several ways.
The majority of the Vietnams people went on to rebuild their lives and their country into a peaceful nation that has been seeking normal relations with the US. They are anything but "enslaved."
Following their victory in 1975, the communists, hailed as liberators by their sympathizers, put more than 1 million people in concentration camps, appropriated property, nationalized all means of production, evicted people from their homes and stripped people of their savings. Before the end of the war, South Vietnam was at par with other developing countries in the region. Now, after 30 years of "liberation", Vietnam ranks with the poorest and most corrupt countries in the world.
After 30 years of peace, intellectuals, artists, Buddhist monks, Catholic priests, tribal people, even communist war heroes, are subject to arrest, torture, harassment and imprisonment for peacefully demanding freedom and democracy. The Montagnards in the Central Highlands have been especially targeted for decimation.
The people of Vietnam spent decades fighting to free themselves from domination by the Japanese, French and the Americans and finally won their independence.
Truth be known, Viet Nam’s struggles between North and South date as far back as 207 BC. Without addressing the lengthy history of that time, I’ll just say that the French became involved in the ongoing fighting in the 1700s and installed Colonial Rule. Other than the years under Japanese occupation, the French pretty much ruled Viet Nam. After the massive defeat the French suffered in Diem Bin Phu, they decided enough and began withdrawing after a cease-fire was signed in Geneva.
Elections mandated between the North and South in the cease-fire were to take place within two years, but never did. Ho Chi Minh, already a staunch Communist, had been installed as leader in the North while Bo Dai was installed in the South. Diem was brought back by emperor Bo Dai as Prime Minister and through strong-arm tactics, became the “elected” President in 1955, defeating Bo Dai. Diem proved he wasn’t going to be a “puppet” ruler, doing things his way.
Several reasons have been given for the elections not taking place. One was the massive influx of refugees, some 850,000, from the North to the South after Communist rule was installed. The South, which had not signed the Geneva Accords, did not feel the Communists in the North would allow fair elections. In January 1957, the International Control Commission (ICC), comprising observers from India, Poland, and Canada, agreed with this perception, reporting that neither South nor North Vietnam had honored the armistice agreement.
A suggested book to read. “Unheralded Victory” by Mark W. Woodruff.
Today the people of Iraq face the same struggle as they fight to free themselves from US occupation and domination.
Spoken like a true Socialist. Do you visit Iraqi blog sites? I do. While they prefer America not be there, as we would if foreign troops were here, they also agree America can’t leave until they are strong enough to fight off Al Qaeda and other radicals groups.
For “occupying and dominating” the country, they sure didn’t listen to us about not executing Saddam, did they? He was tried, convicted and executed by Iraqis, even as the current administration recommended against it.
The left never "spit on Vietnam Vets" either. More lies by the right wing.
Really? Feel free to visit the Swift vets forum where we have several news articles listed and dating back into the late 1960s documenting spitting incidents. Lembecke didn’t look very hard before making his assertions in historical revision. Swift vets - The Spitting Myth
imho, thank you. But, the thanks go to those who today are volunteering to fight terror wherever it needs to be fought.
In the meantime, we need to cover their six and fight the enemy from within.
Unlike the Vietnamese Communists, todays enemy won't be content to just subject Iraq or Afghanistan to their cruel regime. The survival of Western civilization hinges on the outcome of this one.
In the meantime, we need to cover their six and fight the enemy from within.
Unlike the Vietnamese Communists, todays enemy won't be content to just subject Iraq or Afghanistan to their cruel regime. The survival of Western civilization hinges on the outcome of this one.
quote:lewwaters
I hope this does what it should do, and clear the text of your message, it can be read elsewhere.
THIS IS THE ONLY LINE I AM INTERESTED IN QUOTING.
quote:Incidentally, “WE” didn’t lose Viet Nam, “YOU” did. We left Viet Nam undefeated on the battlefield. After we left, promising continued support for a free Viet Nam, the Democrat led Congress passed the ‘bipartisan’ Case-Church Amendment in June of 1973, effectively denying any and all support or help to South Viet Nam, paving the way for North Viet Nam to violate the Paris Peace Accords and conquer South Viet Nam.
And that statement is correct ONLY if you can define what winning was to be. WE DID NOT LOOSE THE WAR. WE QUIT FIGHTING IT. We were there for NO DEFINED PURPOSE.
The same is true of the War in Iraq, and we are going to end up with the same result. WE WILL STOP FIGHTING, AND THE IRAQI PEOPLE WILL GET ON WITH PUTTING A GOVERNMENT TOGETHER. We will just have to accept that the new government of Iraq, like the new government of Vietnam will seek aid and support from some nation or group of nations NOT INCLUDING THE USA.
And that statement is correct ONLY if you can define what winning was to be. WE DID NOT LOOSE THE WAR. WE QUIT FIGHTING IT. We were there for NO DEFINED PURPOSE.
Our "defined purpose" was to block the tide of spreading communism. While I agree that we didn't lose Viet Nam, it is the left that continually cries about losing it and some seem to think it was proper.
The same is true of the War in Iraq, and we are going to end up with the same result. WE WILL STOP FIGHTING, AND THE IRAQI PEOPLE WILL GET ON WITH PUTTING A GOVERNMENT TOGETHER. We will just have to accept that the new government of Iraq, like the new government of Vietnam will seek aid and support from some nation or group of nations NOT INCLUDING THE USA.
We will stop fighting if the left gets their way, again. Unlike Viet Nam, todays enemies there aren't interested in merely ruling Iraq, these radicals are desiring world domination, much like they tried several centuries ago.
Leaving opens Iraq up to becoming over ran with a Taliban style regime that will once again allow terrorist training camps, align themselves closer with Iran and Ahmanutjob's desire to rule the entire mid-east.
If we abandon Iraq, as we did Viet Nam, the only thing between us and the terrorists will be Israel, who too many on the left also have abandoned.
If you feel terrorists are fighting us because we are in Iraq, read this article from Australia and ask why is Al Qaeda targeting France, who strongly opposes every step we take;
Al-Qaeda in ‘plot to attack France’
Our "defined purpose" was to block the tide of spreading communism. While I agree that we didn't lose Viet Nam, it is the left that continually cries about losing it and some seem to think it was proper.
The same is true of the War in Iraq, and we are going to end up with the same result. WE WILL STOP FIGHTING, AND THE IRAQI PEOPLE WILL GET ON WITH PUTTING A GOVERNMENT TOGETHER. We will just have to accept that the new government of Iraq, like the new government of Vietnam will seek aid and support from some nation or group of nations NOT INCLUDING THE USA.
We will stop fighting if the left gets their way, again. Unlike Viet Nam, todays enemies there aren't interested in merely ruling Iraq, these radicals are desiring world domination, much like they tried several centuries ago.
Leaving opens Iraq up to becoming over ran with a Taliban style regime that will once again allow terrorist training camps, align themselves closer with Iran and Ahmanutjob's desire to rule the entire mid-east.
If we abandon Iraq, as we did Viet Nam, the only thing between us and the terrorists will be Israel, who too many on the left also have abandoned.
If you feel terrorists are fighting us because we are in Iraq, read this article from Australia and ask why is Al Qaeda targeting France, who strongly opposes every step we take;
Al-Qaeda in ‘plot to attack France’
quote:Originally posted by imho:
PBA - I don't know how you can stand to live in the USA with us being such a murderous, tyrant nation. We have been responsible for all the ones killed in Vietnam and now Iraq. It is our fault that the terrorists attacked the WTC and Pentagon. The only reason terrorists want us dead is because we oppress them.
HOW CAN YOU STAND TO BE AN AMERICAN if we have been so bad for this world?
I have a question for you imho how can you stand to support a war that was started on lies, is being fought by people who think the mission is to take out Muslim Terrorists, that has killed near 50 times as many people as there were ever terrorists, has destroyed the reputation of the USA as a law abiding nation, has touche off a new arms race, puts all Americans At risk anywhere beyond our borders, generates vast fear in the people of the country, and IS NOT LIKELY TO ACHIEVE IT'S GOAL REGARDLESS OF HOW LONG WE FIGHT?
quote:how can you stand to support a war that was started on lies, is being fought by people who think the mission is to take out Muslim Terrorists, that has killed near 50 times as many people as there were ever terrorists, has destroyed the reputation of the USA as a law abiding nation, has touche off a new arms race, puts all Americans At risk anywhere beyond our borders, generates vast fear in the people of the country, and IS NOT LIKELY TO ACHIEVE IT'S GOAL REGARDLESS OF HOW LONG WE FIGHT?
1. It was not started on lies. Nearly every Democrat and foreign intelligence agreed Saddam was a danger. Even Hillary Clinton, in April 2004, on the Larry King Show said, "The consensus was the same, from the Clinton administration to the Bush administration," she said. "It was the same intelligence belief that our allies and friends around the world shared.”
2. If their mission isn’t to “take out Muslim terrorists,” why is it that is what they are doing?
3. Please document the claim of “50 times as many people as there were terrorists.”
4. America’s reputation was damaged when we abandoned allies from Bay of Pigs, Viet Nam, Lebanon, Somalia, the first Gulf War and it is being further eroded as the world contemplates us once again, waltzing away leaving a country to flounder.
5. The arms race in the Middle East is out of fear of the Iranian build-up, not the US.
6. Americans have been at risk ever since 1979 when Carter did nothing to stand up the terrorists then and all their subsequent attacks on American interests abroad and two on our own soil. Pulling the cover over your heads won’t make them go away.
7. Vast fear? In whom? The left blamed Bush because there was no warning of 9/11 and now, as he fights terror and intercepts it, the left opposes that as well. When will thee be enough attacks for the elft to wake up that we had war declared on us in 1979?
8. The “goal” can be met, but not as long as the anti-liberty left continues to embolden our enemies again and support the wrong side. Like North Viet Nam, they are waiting on us to cut tail and run, inflicting as many casualties as they can in the meantime to keep public sentiment being eroded to hasten our withdrawal.
Viet Nam showed the entire world that although they cannot defeat our Military, they can defeat America by playing to the anti-liberty left.
quote:Originally posted by EdEKit:quote:lewwaters
I hope this does what it should do, and clear the text of your message, it can be read elsewhere.
THIS IS THE ONLY LINE I AM INTERESTED IN QUOTING.quote:Incidentally, “WE” didn’t lose Viet Nam, “YOU” did. We left Viet Nam undefeated on the battlefield. After we left, promising continued support for a free Viet Nam, the Democrat led Congress passed the ‘bipartisan’ Case-Church Amendment in June of 1973, effectively denying any and all support or help to South Viet Nam, paving the way for North Viet Nam to violate the Paris Peace Accords and conquer South Viet Nam.
And that statement is correct ONLY if you can define what winning was to be. WE DID NOT LOOSE THE WAR. WE QUIT FIGHTING IT. We were there for NO DEFINED PURPOSE.
The same is true of the War in Iraq, and we are going to end up with the same result. WE WILL STOP FIGHTING, AND THE IRAQI PEOPLE WILL GET ON WITH PUTTING A GOVERNMENT TOGETHER. We will just have to accept that the new government of Iraq, like the new government of Vietnam will seek aid and support from some nation or group of nations NOT INCLUDING THE USA.
Yep the good old lies of the Swift Vets, The same folks that told all the lies on Kerry.
pba -
Sorry, but I am not a member of the Swift Vets.
As to "lies," even Kerry's campaign had to admit his 'TINS' were considerably less than accurate, especially Christmas '68 in Cambodia while "Nixon" was saying we had no troops there. Must have forgotten that Nixon wasn't president, yet.
Odder still that the left claims to support the troops and complains about the right mistreating a Veteran, but has no problem slandering and condemning over 250 highly decorated combat Veterans who completed FULL tours, not a mere 4 months.
quote:Yep the good old lies of the Swift Vets, The same folks that told all the lies on Kerry.
Sorry, but I am not a member of the Swift Vets.
As to "lies," even Kerry's campaign had to admit his 'TINS' were considerably less than accurate, especially Christmas '68 in Cambodia while "Nixon" was saying we had no troops there. Must have forgotten that Nixon wasn't president, yet.
Odder still that the left claims to support the troops and complains about the right mistreating a Veteran, but has no problem slandering and condemning over 250 highly decorated combat Veterans who completed FULL tours, not a mere 4 months.
quote:Originally posted by imho:
This thread is PROOF POSITIVE - Liberal dems are DEMANDING that this is VIETNAM all over again. YOU are the ones making it into Vietnam.
It is not. It is in no way related.
How long can you "peace, love, dope" groupies hold on to Vietnam and use it for political gain?
You already have groups picketing our soldiers funerals, refusing to provide goods if used by soldiers, and now pushing congress to underfund the troops to force a withdrawal JUST TO TURN AROUND AND SAY it was another Vietnam.
Now I remember why I don't frequent this forum too often.
Sorry, IMHO, That was NOT what even was in my mind wanting to know stats..
How in the heck can any of US make this a Vietnam???? The News Media is doing that for us.... even on FAUX!!! lo
quote:Originally posted by lewwaters:
pba -quote:We are calling it another Vietnam because it is. Our soldiers were not greeted as liberators
How long was your tour? Army or Marines? MOS?
Lew, what does any of that have to do with anything???? People have the RIGHT to think and read and write what they want...
The thing is, we had NO business in Vietnam (summerizing here) and NO business in IRAQ... That is a fact that all the media is agreeing with... now no one knows how to stop it now... the escalation is tremendous and still, everyone is clamboring around TRYING to find a fix... a fix that should never have even happened...
Even the Bin Laden's of this world wasn't there til WE got there, now they are rearing their fangs which really scares the heck out of everyone I have heard speak about it.
War with the middle east is dangerous, very very dangerous... to say the least.
OUR COURSE in the beginning, to get Bin Laden is where we should have LEFT it.