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Pastor Joe Wright's "Prayer Of Repentance"

Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
Hi to my Forum Friends,

Recently an e-mail titled "A Pastor With GUTS" has been actively shared on the internet by many of my Friends. But, the photo which accompanies the e-mail seems to be the late Senator John Warner -- and not Pastor Joe Wright. While Warner may have had more movie star looks and had been married to Elizabeth Taylor -- I will stay with the real Pastor Joe Wright, shown in the photo below.

While I greatly applaud Pastor Joe's prayer message, to the Kansas State Legislature -- and through the miracle of cyberspace, to the whole world; I did not want to just pass on what I read in the e-mails without verification. So, I have gone to the web site of the church where he was then the senior pastor, Central Christian Church in Wichita, Kansas -- and to Pastor Joe's current ministry web site: Forgiving Love Ministries. Pastor Joe Wright in now following his God-given passion for saving the lives of unborn babies -- and is actively doing everything he can to slow or stop America's Infanticide, abortion.

Information relevant to this story:

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Forgiving Love Ministries - Pastor Joe W. Wright
http://forgivingloveministries.com/

Many of you have been introduced to Pastor Wright (Senior Pastor for nearly 20 years at Central Christian Church in Wichita, Kansas) by way of the internet or through an e-mail with these words, “This pastor has GUTS!” He received this title due to the “Prayer Of Repentance” he prayed in 1996 before the Kansas State Legislature where a number of politicians walked out on him, in protest.

The next day, radio broadcaster Paul Harvey featured the story on his radio program heard around the nation and most of you know “the rest of the story.” He had the largest positive response in his, then, 32-year broadcast history. Many now call it “the prayer that won’t die,” perhaps because it is more relevant today than it was back then! Even now, hardly a week passes that Brother Joe (as he is known to most) doesn’t receive inquiries concerning the prayer.

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Pro-Life Endeavors
http://forgivingloveministries...prolife/prolife.html

Brother Joe has been deeply involved with “Choices Medical Clinic” in Wichita, Kansas, since its inception. He believes that “Choices” has proven to be the best and most productive way to deal with the difficulties presented through a crisis pregnancy.

Thus, he has recently accepted the position of Ambassador for the clinic, traveling throughout Kansas and the nation, promoting its ministry and striving to help others replicate its success. Brother Joe wants to help! He knows that taking the life of a child is never the right choice! Abortion brings death, pain, sorrow, and guilt. But, Christ offers life, love, forgiveness, and restoration! It’s never too late. Choose Christ…choose life!

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THE PRAYER OF REPENTANCE -- Before the Kansas State Legislature - 1996
By Pastor Joe W. Wright
http://www.ccc.org/NewsNow/Joe...epentancePrayer.html

This is the text of the original prayer delivered January 23, 1996, by Pastor Joe Wright to the Kansas House of Representatives in Topeka.

Heavenly Father, we come before you today to ask your forgiveness and seek your direction and guidance.

We know your Word says, "Woe to those who call evil good," but that's exactly what we've done.

We have lost our spiritual equilibrium and inverted our values.

We confess that we have ridiculed the absolute truth of your Word and called it moral pluralism.

We have worshipped other gods and called it multiculturalism.

We have endorsed perversion and called it an alternative lifestyle.

We have exploited the poor and called it the lottery.

We have neglected the needy and called it self-preservation.

We have rewarded laziness and called it welfare.

We have killed our unborn and called it choice.

We have shot abortionists and called it justifiable.

We have neglected to discipline our children and called it building esteem.

We have abused power and called it political savvy.

We have coveted our neighbors' possessions and called it ambition.

We have polluted the air with profanity and pornography and called it freedom of expression.

We have ridiculed the time-honored values of our forefathers and called it enlightenment.

Search us, O God, and know our hearts today; try us and see if there be some wicked way in us; cleanse us from every sin and set us free. Guide and bless these men and women who have been sent here by the people of Kansas, and who have been ordained by you, to govern this great state. Grant them your wisdom to rule and may their decisions direct us to the center of your will.

I ask it in the name of your Son, the living Savior, Jesus Christ. Amen.

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Central Christian Church: 8-Point Statement of Faith
http://www.ccc.org/WeBelieve/StatementofFaith.html

We Believe the Bible to be the only inspired, infallible, and authoritative Word of God.

We Believe there is one God, eternally existent in three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

We Believe in the deity of our Lord Jesus Christ, His virgin birth, sinless life, miracles, atoning death on the cross, bodily resurrection, bodily ascension into heaven, and His personal return once again in power and glory.

We Believe that for the salvation of lost and sinful man, regeneration by the Holy Spirit is absolutely essential. That salvation cannot be gained by human effort, but only through God's grace in the redemption He provided in Jesus Christ, a redemption which is responded to by faith and which leads to a life devoted to obeying God.

We Believe that repentant believers in Christ should be baptized in water, by immersion (the Biblical form of baptism), in obedience to Christ.

We Believe in the present ministry of the Holy Spirit by whose indwelling the Christian is enabled to live a Godly life.

We Believe in the resurrection of both the saved and the lost: they that are saved unto the resurrection of life and they that are lost unto the resurrection of ****ation.

We Believe that, because all believers are spiritually united in the Lord Jesus Christ, we should cooperate in all possible ways in God's work with our fellow believers, both those among us and elsewhere, loving and being patient with one another in our differences.

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Central Christian Church: Statement On Abortion
Issued by the Church Elders
http://www.ccc.org/WeBelieve/AbortionStatement.html

On June 6, 1989 the elders of Central Christian Church issued a unanimous statement of belief that abortion is wrong and grieves God.

We affirm that abortion is a sin. The sixth commandment is: "You shall not murder" (Exodus 20:13). Murder is the intentional killing of another innocent human being. Not only do both common sense and scientific evidence define the unborn baby as a human being, but holy Scriptures make it clear that this is God's definition from the earliest moment, as in this statement from the Psalms:

"My frame was not hidden from you when I as made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depth of the earth, your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be." Psalms
139:15-16

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us of our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness" (1 John 1:9). This means that He forgives those who first come to Christ and those in Christ who penitently confess their sins. He forgives both those who have broken His law and those who have stood idly by while His law has been broken and thus, have condoned the sin of abortion.

We elders are asking God to forgive us for our own sins of apathy and indifference concerning abortion and other evils attacking our society. Alongside our pastors, and with the leading of the Holy Spirit, we now call the body of Christ at Central Christian Church to earnest daily prayer and to Godly action.

The actions that we may take might include educating others, giving physical and spiritual aid and comfort to those in need, giving financially, meeting in public places for prayer and witness against abortion, uniting with the whole body of Christ to encourage each other, and attempting to peacefully prevent abortion. Not all are called to the same method of action, but all are called to take action as they are led by God.

We pray that, as God's people respond in prayer and action, this abomination will be removed from our city, our state, and our nation, to the glory of God!

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This, to the best of my knowledge, is the true story of Pastor Joe W. Wright's "Prayer Of Repentance" before the Kansas State Legislature in 1996. My prayer is that this prayer, or one very similar, would be prayed in every city, state, and federal body of Legislators in America and around the world. This is of utmost importance to America and to the world; that we return to being a prayerful nation.

But, realizing the secular and anti-God influence prevalent in most political arenas today; we know we are fighting an uphill battle. However, with our God nothing is impossible -- as Jesus Christ tells us in Matthew 19:26, "And looking at them Jesus said to them, 'With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.'"

It is also my prayer that every Christian ministry, church, Bible study, Sunday School class, prayer group -- every Christian who has a web site or ministry blog -- will commit to posting that ministry's Biblical Statement of Beliefs, Statement of Faith, Biblical Doctrinal Beliefs, or whatever you want to call it -- on your web site or blog. It should define what your ministry believes and teaches about the Bible, God, Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit, Salvation, Faith, and Heaven and Hell.

Any time I find a ministry new to me, the first thing I look for is their Statement of Biblical Beliefs -- what they believe and what they teach. A few years ago, I found the web site of a ministry new to me, a church in the Mid-West; but, could not find their Statement Of Beliefs. I sent them an e-mail asking about this. Their response in an e-mail was, "We do not post our Biblical Doctrinal Beliefs, because we do not want to offend anyone."

My Friend, that definitely OFFENDS me. And, I feel very comfortable in saying that it also offends God.

It is also my prayer that every Christian ministry, church, Bible study, Sunday School class, prayer group -- every Christian who has a web site or ministry blog -- will commit to posting that ministry's Position On Abortion where no one who visits your web site or blog can miss it.

From the beginning, I have had our Statement of Beliefs posted on our Christian Ministry Blog. Today, I intend to post our Position On Abortion there also. Will you do the same on your web site and/or blog?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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thenagelthenagelPost Master
quote:


We have lost our spiritual equilibrium and inverted our values.

yes, i have. i believe in god now. is that wrong?
quote:

We confess that we have ridiculed the absolute truth of your Word and called it moral pluralism.

i don't know what moral pluralism, but i've never called anything that.
quote:

We have worshipped other gods and called it multiculturalism.

no, i haven't.
quote:

We have endorsed perversion and called it an alternative lifestyle.

no, i haven't
quote:

We have exploited the poor and called it the lottery.

no i haven't.
quote:

We have neglected the needy and called it self-preservation.

nope, not that either.
quote:

We have rewarded laziness and called it welfare.

sorry, wrong again.
quote:

We have killed our unborn and called it choice.

never had an abortion. don't plan to ever have one.
quote:

We have shot abortionists and called it justifiable.

nope. haven't shot any one.
quote:

We have neglected to discipline our children and called it building esteem.

wrong again. you're not doing well here, revrunt joe.
quote:

We have abused power and called it political savvy.

Pff... one has to have power before one can abuse it. another miss.
quote:

We have coveted our neighbors' possessions and called it ambition.

sorry.. i don't even know my neighbors, much less what they possess.
quote:

We have polluted the air with profanity and pornography and called it freedom of expression.

i'm not a broadcaster, i haven't polluted anything with porn and profanity.
quote:

We have ridiculed the time-honored values of our forefathers and called it enlightenment.

wrong again. ignore, yes, leave behind, yes, ridicule? nah.

Sorry.. Epic fail. but thanks for playing.
FM Former Member
I don't know who the "we" to whom he is referring, but hope he's not speaking about the American population at large. American Christians have done no such thing, as a group in general.
Wrong, wrong, wrong.
Perhaps a more appropriate prayer of repentance, that does not cite "broad spectrum collaborative sins, that do not apply to the majority of the Faithful to pray is this:


O my God, I am heartfully sorry for having offended thee, and I detest all my sins because of Thy just punishment, but most of all because I have offended Thee my God, Who is all good and deserving of all my love. I firmly resolve, with the help of Thy grace, to sin no more, and to avoid the near occasion of sin. Amen

To me, that is a true prayer of repentance.
Last edited by Former Member
Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
I don't know who the "we" to whom he is referring, but hope he's not speaking about the American population at large. American Christians have done no such thing, as a group in general. Wrong, wrong, wrong. Perhaps a more appropriate prayer of repentance, that does not cite "broad spectrum collaborative sins, that do not apply to the majority of the Faithful to pray is this:

"O my God, I am heartily sorry for having offended thee, and I detest all my sins because of Thy just punishment, but most of all because I have offended Thee my God, Who is all good and deserving of all my love. I firmly resolve, with the help of Thy grace, to sin no more, and to avoid the near occasion of sin. Amen" To me, that is a true prayer of repentance.

Hi VP,

It is doubtful that anyone could look seriously at what is happening in Washington DC, and as a direct result, throughout all of America -- and not see the national decay which is continuing to grow. We see our national leader bowing to the Arab kings who are supporting terrorism in around the world; we see a young, inexperienced president who runs to the Arab nations and declares that America is no longer a Christian nation; we see an administration which is turning their backs on our long time ally, Israel, just to placate his chosen friends in the Arab world.

We see an administration which will designate a MONTH to celebrating the gay lifestyle -- but, will not spend ONE DAY in prayer for our nation. We see a president who spent twenty years being tutored by a minister who stood in the pulpit and blasphemed the name of God, who took God's name in vain -- in the pulpit.

We see an administration which is very Pro-Choice, Pro-Abortion, and Anti-Life.

We see an administration who is doing everything in their power to give the national sovereignty of America over to the United Nations.

My Friend, all of this is happening just within the last 1 1/2 years. Pastor Joe Wright's prayer was given in 1996. So, you can see the progression of secularism, globalism, and anti-God persuasion which has transpired just since his prayer -- in our government and, by default, across America.

VP, your prayer is nice -- and verbatim right out of the Roman Catholic Missal -- the Act of Contrition. Which do you believe pleases God more -- repeating a man written prayer by rote -- or speaking directly to Him from your heart?

Can you picture being with the person you love -- trying to express your deepest love for this person -- and, having to stop in the middle to recheck your written script?

I have to believe that a prayer such as this one, or a similar prayer in each person's own words, will be more pleasing to God than one prayed by rote from a man written Prayer Book:

"Lord God, I have sinned against you and I am deeply sorry. Please forgive my sins and give me the strength to reject Satan's temptations in the future. Guard me, Lord, and guard my Christian walk, that I may always do what is pleasing to You and only that which will glorify You. I pray this in the holy name of Jesus Christ, my Lord and Savior. Amen"

But, VP, regardless of where we get the words of our prayers -- the important thing is that we do repent and seek His forgiveness.

My Friend, let me ask you a very serious question, and I am not trying to be facetious -- I am very serious. Is there ANYTHING I might write which you will not disagree with and try to refute, even when your gun is not loaded?

Even though we may have different doctrinal beliefs -- we are supposed to be on the same team. Why not pull together like team mates? That is how games are won. And, there is no game more serious than sharing the Gospel of Jesus Christ and helping a person lost in the world find his/he way to Jesus Christ as personal Lord and Savior. Can we work together?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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JankinonyaJankinonyaOld Faithful
One more thing Bill....

quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:

VP, your prayer is nice -- and verbatim right out of the Roman Catholic Missal -- the Act of Contrition. Which do you believe pleases God more -- repeating a man written prayer by rote -- or speaking directly to Him from your heart?

Can you picture being with the person you love -- trying to express your deepest love for this person -- and, having to stop in the middle to recheck your written script?

I have to believe that a prayer such as this one, or a similar prayer in each person's own words, will be more pleasing to God than one prayed by rote from a man written Prayer Book:


So you refute VP's opinion on Wrights political prayer....and then you say...





quote:
My Friend, let me ask you a very serious question, and I am not trying to be facetious -- I am very serious. Is there ANYTHING I might write which you will not disagree with and try to refute, even when your gun is not loaded?


Uhmmm isn't that what YOU just did?

quote:
Even though we may have different doctrinal beliefs -- we are supposed to be on the same team. Why not pull together like team mates? That is how games are won. And, there is no game more serious than sharing the Gospel of Jesus Christ and helping a person lost in the world find his/he way to Jesus Christ as personal Lord and Savior. Can we work together?


I don't get the feeling that VP thinks of this as a game. I had long ago realized thats what most of this is to you. Have you ever heard of the saying "There is no i in team" If you want others to want to join your team you should interpret that bit of wisdom.

I Bless you, have a nice day. Smiler
Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
Hi Jan,

For years, Deep has been our Resident Atheist. Are you trying to steal his crown? You have a hard row to hoe; after all Deep is well entrenched.

Jan, although you are doing a good job of being an atheist -- I still have to vote for Deep as Number One Resident Atheist. He still speaks Dawkinese better than you. But, keep working on it and you might catch old Deep.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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JankinonyaJankinonyaOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Hi Jan,

For years, Deep has been our Resident Atheist. Are you trying to steal his crown? You have a hard row to hoe; after all Deep is well entrenched.

Jan, although you are doing a good job of being an atheist -- I still have to vote for Deep as Number One Resident Atheist. He still speaks Dawkinese better than you. But, keep working on it and you might catch old Deep.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill


Wow! I am flattered. I remember Deep very fondly and he is missed greatly. To be compared to the great DF makes me realize I am doing something right. Thank you Bill.

I will keep working, maybe I should actually read Dawkins since you keep recommending his work.
Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by Jankinonya:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Hi Jan,

For years, Deep has been our Resident Atheist. Are you trying to steal his crown? You have a hard row to hoe; after all Deep is well entrenched.

Jan, although you are doing a good job of being an atheist -- I still have to vote for Deep as Number One Resident Atheist. He still speaks Dawkinese better than you. But, keep working on it and you might catch old Deep.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Wow! I am flattered. I remember Deep very fondly and he is missed greatly. To be compared to the great DF makes me realize I am doing something right. Thank you Bill.

I will keep working, maybe I should actually read Dawkins since you keep recommending his work.

Hi Jan,

I am happy you are pleased. Since you will not read the Bible; you might as well read Dawkins.

You miss Deep? Just follow the monkey droppings on the Religion Forum. He is not hard to find. Deep is sort of like the old tar pits -- just keeps bubbling up and leaving dark spots.

Hey, maybe you two can book yourselves as "Spot and the Blotter" -- the ultimate comedy act.

Y'all come back now, ya heah?

Bill

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Shoals ResidentShoals ResidentHall of Famer
thenagel,

From some of your post, yes, you are guilty of some of the things that in this post you deny. Possibly you call some of these things by different names but the meaning is the same. Perhaps you are not personally guilty of all of the sins Pastor Joe referred to but our nation certainly is. When we do not stand up and say these things are wrong then we are guilty of condoning them by our silence. Is it that Bill posted this that you feel the need to deny these things or do you truly believe that you and our nation are guiltless?
FM Former Member
No, Bill, I don't feel that we are team mates. WHile we have some beliefs in common, you have insulted and blasphemed my church so often, and rejected Apostolic Tradition, calling it "liberal", etc. You even pasted an article stating that most Catholics will leave their church to find Jesus.
I don't think "teammates" do that kind of thing. You have no respect for the doctrines of the Apostolic church, so how can we possibly be team mates? You block me at every point, and, by the way, still have an outstanding question to answer.
So I offered a general prayer of contrition. So what? WHY you would even take issue with that speaks volumes of your (lack of) respect for anything Catholic.
FM Former Member
quote:
VP, your prayer is nice -- and verbatim right out of the Roman Catholic Missal -- the Act of Contrition. Which do you believe pleases God more -- repeating a man written prayer by rote -- or speaking directly to Him from your heart?


And by the way, any prayer is pleasing to God, as long as it is done quietly, not "showy" and with a sincere and contrite heart. Jesus gave us a prayer that we say all the time BY ROTE.
I firmly believe that God welcomes all prayer- rote, spontaneous, meditation, whatever. THe key is not in the words, but in the state of the penitents heart..........
thenagelthenagelPost Master
quote:
Originally posted by Shoals Resident:
thenagel,

From some of your post, yes, you are guilty of some of the things that in this post you deny. Possibly you call some of these things by different names but the meaning is the same. Perhaps you are not personally guilty of all of the sins Pastor Joe referred to but our nation certainly is. When we do not stand up and say these things are wrong then we are guilty of condoning them by our silence. Is it that Bill posted this that you feel the need to deny these things or do you truly believe that you and our nation are guiltless?


i cannot speak for the nation.
i can only speak of my heart.
i have never shot anyone.
i have never had an abortion. ( i'm a dude).
etc etc.

i read that post as relating to me personaly. i haven't done, nor voted for, nor encouraged anything written in it.

you can call me guilty all you like, it means little to me.
Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by thenagel:
i read that post as relating to me personaly. i haven't done, nor voted for, nor encouraged anything written in it. you can call me guilty all you like, it means little to me.

Hi Nagel,

That prayer was aimed, not at just individuals; but, at America as a nation. And everything he said in that prayer was true in 1996 -- and even more true in our current administration.

You say you haven't personally done any of these things. But, what have you done to correct these things in our country? Have you worked to get the right kind of leaders elected, leaders who will support family-based Godly influenced government?

Or have you, by default, or by choice -- worked to get our current Socialist government elected?

Have you done anything to spread the influence of Godly Biblical influence in our society? Or, have you, by neglect or default, just turned your back as America becomes more and more secular, more and more violent?

Yes, Nagel, there is a lot that ALL of us should be doing to bring America back on track to being the Christian nation it once was -- and can still be.

Or, you can turn your back and throw our nation to the dogs. The choice is up to the American people. And, I pray that all Americans keep this in mind come November.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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JankinonyaJankinonyaOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by Jankinonya:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:


We see an administration which will designate a MONTH to celebrating the gay lifestyle -- but, will not spend ONE DAY in prayer for our nation.


Why do you keep telling this lie? You have been shown more than once the evidence that this is simply not a true statement.


Bill are you ready to admit you are wrong about this and have lied once again? How will you ever get into heaven if you don't? I am concerned about your eternal life.

I bless you, have a nice day
Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by Jankinonya:
quote:
Originally posted by Jankinonya:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
We see an administration which will designate a MONTH to celebrating the gay lifestyle -- but, will not spend ONE DAY in prayer for our nation.

Why do you keep telling this lie? You have been shown more than once the evidence that this is simply not a true statement.

Bill are you ready to admit you are wrong about this and have lied once again? How will you ever get into heaven if you don't? I am concerned about your eternal life.

Hi Jan,

He DID recognize the GAY MONTH -- and he refused to acknowledge the DAY OF PRAYER.

Where is the lie in that?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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thenagelthenagelPost Master
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by thenagel:
i read that post as relating to me personaly. i haven't done, nor voted for, nor encouraged anything written in it. you can call me guilty all you like, it means little to me.

Hi Nagel,

That prayer was aimed, not at just individuals; but, at America as a nation. And everything he said in that prayer was true in 1996 -- and even more true in our current administration.

You say you haven't personally done any of these things. But, what have you done to correct these things in our country? Have you worked to get the right kind of leaders elected, leaders who will support family-based Godly influenced government?


what have i done?
i vote.
and i don't want a Godly influenced government. here in alabama we get the 'godly influenced' goverment rammed right down our throats, dictating what consenting MARRIED adults may and may not do in their bedrooms.
because the lardbutts in mongomery decided they were immoral, a married person may not legally buy ..ahem.. marital aids in this state, nor have them shipped here, even if one or more people in the relationship is suffering from some level of sexual dysfunction.

in other words, this godly alabama goverment outlawed sex toys, because they didn't like them.

this insane peice of legislature acctualy put alabama on internation newspapers. the front page. i saw a copy of the London Times with huge headline " Only In Alabama!"
as if we weren't enough of a joke to the rest of the states, these friggin guys made us a world wide punchline.

no, bill, i don't WANT a godly influenced goverment.
i want one that is inspired and influenced by the us constitution, and one that is proud of being American.

(i expect the reason for this law is that one of these guys came home and found his wife useing one, and it made him feel ' insignificant' as a man, so he got them outlawed.)
how are they gonan enforce this?
Cop: LAdy! Put down The Rabbit and come out with your pants up!

just pure meddling stupidity.
the churchs would not allow the government tell them how to run their worship, i don't want churches telling the goverment how to run the country.

that doesn't mean i mind someone who believes, strongly, having the job, it means i don't want him or her decideing how to run the country based on those beliefs.

quote:


Have you done anything to spread the influence of Godly Biblical influence in our society? Or, have you, by neglect or default, just turned your back as America becomes more and more secular, more and more violent?


Ahh... so being godly means peace and love and happiness?
then would you care to explain the spanish inquisition, the auto de fé and the (multiple)crusades?
would you also like to explain all the people burned alive as witches?

quote:


Or, you can turn your back and throw our nation to the dogs. The choice is up to the American people. And, I pray that all Americans keep this in mind come November.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill


i have no use for Obama, but it's because i don't like the way he's doing the job. it has nothing to do with his theological belief.
this november, i'll be voting against any incumbent i can identify, just because.
the more their ads take abotu their faith, the less likly i'll be to vote for them.
i want people to help run the country based on the constitution, not on the bible.
what they do in their home is their business. i don't care if they hold prayer meetings every day, or if they sit around in a sand box, naked, covered in apricot jam while they watch jerry lewis movies and sing i'm a little teapot. either path is fine with me. i don't care. just pull the drapes please.
what they do in their time is their business. what they do in congress is MY business, and they need to make sure they follow the rules the constitution laid out.
Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
Hi Nagel,

You tell me, "and i don't want a Godly influenced government. here in alabama we get the 'godly influenced' goverment (sic) rammed right down our throats, dictating what consenting MARRIED adults may and may not do in their bedrooms. because the lard butts in mongomery (sic) decided they were immoral, a married person may not legally buy ..ahem.. marital aids in this state, nor have them shipped here, even if one or more people in the relationship is suffering from some level of sexual dysfunction."

I am truly sorry you cannot buy a vibrator in Alabama. However, since Deep still lives in California -- maybe he can buy one and mail it to you.

Then, you tell me, "no, bill, i don't WANT a godly influenced goverment (sic). i want one that is inspired and influenced by the us constitution, and one that is proud of being American."

Now, this is an area I can help you. All of our American founding documents are directly based upon the Bible or greatly influenced by the Bible.

We start with the Mayflower Compact (1620): "IN THE NAME OF GOD, AMEN. We, whose names are underwritten, the Loyal Subjects of our dread Sovereign Lord King James, by the Grace of God, of Great Britain, France, and Ireland, King, Defender of the Faith, &c. Having undertaken for the Glory of God, and Advancement of the Christian Faith,. . ."

http://americanhistory.about.c...ca/a/may_compact.htm

The Mayflower Compact was the foundational document for the Plymouth Colony. The fact that it was a covenant whereby the settlers would subordinate their rights to follow laws passed by the government to ensure protection and survival made it a unique document. As previously stated, it set a precedent and was indeed an influential document for the founding fathers as they created the US Constitution.

Declaration of Independence (1776) "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights,. . ."

What influenced the writers of our Constitution? The writings of Sir William Blackstone, Member British Parliament, greatly influenced the writers of our Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. Below are excerpts from the article:

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Blackstone's View of Natural Law and Its Influence on the
Formation of American Declaration of Independence and the Constitution http://www.sullivan-county.com/deism/blackstone.htm

One of the greatest ironies of American history is the influence of Sir William Blackstone on the American War for Independence. Blackstone, though most famous for his Commentaries on the Laws of England, also enjoyed a distinguished career as a prominent member of Parliament, faithfully supporting the Crown and stingingly criticizing the Colonies for their insurrection and disloyalty to their mother country. Contemporaneous with his tenure in Parliament (1761–1770), Blackstone put the finishing touches on the Commentaries, which ironically served to defeat the cause of British sovereignty for which he so loyally fought. Little did Blackstone realize that his project to systemize the English common law would fuel the American flames of desire for independence from the Crown.

I. the influence of Blackstone on the Declaration of Independence A. The Source of Law

While Blackstone was certainly not the first to set forth a concept termed "natural law," his philosophy was distinguishable from others by his identification of the source of natural law. Cicero and Grotius, for instance, believed that the law of nature, which is binding upon all humans just as surely as gravity affects all of nature, is nothing more than the voice of reason. 5 In sharp contrast to this humanistic view of natural law, Blackstone believed that the law of nature is not only binding on all men, but that it is dictated by God Himself.

Thomas Jefferson reflected Black-stone's view when he used the phrase "law of nature and of nature's God" in the Declaration. This phrase indicates that Jefferson understood the difference between Blackstone's theory and that of Grotius and Cicero. The law of nature refers to the will of God observable in creation while the law of nature's God refers to the divine law which is revealed through the Scriptures.

The Constitution (1789):

One of the greatest ironies of American history is the influence of Sir William Blackstone on the American War for Independence. Blackstone, though most famous for his Commentaries on the Laws of England, also enjoyed a distinguished career as a prominent member of Parliament, faithfully supporting the Crown and stingingly criticizing the Colonies for their insurrection and disloyalty to their mother country. Contemporaneous with his tenure in Parliament (1761–1770), Blackstone put the finishing touches on the Commentaries, which ironically served to defeat the cause of British sovereignty for which he so loyally fought. Little did Blackstone realize that his project to systemize the English common law would fuel the American flames of desire for independence from the Crown.

The influential Blackstone said that the right of private property “consists in the free use, enjoyment, and disposal of all [personal] acquisitions.” While he spoke of the "sacred and inviolable rights of private property," he equivocated concerning the origin and nature of property rights. He indicated that the "origin of private property is probably found in nature," but that much of this natural liberty was sacrificed in order to enjoy society's protection of it. Apparently he was uncertain whether to adopt a law of nature position or a social compact theory.

Blackstone turned to the revealed law of God for "the only true and solid foundation of man's dominion over external things." He referred to Genesis chapter one wherein the Creator gave man "dominion over all the earth."

It is not coincidental that the ideas in the Declaration of Independence and Constitution were espoused less than a decade after Blackstone's Commentaries first appeared in print in England. The correlation between the philosophy of America's founding documents and the Commentaries is worthy of careful exploration.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

So, you see, Nagel, America was founded on Christian principle -- and the First Continental Congress allocated funds to purchase 20,000 Bibles from Europe to be distributed throughout the Thirteen Colonies. Why? Because they knew that the Bible would have a positive influence upon the lives and morals of the people -- even those who were not believers.

Yes, America was founded as a Christian nation -- and, in spite of our Liberal government leaders today -- and, ignoring what our young president told his friends in the Arab world -- America is still a Christian nation.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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thenagelthenagelPost Master
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
America is still a Christian nation.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill


i said i didn't have a problem with that.
didn't i say that?
pretty sure i said that.

i also said i didn't want their belief to be the basis they try to run the country on.

because when it comes down to it, they might not believe the same thing i do, so i might not like there take on the issue.

lets say the next president is very deeply catholic - would you want him basing political decisions on the catechism?
nope, you'd be screaming abotu the godless heathen in the white house, just like you are about obama now.

so, all in all, it's best if they keep their religion out of the office.
House of DavidHouse of DavidHall of Famer
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Hi to my Forum Friends,

Recently an e-mail titled "A Pastor With GUTS" has been actively shared on the internet by many of my Friends. But, the photo which accompanies the e-mail seems to be the late Senator John Warner -- and not Pastor Joe Wright. While Warner may have had more movie star looks and had been married to Elizabeth Taylor -- I will stay with the real Pastor Joe Wright, shown in the photo below.

While I greatly applaud Pastor Joe's prayer message, to the Kansas State Legislature -- and through the miracle of cyberspace, to the whole world; I did not want to just pass on what I read in the e-mails without verification. So, I have gone to the web site of the church where he was then the senior pastor, Central Christian Church in Wichita, Kansas -- and to Pastor Joe's current ministry web site: Forgiving Love Ministries. Pastor Joe Wright in now following his God-given passion for saving the lives of unborn babies -- and is actively doing everything he can to slow or stop America's Infanticide, abortion.

Information relevant to this story:

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Forgiving Love Ministries - Pastor Joe W. Wright
http://forgivingloveministries.com/

Many of you have been introduced to Pastor Wright (Senior Pastor for nearly 20 years at Central Christian Church in Wichita, Kansas) by way of the internet or through an e-mail with these words, “This pastor has GUTS!” He received this title due to the “Prayer Of Repentance” he prayed in 1996 before the Kansas State Legislature where a number of politicians walked out on him, in protest.

The next day, radio broadcaster Paul Harvey featured the story on his radio program heard around the nation and most of you know “the rest of the story.” He had the largest positive response in his, then, 32-year broadcast history. Many now call it “the prayer that won’t die,” perhaps because it is more relevant today than it was back then! Even now, hardly a week passes that Brother Joe (as he is known to most) doesn’t receive inquiries concerning the prayer.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Pro-Life Endeavors
http://forgivingloveministries...prolife/prolife.html

Brother Joe has been deeply involved with “Choices Medical Clinic” in Wichita, Kansas, since its inception. He believes that “Choices” has proven to be the best and most productive way to deal with the difficulties presented through a crisis pregnancy.

Thus, he has recently accepted the position of Ambassador for the clinic, traveling throughout Kansas and the nation, promoting its ministry and striving to help others replicate its success. Brother Joe wants to help! He knows that taking the life of a child is never the right choice! Abortion brings death, pain, sorrow, and guilt. But, Christ offers life, love, forgiveness, and restoration! It’s never too late. Choose Christ…choose life!

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

THE PRAYER OF REPENTANCE -- Before the Kansas State Legislature - 1996
By Pastor Joe W. Wright
http://www.ccc.org/NewsNow/Joe...epentancePrayer.html

This is the text of the original prayer delivered January 23, 1996, by Pastor Joe Wright to the Kansas House of Representatives in Topeka.

Heavenly Father, we come before you today to ask your forgiveness and seek your direction and guidance.

We know your Word says, "Woe to those who call evil good," but that's exactly what we've done.

We have lost our spiritual equilibrium and inverted our values.

We confess that we have ridiculed the absolute truth of your Word and called it moral pluralism.

We have worshipped other gods and called it multiculturalism.

We have endorsed perversion and called it an alternative lifestyle.

We have exploited the poor and called it the lottery.

We have neglected the needy and called it self-preservation.

We have rewarded laziness and called it welfare.

We have killed our unborn and called it choice.

We have shot abortionists and called it justifiable.

We have neglected to discipline our children and called it building esteem.

We have abused power and called it political savvy.

We have coveted our neighbors' possessions and called it ambition.

We have polluted the air with profanity and pornography and called it freedom of expression.

We have ridiculed the time-honored values of our forefathers and called it enlightenment.

Search us, O God, and know our hearts today; try us and see if there be some wicked way in us; cleanse us from every sin and set us free. Guide and bless these men and women who have been sent here by the people of Kansas, and who have been ordained by you, to govern this great state. Grant them your wisdom to rule and may their decisions direct us to the center of your will.

I ask it in the name of your Son, the living Savior, Jesus Christ. Amen.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Central Christian Church: 8-Point Statement of Faith
http://www.ccc.org/WeBelieve/StatementofFaith.html

We Believe the Bible to be the only inspired, infallible, and authoritative Word of God.

We Believe there is one God, eternally existent in three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

We Believe in the deity of our Lord Jesus Christ, His virgin birth, sinless life, miracles, atoning death on the cross, bodily resurrection, bodily ascension into heaven, and His personal return once again in power and glory.

We Believe that for the salvation of lost and sinful man, regeneration by the Holy Spirit is absolutely essential. That salvation cannot be gained by human effort, but only through God's grace in the redemption He provided in Jesus Christ, a redemption which is responded to by faith and which leads to a life devoted to obeying God.

We Believe that repentant believers in Christ should be baptized in water, by immersion (the Biblical form of baptism), in obedience to Christ.

We Believe in the present ministry of the Holy Spirit by whose indwelling the Christian is enabled to live a Godly life.

We Believe in the resurrection of both the saved and the lost: they that are saved unto the resurrection of life and they that are lost unto the resurrection of ****ation.

We Believe that, because all believers are spiritually united in the Lord Jesus Christ, we should cooperate in all possible ways in God's work with our fellow believers, both those among us and elsewhere, loving and being patient with one another in our differences.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Central Christian Church: Statement On Abortion
Issued by the Church Elders
http://www.ccc.org/WeBelieve/AbortionStatement.html

On June 6, 1989 the elders of Central Christian Church issued a unanimous statement of belief that abortion is wrong and grieves God.

We affirm that abortion is a sin. The sixth commandment is: "You shall not murder" (Exodus 20:13). Murder is the intentional killing of another innocent human being. Not only do both common sense and scientific evidence define the unborn baby as a human being, but holy Scriptures make it clear that this is God's definition from the earliest moment, as in this statement from the Psalms:

"My frame was not hidden from you when I as made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depth of the earth, your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be." Psalms
139:15-16

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us of our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness" (1 John 1:9). This means that He forgives those who first come to Christ and those in Christ who penitently confess their sins. He forgives both those who have broken His law and those who have stood idly by while His law has been broken and thus, have condoned the sin of abortion.

We elders are asking God to forgive us for our own sins of apathy and indifference concerning abortion and other evils attacking our society. Alongside our pastors, and with the leading of the Holy Spirit, we now call the body of Christ at Central Christian Church to earnest daily prayer and to Godly action.

The actions that we may take might include educating others, giving physical and spiritual aid and comfort to those in need, giving financially, meeting in public places for prayer and witness against abortion, uniting with the whole body of Christ to encourage each other, and attempting to peacefully prevent abortion. Not all are called to the same method of action, but all are called to take action as they are led by God.

We pray that, as God's people respond in prayer and action, this abomination will be removed from our city, our state, and our nation, to the glory of God!

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

This, to the best of my knowledge, is the true story of Pastor Joe W. Wright's "Prayer Of Repentance" before the Kansas State Legislature in 1996. My prayer is that this prayer, or one very similar, would be prayed in every city, state, and federal body of Legislators in America and around the world. This is of utmost importance to America and to the world; that we return to being a prayerful nation.

But, realizing the secular and anti-God influence prevalent in most political arenas today; we know we are fighting an uphill battle. However, with our God nothing is impossible -- as Jesus Christ tells us in Matthew 19:26, "And looking at them Jesus said to them, 'With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.'"

It is also my prayer that every Christian ministry, church, Bible study, Sunday School class, prayer group -- every Christian who has a web site or ministry blog -- will commit to posting that ministry's Biblical Statement of Beliefs, Statement of Faith, Biblical Doctrinal Beliefs, or whatever you want to call it -- on your web site or blog. It should define what your ministry believes and teaches about the Bible, God, Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit, Salvation, Faith, and Heaven and Hell.

Any time I find a ministry new to me, the first thing I look for is their Statement of Biblical Beliefs -- what they believe and what they teach. A few years ago, I found the web site of a ministry new to me, a church in the Mid-West; but, could not find their Statement Of Beliefs. I sent them an e-mail asking about this. Their response in an e-mail was, "We do not post our Biblical Doctrinal Beliefs, because we do not want to offend anyone."

My Friend, that definitely OFFENDS me. And, I feel very comfortable in saying that it also offends God.

It is also my prayer that every Christian ministry, church, Bible study, Sunday School class, prayer group -- every Christian who has a web site or ministry blog -- will commit to posting that ministry's Position On Abortion where no one who visits your web site or blog can miss it.

From the beginning, I have had our Statement of Beliefs posted on our Christian Ministry Blog. Today, I intend to post our Position On Abortion there also. Will you do the same on your web site and/or blog?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill



Smiler Looks like a prayer written by someone else... I thought you didn't like that.
(I'm referring to your comments made to me on the "farewell" thread)
Last edited by House of David
KravenKravenOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
quote:
VP, your prayer is nice -- and verbatim right out of the Roman Catholic Missal -- the Act of Contrition. Which do you believe pleases God more -- repeating a man written prayer by rote -- or speaking directly to Him from your heart?


And by the way, any prayer is pleasing to God, as long as it is done quietly, not "showy" and with a sincere and contrite heart. Jesus gave us a prayer that we say all the time BY ROTE.
I firmly believe that God welcomes all prayer- rote, spontaneous, meditation, whatever. THe key is not in the words, but in the state of the penitents heart..........



Yes veep, In most cases the meditation is more important than the prayer. When you pray it matters
if you mind wonders around everything from football to tomorrow's lunch.

You make a very good point.

Meditation is the most sincere form of prayer. It can lift you on high and nearer to God.
O No!O No!Old Faithful
5 “And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. 6 But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you.

That is from the book of Matthew. I don't think this guy was praying from within a closet. Sounds more like one of the "hypocrites" to me.

Now Bill, take this over to the politics section where it belongs.
Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
Hi David,

You tell us, "Looks like a prayer written by someone else... I thought you didn't like that. (I'm referring to your comments made to me on the "Farewell" thread)"

There is one HUGE difference. This prayer in "Pastor Joe Wright's 'Prayer Of Repentance'" which he wrote and delivered -- was his own prayer, from his heart. Yes, he wrote it before he took the podium; for he knew this was a very special need -- and he wrote from his heart -- what he later delivered to those in the legislative body who needed to hear this message and this petition to God.

And, my comment on it, which you have taken out of context in the "Farewell" discussion is, "My prayer is that this prayer, or one very similar, would be prayed in every city, state, and federal body of Legislators in America and around the world. This is of utmost importance to America and to the world; that we return to being a prayerful nation."

You will notice that I suggest a similar prayer, i.e, one from your own heart -- not one written in the Vatican hundreds of years ago -- that people mindlessly repeat by rote.

And, Kraven, you say, "Yes veep, In most cases the meditation is more important than the prayer. When you pray it matters if you mind wonders around everything from football to tomorrow's lunch. You make a very good point. Meditation is the most sincere form of prayer. It can lift you on high and nearer to God."

Yes, we are instructed in the Bible to both pray to God and to meditate on His Word. This can be done simultaneously -- or it can be done at separate times. I find myself praying frequently -- and at odd times and in odd places. A prayer does not have to be a long drawn out speech. A prayer can be just, "Thank you, Lord!" A prayer can be, "Lord, please watch over my family today and keep them safe and in good health." Or, a prayer can be a time when we take more time to pray for the needs of many.

Every time my wife drives away in her car, I always stand and pray for her until she is out of sight. Why? Because I want God's loving hands around her at all times, especially when driving on California freeways. And, I enjoy the comfort I receive from knowing that I have committed her into God's hands for protection and blessings.

And, I find that taking a shower is a great time to meditate on God, His love for me, and His Word. You would be surprised how many of my writings have come from inspirations I have received while quietly meditating in the shower -- or while shaving, etc. Then, in the evenings, I like to lay in bed, read, and think about the many blessings He has given me today. Yes, Kraven, meditation is very important -- and, it is important to take time to pray after our meditations -- to thank God.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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KravenKravenOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Hi David,

You will notice that I suggest a similar prayer, i.e, one from your own heart -- not one written in the Vatican hundreds of years ago -- that people mindlessly repeat by rote.

And, Kraven, you say, "Yes veep, In most cases the meditation is more important than the prayer. When you pray it matters if you mind wonders around everything from football to tomorrow's lunch. You make a very good point. Meditation is the most sincere form of prayer. It can lift you on high and nearer to God."

Bill


hey dipstick,

Why is it so important to you to go behind people and tell them what they just said? They know better
than you what they said. The bible is a prayer, how old is it? You can't get better prayers than
from the vatican whereas they got them from St.Peter and St.paul and the rest of the guys.

You have no idea about meditation, none. To you there is nothing more important than you.
I bet your dunning God right now for the $100. from the $10. you gave last sunday.
Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by Kraven:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Hi David,

You will notice that I suggest a similar prayer, i.e, one from your own heart -- not one written in the Vatican hundreds of years ago -- that people mindlessly repeat by rote.

And, Kraven, you say, "Yes veep, In most cases the meditation is more important than the prayer. When you pray it matters if you mind wonders around everything from football to tomorrow's lunch. You make a very good point. Meditation is the most sincere form of prayer. It can lift you on high and nearer to God."

Yes, we are instructed in the Bible to both pray to God and to meditate on His Word. This can be done simultaneously -- or it can be done at separate times. I find myself praying frequently -- and at odd times and in odd places. A prayer does not have to be a long drawn out speech. A prayer can be just, "Thank you, Lord!" A prayer can be, "Lord, please watch over my family today and keep them safe and in good health." Or, a prayer can be a time when we take more time to pray for the needs of many.

Then, in the evenings, I like to lay in bed, read, and think about the many blessings He has given me today. Yes, Kraven, meditation is very important -- and, it is important to take time to pray after our meditations -- to thank God.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day, Bill

hey dipstick,

Why is it so important to you to go behind people and tell them what they just said? They know better than you what they said. The bible is a prayer, how old is it? You can't get better prayers than from the vatican whereas they got them from St.Peter and St.paul and the rest of the guys.

You have no idea about meditation, none. To you there is nothing more important than you.
I bet your dunning God right now for the $100. from the $10. you gave last sunday.

KRAVEN, DID YOU LEARN THIS KIND OF RESPONSE IN CATECHISM 101?

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House of DavidHouse of DavidHall of Famer
Bill,

The point is, you were being critical for the sake of being critical. You love feeling superior to others which makes you ineffective at evangelizing.

Your post advocated that people pray Pastor Wright's prayer (you may have given a choice to the reader, to either read Pastor Wright's prayer or their own) But you still advocated that people say his prayer. It's a double standard, by criticizing my prayer (written by someone else) that I thought was beautiful and wanted to share..

I don't have any issue with you being a protestant. I just don't know what made you an anti-catholic bigot.

Your need to feel superior is also very evident.
When I found out about the cartoon you sent to O NO, the one of a woman stuffing her bra. I knew right then I shouldn't waste time and engage in conversation with you.

________________________________________________
Below quote by ONO on 09/13/10 from "who is this man" thread.

So Bill, do you post your stupid cartoons on your website? You know, like the one you threw at me a while back about the woman stuffing her bra with kleenex?
________________________________________________
FM Former Member
mindlessly????
How dare you presume to know what is in the mind of a person in prayer.

You say:
You will notice that I suggest a similar prayer, i.e, one from your own heart -- not one written in the Vatican hundreds of years ago -- that people mindlessly repeat by rote."

I say, you have a lot of nerve, Mr. Gray. What is in my (or anyone's heart) is known to God alone- not you.
For you to claim that "rote" or ancient prayers are mindless is a whole new level of ugly.
Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
Hi David,

You tell me, "Bill, The point is, you were being critical for the sake of being critical. You love feeling superior to others which makes you ineffective at evangelizing."

Jesus taught us, in Matthew 6:7, "And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words."

Isn't that what prewritten prayer are -- just repeating what was written centuries ago? Am I trying to be superior to anyone? No, merely pointing out that prayer is basically just a conversation between you and your Best Friend, Jesus Christ. If you were talking with another friend, let's say, over lunch -- would you use a prewritten script from which you talk? No, you wouldn't. You would share what is in your heart. And, that is what you should be doing when you talk with Jesus Christ -- sharing what is in your heart; not what was written by the Vatican hundreds of years ago.

Am I being critical? No, just being Biblically honest.

Then, you tell me, "Your post advocated that people pray Pastor Wright's prayer (you may have given a choice to the reader, to either read Pastor Wright's prayer or their own) But you still advocated that people say his prayer. It's a double standard, by criticizing my prayer (written by someone else) that I thought was beautiful and wanted to share."

If you will recall -- I suggested that folks pray a similar prayer -- from their hearts. In other words, using the same petitions, the same sentiments, the same desire to see America returned to our Christian roots -- but, each one speaking this prayer from his/her own heart.

The prayer you wrote in "Farewell": was:

V. We adore Thee, O Christ, and we bless Thee.
R. Because by Thy Holy Cross, Thou hast redeemed the world.

Behold, O kind and most sweet Jesus, I cast myself on my knees in Your sight, and with the most fervent desire of my soul, I pray and beseech You that You would impress upon my heart lively sentiments of faith, hope, and charity, with true repentance for my sins, and a firm desire of amendment, while with deep affection and grief of soul I ponder within myself and mentally contemplate Your five most precious Wounds; having before my eyes that which David spoke in prophecy: "They pierced My hands and My feet; they have numbered all My bones."

This is a prewritten prayer right out of the Stations of the Cross ( http://members.core.com/~orcat27/sta15.htm ) which can be prayed by rote, i.e., repetition.

If you really want to honor and talk with your Best Friend, Jesus Christ -- put away your prewritten, repetitious scripts -- and just talk with Him from your heart. Can you not talk with Jesus Christ -- WITHOUT a script?

Next, you tell me, "I don't have any issue with you being a protestant. I just don't know what made you an anti-catholic bigot."

And, I have no problem with you being a Roman Catholic. However, when you do post Roman Catholic teachings on the Religion Forum which are not Biblical -- I will point this out to our Forum Friends. Is this being "anti-Roman Catholic"? No, it is just being Biblically honest. Do I hate Roman Catholics? No. As I have told you before -- I have loved ones who are Roman Catholic. However, if these same questions arose between me and them -- I would be Biblically honest with them also.

Finally, you tell me, "Your need to feel superior is also very evident. When I found out about the cartoon you sent to O NO, the one of a woman stuffing her bra. I knew right then I shouldn't waste time and engage in conversation with you."

Feel superior? No. I am not superior to anyone. However, I AM very blessed by my Lord. I am blessed because He died to offer me eternal salvation -- and, when I accepted His "free gift" of salvation -- I was indwelled and sealed by the Holy Spirit. This means that I have the direct promise of Jesus Christ, "He (Bill Gray, and all Christian believers) who believes HAS ETERNAL LIFE." Wow! And, I have His promise on this. By the way, that was John 6:47.

David, do you mean you did not like my cartoon? Does this mean that all that repetition has dulled your Roman Catholic sense of humor?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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House of DavidHouse of DavidHall of Famer
Bill,

Not all repetition is vain. Consider the prayers spoken of in Revelation 4:8 offered day and night without ceasing: "Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord God Almighty, who was and is and is to come!" Another repetitious prayer pleasing to God is contained in Psalm 136: "For his steadfast love endures for ever." This phrase is repeated over twenty-five times. Finally, Matthew 26:44 tells us that Jesus himself prayed the same prayer three times in the garden in Gethsemane.

It's about the condition of your heart. Bill, you have no right to ASSUME that my prayer is meaningless or lacks something.

If Jesus was against standardized prayers, why did he give us one to pray?

rote prayer is not confined to just Catholics – many Protestant denominations have liturgies and other structured prayers. Even in the least liturgical Protestant denomination the service will have some sort of form and structure – and this form and structure is a form of rote prayer. Individual Christians of all denominations will pray using words which they learned from others – rote prayer is not simply a Catholic practice.

It's about the HEART. Just because someone post a prayer written by someone else. Don't ASSUME they don't have private conversations with God.
It's simply one form of many types of prayer.
CrustyMacCrustyMacOld Faithful
I bet Bill says the Lord's Prayer every week. I might make a small wager that Bill even repeats certain affirmations of faith every week. I won't risk too much cash on those, cause I have no idea what crazy things they do in a congregation which Bill helped establish. Probably something like eating mushrooms to come up with their own version of Revelation.
O No!O No!Old Faithful
Bill, you quoted Matthew 6:7. Did you read verses 5 and 6? Your buddy is being one of the hypocrites, praying for show. Praying because of politics, which is where this thread belongs.

Oh, and you keep posting that picture of President Obama with his hands folded in front of him. It has been proven to you that that picture was taken during the NATIONAL ANTHEM, not during the Pledge of Allegiance. Yet you keep posting it, trying to mislead people. THAT, my friend, is bearing false witness against thy neighbor!
buffalobuffaloPost Master
quote:
cause I have no idea what crazy things they do in a congregation which Bill helped establish. Probably something like eating mushrooms to come up with their own version of Revelation.



crust, that is a typical atheist response; not that you are it but the authority is suspect.

The atheist&Co. seem to never remember where they learned navigation or from whom but are always wanting to be seen as a guide.
House of DavidHouse of DavidHall of Famer
quote:
Originally posted by House of David:
Bill,

Not all repetition is vain. Consider the prayers spoken of in Revelation 4:8 offered day and night without ceasing: "Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord God Almighty, who was and is and is to come!" Another repetitious prayer pleasing to God is contained in Psalm 136: "For his steadfast love endures for ever." This phrase is repeated over twenty-five times. Finally, Matthew 26:44 tells us that Jesus himself prayed the same prayer three times in the garden in Gethsemane.

It's about the condition of your heart. Bill, you have no right to ASSUME that my prayer is meaningless or lacks something.

If Jesus was against standardized prayers, why did he give us one to pray?

rote prayer is not confined to just Catholics – many Protestant denominations have liturgies and other structured prayers. Even in the least liturgical Protestant denomination the service will have some sort of form and structure – and this form and structure is a form of rote prayer. Individual Christians of all denominations will pray using words which they learned from others – rote prayer is not simply a Catholic practice.

It's about the HEART. Just because someone post a prayer written by someone else. Don't ASSUME they don't have private conversations with God.
It's simply one form of many types of prayer.


Smiler
Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
Hi David,

You tell me, "Bill, Not all repetition is vain. Consider the prayers spoken of in Revelation 4:8 offered day and night without ceasing: "Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord God Almighty, who was and is and is to come!"

You are looking at Revelation 4:8 as a prayer. That is not what Scripture tells us, "The four living creatures, each having six wings, were full of eyes around and within. And they do not rest day or night, saying: 'Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, Who was and is and is to come!'"

They were worshiping God and declaring His glory -- not praying. Now, some may view all worship as prayer; that is fine -- for normally, in prayer we do Adore God. Then, we Confess our sins before Him. Then, we offer Thanksgiving for His forgiving our sins and for all the blessings He has given us today. And, then, we come before Him in Supplication seeking His divine intervention in our life and/or the life of a friend or loved one. The acronym ACTS can remind us of the things we need to keep in my when praying.

Of course, in the vision given to John in Revelation 4:8 the four living creatures around the throne of God would be angelic beings -- and need only Adore God and Thank Him for being our God. But, no, I do not see Revelation 4:8 as being prayer, repetitious or otherwise -- just adoration and worship.

Then, you tell me, "Another repetitious prayer pleasing to God is contained in Psalm 136: 'For his steadfast love endures for ever.' This phrase is repeated over twenty-five times."

The Psalms were not prayers, per se, they were more the hymns of David's day. The Hebrew name for the book of Psalms was actually "The Book of Praises" as in Praise songs. In the Latin Vulgate, this was translated as Psalms. Throughout the Psalms, you will see the word "Selah" which means, at different points, Pause, Crescendo, or Musical Interlude. So, again, songs of praise, not prayers.

Next, you tell me, "Finally, Matthew 26:44 tells us that Jesus himself prayed the same prayer three times in the garden in Gethsemane."

David, I am afraid you have confused heartfelt prayer with Prayer Book prayer. What we see here in Matthew 26 is Jesus praying from His heart to God the Father. Jesus Christ knew what lay ahead for Him -- and His human nature was grieved over the coming event of His crucifixion -- yet, being perfect and sinless in every way -- He knew that this was His reason for becoming man like His brethren.

No, David, we see no repetitive prayers -- but, sincere, deeply felt prayers from the heart -- His heart.

Matthew 26:38-39, "Then He said to them, 'My soul is deeply grieved, to the point of death; remain here and keep watch with Me.' And He went a little beyond them, and fell on His face and prayed, saying, 'My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; yet not as I will, but as You will.'

Matthew 26:42, "He went away again a second time and prayed, saying, 'My Father, if this cannot pass away unless I drink it, Your will be done.'"

Matthew 26:43-44, "Again He came and found them sleeping, for their eyes were heavy. And He left them again, and went away and prayed a third time, saying the same thing once more."

And, we are told in 1 Thessalonians 5:16-18, "Rejoice always; pray without ceasing; in everything give thanks; for this is God's will for you in Christ Jesus." However, I do not see this as "reading a prayer" nor do I see it as "praying by rote."

I often pray the same prayer. When my wife drives away in her car -- as I watch her drive away, I pray for her safety and safe return. Every day, I pray that God will watch over and protect my family for another day. Are these repetitive prayers? Well, in the sense that I am praying very similar words, asking the same protection and care for my loved ones -- yes. But, the difference is that these words come sincerely from my heart -- and not from a Prayer Book written in the Vatican 300 years ago.

And, you tell me, It's about the condition of your heart. Bill, you have no right to ASSUME that my prayer is meaningless or lacks something.

You say it is the condition of my heart; I say it is what IS IN my heart. Yes, a subtle difference; yet, the condition of my heart is that I am a child of God, I am a Christ Follower, I am a Christian believer, and I have His promise of eternal life in the presence of God. That is the condition of my heart.

However, at different times, under different circumstance -- what IS IN my heart, what delights and, at times, burdens my heart -- is the meat of my prayers. Most often if it is for my family and their well being. Other times it is for a need of a brother or sister in Christ. And, there will be times when our non-believing Friends and their lost state burdens my heart. This is what is in my heart and this is what is in my prayers.

You ask, "If Jesus was against standardized prayers, why did he give us one to pray?"

He did not give us a "prayer to pray." He gave us a guideline for prayer.

In Matthew 6:7-13, Jesus tells His disciples, and us, "And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words. So do not be like them; for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him. Pray, then, in this way: "Our Father who is in heaven, Hallowed be Your name. . ."

In this prayer example, Jesus teaches us to: Offer adoration to God; honor His name; seek His kingdom; seek His will; ask His forgiveness; ask His help in forgiving those who wrong us; and ask Him to protect us from the temptations of Satan and his world.

This is the guideline offered -- and you will see that it is very similar to the ACTS guideline I gave before. Adore God, Confess our sins, Thank Him for His many blessings, Ask that He provide our needs and protect us and our loved ones -- for another day.

Once again, no repetition -- only sincere, from the heart prayers.

Next, you tell me, "Rote prayer is not confined to just (Roman) Catholics – many Protestant denominations have liturgies and other structured prayers. Even in the least liturgical Protestant denomination the service will have some sort of form and structure – and this form and structure is a form of rote prayer. Individual Christians of all denominations will pray using words which they learned from others – rote prayer is not simply a Catholic practice."

Yes, the Episcopalian church, the American side of the Church of England, the Anglican church -- is very similar to the Roman Catholics in their liturgy and worship service. And, the Lutherans and Presbyterian are more aligned with liturgical worship services. I have always viewed them as stepping stones for leaving the Roman Catholic church. When King Henry divorced the pope and made himself "pope" of the Church of England -- he did not change anything -- except the church leader. So, one would expect the Episcopalian church to be very similar to the Roman Catholic.

When Martin Luther broke away from the Roman Catholic church and wrote his 95 Theses -- he was addressing issues within the Roman Catholic church. However, he, too, maintained much of the Roman Catholic liturgy. So, the Lutheran church is very similar. Not as similar as the Episcopalian; but, still very similar. And, the Presbyterians got a wee bit further away from Rome.

Yet, when you try to say that because the Baptist and other Protestant churches have a program of worship, our worship services are example of the Roman Catholic "prayer by rote" -- that is really stretching your rubber band past the breaking point.

Finally, you tell me, "It's about the HEART. Just because someone post a prayer written by someone else. Don't ASSUME they don't have private conversations with God. It's simply one form of many types of prayer."

I am not saying that Roman Catholics do not pray to God from their hearts. What I am saying is that your prewritten prayers in your Sunday Missals, etc. -- are prayers by rote. Can you honestly tell me that you have never found yourself in mass -- just repeating your written responses on schedule? Can you honestly tell me that you have never noticed anyone else in mass doing the same?

If so, then you must attend a very unusual Roman Catholic church. For, I can tell you, with no hesitation -- that, in the twenty years I attended the Roman Catholic church -- I often did this -- and I often saw others doing it.

And, I will close by asking the question I asked before: If you pray to God, to Jesus Christ, from your heart -- why do you need any prewritten prayers? You know better what is in your heart today -- than some priest who died 300 years ago. Talk to your Savior from your heart, with Adoration, Confession, Thanksgiving, and Supplication, i.e., petitions for your needs of today. That, my Friend, is truly prayer.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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House of DavidHouse of DavidHall of Famer
quote:
I am not saying that Roman Catholics do not pray to God from their hearts. What I am saying is that your prewritten prayers in your Sunday Missals, etc. -- are prayers by rote. Can you honestly tell me that you have never found yourself in mass -- just repeating your written responses on schedule? Can you honestly tell me that you have never noticed anyone else in mass doing the same?


Bill,

Mass is very, very special for me, there are very deep meanings by behind each part of the mass. It's is not responses on schedule for me.
As, for other people are concerned, I am not analyzing their behavior in mass to know whether God has their undivided attention.

My final point is, when you dismissed my prayer, written by someone else, it was presumptuous, and tacky.
KravenKravenOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Hi David,

They were worshiping God and declaring His glory -- not praying.
But, no, I do not see Revelation 4:8 as being prayer, repetitious or otherwise -- just adoration and worship.

The Psalms were not prayers, songs of praise, not prayers.

Next, you tell me, "Finally, Matthew 26:44 tells us that Jesus himself prayed the same prayer three times in the garden in Gethsemane."

David, I am afraid you have confused heartfelt prayer with Prayer Book prayer. What we see here in Matthew 26 is Jesus praying from His heart to God the Father. Jesus Christ knew what lay ahead for Him.

No, David, we see no repetitive prayers -- but, sincere, deeply felt prayers from the heart -- His heart.


And, you tell me, It's about the condition of your heart. Bill, you have no right to ASSUME that my prayer is meaningless or lacks something.

You say it is the condition of my heart; I say it is what IS IN my heart. Yes, a subtle difference; yet, the condition of my heart is that I am a child of God, I am a Christ Follower, I am a Christian believer, and I have His promise of eternal life in the presence of God. That is the condition of my heart.

However, at different times, under different circumstance -- what IS IN my heart, what delights and, at times, burdens my heart -- is the meat of my prayers. Most often if it is for my family and their well being. Other times it is for a need of a brother or sister in Christ. And, there will be times when our non-believing Friends and their lost state burdens my heart. This is what is in my heart and this is what is in my prayers.

You ask, "If Jesus was against standardized prayers, why did he give us one to pray?"

He did not give us a "prayer to pray." He gave us a guideline for prayer.

petitions for your needs of today. That, my Friend, is truly prayer.

Bill


David,

You be sure to tell God what you want everyday, and be sure to say it's form the heart, and not
just stuff you want everyday. All you "Our Father" sayers stop now or Jesus will be mad at you.

Anything in the bible can be read or sung as a prayer. Any conversation or prewritten prayer
is more than welcomed by Jesus.

Never let someone that godless and stupid tell you what is or isn't a prayer. what the person
said above is (in my opinion) a sin against the way God taught us to think or pray.

What you do now is more acceptable to the heavens than what BG does, or the other brain dead.

Freedom to pray.
Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by House of David:
quote:
I am not saying that Roman Catholics do not pray to God from their hearts. What I am saying is that your prewritten prayers in your Sunday Missals, etc. -- are prayers by rote. Can you honestly tell me that you have never found yourself in mass -- just repeating your written responses on schedule? Can you honestly tell me that you have never noticed anyone else in mass doing the same?

Bill, Mass is very, very special for me, there are very deep meanings by behind each part of the mass. It's is not responses on schedule for me.
As, for other people are concerned, I am not analyzing their behavior in mass to know whether God has their undivided attention.

My final point is, when you dismissed my prayer, written by someone else, it was presumptuous, and tacky.

Hi David,

I am not dismissing your attempt at prayer. What I am saying is that THIS prewritten prayer is not YOUR prayer -- it is words written by someone in the Vatican 300+ years ago. They are his words, his prayers -- not yours.

Your prayers come from your heart, your mind -- not the mind of a long dead priest. That is my contention and my belief.

When I pray to God -- I want to tell Him, in my own words, from my own heart -- that I love Him, I worship Him, I adore Him.

Then, I pray for the current needs of my friends, family, community, and nation. That long dead priest can know nothing of these. These are things happening today which I bring before God.

And, then I will ask for my daily needs, not wants as Kraven wants to imply -- but, my daily needs. That, my Friend, is prayer, a conversation with my Best Friend, from my heart, speaking of current adoration and needs.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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CrustyMacCrustyMacOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by House of David:
quote:
I am not saying that Roman Catholics do not pray to God from their hearts. What I am saying is that your prewritten prayers in your Sunday Missals, etc. -- are prayers by rote. Can you honestly tell me that you have never found yourself in mass -- just repeating your written responses on schedule? Can you honestly tell me that you have never noticed anyone else in mass doing the same?

Bill, Mass is very, very special for me, there are very deep meanings by behind each part of the mass. It's is not responses on schedule for me.
As, for other people are concerned, I am not analyzing their behavior in mass to know whether God has their undivided attention.

My final point is, when you dismissed my prayer, written by someone else, it was presumptuous, and tacky.

Hi David,

I am not dismissing your attempt at prayer. What I am saying is that THIS prewritten prayer is not YOUR prayer -- it is words written by someone in the Vatican 300+ years ago. They are his words, his prayers -- not yours.

Your prayers come from your heart, your mind -- not the mind of a long dead priest. That is my contention and my belief.

When I pray to God -- I want to tell Him, in my own words, from my own heart -- that I love Him, I worship Him, I adore Him.

Then, I pray for the current needs of my friends, family, community, and nation. That long dead priest can know nothing of these. These are things happening today which I bring before God.

And, then I will ask for my daily needs, not wants as Kraven wants to imply -- but, my daily needs. That, my Friend, is prayer, a conversation with my Best Friend, from my heart, speaking of current adoration and needs.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill


So, Bill, you don't say the Lord's Prayer, or you do and just cross your fingers?
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