Skip to main content

Replies sorted oldest to newest

I didn't check the links but many democrats and republicans are the same in many ways, they are there for power and influence. The number that really represent the people are small but the last republican congress and this republican administration were one of the most corrupt in history.

Today we have corporate democrats and republicans with only a handful of progressive democrats for the people and even less republican representatives that care about the people.

There is a fundamental difference in philosophies but the old New Deal democrats did a lot of good for the people. FDR was very wealthy and part of the aristocratic class who enjoyed his life of luxury but no president has ever done more to help the American people.

Today we need to build a new party, a labor and peoples party that represent the people.
NashBama
quote:
Today we need to build a new party, a labor and peoples party that represent the people.
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Historically, those parties usually fail in a bad way. Just ask Russia. If you want to see a party like that in action, look up some information on China and their human rights record.

________________________________________________________________________________________________


Both Chinese and Russian revolutions started as a peoples movement based on ending exploitation and oppression and did make some reforms but left out the real democracy. They also used the wars by capitalist western countries to destabilize them as reasons to end democracy and freedom.

Today we have corporate rule and an extreme wealth gap. It was basically the same under FDR where the Robber Barons had gotten control of the political system. FDR got his support from the people who basically took control the democratic party. Much of these movements came from the Labor struggles and the newly formed unions that brought about better and safer working conditions as well as better pay.

The same happened in late 1960's and early to middle 1970's when the Civil Rights Movement and opposition to the Vietnam War swept in reform democrats elected by the people. It forced republicans to follow. We had another mini version of that the last election but the system and process is so corrupted by money many of the real reformers we shut out in the primaries and never even made it to the election.

There is a huge debate on the left that is disgusted with the corruption of both parties as to whether it is better to try to reform the democrats or build a new patry.

I know we need to do something
Bluesman, If you and I agree that a stop light would be a good Idea at a busy intersection, we are alike, even if I am a Satan worshiper and you are a God Fearing Christian. If the issue is protection of American Interests, I would be surprised if any political party was opposed. If it is the protection of Labor Rights and Protections, Democrats and Republicans are VERY different. When it comes to operating the Post Office, both parties want the system to work well. Democrats want to see the postal worker prosper, Republicans want the Post Office to be cheap, even if it means driving Postal workers to drink.

Sure they are similar. Both Parties want a secure nation. Republicans want to provide that one way, Democrats seek another.

I don't understand this concept that the RIGHT way belongs to only one Party.

Look at where the divisions are. Democrats seek a tax system that provides services, and does not crush the middle class. Republicans look to a system that concentrates wealth in a few hands, regardless of the cost to the poor and middle class.

If you want to LIVE LIKE A REPUBLICAN, vote for DEMOCRATS.

If you actually think that every rich man wants to see you prosper, and every poor man is trying to rob you, you will be robbed by the rich, and join the poor.
I agree that both the dems and repubs are corrupt and a third party would be better. I don't agree that it should be another "people's party" or "worker's party". That's just a bad idea.

As for the wealth gap, that's not true. Even communist China has the haves and have nots. The difference with our country is that the poor can move up in society and increase their wealth if they chose to do so and it happens every day. That can't happen in China or countries were wealth is distributed rather than earned.
Great post Ed and I agree.

As far as a peoples party or labor party goes the only reforms and benefits the average workers enjoyed were fought for through organized unions and labor struggles. No party gave them to us. FDR and the democrats followed the lead of the people. Same happened in the 60's and 70's. It is beginning to happen again now. People are fed up. The wealth gap is greater then under the Robber Barons and average Americans are struggling, with both heads of house holds working, just to keep up. Personal debt is up. With every new millionaire that is made there are ten or more families that fall under the poverty line.

Wages are stagnate and declining while productivity is up, profits are up, but the workers are not benefiting.

In China they have developed a middle class who does benefit from the society and they also have new millionaires being made. They use a system of both capitalism and communism. They don't really have democracy and the lower working class in China is now becoming restless also and there have been labor strikes and factory take overs. They are even more militant about it then we are here.

Democracy works from the bottom up and the people need to take control. A labor or peoples party will be the answer if the democratic party cannot be reformed. It is now in the clutches of the corporate class that are selling out the American worker.
The American system is corrupted by money. Party leaders purge independent candidates out of the party in primaries and the democrats and republicans have basically gerrymandered states and districts to divide and concentrate power between them.

If the people cannot break the blockade they will be forced to form a new party.
People being rich has nothing to do with others being poor. Money is not a pie where if someone has a big slice, someone else is left with a small slice. Wages are not stagnate and the middle class is doing fine. I'm middle class, my friends and family are middle class, and we're all doing fine. What hurts the middle class and any class is debt and mismanagement of money. That has nothing to do with others being rich. In this country if you're not happy with what your making, there are plenty of opportunities out there to change. What you are describing is a communist society which is simply a bad idea. I agree we need a third or even a fourth party, but not if it involves socialism or communism.
________________________________________________________________________________________________

NashBama:

People being rich has nothing to do with others being poor. Money is not a pie where if someone has a big slice, someone else is left with a small slice. Wages are not stagnate and the middle class is doing fine. I'm middle class, my friends and family are middle class, and we're all doing fine. What hurts the middle class and any class is debt and mismanagement of money. That has nothing to do with others being rich. In this country if you're not happy with what your making, there are plenty of opportunities out there to change. What you are describing is a communist society which is simply a bad idea. I agree we need a third or even a fourth party, but not if it involves socialism or communism.
_______________________________________________________________________________________________

Although personal experiences can sometimes add insight what is happening to you and your friends does not reflect what the majority of the country is experiencing. Wages for the average worker have been stagnate and declining for years. Actually began under Reagan and raised very slightly under Clinton but have been stagnate for years. It's a fact and the majority of Americans have not seen a raise in years much less one that keeps up with inflation, which is why they have fallen into debt and most house holds now have both parents working, just to keep up. Most raises are very slight and workers are also now forced to give up benefits, like Medical, which alsoeats into their saleries.

Profits for corporations and CEO pay are record highs.

The wealth gap and income gap are a fact and that a CEO makes 300 to 400 times more then the average worker is the reason why wages have not gone up and the middle class is shrinking every day as more families fall into poverty. It is a pie and the workers not getting their fair share.

The loss of jobs is also a fact. We are losing our manufacturing sector and good paying jobs are being lost to countries with sweatshop labor. The small amount of new jobs being created are lower jobs with no benefits which also takes away from workers salaries.

Mismanagement of the economy by the government is what hurts individuals more then anything and Bush's economy is a disaster for working people.

If the current capitalist system is not working for the average person then why should the average worker support it? Our own Declaration of Independence says we have the right to abolish a government that is not serving the people. This capitalist system is not working for the average American and we need to replace it and have every right to do so.
quote:
Although personal experiences can sometimes add insight what is happening to you and your friends does not reflect what the majority of the country is experiencing. Wages for the average worker have been stagnate and declining for years. Actually began under Reagan and raised very slightly under Clinton but have been stagnate for years. It's a fact and the majority of Americans have not seen a raise in years much less one that keeps up with inflation, which is why they have fallen into debt and most house holds now have both parents working, just to keep up. Most raises are very slight and workers are also now forced to give up benefits, like Medical, which alsoeats into their saleries.

Profits for corporations and CEO pay are record highs.

The wealth gap and income gap are a fact and that a CEO makes 300 to 400 times more then the average worker is the reason why wages have not gone up and the middle class is shrinking every day as more families fall into poverty. It is a pie and the workers not getting their fair share.

The loss of jobs is also a fact. We are losing our manufacturing sector and good paying jobs are being lost to countries with sweatshop labor. The small amount of new jobs being created are lower jobs with no benefits which also takes away from workers salaries.

Mismanagement of the economy by the government is what hurts individuals more then anything and Bush's economy is a disaster for working people.

If the current capitalist system is not working for the average person then why should the average worker support it? Our own Declaration of Independence says we have the right to abolish a government that is not serving the people. This capitalist system is not working for the average American and we need to replace it and have every right to do so.


Nope, completely wrong and you did not read my post. Someone having money does not mean that there is not enough for other people. That's a typical communist myth. Money does not work that way. I don't know what country the middle class you're describing is in, but it's not this one. Homes are being built at a record pace, new businesses are starting up all the time, and money is being made. This is what I'm seeing with my own eyes. What you are describing simply is not reality.
quote:
Originally posted by NashBama:
quote:
Although personal experiences can sometimes add insight what is happening to you and your friends does not reflect what the majority of the country is experiencing. <SNIP>


Nope, completely wrong and you did not read my post. Someone having money does not mean that there is not enough for other people. That's a typical communist myth. Money does not work that way. I don't know what country the middle class you're describing is in, but it's not this one. Homes are being built at a record pace, new businesses are starting up all the time, and money is being made. This is what I'm seeing with my own eyes. What you are describing simply is not reality.
You are being too provincial NashBama. Alabama is not the entire economy, and you are only correct about a few of the Southern States.
In the big picture, people and jobs are migrating out of the traditional manufacturing centers. Some of those jobs are not only coming to Alabama, but the area you live in is presently embroiled in a controversy about how to attract some of that economic growth to your area. Wages are rising in Alabama, but they are rising from a point well below the national average. Housing is booming in Alabama, your state's Population is increasing.
You are doing the same thing the Nations Corporations are doing. You're looking out for number one and telling the rest of the country to suck hind tit. Making matters worse, you seem to think that the national government should focus on improving conditions in Alabama while letting Michigan, Illinois, Wisconsin and the whole of the Northeast rust away.
If they had the same power in the US government that Afghanistan or Somalia had, they would have no recourse but to start bombing Alabama. Do you remember the Civil War? The increasing legislative power of the non slave states is what precipitated it. Northern States were gaining legislative power, and threatening the Slave Based agricultural economy of the South. That is the reason the South seceded. It is also the reason segregation replaced slavery, and is the reason that wages in Alabama are still lower than the national average.

But that is a different subject all together.

The Conservative agenda is to maintain a system of cheap labor. The method of maintaining a system of cheap labor is to threaten to close the plants, and move the jobs to locales where labor is plentiful and CHEAP.

Look at the debate, listen to the anti-union rhetoric, consider the source, and realize that you are being indoctrinated into believing that corporations are benevolent, paternal forces, and government must help them prosper, so they can exploit YOU.

If you awaken to those facts of life in this grand old country, you might just start thinking like a progressive Democrat.
quote:
You are being too provincial NashBama. Alabama is not the entire economy, and you are only correct about a few of the Southern States.
In the big picture, people and jobs are migrating out of the traditional manufacturing centers. Some of those jobs are not only coming to Alabama, but the area you live in is presently embroiled in a controversy about how to attract some of that economic growth to your area. Wages are rising in Alabama, but they are rising from a point well below the national average. Housing is booming in Alabama, your state's Population is increasing.
You are doing the same thing the Nations Corporations are doing. You're looking out for number one and telling the rest of the country to suck hind tit. Making matters worse, you seem to think that the national government should focus on improving conditions in Alabama while letting Michigan, Illinois, Wisconsin and the whole of the Northeast rust away.
If they had the same power in the US government that Afghanistan or Somalia had, they would have no recourse but to start bombing Alabama. Do you remember the Civil War? The increasing legislative power of the non slave states is what precipitated it. Northern States were gaining legislative power, and threatening the Slave Based agricultural economy of the South. That is the reason the South seceded. It is also the reason segregation replaced slavery, and is the reason that wages in Alabama are still lower than the national average.

But that is a different subject all together.

The Conservative agenda is to maintain a system of cheap labor. The method of maintaining a system of cheap labor is to threaten to close the plants, and move the jobs to locales where labor is plentiful and CHEAP.

Look at the debate, listen to the anti-union rhetoric, consider the source, and realize that you are being indoctrinated into believing that corporations are benevolent, paternal forces, and government must help them prosper, so they can exploit YOU.

If you awaken to those facts of life in this grand old country, you might just start thinking like a progressive Democrat


I never said anything about Alabama or any other states. That has absolutly nothing to do with what I wrote. If you can't keep up with the conversation, don't respond.
quote:
Originally posted by NashBama:

I never said anything about Alabama or any other states. That has absolutly nothing to do with what I wrote. If you can't keep up with the conversation, don't respond.


I am not arguing on YOUR TERMS FELLA. Like it or not, This is exactly what you said,
quote:
Homes are being built at a record pace, new businesses are starting up all the time, and money is being made. This is what I'm seeing with my own eyes. What you are describing simply is not reality.
What you are seeing is IN ALABAMA. What you are not seeing is evident from the tone of EVERYTHING'S COMING UP ROSES in your commentary. Sorry guy, but if you present anecdotal evidence in a debate I am going to refer to it as I see fit to refer to it.

Now, You contend that in ALABAMA the economy is showing improvement. I KNOW that the economy is improving in Alabama, and Arizona too. It is not improving in MICHIGAN, ILLINOIS, WISCONSIN NEW JERSEY, INDIANA, NEW YORK, NEW HAMPSHIRE, CONNECTICUT, MAINE, VERMONT AND I KNOW I LEFT OUT A FEW.


Growth second quarter was 1.3% NATIONWIDE.
Even more alarming, members of the Neo-Conservative group hold some of the most powerful positions in the American government. ...and yet most who have voted for them don't even know the core Neo-Conservative philosophies. Most have been fooled into thinking they've voted "Republican."



Vice President Dick Cheney is a founding member of PNAC, along with Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld. Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz is the ideological father of the group.



The PNAC Statement of Principles is signed by Cheney, Wolfowitz and Rumsfeld, as well as by Eliot Abrams, Jeb Bush, Bush's special envoy to Afghanistan Zalmay Khalilzad, and many others. William Kristol, famed conservative writer for the Weekly Standard, is also a co-founder of the group. Ruppert Murdoch, who also owns international media giant Fox News.
quote:
Originally posted by NashBama:

I never said anything about Alabama or any other states. That has absolutly nothing to do with what I wrote. If you can't keep up with the conversation, don't respond.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

EdEKit

I am not arguing on YOUR TERMS FELLA. Like it or not, This is exactly what you said,
quote:
Homes are being built at a record pace, new businesses are starting up all the time, and money is being made. This is what I'm seeing with my own eyes. What you are describing simply is not reality.


What you are seeing is IN ALABAMA. What you are not seeing is evident from the tone of EVERYTHING'S COMING UP ROSES in your commentary. Sorry guy, but if you present anecdotal evidence in a debate I am going to refer to it as I see fit to refer to it.
Now, You contend that in ALABAMA the economy is showing improvement. I KNOW that the economy is improving in Alabama, and Arizona too. It is not improving in MICHIGAN, ILLINOIS, WISCONSIN NEW JERSEY, INDIANA, NEW YORK, NEW HAMPSHIRE, CONNECTICUT, MAINE, VERMONT AND I KNOW I LEFT OUT A FEW.


Growth second quarter was 1.3% NATIONWIDE.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

To begin with this is an open Forum and comments are open to anyone who has a comment. I think we all have debated a number of people at one time as new posters offer their opinions. I have to wonder when you begin to dictate who can comment and who can't. Your also free to ignore any comments you want too.

NashBama you said you see with your own eyes and your friends all this prosperity. I pointed out that what you are seeing around you is not what's happening around the country. There are areas in the Heartland, manufacturing sections from North to South and cities that are experiencing close to depression type conditions.

National figures claim unemployment to be at what they considered an acceptable level but the numbers are not accurate. They only count people who are collecting benefits, when your benefits run out your no longer counted. Many people have been unemployed for years. Their jobs were sent overseas or their industry suffers from foreign competition. They get by with temporary low paying jobs with no benefits. A good number have actually refinanced their homes and are living on that also.

Many Americans are grossly under employed. They lost good paying jobs with benefits and now have jobs that earn a third of what they were making with no benefits.

Many economists believe the true numbers to be closer to 12 or 13% and in certain sections of the country and certain classes of people it's even higher.

Food banks, shelters and charities are recording record numbers of people in need of assistance. They can't handle the numbers.

Labor gains made over the decades were lost, like benefits and job security, wages are stagnate, families have both heads of households working and can barely keep up with inflation, are deep in debt and have lost something as simple as the 5 day work week.

We are losing our manufacturing section at an alarming rate and our infrastructure is crumbling.

A small percentage of Americans are doing fine but that's not true for the majority of the American people. If you and your friends are doing well that's fine but it's not a reflection of the true state of our economy.

There are serious problems facing this country.

Denial is not an option.
Randomly inserting nonsensical ramblings is a form of thread hijacking, that's what Ed's last reply was. If he has a valid opinion about the topic, cool, if not stay out of it. I'm not dictating anything, it's simply manners.

There have always been parts of the country that struggles economically. That's life. I've been to many different areas of the country and for the most part the working class is doing fine. Kids are going to school, there is plenty to eat, and more and more people are continuing their education past college. Go shopping on December 23rd and tell me the working class is struggling. Sure, people are deep in debt, but that's no one's fault but their own. Actually, more and more people are coming out of debt and using common sense.

The real threat to the working class is the illegals coming in and driving down the wages. If you want wages to increase, get rid of those that drive it down illegally. That will help the working class, creating a socialist party will not.
NashBama:

Randomly inserting nonsensical ramblings is a form of thread hijacking, that's what Ed's last reply was. If he has a valid opinion about the topic, cool, if not stay out of it. I'm not dictating anything, it's simply manners.

There have always been parts of the country that struggles economically. That's life. I've been to many different areas of the country and for the most part the working class is doing fine. Kids are going to school, there is plenty to eat, and more and more people are continuing their education past college. Go shopping on December 23rd and tell me the working class is struggling. Sure, people are deep in debt, but that's no one's fault but their own. Actually, more and more people are coming out of debt and using common sense.

The real threat to the working class is the illegals coming in and driving down the wages. If you want wages to increase, get rid of those that drive it down illegally. That will help the working class, creating a socialist party will not.

________________________________________________________________________________________________


Actually "Randomly inserting nonsensical ramblings" is what I consider your posts to be as well as a number of other right wingers, but I don't tell them not to post. Everyone is entitled to "Randomly inserting nonsensical ramblings" and let the readers decide what's valid and what they want to accept. You sound like O'Reilly or Limgbaugh yelling at those with different opinions to "Shut up."

But whatever.

People are in debt because their wages are stagnate and are not rising with the pace of costs.

Productivity is up, profits are up, CEO salaries are way up but workers pay is stagnate. The reason they are not rising is because they are not getting their fair share of the pie. They have been sold out by their government who's policies have favored the greed of the corporate class at the expense of the American worker and real National Security I might add.

They deserve to be able to live a decent life and afford the "American Dream" for their labor. If the system is not working for them they have the right to change it.
quote:
People are in debt because their wages are stagnate and are not rising with the pace of costs.


I haven't told you to shut up, you can at least stay on topic and make sense even if I think it's wrong. However, people like you have to label anyone who doesn't agree with them as "right wingers" even if the label does not fit and throw around Limbaugh's name. It's a sign of a lack of tolerance for other peoples ideas. As I've said so many times, I personally can't stand Limbaugh, so your statement is simply erroneous.

People are in debt because they spend more than they make, plain and simple. People who realize this and change their behavior get out of debt. It happens every day.

Let's say you figure out a way to convince 1 million people to give you $5. Have you made anyone poor? No, but you are now suddenly rich. That's called business. Did you take someone else's share of the pie? No, because there is no pie. As I've said before, someone getting rich does not mean that someone else was made poor.

Let's say you need employees for your business. You post the job, the duties, and the pay, but no one applies. How do you change this? You raise the pay. This happens every day. Once you have your employee, how do you keep them? You continue to raise the pay with raises and cost of living increases. This is how the real world works, I know because I live in it. Without workers, companies can't survive, so they have to pay what the worker is willing to accept for the job. In the real world, wages are not stagnate. Companies compete for workers just like they compete for customers. Owners know that if their employees are not happy, they'll go to the competition and the business will fail. Therefore wages can not stagnate or else the rich won't be rich anymore.

What is causing poverty is Americans living off the government while illegals come here and short circuit the free market system. If an American needs $10 an hour to raise his family, but an illegal can accept $5, companies are going to lower their pay and hire the illegal. The American is now unemployed and living on your tax dollar. Take the illegals out of the equation and let the market run it's course and wages will be where they are supposed to be. Reform the welfare system to where it's harder to live off the government, and people will find work to survive. It's called basic economics, it's a very simple concept.
NashBama:

(POGO)
quote:
People are in debt because their wages are stagnate and are not rising with the pace of costs.

_______________________________________________________________________

People are in debt because they spend more than they make, plain and simple. People who realize this and change their behavior get out of debt. It happens every day.

Let's say you figure out a way to convince 1 million people to give you $5. Have you made anyone poor? No, but you are now suddenly rich. That's called business. Did you take someone else's share of the pie? No, because there is no pie. As I've said before, someone getting rich does not mean that someone else was made poor.

Let's say you need employees for your business. You post the job, the duties, and the pay, but no one applies. How do you change this? You raise the pay. This happens every day. Once you have your employee, how do you keep them? You continue to raise the pay with raises and cost of living increases. This is how the real world works, I know because I live in it. Without workers, companies can't survive, so they have to pay what the worker is willing to accept for the job. In the real world, wages are not stagnate. Companies compete for workers just like they compete for customers. Owners know that if their employees are not happy, they'll go to the competition and the business will fail. Therefore wages can not stagnate or else the rich won't be rich anymore.

What is causing poverty is Americans living off the government while illegals come here and short circuit the free market system. If an American needs $10 an hour to raise his family, but an illegal can accept $5, companies are going to lower their pay and hire the illegal. The American is now unemployed and living on your tax dollar. Take the illegals out of the equation and let the market run it's course and wages will be where they are supposed to be. Reform the welfare system to where it's harder to live off the government, and people will find work to survive. It's called basic economics, it's a very simple concept.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


People are in debt because they can't afford to live on what they are being paid. That's why they have both heads of the house hold working.

A lot of the debt is somtimes for medical costs also.

When there are more workers then jobs business dictates the wages.

When a corporation makes "X" amount of profits and the majority of it goes to CEO's and Shareholders while the workers get shortchanged that's what causes wages to stagnate. Workers are not receiving their fair share of the "PIE." No corporation or millionaire became rich without the labor of the worker.

Illegal immigration is a global problem brought about by policies of greed, exploitation and environmental destruction of Corporate Globalization and Wars over resources. Illegal take low paying dead end jobs that most Americans are not interested in taking, like janitorial, landscaping, agricultural, busboys, day labor, factory work, etc. If these jobs were unionized there would be no problems. All immigrants have gone that route.

Good paying jobs in manufacturing have been sent overseas, to increase profits for the corporate class.

The real problem is actually with legal immigrants that corporations are bringing in to replace Americans who are receiving decent pay. These legal immigrants are paid less and are the real threat to the American worker. Again, we need unions in America and we need international unions.

The reason there is poverty and a declining middle class is the American people have been sold out by corporate America and the government it has bought and owned that turns it's back on workers and the corporate media that balmes scapegoats and leads us around in circles and acts as their apologists for the corporate class and government.
quote:
People are in debt because they can't afford to live on what they are being paid. That's why they have both heads of the house hold working.

A lot of the debt is somtimes for medical costs also.

When there are more workers then jobs business dictates the wages.

When a corporation makes "X" amount of profits and the majority of it goes to CEO's and Shareholders while the workers get shortchanged that's what causes wages to stagnate. Workers are not receiving their fair share of the "PIE." No corporation or millionaire became rich without the labor of the worker.

Illegal immigration is a global problem brought about by policies of greed, exploitation and environmental destruction of Corporate Globalization and Wars over resources. Illegal take low paying dead end jobs that most Americans are not interested in taking, like janitorial, landscaping, agricultural, busboys, day labor, factory work, etc. If these jobs were unionized there would be no problems. All immigrants have gone that route.

Good paying jobs in manufacturing have been sent overseas, to increase profits for the corporate class.

The real problem is actually with legal immigrants that corporations are bringing in to replace Americans who are receiving decent pay. These legal immigrants are paid less and are the real threat to the American worker. Again, we need unions in America and we need international unions.

The reason there is poverty and a declining middle class is the American people have been sold out by corporate America and the government it has bought and owned that turns it's back on workers and the corporate media that balmes scapegoats and leads us around in circles and acts as their apologists for the corporate class and government.


Nope, sorry, that's simply not how the real world works. In reality, people are making money, buying homes, and increasing their education and pay. Workers who are not getting enough of the "pie" leave that company and go somewhere else.

Yes, jobs are being outsourced, but jobs are also coming here. Ford makes their cars in Mexico, where does Nissan make theirs? In Tennessee with American workers. I know because I know people who work there. They make good money, their wages increase, and they're living the American dream.

You may claim that the middle class is in decline, but what I see and live in the real world is the exact opposite. Besides, without companies and businesses, what kind of jobs would people have?
NashBama :

Nope, sorry, that's simply not how the real world works. In reality, people are making money, buying homes, and increasing their education and pay. Workers who are not getting enough of the "pie" leave that company and go somewhere else.

Yes, jobs are being outsourced, but jobs are also coming here. Ford makes their cars in Mexico, where does Nissan make theirs? In Tennessee with American workers. I know because I know people who work there. They make good money, their wages increase, and they're living the American dream.

You may claim that the middle class is in decline, but what I see and live in the real world is the exact opposite. Besides, without companies and businesses, what kind of jobs would people have?

________________________________________________________________________________________________


In the "real world" both heads of households are working as families struggle to keep up, personal debt is up and wages are stagnate. More jobs have been lost then have been gained. Many who lost good paying jobs are now grossly under employed. Bankruptcies are up and the housing making is flat. Mortgages are defaulting at a record rate. Senator Schumer has announced the need for government action to help stop the forecloses, mainly because it will have a devastating effect on the entire economy. CEO salaries are up and are 300 to 400 times the amount of the average worker.

That's what happens and the "Kinds of jobs people get" when a country ships it's jobs over seas, destroys unions and worker protection and legally brings in immigrants to lower wages and increases pay at the top.
quote:
Originally posted by NashBama:
People being rich has nothing to do with others being poor. Money is not a pie where if someone has a big slice, someone else is left with a small slice. Wages are not stagnate and the middle class is doing fine. I'm middle class, my friends and family are middle class, and we're all doing fine. What hurts the middle class and any class is debt and mismanagement of money. That has nothing to do with others being rich. In this country if you're not happy with what your making, there are plenty of opportunities out there to change. What you are describing is a communist society which is simply a bad idea. I agree we need a third or even a fourth party, but not if it involves socialism or communism.
NashBama, YOU are right, and no I have not gone over to the dark side.

You consistently speak to money as the right of the rich, and the goal of everyone else.
You are only half right. Money is Power. BUT POWER IS NOT MONEY.

What is a zero sum transaction is the Power Transaction. If you gain power someone looses power. Money AS YOU RIGHTLY POINT OUT IS NOT LIKE THAT AT ALL. Value is ADDED by labor. Empowered labor profits from adding value.
Disempowered labor does not profit from adding value, the power elite does.

Power, in the hands of management always impoverishes labor. Power, in the hands of labor NEVER impoverishes management.

Labor, impoverished, IMPOVERISHES EVERYONE. Without incentive, there is no motivation to add value.

Power, used to subjugate labor's prosperity kills incentive. Without incentive, labor ceases.

The Captain of a basketball team motivates the other players to do their best to win. The incentive to do that can be a desire to be on a winning team, or to be The Winner. You buy the concept of "The winner is the man who dies with the most toys." Have fun, with the toys, but remember this, THERE ARE NO TOYS IF THEIR ARE NO TOY MAKERS. And the toy maker may well be the one with the FEWEST toys but he will never be the one with NO toys.

The opportunity to get a toy motivates the toy maker to make a toy. The need to get a Ham Sandwich motivates the toy maker to SELL the toy.

Given no chance to SELL the toy, the toy maker will make a ham sandwich. ANY YOU HAVE LOST THE OPPORTUNITY TO BUY THE TOY. Because the Toy is never made.

YOU HAVE TO PAY THE CRAFTSMAN, OR HE WILL BE A SANDWICH MAKER.
quote:
In the "real world" both heads of households are working as families struggle to keep up, personal debt is up and wages are stagnate. More jobs have been lost then have been gained. Many who lost good paying jobs are now grossly under employed. Bankruptcies are up and the housing making is flat. Mortgages are defaulting at a record rate. Senator Schumer has announced the need for government action to help stop the forecloses, mainly because it will have a devastating effect on the entire economy. CEO salaries are up and are 300 to 400 times the amount of the average worker.

That's what happens and the "Kinds of jobs people get" when a country ships it's jobs over seas, destroys unions and worker protection and legally brings in immigrants to lower wages and increases pay at the top.



Personal debt is up because people are spending more than they make. Too many people are using credit cards, getting car loans, and taking out huge home loans. Personal debt has nothing to do with how much a CEO makes, it has to do with a person's own mismanagement of money.

Wages simply are not stagnate, I've already explained this. You are not forced to work where you are. If you do not like what you are earning, you find something that pays better. People do this all the time and companies know this. That's why they have to pay well to keep good employees. The housing market is flat now because it's coming off a record breaking boom. It will dip down again a little, then boom again. That's how things work.

Sure there are families that are struggling financially, that's something that has always happened and always will happen, it's life. Financial problems are not perminent, most people struggle for a period of time, they make changes in career and education, then they make more money. The middle class you are describing is not what I see personally. Even in Florence, things are a little tougher financially, but people still have enough to eat and can buy Christmas presents. What you are describing simply is not reality.
POGO is entirely correct!!!! And if ANYONE on this forum ever gets acclimated enough to think YOUR job is safe, then you have another "THINK" coming... Those of us who have been fortunate enough to have NOT been put out the door, are just THAT, FORTUNATE>.. because it is coming, it is coming to more companies than anyone can imagine... even those who have been in existance, and even those who THINK they are a monopoly and will never be touched.... that is JUST what the market is seeking right now... NO ONE IS SAFE... so if no one wants to eat their words while having their unemployment being mailed to them, and begging doctors to see you or your kids because unemployment checks do NOT come with medical insurance, then you better start really reasearching about WHERE this country is going.... Ladies and Gentlemen, we are being sold out faster than we can even get a day's work in.

There is not one single 'conservative' even close to the white house... Greed has finally overtaken them ALL, just as it has here in Alabama with OUR representatives...

ALL of our government are NO LONGER for the people.... only themselves, and it matters NOT what party they supposedly belong to.
quote:
Originally posted by NashBama:
quote:
In the "real world" both heads of households are working as families struggle to keep up, personal debt is up and wages are stagnate. More jobs have been lost then have been gained. Many who lost good paying jobs are now grossly under employed. Bankruptcies are up and the housing making is flat. Mortgages are defaulting at a record rate. Senator Schumer has announced the need for government action to help stop the forecloses, mainly because it will have a devastating effect on the entire economy. CEO salaries are up and are 300 to 400 times the amount of the average worker.

That's what happens and the "Kinds of jobs people get" when a country ships it's jobs over seas, destroys unions and worker protection and legally brings in immigrants to lower wages and increases pay at the top.



Personal debt is up because people are spending more than they make. Too many people are using credit cards, getting car loans, and taking out huge home loans. Personal debt has nothing to do with how much a CEO makes, it has to do with a person's own mismanagement of money.

Wages simply are not stagnate, I've already explained this. You are not forced to work where you are. If you do not like what you are earning, you find something that pays better. People do this all the time and companies know this. That's why they have to pay well to keep good employees. The housing market is flat now because it's coming off a record breaking boom. It will dip down again a little, then boom again. That's how things work.

Sure there are families that are struggling financially, that's something that has always happened and always will happen, it's life. Financial problems are not perminent, most people struggle for a period of time, they make changes in career and education, then they make more money. The middle class you are describing is not what I see personally. Even in Florence, things are a little tougher financially, but people still have enough to eat and can buy Christmas presents. What you are describing simply is not reality.


Nash, I am really not sure what dream world you are looking at right now, because GETTING ANOTHER BETTER PAYING JOB is not an option for a lot of people in this USA!!!! Look around, it is proven!!!

Unemployment is low, people have drawn all they can, looked for jobs each and every week, cannot find them so now they are having to resort to min. wage just to have a little cash... MAN, I pray to God it never happens to you, because you are one person on here who has been so judgmental on people who cannot do better right now, that you may end up where they are...

I don't mean to be mean at all... but think back at the steel mills, textile mills.. remembre those GOOD paying jobs? Then remember THOUSANDS of people all looking for that ONE job that will SAVE their family... some never even got close... coulent even afford to leave town...

If we, as Americans, EVER stop thinking with our hearts, then we are doomed to start with, and that is what has been happening for at least the last four years... NO HEART, ALL MONEY.... and with THAT, we only get what we sow....

And there will be NO going back... it will be a done deal.
quote:
Nash, I am really not sure what dream world you are looking at right now, because GETTING ANOTHER BETTER PAYING JOB is not an option for a lot of people in this USA!!!! Look around, it is proven!!!

Unemployment is low, people have drawn all they can, looked for jobs each and every week, cannot find them so now they are having to resort to min. wage just to have a little cash... MAN, I pray to God it never happens to you, because you are one person on here who has been so judgmental on people who cannot do better right now, that you may end up where they are...

I don't mean to be mean at all... but think back at the steel mills, textile mills.. remembre those GOOD paying jobs? Then remember THOUSANDS of people all looking for that ONE job that will SAVE their family... some never even got close... coulent even afford to leave town...

If we, as Americans, EVER stop thinking with our hearts, then we are doomed to start with, and that is what has been happening for at least the last four years... NO HEART, ALL MONEY.... and with THAT, we only get what we sow....

And there will be NO going back... it will be a done deal.


Finding a better job is always an option. If it wasn't, sites like Monster.com and Careerbuilder.com would not exist. The reality is those sites and their counterparts are highly successful because there are plenty of employers looking for workers and plenty of workers looking for jobs. Sure, the old blue collar jobs have been outsourced, but new jobs have taken their place. Computer programmers, graphic designers, IT and computer repair positions are making very good money. Get on a job website and see for yourself.

Besides, if the middle class was in decline, all the new businesses near my house would not be going up, the mall would not be expanding, stores would not be crowded with people, and my property value would not be increasing. Instead, all of those things are actually happening and proves that the middle class for the most part is doing fine. It's not just in my area, but for most of the country. Even in Florence, do you know of any new buildings going up today?
____________________________________________________________________________
Finding a better job is always an option. If it wasn't, sites like Monster.com and Careerbuilder.com would not exist. The reality is those sites and their counterparts are highly successful because there are plenty of employers looking for workers and plenty of workers looking for jobs. Sure, the old blue collar jobs have been outsourced, but new jobs have taken their place. Computer programmers, graphic designers, IT and computer repair positions are making very good money. Get on a job website and see for yourself.

Besides, if the middle class was in decline, all the new businesses near my house would not be going up, the mall would not be expanding, stores would not be crowded with people, and my property value would not be increasing. Instead, all of those things are actually happening and proves that the middle class for the most part is doing fine. It's not just in my area, but for most of the country. Even in Florence, do you know of any new buildings going up today?

________________________________________________

You can believe what you want but the old line that if your poor it's your own fault doesn't cut it any more. The jobs are gone and wages are stagnate. Cites are crumbling and small towns are struggling.

People are experiencing the truth. They are working their bottoms off, productivity is up and CEO's wages are up but workers salaries are stagnate. It's a fact. They can't keep up with inflation. They idea that millions of people are deep in debt simply because they are irresponible is baloney.

There are more workers then jobs and corporation are bringing in more Legal immigrants to under cut workers pay. Some people do have luck and are able to do OK but it's not the case for many.

People should be able to afford to live without credit debt but are forced into it by low salaries.

Bankruptcies are up.

You can say what you want but workers are experiencing hard times and are beginning to organize, which is why union memberships are increasing and there is a move to reach and connect with international unions.
quote:
You can believe what you want but the old line that if your poor it's your own fault doesn't cut it any more. The jobs are gone and wages are stagnate. Cites are crumbling and small towns are struggling.

People are experiencing the truth. They are working their bottoms off, productivity is up and CEO's wages are up but workers salaries are stagnate. It's a fact. They can't keep up with inflation. They idea that millions of people are deep in debt simply because they are irresponible is baloney.

There are more workers then jobs and corporation are bringing in more Legal immigrants to under cut workers pay. Some people do have luck and are able to do OK but it's not the case for many.

People should be able to afford to live without credit debt but are forced into it by low salaries.

Bankruptcies are up.

You can say what you want but workers are experiencing hard times and are beginning to organize, which is why union memberships are increasing and there is a move to reach and connect with international unions.


Sorry, this is simply not true. I'm speaking about what I see in real life, not what I read on a web site. Cities are not crumbling and small towns are not suffering. There are plenty of jobs and plenty of people doing them. If you were right, then there would be no growth and development. All I have to do is sit in rush hour traffic and look at the construction projects for new businesses going up on the side of the road to prove you wrong.

I'm not rich by any stretch, I have a modest 3 bedroom house and a beat up 98 taurus. I'm middle class and what you are describing is not what I live every day. I'm fine and I don't need a union or socialst government.
quote:
Originally posted by NashBama:
quote:
You can believe what you want but the old line that if your poor it's your own fault doesn't cut it any more. The jobs are gone and wages are stagnate. Cites are crumbling and small towns are struggling.

People are experiencing the truth. They are working their bottoms off, productivity is up and CEO's wages are up but workers salaries are stagnate. It's a fact. They can't keep up with inflation. They idea that millions of people are deep in debt simply because they are irresponible is baloney.

There are more workers then jobs and corporation are bringing in more Legal immigrants to under cut workers pay. Some people do have luck and are able to do OK but it's not the case for many.

People should be able to afford to live without credit debt but are forced into it by low salaries.

Bankruptcies are up.

You can say what you want but workers are experiencing hard times and are beginning to organize, which is why union memberships are increasing and there is a move to reach and connect with international unions.


Sorry, this is simply not true. I'm speaking about what I see in real life, not what I read on a web site. Cities are not crumbling and small towns are not suffering. There are plenty of jobs and plenty of people doing them. If you were right, then there would be no growth and development. All I have to do is sit in rush hour traffic and look at the construction projects for new businesses going up on the side of the road to prove you wrong.

I'm not rich by any stretch, I have a modest 3 bedroom house and a beat up 98 taurus. I'm middle class and what you are describing is not what I live every day. I'm fine and I don't need a union or socialst government.
It isn't the water, it must be the paste. NashBama, Allow me to say this again. YOU are only looking at the place your backside is parked. READ THIS. http://marketplace.publicradio.org/shows/2007/05/02/PM200705025.html
That is an opinion by someone who is not middle class and probably living in New York. His opinions mean absolutly nothing. I'm middle class, my family, my friends, most everyone I know. The world you and pogo are describing is not the world I see and the people I know see every day. I'm living in reality with my eyes open, you are not.
NashBama

That is an opinion by someone who is not middle class and probably living in New York. His opinions mean absolutly nothing. I'm middle class, my family, my friends, most everyone I know. The world you and pogo are describing is not the world I see and the people I know see every day. I'm living in reality with my eyes open, you are not.

________________________________________________
Reich may not be in the Middle Class but he is an informed opinion and as former Labor Secretary has "some" knowldge on the subject.
Of course is just another one of those "Liberal Bloggers" who are baised and have their own agneda.

Here is his blurb from his site.


American Prospect Online - View Author

http://www.prospect.org/web/page.ww?name=View+Author§ion=root&id=102

Robert B. Reich

Robert B. Reich is co-founder of The American Prospect. He has written extensively for the Prospect on the international economy and American progressivism. Currently, he is a Professor of Public Policy at the Goldman School of Public Policy at the University of California at Berkeley. He was previously a university professor and the Maurice B. Hexter Professor of Social and Economic Policy at Brandeis University and its Heller Graduate School.

Before joining Brandeis, he served as the nation's 22nd secretary of labor during President Bill Clinton's first term. Under Reich's leadership, the Labor Department moved forward on several initiatives to build the skills of American workers. The department cracked down on unsafe work sites and fraudulent purveyors of pensions and health insurance. It initiated a national crusade to abolish sweatshops in the United States and to eradicate child labor around the world. Under Secretary Reich, the Family and Medical Leave Act was passed and implemented. In addition, Reich was instrumental in raising the minimum wage for the first time since 1989.

Before heading the Labor Department, Reich was a member of the faculty at Harvard University's John F. Kennedy School of Government. He served as an assistant to the solicitor general in the Ford administration, representing the United States before the U.S. Supreme Court, and he headed the policy planning staff of the Federal Trade Commission during the Carter administration.

Reich is the author of ten books, including The Work of Nations, which has been translated into 22 languages, the best-seller Locked in the Cabinet, The Future of Success, and, most recently, Reason, published by Alfred Knopf. He has written more than 200 articles on the global economy, the changing nature of work, and the centrality of human capital. He is a consultant to many governments and corporations. Reich was the host of the widely acclaimed four-part public TV series Made in America (1992), and most recently the writer and host of the PBS special At the Grass Roots (1998). He also co-hosted the public TV series The Long and the Short of It. His weekly radio commentary can be heard every Wednesday evening on public radio's "Marketplace," and his writing has appeared in The New Yorker, The Los Angeles Times, The New York Times, The Washington Post, The Boston Globe, Britain's Observer, and many other publications.
That proves my point, he's not middle class and I am. It's no different than someone who has never been to Alabama trying to tell you what it's like and someone who has lived there for years, who are you going to believe? In the world I live in, business is booming, people are buying and selling homes, and the middle class is strong. The only two threats to the middle class is personal debt and illegal immigration. That's reality no matter what some isolated pseudo-intellectual says.
NashBama:

That proves my point, he's not middle class and I am. It's no different than someone who has never been to Alabama trying to tell you what it's like and someone who has lived there for years, who are you going to believe? In the world I live in, business is booming, people are buying and selling homes, and the middle class is strong. The only two threats to the middle class is personal debt and illegal immigration. That's reality no matter what some isolated pseudo-intellectual says.

________________________________________________

Reich monitors events around the country and around the world. He is well educated and an informed and experienced person. If only middle class people can talk about the middles class that would exclude all your TV and print pundits as well as think tank experts who are paid hundreds of thousands of dollars and some in the millions.

I am also in the middle class and work at a small business. I would say the business is stable but has slowed somewhat and has prevented me and others from higher raises and maybe even retiring early. I have been here 35 years but I am in my mid 50's.

I take the time to monitor and read what is happening around the country and millions of people are suffering. Millions are deep in debt and now losing their homes. Job lose is a fact.
quote:
NashBama:

That proves my point, he's not middle class and I am. It's no different than someone who has never been to Alabama trying to tell you what it's like and someone who has lived there for years, who are you going to believe? In the world I live in, business is booming, people are buying and selling homes, and the middle class is strong. The only two threats to the middle class is personal debt and illegal immigration. That's reality no matter what some isolated pseudo-intellectual says.

________________________________________________

Reich monitors events around the country and around the world. He is well educated and an informed and experienced person. If only middle class people can talk about the middles class that would exclude all your TV and print pundits as well as think tank experts who are paid hundreds of thousands of dollars and some in the millions.

I am also in the middle class and work at a small business. I would say the business is stable but has slowed somewhat and has prevented me and others from higher raises and maybe even retiring early. I have been here 35 years but I am in my mid 50's.

I take the time to monitor and read what is happening around the country and millions of people are suffering. Millions are deep in debt and now losing their homes. Job lose is a fact.


Yes, people are in debt and are killing their income, that's due to living beyond their means. Look at how many credit card offers you get in the mail. Look at how many ads for refinancing your home or debt consolidation are on TV. Look at how much car dealers spend on advertising and talk about their cheap financing. People are being paid good wages, they are just spending more than they make. That's what is killing the middle class, the middle class themselves. Buy with cash, you'll have no debt, and you'll keep your income regardless of how much a CEO makes. It's that simple.
_______________________________________________________________________

NashBama:

Yes, people are in debt and are killing their income, that's due to living beyond their means. Look at how many credit card offers you get in the mail. Look at how many ads for refinancing your home or debt consolidation are on TV. Look at how much car dealers spend on advertising and talk about their cheap financing. People are being paid good wages, they are just spending more than they make. That's what is killing the middle class, the middle class themselves. Buy with cash, you'll have no debt, and you'll keep your income regardless of how much a CEO makes. It's that simple.


______________________________________________________________________

People are in debt because their wages are not keeping up with inflation. Wages are stagnate. They are not getting their fair share of the pie.

Interest rates on credit are also too high.

It's that simple.
quote:
People are in debt because their wages are not keeping up with inflation. Wages are stagnate. They are not getting their fair share of the pie.

Interest rates on credit are also too high.

It's that simple.


It's also wrong. If people would not rely on credit, the interest rates would not matter. Wages are not stagnate and money is not a pie with limits on how much someone can make. In this world, you're not stuck with your wage, you're free to educate yourself and find another job. That's reality regardless of what some socialist web site says.
________________________________________________________________________________________________

NashBama:

It's also wrong. If people would not rely on credit, the interest rates would not matter. Wages are not stagnate and money is not a pie with limits on how much someone can make. In this world, you're not stuck with your wage, you're free to educate yourself and find another job. That's reality regardless of what some socialist web site says.

________________________________________________________________________________________________

Gee, all they have to do is get a better, higher paying job. Wow, it's just that simple yet millions of Americans just can't seem to figure it out.

Wages are stagnate and in reality are declining when adjusted to inflation. Both heads of households are working yet they still need to rely on credit because they need it to make ends meet or pay extra hidden costs.

Some do spend the money pn luxery items but people should be able to live and afford luxery items on a 40 hour week. CEO saleries are 300 to 400 times the average worker. If they were not so greedy workers would be getting more.

It's that simple

Interest on credit cards is too high and eventually catches up with them.

Education is no longer the key to success as many with degrees cannot find good paying jobs. We are having what the Bush administration has defined as a "Jobless Recovery."

It is the weakest recovery in years and I believe the weakest in current history but it has not created anywhere near the needed amount of good paying jobs. Good paying jobs are in short supply. Some people are making but many are not.
You believe money should be distributed fairly. I believe it should be earned. What a CEO makes has nothing to do with workers wages. It's his company, if he wants to underpay his employees and pay for a high turnover rate and lower quality product and customer service, it's his business. Typically, this type of business fails.

Again, what you are describing is simply not reality. People get better paying jobs all the time. I've done it, everyone I know has done it, I'm sure you've done it. When you're not happy with your job, you look for something else. That's why there are so many job sites out there making a fortune. In a free market place, companies compete for the best employees by offering better pay and benefits. People make more money in a free economy rather than a socialist economy. If the government distributed money rather than allow people to earn as much as they could, people would be trapped in their economic social class. With capitalism, people are free to work and make their own way in life.

Besides, no one has to live on credit. Our society is very materialistic, everyone has to have the latest car, nicest clothes, biggest TV. The concept of save and buy later is lost to the buy now pay more later idea. That's what is hurting the middle class, not how much money some CEO makes.

I don't need the government to tell me what I should be making and what I earn should be mine to keep, not mine to share. Besides, if it wasn't for a capitalist society, the corporation that owns this forum probably would not exist. Neither would the corporation that created the software you are using right now to read this, nor the corporation that developed the computer you're looking at. Think of all those jobs created by simple ingenuity and a quest for profit. That would not exist if it was all controlled by the government.

Add Reply

Post

Untitled Document
×
×
×
×
Link copied to your clipboard.
×