Originally Posted by Bill Gray:
Hi Vic,
You are right that Jesus Christ does teach us, and instruct us, as He instituted the ordinance of Communion, the Lord's Supper -- in 1 Corinthians 11:25, and also in Luke 22:19:
1 Corinthians 11:25, "In the same way He took the cup also after supper, saying, 'This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.' "
Luke 22:19, "And when He had taken some bread and given thanks, He broke it and gave it to them, saying, 'This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me.' "
No matter how the Vatican wants to stretch the teachings found in John 6 -- the Lord's Supper (or what you call the Eucharist) is NOT found there.
John 6:24, "So when the crowd saw that Jesus was not there, nor His disciples, they themselves got into the small boats, and came to Capernaum seeking Jesus."
Notice that this event, which followed the feeding of the 5000 the day before, happens in Capernaum -- not in Jerusalem where Christ instituted the Lord's Supper before His last Passover.
John 6:26-27, "Jesus answered them and said, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled. Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.' "
The crowd saw the miracle of Him feeding the 5000 and wanted more freebies.
John 6:30-35, "Therefore they said to Him, 'What sign will You perform then, that we may see it and believe You? What work will You do? Our fathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written, "He gave them bread from heaven to eat.' "
John 6:32-33, "Then Jesus said to them, 'Most assuredly, I say to you, Moses did not give you the bread from heaven, but . For the bread of God is He (Jesus Christ, spiritual manna)who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.' "
John 6:34-38, "Then they said to Him, 'Lord, give us this bread always.' And Jesus said to them, 'Iam the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.' "
Here, Jesus is clearly comparing the physical manna sent from God to the Israelites, daily, while they were in the wilderness. Yet, that physical manna perished and had to be replenished daily.
Then, Jesus tells them that He is the spiritual food, the spiritual manna, which brings eternal life which will never decay.
NO EUCHARIST, or even the Lord's Supper, found anywhere in John 6.
Can YOU show us the Eucharist, or Lord's Supper in John 6? Not just common words and phrases; but, the actual institution of the Lord's Supper?
No, you cannot -- for this event happened in Capernaum, not Jerusalem where all Passovers were celebrated -- and this event happened months before His Triumphal Entry and last Passover.
Let's all practice Acts 17:11.
God bless, have a blessed day,
Bill
I have all assurance that the most sure thing that we most likely can ALL agree on is that not ALL of us will agree on most anything or everything. With that said, all agreed or not, the only scriptures that Christ (Yeshua) ( and no I'm not locked into that Torrah seeker or other groups but just using reason and fact that Jesus (English rendering) never heard the name Jesus during His life or ministry but I have all assurance and faith that He has no problem being called Jesus) now back to the thought .... The only Scriptures that were around or used by Christ and the Disciples or even the Church early Church was that of the Torah and Jewish scriptures. This really shouldn't be a problem since the Old Testament and New Testament agree and correlate on teachings, prophecy and dogma. The New Testament or parts of what it contains surely was around in the early Church as much is based upon the writings of Paul, Peter and others contemporary to Christ.
I cannot say, or will I say, with all authority that "V" is 100% right or "Bill" is 100% right but rather I will say that I'm fairly certain that Christ would not condone the atmosphere of aggression and tone that tends to more pit Christian against Christian in an adversarial position rather than looking at the overall meaning of the sacriment or act itself and why He did as He did.
Christ, in His ministry, (my opinion mind you) reached out across boundaries and barriers to reach people who were seeking answers as to just who He was and why He was there and reconciling themselves unto their Creator and their God. While this forum is a good avenue which we all can dispute and discuss scripture and various doctrines or relate and reinforce our own beliefs and positions and educate others who may seek answers I doubt that continually taking such a rigid "I'm Right Always" attitude or a "your always wrong" attitude accomplishes any of our common goals, as Christians which should be to reach some form of Christian maturity among ourselves.
Remember folks that even among the earliest Churches, in common homes and dirt walls, early believers did not always agree together and there was disputes involving doctrines and personal beliefs. Paul addressed many of these throughout his own writings and especially in Romans Chapter 14. I think that Romans 14 is one passage that each Christian should take to heart quite often just as the 13rh chapter of 1 Corinthians. (1 Cor 13) and the First three Chapters of 1 John.
Yes there are MANY issues that Christ, Paul, Peter and the apostles conveyed to the Early Church and many things that Christians (a great many if not most who were Converted Jews) wanted to know about their Messiah that they had waited so long for. I think that one of the most common themes and lessons that all the Apostles and Christ tried to covey to ALL CHRISTIANS was LOVE. To let all believers know that through whatever disputes and divisions we might have that the overall LOVE that permeates us all, through and in God's Holy Spirit, is far more important than most anything else. WHY? For one the more we learn to Love the more mature we become and the closer (my opinion again) to becoming what God intended for His children/creation to become as they are led to that destination through and by the other doctrinal teachings contained within the scriptures.
Remember in the most basic message to non-believers LOVE was right present .. "For God so Loved the world". The basic and principal message (OF SALVATION) throughout whether delivered personally by Christ or by the Disciples didn't go through a lengthy list of thou shalt nots or condemnations of what all the person did but rather acknowledgement that God (who didn't have a reason to) LOVED US so much that HE, Himself, became sacrifice for us, to atone for and justify ALL those sins and shortcomings we have and continue to have in the flesh so that we (mankind) could avoid the set determined penalty of death for sins and be reconciled unto God Himself through His Holy Spirit.
Why do you think that harmony and general attitude of Love is so important among fellow believers? I believe it's because WE are God's Ministry and God's outreach unto the world around us and we don't do a very good job of showing and demonstrating the Love, Peace, and unity of God when we are so at each other just as if we were not saved in the first place. Presenting one's opinion/belief and why we believe as we do is fine as we seek to teach and train others and make them disciples (more mature teaching less mature to become mature) we often don't take the time to realize that we have a far ways to progress and go ourselves before we seek to help others. Romans 14 is a very good Chapter for those who seek to minister and interact with other Christians with whom we do not always agree on doctrine with.
My own opinions mind you. ... Ohh! one other opinion. It does one very little good to READ the Scriptures when we remain or stay deaf to them. Our greatest gain is to read them, discern, them, study and understand them through and with prayer and the Holy Spirit's ministry and help then apply them unto our lives and DEMONSTRATE them unto others in and by our lives that we live. By doing such and so we also are a ministry unto the world and people around us as they see humans doing things that are not typical but that are possible only with the guidance and power of God's Holy Spirit working within and through us.