Prayer In schools

quote:

Originally posted by Taciturn:
In your opinion, was this teacher wrong to do what my granddaughter asked? [/color]

Originally posted by GoFish:
For her to coerce the entire class in to prayer is simply unconscionable.

There is no coerce. Anyone is free to not take part.

What about Buddhist or Hindu kids, Tacky? There are many Asian here in the Shoals these days so this is not unlikely that there would be one or two in your gd's class.

There are none in this school.

They worship in ways that are completely different from ours. Are you in favor of forcing them (via peer pressure) to bow to your gd's god instead of their own deeply held beliefs?

Of course not. There is no forcing anyone to do anything.

There are kids who are raised as atheists. Don't they have a right to not be forced to pray?

No atheist in this class. The majority of these kids attend church with their parents. Those that don't attend church are taught Christian values at home.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by GoFish:
WHAT? You and I have written 400 pages of this stuff and YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT ID IS? My gosh.
QUOTE]

GoFish, I don't need ID to make me aware of the nonsense of evolution. Our discussions have barely touched on ID. I have never really looked into ID to see how it makes its case. I looked at a site that gave an overview of it, and I'm sure it's an attempt to introduce a bit of common sense into the picture. But ID was not written for me, but for people like you. Since I know that 1+1=2, then I have little need of searching through first grade math books to reassure myself that I’m right. ID is not what I base my faith on.

I came to believe in God through the preaching and teaching of His word. When I set out on a journey of faith, God eventually placed people in my life who were stronger in faith than what I was, and when I heard their testimonies and saw God work in their lives, my faith was strengthened. I further prayed and studied His word, and eventually came to know God in a real and personal way. God has worked and intervened in my life, and has answered prayers and done things that defied coincidence, and they can’t be logically explained away. I don’t need to refer to ID to verify what I already know. I have the reality of what I have seen, heard, and felt. God has proven to me that He exists through my own personal experiences with Him. I’m not searching for proof of God’s existence. I know that He exists.

The only reason that I would have to search through the pages of ID it is to find some bit of reasoning that might help me to pull people like you back into reality. However, I have a feeling that most atheists simply believe what they want to believe, and logic has nothing to do with it. Chances are that people who believe we are here by accident will not consider ID, because their mind is already made up. I wonder if there is any hope for you, because if you personally witnessed a miracle, I believe you would not rest until you could come up with a logical explanation for it.

I have heard you and DeepFat out as you attempt to present your basis for evolution, and it amazes me what little evidence you need to put your faith in it. You have made up your mind what you want to believe, and I have really stopped trying to convince you otherwise. I didn’t enter this forum topic to challenge you on evolution. We have discussed that for months and neither of us have budged. You continue to place your faith in things that defy all odds, and I continue to place my faith in the one who can do the impossible.

quote:

Originally posted by GoFish:

quote:

Originally posted by what4:
What does it predict that is so conclusive that when it doesn't occur it becomes falsifiable. I'm talking about predicting something that evolves.

What4, you have stated that you have not studied evolution. Please pick up a copy of a 5th grade science textbook and you will know 90% of your "enemy."

Here is a decent synopsis of what you ask for, What4:

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CA/CA210.html

Please educate yourself like the rest of us. Debating your ignorance is getting old.

I have no need to study evolution. If you could prove that things got more complicated with time, you would only prove that things got more complicated with time.

GoFish, I visited your site. The conspiracy theory that the world trade center was blown up by our government has more evidence to support it. I could have predicted that the body of man is created from the elements that came from the earth, but if you find it is so, you will not believe my theory that God created us from the earth. I could have predicted that the heavens and the earth were created in one setting of time, but if you look back in history and determine that what I say is true, you will not believe that in the beginning that God created the heavens and the earth. These predictions that are made prove nothing. If you accepted predictions as proof, then you would believe in Jesus Christ, because He was also predicted. Give me a formula that will tell me what the next creature will look like, and let's set back and watch to see if your prediction is true. Evolution has no means of predicting any future event with any accuracy. It doesn't have the accuracy to hit the broad side of a barn, and until it does, it can not be verified. Even then, I can say that God exists, because He has already verified it. About all that it would prove would be that you have learned enought about God's creative mysteries to have some knowledge of what to expect. DNA might predict a future character trait, but that would not prove that DNA came into existence by accident.

quote:

Originally posted by DeepFat:

What's nonsense is teaching the poor innocents that god breathed into a pile of dirt and we emerged as human from it.

DF

Ah, that nonsense will give life and hope that transcends time. If you believe the message of hope in Jesus Christ, then you will know eternal life and will be blessed forever. You may even find God intervening and answering your prayers in this life, and giving you a taste of what is to come. There is much to be gained if you open your eyes. I believe that what God has prepared for those who believe is greater than what you, I, or science can imagine. What God has promised for the future, I must take on faith, and must experience it later. Yet what He has promised in this life, I can take and experience even now by faith.

quote:

Originally posted by GoFish:

quote:

Originally posted by what4:
You oppose me or anyone like me teaching your children my viewpoint on the origin of mankind. Yet you feel that you have the right to teach my children your views on the origin of mankind.

You are not being consistent. You just finished posting page after page on how you would not be in favor of schools proselytizing to kids. Now you are stating the complete opposite because it fits your argument.

Nothing I said conflicts with what I have already said. I'm simply following up on the fact that as parents, we should be able to have the final say on what our children are taught. You no more have the right to teach my children that God was not needed for creation, than I have to tell your children that God is their creator. Children will hear both of these issues without having to be taught them in school. It is not right that any person violate the parents rights in regards of faith. You and your children can have faith that they exist by accident, where I and my children will say God is our creator.

quote:

Originally posted by Taciturn:
The majority of these kids attend church with their parents. Those that don't attend church are taught Christian values at home.[/color]

I tried to help you understand the part of our Constitution that bans this kind of action, Tacky. I can't make it any simpler than I have already. I give up.

quote:

Originally posted by what4:
Our discussions have barely touched on ID. I have never really looked into ID to see how it makes its case.

Then how in the hell can you type page after page in support of ID and is denial of science when you haven't even bothered to know what the hell you are talking about?

You speak as if you are actually proud of being ignorant.

I am not saying that the constitution is wrong I am just stating facts that children are told its not illegl to pray or read their bible at school. I am saying that those in control of our local county schools take it upon theirselves to tell the children of today they cant because it looks like they are trying to force their religion on those around them.

quote:

Originally posted by what4:
GoFish, I visited your site. ( . . .) Give me a formula that will tell me what the next creature will look like, and let's set back and watch to see if your prediction is true. Evolution has no means of predicting any future event with any accuracy.

You may have visited the site but you obviously did not read anything there otherwise you would know what "prediction" means.

Let me give you an example of the predictive nature of science: Charles Darwin came up with a theory. He "predicted" that if his theory was true, fossil evidence supporting the theory would be found. This prediction came true. Literal mountains of evidence exist.

Evolutionary biologists "predicted" that if whales evolved from land animals, we should be able to find fossils or "snapshots" of transitional animals with a blowhole that "moves" towards the back of the head the older the fossil is. This prediction came true. Read more here: http://www.talkorigins.org/features/whales/

When DNA was first discovered and its role in heredity was determined, it was predicted that - if evolution were true - it would be supported by DNA evidence. That prediction came true. In fact, it is so true that the entire mountain of fossil record could be re-buried forever and evolutionary theory would stand DNA evidence alone.

Science doesn't have a crystal ball that can predict the future as you seem the think, What4.

I have taken a lifetime to educate myself on the bible, Creationism, Intelligent Design and Evolution so that I can have intelligent conversations concerning those subjects. Why in the world would you be proud of NOT educating yourself in these subjects?

quote:

Originally posted by what4:

quote:

Originally posted by GoFish:

quote:

Originally posted by what4:
You oppose me or anyone like me teaching your children my viewpoint on the origin of mankind. Yet you feel that you have the right to teach my children your views on the origin of mankind.

You are not being consistent. You just finished posting page after page on how you would not be in favor of schools proselytizing to kids. Now you are stating the complete opposite because it fits your argument.

Nothing I said conflicts with what I have already said.

It certainly does. You fervently claim that you support the separation of church and state. Yet you wish for the school to teach kids the facts of biblical Creation.

Like I said earlier, these inconsistencies illuminate the fact that you are lying for your religion. If you lie for your religion, then by definition you don't even believe it yourself.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Hi to all,

Some have said that students can pray in school -- just as long as the teachers and principal do not instigate it. Wrong!

If that were true, then a student standing up to speak to his/her graduating class could pray and in his/her speech mention Jesus' name -- which they cannot.

If that were true, a student at a football game could get on the loudspeaker and lead the other students and athletes in a prayer -- which they cannot.

...........................

Think about it.

Bill

Mr. Gray. I have.

And for those two examples I singled out, what about the rights of other people?

1. The audience at the graduation. Some may like the prayer, granted. But it is intrusive for others.

2. Likewise, the person at the football game who gets on the loudspeaker and prays FORCES other people to listen. What are their rights? You have not done your belief system or your god, if she or he exists, a service by inflicting your beliefs on others.

Have a blessed day.

One of the funniest things I ever heard on school prayer was when that accountant in north Florence who does the Will Rogers act at the Florence City Council was runing for the state legislature he was on a program interviewing the candidates on WVNA one day.

One question was why he was runnning and he answered because he was tired of the government being involved in our lives and our schools and the government should not be telling us what to do.

The next question was about prayer in school and he answered if I'm elected I will insist and pass a law that there is prayer in the public schools.

I have never heard a politician contradict themselves so fast lol. So much for government involvement lol.

[

quote:

Originally posted by GoFish:

quote:

Originally posted by what4:
Our discussions have barely touched on ID. I have never really looked into ID to see how it makes its case.

Then how in the hell can you type page after page in support of ID and is denial of science when you haven't even bothered to know what the hell you are talking about?

You speak as if you are actually proud of being ignorant.

You keep saying that I am a powerful supporter of ID and that I have wrote many pages on it. You have accused me of pushing it on your children. All I have ever done is fight against what you push on my children. Find where I supported ID, except to say that most anything that makes people stop and consider the impossibility of evolution would be a plus. When you ask me where I stand on ID, I say that I support its concept of revealing flaws in evolution. But I don't bring ID up. You do.

Intelligent design is self explanatory in it’s name. It is an attempt to focus on life’s complicated intricacies that reveals evidence of forethought and design. In doing so it helps to expose evolution’s illogical conclusions. Without having to look into ID, I’m sure that it would be worthwhile in exposing the flaws of evolution. I think that it has a right to be introduced into the school system as much as evolution, but neither have a place in our public schools.

God has interacted with me in my life, and has proven to me that He exists. I don’t have to wait for someone else to write a book, or for another bit of evidence to be dug up, in order to know what I already believe in. I can realize the complexities of a human being without having a biology degree, and I can understand God’s word and rejoice in God’s interactions in my life without having a degree in philosophy. My focus is not on ID or evolution, but on God. I don’t have to study witchcraft to know that it is in opposition to God, and I don’t have to study evolution any more that what I already have, to know that it is a deception that hinders many people from ever knowing Jesus as Savior. I have not needed ID once in my life to establish my faith. Jesus is the one that I focus on, and not ID, and not on evolution. Jesus made Himself real in my life by interacting with me in ways that defy explanation. Has evolution done that with you?

quote:

Originally posted by Taciturn:
The majority of these kids attend church with their parents. Those that don't attend church are taught Christian values at home.[/color]

quote:

Originally posted by GoFish:
I tried to help you understand the part of our Constitution that bans this kind of action, Tacky. I can't make it any simpler than I have already. I give up.

I've always known about that part of our constitution, didn't need anyone to teach me about it. I just don't agree with it.
That's why I admire the teachers that stand on their faith & not the constitution.

quote:

Originally posted by GoFish:
You fervently claim that you support the separation of church and state. Yet you wish for the school to teach kids the facts of biblical Creation.

Like I said earlier, these inconsistencies illuminate the fact that you are lying for your religion. If you lie for your religion, then by definition you don't even believe it yourself.

GoFish, you either have a very short memory or you are intentionally lying one time after another as you misrepresent my statements and my belief.

I support the Separation of Church and State. What you and I wish to be taught is not the issue. You might wish that my kids were taught evolution, or taught that God is a fallacy. I might wish your kids were taught that God is real and that Jesus loves them. But religion, faith, and lack of faith, should not be taught in public school, where there is the possibility of someone being offended.

I don’t oppose the facts of science being taught, but I oppose illogical conclusions called theories. Mostly I oppose evolution. I like the facts that the Big Bang Theory is built on so much that I would almost forget their extreme stretch of the imagination in never-never world to build their theory. The facts that the Big Bang Theory is built around actually help to verify the word of God. I really doubt if scientists wanted to find out that our universe was created in an instant of time.

GoFish and DeepFat, I will not stand and oppose you on every facet of evolution. There may have been some evolving of animals as time went on. In the scientist’s study of life, they have found some amazing things. But not once have they gotten close to proving that life can come from lifeless substance, or that a man can evolve from a plant or worm. I believe that man evolved from nothing but a man, and that He owes His existence to God. No matter how much you try, I will not accept something so preposterous as evolution being responsible for all life. And I doubt that you will accept that God is real, and that He loves you. We are just going to have to accept that the other is not going to listen.

I did not get in this discussion to argue with you about how we were created. My first words were in response to a question as to why there were not more prayers in school. My answer was because there was so little prayer at home. I support the Separation of Church and State in the sense that no parent or teacher has the right to force their faith or lack of faith on another student. Every child and parent should be made to feel comfortable as much as reasonably possible.

quote:

Originally posted by EvilGenius:
I have never heard a politician contradict themselves so fast lol. So much for government involvement lol.

Not surprising, Evil. We are seeing the exact same thing right here in this forum. The cause is one of two things: Either the fundamentalists have a dissonance that blinds them from seeing their own hypocrisy or they are simply lying for their god.

Either is sickening to watch.

quote:

Originally posted by what4:
[

quote:

Originally posted by GoFish:
You speak as if you are actually proud of being ignorant.

You keep saying that I am a powerful supporter of ID and that I have wrote many pages on it. You have accused me of pushing it on your children. All I have ever done is fight against what you push on my children. Find where I supported ID

What4, you are argued against a literal interpretation of the Creation story. You have supported the notion that the universe if far older than the creationists claim. You have stated that life is too complex to have evolved and that it looks to be designed. You have argued for nearly all the basic tenants of Intelligent Design theory. Yet you are not familiar with Intelligent Design?

Interesting. If uneducated people like you can formulate the entire theory without studying anything but a bible, that really support the notion that ID is a "science" based on ignorance.

quote:

Jesus made Himself real in my life by interacting with me in ways that defy explanation. Has evolution done that with you?

Yes. Absolutely. The study of science and evolution has proven to me that every facet of our existence can be explained rationally. No unbelievable sky god is necessary. No wild story about some guy (who was a father and son to himself) who suffered for three days before inheriting an entire universe (not such a bad deal when you think about it) and no pressure to hang out with people who want to teach this to my kids under threat of violence.

Yes. Science has done that for me and much more. Since admitting my atheism and embracing rationality, I have become a much more spiritual person. If there was a god, I would be much closer to Him.

quote:

Originally posted by what4:
We are just going to have to accept that the other is not going to listen.

I have taken the time to educate myself, What4. You have not and are proud of that.

No, we are obviously going to have to accept the fact that you are a proponent of inflicting ignorance and stupidity on our children. At least you are practicing what you preach.

quote:

Originally posted by GoFish:
You have argued for nearly all the basic tenants of Intelligent Design theory. Yet you are not familiar with Intelligent Design?

Interesting. If uneducated people like you can formulate the entire theory without studying anything but a bible, that really support the notion that ID is a "science" based on ignorance.

There have been many articles and books that state opinions and conclusions that are simply reflections of my own. If I happen to agree or disagree with someone, that should amaze no one. Often people think alike. If I agree with most everything in ID without reading it, then why should that be so amazing. Those with common sense often think alike.

Most people can look around and see that a wondrous and powerful God must exist, simply by examining His handiwork. I’m not dependant on any person to do my thinking for me. I don't have to wait for the next Carl Saigon book to come out to know what I'll think next.

I have taken the time to get a degree in college, and attain the skills and abilities to be independant. I accept information, but I will not accept all conclusions. I'm sorry that you are looking to others to think for you.

This thread has served its purpose. It shows why interjecting religion into schools is such an extraordinarily poor idea.

DF

PRAYER NEEDS TO BE IN ALL SCHOOLS.

As long as there are history tests, there will be prayer in schools.

DF

Hi Fish,

You say, "Yes. Absolutely. The study of science and evolution has proven to me that every facet of our existence can be explained rationally. No unbelievable sky god is necessary."

Then, please explain gravity -- without God being in the picture.

Please explain how the earth came to be tilted at just the precise angle, and the precise rotation around the sun, to allow the four seasons.

Please explain how the earth came to be located at just the precise distance from the sun, which allows it to sustain life.

Without God, none of these can be explained. Referring back to Hebrews 11:1, all things are explained.

Just a thought.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Hi Fish,

You say, "Yes. Absolutely. The study of science and evolution has proven to me that every facet of our existence can be explained rationally.

Evolution is only a theory, therefore I don't see how it explains anything. Science just as easily proves a Creator. While the Bible is not a scientific textbook, it presents clear teachings of origins in Genesis which, although brief, contain the scriptural authority of the Word of God - and is about real things: the real origin, history and destiny of man and the universe. Believing in evolution is as much a faith as belief in our Creator since there is no "proof" for evolution - just theories!

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Hi Fish,

You say, "Yes. Absolutely. The study of science and evolution has proven to me that every facet of our existence can be explained rationally. No unbelievable sky god is necessary."

Then, please explain gravity -- without God being in the picture.

Please explain how the earth came to be tilted at just the precise angle, and the precise rotation around the sun, to allow the four seasons.

Please explain how the earth came to be located at just the precise distance from the sun, which allows it to sustain life.

The questions of a mere child, Bill.

I did not say that everything HAS BEEN explained. I said that everything CAN be. 500 years of modern scientific has a proven track record of illuminating the Big Questions.

After 400-some years of study of gravitation we know exactly how it works. We know it so well that we can slingshot a spaceship from earth and land it within meters of a target hundreds of millions of miles away. We just don't know exactly WHY gravity woks but have some pretty strong theories. Still, no evidence of god has emerged.

The earth is tilted because of a massive impact by a celestial body billions of years ago that created the moon. The moon was pulled from a "rib" of the planet earth, Bill. No evidence of god there.

The earth is in the Goldilocks zone because that is exactly what would be predicted if there were an accretion disc surrounding a sun the size of ours. No magic. No skyman. Just gravity, orbital mechanics and laws of nature.

There have been other planets discovered that have liquid water, Bill. No too hot, Not too cold. Just right for the formation of life. But no evidence of Jesus anywhere.

Ignorance is not bliss, Bill. Science is.

There is plenty of evidence of Jesus you are just to hardheaded to admit you are wrong.

Roller,

Besides the bible, a dubious source of historical fact, what evidence is there for jesus?

DF

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Hi Fish,

You say, "Yes. Absolutely. The study of science and evolution has proven to me that every facet of our existence can be explained rationally. No unbelievable sky god is necessary."

Then, please explain gravity -- without God being in the picture.

Please explain how the earth came to be tilted at just the precise angle, and the precise rotation around the sun, to allow the four seasons.

Please explain how the earth came to be located at just the precise distance from the sun, which allows it to sustain life.

Without God, none of these can be explained. Referring back to Hebrews 11:1, all things are explained.

Just a thought.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Bill,
Keep doing what your doing cause Jesus is smiling down upon you for speading the word of God

Well the bible is a book that was wrote by men hundreds of years ago by the men who followed Jesus during his time on earth. The bible came to being translated by one of the first Cathlic Bishops since then others have traslated it into different versions that are a little easier to understand. You should try picking up one and reading it. My personal preference is the New International Version.

I agree they should try it. they shouldnt knock it till they try it

hahahaha,

Come now, seriously. You know the bible is an unreliable source for history; it's full of stories taken from even more ancient myths and contains simply obvious tall tales.

Surely a man as influential and high profile as Jesus would have make the news after some fashion other than as the object of a Jewish cult? Where is a confirming evidence of his existence?

DF

Jesus wasn't that high profile. During his time, there were a number of different people with followings. He simply ticked off the Jewish leadership and they had Him executed. It was only a big deal to those who followed Him. That's why our accounts of him come from four eyewitnesses, the Gospels.

Besides, we know for a fact that Ponchus Pilot existed. We know for a fact that he was in charge of Roman occupied Jerusalem and his job was to prevent a Jewish uprising. We also know for a fact that the Romans used crucifixion as a means of execution. All of the Gospels have historical facts that we know to be true today.

Whether or not you chose to believe He was the Son of God is a matter of faith, but history does prove the surrounding facts of the Gospels, so the chance that He existed is greater than the chance He didn't.

nasher,

Yes Pontius Pilate did exist. There are records of his miserable administration.

Why not Jesus, then? And if the accounts of him are all anecdotal, written at least decades after he allegedly lived, how accurate can they be? Wouldn't you exaggerate the exploits of a "savior" decades later?

DF

quote:

Why not Jesus, then? And if the accounts of him are all anecdotal, written at least decades after he allegedly lived, how accurate can they be? Wouldn't you exaggerate the exploits of a "savior" decades later?

That's why there are four Gospels with overlapping events. Four eyewitnesses telling the same story are more convincing that just one.

quote:

Originally posted by Rolltideroll02:
Well the bible is a book that was wrote by men hundreds of years ago

I have nothing to say. I just wanted to see this statement posted again. Carry on.

PRAYER NEEDS TO BE IN SCHOOLS.

No, it doesn't.

DF

I will never change my mind on this. PRAYER NEEDS TO BE IN SCHOOLS THINGS WERE MUCH BETTER AND LESS CRIME WHEN PRAYER WAS IN THE SCHOOLS.

post hoc, ergo proctor hoc "It followed, so it was caused by"

Perhaps drugs have more to do with the current crime rate than prayer in schools? Permissive parenting? Lack of discipline in schools? Liberal judges?

Your argument does not follow.

DF

quote:

Originally posted by DeepFat:
Perhaps drugs have more to do with the current crime rate than prayer in schools? Permissive parenting? Lack of discipline in schools? Liberal judges?
DF

Deep, lack of faith in God, and your extraordiary faith in evolution divide us. Yet sometimes you show you are a true southerner that received many valuable lessons of morality and discipline. Maybe there is hope for you yet.