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President Bush may have ordered torture:

J Jan55Old Faithful
Legal expert: President Bush may have ordered torture:

"The administration has been almost pathological in trying to find ways to keep these people from ever seeing a real judge or a real lawyer," John Turley, a law professor at George Washington University, told the Associated Press, "and the reasons are obvious."
http://rawstory.com/news/2007/US_begins_secret_hearings_at_Gitmo_0310.html
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KindredKindredOld Faithful
Great seeing ya PBA!!!!

And forgive me if I am going to go a little off topic here, because I just turned off the news, and something is on my mind...

I am so astounded at how much all the world hates our President!!!! How much our Country has helped Latin America and now how horrible they are treating him... all the marches, rebellions, and protests!!!!

I am on my way out the door... I shall read your REAL topic when I get home, or maybe YOU CAN LOOK UP what I was just talking about and make a post about that???? That is current news, that is going to effect each and every one of us VERY soon!!!!

Also, what Andy Rooney said last night impacted me so bad!!!! The word DRAFT scares the hell out of me...

I KNOW, I KNOW I am rambling, just trying to get a few thoughts out here today before work!!!

Welcome Back PBA, and sorry to hijack your post!!!!! Forgive me please!!
S smurphPost Master
KS,, we (the US) does not do that much for S. America, check deeper, its a drop in the bucket compared to monies and programs our government has been obsessed with helping countries on the other side of the world.As for Bushs reception down there,,,maybe those folks see thru the smoke.

and PBA,,good to see ya
one thing I do not understand how can Bush give the orders for torture> doesn't that sort of thing have to fall under military ruling? But i did read some article indicating Bush did have knowledge of it happening and one even quoted a remark made by him.
G granolabarsFamiliar Face
Well, it looks like the democrats and all those who have a non conservative reputation rest on the policy that people who vote democrat cant do anything without the party. Sounds to me like its borderline slavery to me. The is no one running for the office of president that im fired up about. The news is, that there are people who are not registered voters who will register and vote against hilary, just to keep her out. But, dont let the democratic party push us into slavery and or socialisim and communisim. I wish Condelesa Rice would run. She would get my vote.
G granolabarsFamiliar Face
Well, it looks like the democrats and all those who have a non conservative reputation rest on the policy that people who vote democrat cant do anything without the party. Sounds to me like its borderline slavery to me. The is no one running for the office of president that im fired up about. The news is, that there are people who are not registered voters who will register and vote against hilary, just to keep her out. But, dont let the democratic party push us into slavery and or socialisim and communisim. I wish Condelesa Rice would run. She would get my vote. Well, it looks like the democrats and all those who have a non conservative reputation rest on the policy that people who vote democrat cant do anything without the party. Sounds to me like its borderline slavery to me. The is no one running for the office of president that im fired up about. The news is, that there are people who are not registered voters who will register and vote against hilary, just to keep her out. But, dont let the democratic party push us into slavery and or socialisim and communisim. I wish Condelesa Rice would run. She would get my vote. Well, it looks like the democrats and all those who have a non conservative reputation rest on the policy that people who vote democrat cant do anything without the party. Sounds to me like its borderline slavery to me. The is no one running for the office of president that im fired up about. The news is, that there are people who are not registered voters who will register and vote against hilary, just to keep her out. But, dont let the democratic party push us into slavery and or socialisim and communisim. I wish Condelesa Rice would run. She would get my vote.
D DelldudeHall of Famer
quote:
Originally posted by granolabars:
Well, it looks like the democrats and all those who have a non conservative reputation rest on the policy that people who vote democrat cant do anything without the party. Sounds to me like its borderline slavery to me. The is no one running for the office of president that im fired up about. The news is, that there are people who are not registered voters who will register and vote against hilary, just to keep her out. But, dont let the democratic party push us into slavery and or socialisim and communisim. I wish Condelesa Rice would run. She would get my vote. Well, it looks like the democrats and all those who have a non conservative reputation rest on the policy that people who vote democrat cant do anything without the party. Sounds to me like its borderline slavery to me. The is no one running for the office of president that im fired up about. The news is, that there are people who are not registered voters who will register and vote against hilary, just to keep her out. But, dont let the democratic party push us into slavery and or socialisim and communisim. I wish Condelesa Rice would run. She would get my vote. Well, it looks like the democrats and all those who have a non conservative reputation rest on the policy that people who vote democrat cant do anything without the party. Sounds to me like its borderline slavery to me. The is no one running for the office of president that im fired up about. The news is, that there are people who are not registered voters who will register and vote against hilary, just to keep her out. But, dont let the democratic party push us into slavery and or socialisim and communisim. I wish Condelesa Rice would run. She would get my vote.


CONDELESA RICE??? Eeker YOU GOTTA BE KIDDING???
KindredKindredOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by smurph:
KS,, we (the US) does not do that much for S. America, check deeper, its a drop in the bucket compared to monies and programs our government has been obsessed with helping countries on the other side of the world.As for Bushs reception down there,,,maybe those folks see thru the smoke.

and PBA,,good to see ya
one thing I do not understand how can Bush give the orders for torture> doesn't that sort of thing have to fall under military ruling? But i did read some article indicating Bush did have knowledge of it happening and one even quoted a remark made by him.


There was a big stink a couple of years ago about Bush and Cheney wanting to play the TORTURE game with prisoners... Civilized American Citizens had a fit over that.... so they just did it in secret??? Probably...

Sickening, absolutley sickening!!!

smurph, you are correct... six years ago, Bush made all sorts of promises to Latin America, and their governments... and he is JUST NOW going to acknowledge their existance, they have every right in the world to hate him and protest him... He lied to them... as he has lied to everyone for at least SIX years.
KindredKindredOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by Delldude:
quote:
Originally posted by granolabars:
Well, it looks like the democrats and all those who have a non conservative reputation rest on the policy that people who vote democrat cant do anything without the party. Sounds to me like its borderline slavery to me. The is no one running for the office of president that im fired up about. The news is, that there are people who are not registered voters who will register and vote against hilary, just to keep her out. But, dont let the democratic party push us into slavery and or socialisim and communisim. I wish Condelesa Rice would run. She would get my vote. Well, it looks like the democrats and all those who have a non conservative reputation rest on the policy that people who vote democrat cant do anything without the party. Sounds to me like its borderline slavery to me. The is no one running for the office of president that im fired up about. The news is, that there are people who are not registered voters who will register and vote against hilary, just to keep her out. But, dont let the democratic party push us into slavery and or socialisim and communisim. I wish Condelesa Rice would run. She would get my vote. Well, it looks like the democrats and all those who have a non conservative reputation rest on the policy that people who vote democrat cant do anything without the party. Sounds to me like its borderline slavery to me. The is no one running for the office of president that im fired up about. The news is, that there are people who are not registered voters who will register and vote against hilary, just to keep her out. But, dont let the democratic party push us into slavery and or socialisim and communisim. I wish Condelesa Rice would run. She would get my vote.


CONDELESA RICE??? Eeker YOU GOTTA BE KIDDING???


RICE??? Talk about a loose cannon!!! Hillary would beat her hands down, and the sad part is that we fellow Americans are going to keep this sort of talk going to the point that Hillary just MIGHT come out on top.... All I can say about her is that she is better than Bush.. other than that, I don't care for voting for her.... but people's talk will definitely give her a better shot...

Just human nature alone tells everyone this... As much as she is talked about, this far from election, by the time election hits, she will be on everyone's mind... oh, and the fact that BUSH CANNOT RUN AGAIN, lol.
R RollTide66Small Talker
What do Liberals have against Rice? Is it the fact she is a successful sane black woman? By no means is she a white socialist lover like Hillary. Atleast, if the liberals voted for Rice they could can killed two civil rights issues with one stone. The first woman/black president. Not for helping out the minorities any more?? LOL Hypocrites!
_Joy__Joy_Old Faithful
One more thing...if we are truly concerned with liberating a country from sickos, how do you justify becoming just like them? Even if you are torturing someone who is responsible for many deaths, it is still torture. Of course, like I said, I doubt this is the first time our country has been guilty of such an act.
G granolabarsFamiliar Face
if you ask me, if our govenment wants to torture horrible criminals to get various facts and information, they should go for it. Evil dictators who have been captured, should be tortured for sure. Have you ever watched the show 24? I also noticed none of the flaming bleeding hearts in here ignored the fact that the majority of the time, democrats all the time talk about equal rights, but then they turn around and convince anyone who votes for them that they are lost and worthless without the democratic party, sounds like enslavement. No one acknowledges it. Fact is, i dont think hillary or one of those who will help this countrys common defense, put prayer and paddlings back in school, and any other forms of public service for the American people. What is she going to do for the aids cause in africa??
J Jan55Old Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by granolabars:
Well, it looks like the democrats and all those who have a non conservative reputation rest on the policy that people who vote democrat cant do anything without the party. Sounds to me like its borderline slavery to me. The is no one running for the office of president that im fired up about. The news is, that there are people who are not registered voters who will register and vote against hilary, just to keep her out. But, dont let the democratic party push us into slavery and or socialisim and communisim. I wish Condelesa Rice would run. She would get my vote. Well, it looks like the democrats and all those who have a non conservative reputation rest on the policy that people who vote democrat cant do anything without the party. Sounds to me like its borderline slavery to me. The is no one running for the office of president that im fired up about. The news is, that there are people who are not registered voters who will register and vote against hilary, just to keep her out. But, dont let the democratic party push us into slavery and or socialisim and communisim. I wish Condelesa Rice would run. She would get my vote. Well, it looks like the democrats and all those who have a non conservative reputation rest on the policy that people who vote democrat cant do anything without the party. Sounds to me like its borderline slavery to me. The is no one running for the office of president that im fired up about. The news is, that there are people who are not registered voters who will register and vote against hilary, just to keep her out. But, dont let the democratic party push us into slavery and or socialisim and communisim. I wish Condelesa Rice would run. She would get my vote.




The democratic party is known for it's independents, it's one of the reasons they have so much trouble. Many different and independent thought and views. It's always been that way. There also were always southern democrats that also bucked the party line.

But now most of the democrats are corporate democrats just like the republicans but there is a Progressive caucuses and a Black caucuses.

There is only one socialist in the democratic party and that is Bernie Sanders from Vermont, which is not known as a liberal state. Sanders does not belong to the Socialist Party but believes in socialism.

Rice is just George Bush in a dress. Just another lying corporate republican that follows the corporate line and corporate rule. Talk about slavery look at what it's like to work for some of these corporations, and it will only get worse.

You have no rights.
J Jan55Old Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by Kindred_Spirit:
Great seeing ya PBA!!!!

And forgive me if I am going to go a little off topic here, because I just turned off the news, and something is on my mind...

I am so astounded at how much all the world hates our President!!!! How much our Country has helped Latin America and now how horrible they are treating him... all the marches, rebellions, and protests!!!!

I am on my way out the door... I shall read your REAL topic when I get home, or maybe YOU CAN LOOK UP what I was just talking about and make a post about that???? That is current news, that is going to effect each and every one of us VERY soon!!!!

Also, what Andy Rooney said last night impacted me so bad!!!! The word DRAFT scares the hell out of me...

I KNOW, I KNOW I am rambling, just trying to get a few thoughts out here today before work!!!

Welcome Back PBA, and sorry to hijack your post!!!!! Forgive me please!!



Thank You K.S.! Our polices in Latin America, or anywhere, have not helped the people. They have only been to help US corporations get control of the resources and set up sweatshop labor. It has benefited a small oligarchy in the country. A lot US aid is also military which this oligarchy hangs over the head of the people. Most of these countries have experienced military coups and repression over the decades that were supported or instigated by US. The corporate media has hidden the crimes the US has committed around the world but the people of the region know.

The people also resent US meddling in their affairs. The US will still invoke the Monroe Doctrine and claim it is under of "sphere of influence." You will here the region referred to as "Our Back Yard."

They also are protesting Bush's illegal war against Iraq and threatening Iran.

This is an interesting point because the corporate media has us believe that our policies are helping the people so when there are huge protests Americans are confused. It seems to make little sense. Our right wing pundits will tell us these people are ungrateful, crazy and jealous but the truth is our own media is lying to us.
Southern PatriotSouthern PatriotHall of Famer
quote:
Originally posted by NashBama:
We're griping about torturing people who will saw someone's head off on camera? Please, if torturing a heartless murderer will provide information that can save American lives, I say torture away.


Remember Nash, these are the same people who think holding a wet sponge over a persons nose and mouth to make them think they are drowning is torture.
Phoenix RisingPhoenix RisingPost Master
quote:
Originally posted by Southern Patriot:
Everybody wants to talk about all the "rights" they have lost under Pres Bush. My question to everybody is... What individual rights have any of YOU personally lost? True, personal rights, not great platitude's of how we "all" have lost them.


I've noticed too how vague they are in describing how G.W. "has destroyed America and the middle class".
Southern PatriotSouthern PatriotHall of Famer
quote:
Originally posted by Phoenix Rising:
quote:
Originally posted by Southern Patriot:
Everybody wants to talk about all the "rights" they have lost under Pres Bush. My question to everybody is... What individual rights have any of YOU personally lost? True, personal rights, not great platitude's of how we "all" have lost them.


I've noticed too how vague they are in describing how G.W. "has destroyed America and the middle class".


I still go where I want, when I want. I call who I want, when I want. I can sit on here and bad mouth the President (if I wanted to), when I want. What rights have I lost?
Karl LeubaKarl LeubaPost Master
quote:
Originally posted by Southern Patriot:
Everybody wants to talk about all the "rights" they have lost under Pres Bush. My question to everybody is... What individual rights have any of YOU personally lost? True, personal rights, not great platitude's of how we "all" have lost them.

As a Bush supporter, you may have lost NO rights at all.

I have. I was denied admission to two appearances by GW Bush in The Arizona Veterans Memorial Auditorium BECAUSE I AM A REGISTERED DEMOCRAT. I have been prohibited from standing along motorcade routes to the President's Appearances in Phoenix because I was part of a group protesting the war in Iraq. I have been turned away from walking to a retirement home where the president was appearing...because I had not obtained an admission ticket to their parking lot, and the parking lot was closed to demonstrators of any kind.

After 40 years of carrying a license to transport hazardous materials I have been required to PAY to have a security check completed to determine my loyalty so that I could continue to be available to transport Haz Mat.

I have been required to remove my shoes, and allow a federal agent to examine my laptop computer before borading an aircraft.

I have been required to deposit my finger nail clippers in a basket to be picked up after meeting with a Social Security Agent.

I have been restricted behind barbed wire topped chain link fencing in order to publicly express my opinion.

WHAT RIGHTS DO YOU HAVE TO LOOSE BEFORE YOU DECIDE YOU HAVE LOST ANY RIGHTS.
S smurphPost Master
okay,we are there,reguardless how we got there, we are engaged in a war. Now what exactly is the problem that it is being fought to please the UN and every move made having to be so PC, all this was ignored remember to GET there,so whats up ?
I have to be totally honest here, my thoughts would be to take things to another level and make a giant parking lot of Iraq and Iran,and any of the other countries wishing to flex a little muscle. Sure there will be innocents killed,but THAT is already happening,just much slower pace.
Southern PatriotSouthern PatriotHall of Famer
quote:
Originally posted by EdEKit:
quote:
Originally posted by Southern Patriot:
Everybody wants to talk about all the "rights" they have lost under Pres Bush. My question to everybody is... What individual rights have any of YOU personally lost? True, personal rights, not great platitude's of how we "all" have lost them.

As a Bush supporter, you may have lost NO rights at all.

I have. I was denied admission to two appearances by GW Bush in The Arizona Veterans Memorial Auditorium BECAUSE I AM A REGISTERED DEMOCRAT. I have been prohibited from standing along motorcade routes to the President's Appearances in Phoenix because I was part of a group protesting the war in Iraq. I have been turned away from walking to a retirement home where the president was appearing...because I had not obtained an admission ticket to their parking lot, and the parking lot was closed to demonstrators of any kind. I can't speak to the security measures the secret service uses, but if your have followed him around this much they might think you are a stalker. Eeker

After 40 years of carrying a license to transport hazardous materials I have been required to PAY to have a security check completed to determine my loyalty so that I could continue to be available to transport Haz Mat. So they changed the way you go about renewing your liscense to transport HM's. I don't think that qualifies as a right. You had to pay to get your CDL to drive the truck. What's the difference?
I have been required to remove my shoes, and allow a federal agent to examine my laptop computer before borading an aircraft. This is a security measure. If you don't like it, don't fly. I don't think flying qualifies as a right either.

I have been required to deposit my finger nail clippers in a basket to be picked up after meeting with a Social Security Agent. Don't know what in the **** you are talking about here.
I have been restricted behind barbed wire topped chain link fencing in order to publicly express my opinion.
If you're talking about the white house, yell louder, I'm sure he can here you. You can still go to Congress and sit in the balcony all you want.
WHAT RIGHTS DO YOU HAVE TO LOOSE BEFORE YOU DECIDE YOU HAVE LOST ANY RIGHTS.


You need to go back and try again. These "rights" you listed here are very weak.
BrentenmanBrentenmanHall of Famer
I know this for a fact: under Gun-Grabber In Thief Klinton, we got the 1994 "assault weapons ban". That ended in 2004. Someone by the initials of GWB didn't renew it. If I remember correctly, a large majority of those in Congress/Senate who voted for it, which allowed the Gun Grabber In Thief to sign it into law, lost their jobs that following November.

So, I/we actually got some rights and priviledges back....
S smurphPost Master
brentman,, don't get your panties in a wad,nobody is gonna come take your toys,,,,yet
Have you taken time to read the Patriot Act in its entire context if you think you have not lost any rights. You might come to see that those toys can be taken from you at any given time. Totally in control of the governments descretion now.
NashBamaNashBamaOld Faithful
quote:
As a Bush supporter, you may have lost NO rights at all.

I have. I was denied admission to two appearances by GW Bush in The Arizona Veterans Memorial Auditorium BECAUSE I AM A REGISTERED DEMOCRAT. I have been prohibited from standing along motorcade routes to the President's Appearances in Phoenix because I was part of a group protesting the war in Iraq. I have been turned away from walking to a retirement home where the president was appearing...because I had not obtained an admission ticket to their parking lot, and the parking lot was closed to demonstrators of any kind.

After 40 years of carrying a license to transport hazardous materials I have been required to PAY to have a security check completed to determine my loyalty so that I could continue to be available to transport Haz Mat.

I have been required to remove my shoes, and allow a federal agent to examine my laptop computer before borading an aircraft.

I have been required to deposit my finger nail clippers in a basket to be picked up after meeting with a Social Security Agent.

I have been restricted behind barbed wire topped chain link fencing in order to publicly express my opinion.

WHAT RIGHTS DO YOU HAVE TO LOOSE BEFORE YOU DECIDE YOU HAVE LOST ANY RIGHTS.


Doesn't sound like you had any rights violated, sounds like you're a security risk. I had to mail a pocket knife to myself because I forgot to take it off my key ring at the airport. It cost $6 to mail a tiny knife from Nashville to Murfreesboro. Were my rights violated? No, it's just part of living in a post 9-11 world. I didn't gripe, I just got over it.
_Joy__Joy_Old Faithful
And what happens when you torture someone and it turns out they are innocent? Where exactly do you draw the line & who enforces the line? This is not a wise decision, IMHO.

I don't agree with a PC war either, but that's exactly what we've engaged in. If we had not been so afraid of offending religious groups all over the world, we'd be done now. If you have info that the enemy is in a mosque, it's war! Bomb the crap out of it. We tip-toe into something rather than go at like what it is. I hate war, but if you've made the decision to declare one, get the job done & get out.
BrentenmanBrentenmanHall of Famer
quote:
Originally posted by smurph:
brentman,, don't get your panties in a wad,nobody is gonna come take your toys,,,,yet
Have you taken time to read the Patriot Act in its entire context if you think you have not lost any rights. You might come to see that those toys can be taken from you at any given time. Totally in control of the governments descretion now.


The President can declare Martial Law, like Abe Lincoln did in 1861, in the threat of a national emergency.

Second, most states have passed or in the process of legislative act, laws to prevent the gov't from taking guns during times of emergency. This is the "Katrina Act" in response to what Nagin and his cronies did to law-abiding citizens post Katrina....
Sassy KimsSassy KimsOld Faithful
[QUOTE]Originally posted by _Joy_:
And what happens when you torture someone and it turns out they are innocent?

QUOTE]

You are confusing torture with punishment. They are not the same. Torture is used to extract information or gain compliance...it has nothing to do with guilt or innocence.

Punishment is a penalty imposed for wrong doing.

When punishment becomes excessive for the wrong doing, it is abuse or brutality.
J Jan55Old Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by smurph:
KS,, we (the US) does not do that much for S. America, check deeper, its a drop in the bucket compared to monies and programs our government has been obsessed with helping countries on the other side of the world.As for Bushs reception down there,,,maybe those folks see thru the smoke.

and PBA,,good to see ya
one thing I do not understand how can Bush give the orders for torture> doesn't that sort of thing have to fall under military ruling? But i did read some article indicating Bush did have knowledge of it happening and one even quoted a remark made by him.


Thanks!
Yes Smurph, you're right it does fall under military ruling,but Bush can give a order if he wants too, you just don't hear of it.They keep these types of orders top secret.
NashBamaNashBamaOld Faithful
quote:
Yes Smurph, you're right it does fall under military ruling,but Bush can give a order if he wants too, you just don't hear of it.They keep these types of orders top secret.


If it's top secret, how do you know about it? Did you read about it in one of you fake articles like you posted earlier this morning?
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