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Hi to all my Forum Friends,

As Christian believers, we have all had God Moments, those moments when we know that the Holy Spirit is nudging us, telling us to  do something a wee bit different than we had planned today.  Well, recently I definitely had a God Moment, that time when the Holy  Spirit suggested, "Bill, I want you to write this."  No, this was not an inspiration such as the writers of the Bible had; but, inspiration  such as all believers have -- whether to write something today, to do something special for another today, to do something special  for the Lord today, etc.

What was my recent God Moment?  A few weeks ago I received one of my regular magazines from a church whose theology I know  is not in line with mainstream Christianity.  I receive magazines from this church and several of its sister churches which spun out of  the Worldwide Church of God (Herbert W. Armstrong) some years back.  Their theology is skewed, but their knowledge of, and  writings on, world events in light of the Bible is very good.

In this recent issue there is an article titled "What Is Hell?"  This got my attention for I know that this group of churches believe in  annihilationism for all non-believers, and that before the final judgment non-believers are given a second chance to believe.  But, after  the final judgment all non-believers will just be totally annihilated, gone, no more existence.  Both the second chance and the  annihilationism are totally against what the Bible teaches (Matthew 25:41,46) and, in a way, their annihilationism aligns with the  atheist view that, after this life, there is nothing more.  This church does believe in heaven, but, not hell.

When I read their article, I felt that I wanted to write about the Biblical teaching of heaven, hell, and salvation.  But, I got busy with  other things and let that thought slide to the back burner.

Then, the following week, I received an e-mail from a Christian sister in our church, Ruth.  She wrote:

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Hello Brother Bill,  Thank you for your e-mails and for your online ministry.  I learn from them and I have also shared some of them  with my friends (some are Roman Catholic) who I know will be interested and will benefit from what you write.  I want to ask a favor.   Last weekend, I was with two college classmates from the Philippines.  They are Roman Catholic.

They know I'm a Christian and when we were driving, one asked me about purgatory.  I told her that it is not in the Bible and that only Christ can save.  She also asked about Abraham's Bosom.  I wanted to give her some Bible references.  But, I couldn't think of them at that time.

And my other classmate said, "I believe that there is no hell."   I told her there is; it's in the Bible.  I even asked her where does she thinks Hitler is right now?  Then the topic was changed.

Through the course of the day I did share on and off about God's love and Christ's salvation in my life, but did not focus on purgatory and hell.  I was wondering if you can give a Biblical explanation of hell and purgatory so that I can share it with them.  I know you have lots of writing to do for your ministry, so just do it only when you have the time.  Thank you and may the Lord bless you and Ate Dory as you continue spreading His Good News.

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This was my Holy Spirit nudge!

By the way, for my non-Filipino Friends, "Ate" in Tagalog means "older sister" -- a term of respect.

In the Christian community, in the fringe communities, and in the cult and world religions communities -- there are many views of heaven and hell.   In this writing, I will focus mostly on hell.  When I was much younger and was not yet a Christian, but, still felt that inner urge which God instills in every human being to seek Him -- I wanted to find a church which would tell me there is no hell.   Why?  Because if there is no hell, then I could go to church on Sunday -- and live like hell the rest of the week.

I found a chaplain, from a major denominational church, at Bergstrom Air Force Base in Austin, Texas, who assured me that hell is only a myth.  Wow!  What a relief!  Party time!

I now believe that this was only his own personal view and not that of his denomination; for I have found that most churches who do not believe in hell -- also do not believe in the Trinity.  And, his denomination holds a trinitarian belief.

But, the trend which is becoming more prevalent in many Liberal Theology churches, and in the "Feel Good" Theology churches,  varies from just not talking about "hell" because it makes folks uncomfortable -- to actually denying that hell is real.  The thought of hell sure made me uncomfortable before I was a Christian -- so, I can relate to why many people flock to the "Feel Good" churches.   You know the old story -- give God an hour in church on Sunday morning; then, do your own thing the rest of the week.

Currently, a major controversy is flying all over the cyberworld because of a book written by Rob Bell, pastor of the Mars Hill Church of Grandville, Michigan.  The book is "Love Wins: A Book About Heaven, Hell, and the Fate of Every Person Who Has Ever Lived."   And, while, in many interviews Rob Bell denies being a Universalist (everyone goes to heaven) -- his own promotional video makes it clear that he does not believe nor teach that non-believers are destined to spend eternity in hell, nor that salvation is found only through Jesus Christ.   http://vimeo.com/20272585

In this video Rob Bell tells us that, if Jesus saves us from hell -- that means that Jesus is saving us from God.  And, as Rob Bell says, "What kind of God is that?"   Apparently Rob Bell and I do not read the same Bible; for in my Bible Jesus Christ tells me, "I  am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life; no one comes to the Father but through Me" (John 14:6).

Can a person be saved without having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ?  In 1 John 5:12 we read, "He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God -- does not have the life."   What is "the life" this verse is talking about?  It is eternal life in the presence of God.  And, this Scripture verse is clearly telling us that anyone who does not have the Son, Jesus Christ; who  does not have a personal relationship with the Son, Jesus Christ -- does not have eternal life with God.  What else is left?   Only eternal life in hell.

How can a person have a personal, saving relationship with Jesus Christ?   Jesus Himself tells us, "Behold, I stand at the door and  knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me"  (Revelation 3:20).

In the Jewish culture of Jesus' day, the most intimate thing a person could do with friends was to dine with them.  Jesus is telling everyone, "If you will open the door of your heart, I will come in and dine with you.  I will be your very intimate Friend."  But, He cannot open the door of your heart.

Picture a door with no door knob on the outside; the only way to open that door is from the inside, within you.  However, when you do open the door of your heart and invite Him to come in, He will not hesitate.  From that moment, you will have eternal life in  Christ (John 6:47).

All a non-believer has to do to have eternal life in Christ -- is to acknowledge Him, believe that He came, died, and resurrected to make salvation and eternal life available to you.  Believe that Jesus Christ is patiently waiting, waiting to be invited into your heart, into your life, to be your very Best Friend -- and then, invite Him to come in.

Is it really that simple?  Yes!  If a person will sincerely open his/her heart and invite Jesus Christ to come in -- the Holy Spirit will indwell and seal this person (Ephesians 1:13, 4:30) until the day of redemption, i.e., for eternity.  Ephesians 2:8-9 tells us that no one can earn eternal life in Christ through personal works, i.e., they cannot be righteous enough to earn entry into heaven (Isaiah 
64:6).  Yet, all can have eternal life in Christ.  Ephesians 2:8-9 tells us salvation is a "gift" from God, a gift freely given to all who will,  by grace, through faith -- believe and receive His gift.  Yes, it is that simple.

John 10:27-28, "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand."  That is His promise to all of us who believe.  All we have to do is, by grace, through faith -- believe, open the door, and invite Him to enter.

What happens to all people who choose to deny God, to deny Jesus Christ?  What happens to all the people who have chosen to worship false gods in the many world religions which deny God, Jesus Christ, and the need to have a relationship with Him for salvation?  In denying God; all of these people have chosen to condemn themselves to spend eternity outside the presence of God.

If not in the presence of God; then, what eternal destination is available to all who have chosen to spend eternity outside His presence?  The only other eternal destination is hell.  There is no other.  Is God sending all those people to hell?  No.  They are sending themselves to hell by denying God and refusing His gift of eternal life.

Many Liberal Theology churches are teaching that there is no hell, that a loving God would not send anyone to eternal hell.  For some reason, they cannot seem to understand what the Bible teaches -- that God sends no one to hell.  Heaven or hell is a personal choice every person must make, individually.  Everyone who goes to hell -- does so because this was his/her own personal choice.

The Unitarian Universalist church, a cult church, teaches that everyone, regardless of how you have lived, will eventually go to heaven.  This is called Universalism, i.e., universal salvation, and denies the existence of hell.  The basis for this belief is found in secular humanism and in personal worldly desires (much as I had before I was a believer and when I was looking for a "no hell" church).  This teaching has absolutely no Biblical support.

We know that our Roman Catholic Friends believe in purgatory.  What is purgatory?  Is it real?  Is it Biblical?

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Excerpts from the Roman Catholic apologetics and evangelization web site, Catholic Answers tell us:

PURGATORY  ( http://www.catholic.com/library/Purgatory.asp )

The Catechism of the Catholic Church defines purgatory as a "purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy  of heaven," which is experienced by those "who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified" (CCC 1030).  The  purification is necessary because, as Scripture teaches, nothing unclean will enter the presence of God in heaven (Rev. 21:27) and, while we may die with our mortal sins forgiven, there can still be many impurities in us, specifically venial sins and the temporal punishment due to sins already forgiven.

Two Judgments:  When we die, we undergo what is called the particular, or individual, judgment.  Scripture says that "it is  appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment" (Heb. 9:27). We are judged instantly and receive our reward, for good  or ill. We know at once what our final destiny will be.

At the end of time, when Jesus returns, there will come the general judgment to which the Bible refers, for example, in Matthew 25:31-32: "When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.  Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats."  In  this general judgment all our sins will be publicly revealed (Luke 12:2–5).

Augustine said, in "The City of God," that "temporary punishments are suffered by some in this life only, by others after death, by  others both now and then; but all of them before that last and strictest judgment" (21:13).  It is between the particular and general  judgments, then, that the soul is purified of the remaining consequences of sin: "I tell you, you will never get out till you have paid the  very last copper" (Luke 12:59).

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Underline emphasis in the excerpts above are mine.   In the excerpt above CCC 1030 is short for "Catechism of the Catholic Church 1030" which deals with The Final Purification, or Purgatory.

Biblically, there are several problems with the teaching of purgatory found in these Catechism excerpts.

First, is the claim that although we are forgiven -- we must still be purified, or cleansed, in purgatory through our own works or  through the prayers of others.   Yet, to the sinful thief on the cross who believed, Jesus said, "Today you will be with Me in Paradise"  (Luke 23:43)  Jesus doesn't tell him that after he spends time in purgatory, he will be forgiven, cleansed, and can then enter into  Paradise.  No, Jesus tells the repentant thief, "Today you will be with Me in Paradise!"

And, in John 19:30, Jesus declares, "It is finished."  What is finished?  His work of salvation has been finished; there is no more to be done.  After His declaration of completion -- all who will, by grace, through faith, believe and receive His finished work HAS salvation into eternal life in Christ.

And, in John 17:4 (nkjv), in Jesus' intercessory prayer for His disciples, and for us, He prays to the Father, "I have glorified You on  the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do."  His work of atonement, His work of salvation, was finished.   The rest is up to each of us individually -- to accept or to reject that wonderful "gift" of eternal life.

1 John 1:7 tells us, ". . . the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin."

1 John 1:9 tells us, ". . . He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

Since we have these promises of His cleansing for all who, by grace, through faith, have believed and received Him -- why would anyone need further cleansing or purging in a place called purgatory?

Second, is the misinterpretation, or the taking out of context Luke 12:59 to imply that this verse is speaking of suffering more in  purgatory to gain purification.

In this Scripture passage found in Luke 12:54-59 Jesus is telling the gathered multitude of Jews (using an analogy familiar to them in  their agricultural community) that they can tell from the clouds and the winds what kind of weather they will have -- but, cannot even recognize when their promised Messiah (the great Divider from Luke 12:49-53) has come into their midst.

Then, using their familiarity with judges -- He speaks of their practice of taking an opponent for judgment before a magistrate -- when they themselves still owe such a debt to God.  And, because of this debt, they will be thrown into prison, i.e., spiritual prison.  And, they will not be allowed out of that "spiritual prison" until they have paid the debt which their Messiah came to pay for them; a debt  which they cannot pay even though it might only be equal to a widow's mite, a penny, or a cent.

The Greek word for the "cent" found in Luke 12:59 is "lepton" which is, according to Strong's Concordance, "a small brass coin, worth about a 1/5 of a cent."   In other words, for such a small debt their eternal lives will be thrown away -- when their Messiah had come to "pay in full" all their debt and set them free into eternal life with God.

This, I believe, is a much more accurate understanding of Luke 12:59 than to say that it means that all "not quite forgiven" believers will have to spend time in purgatory to be forgiven for a debt which He has already "paid in full."   It Is Finished!

Third, is their description and timing of the two judgments -- Particular Judgment and General Judgment.

The Catechism excerpt above sees the Scripture passage of Matthew 25:31-32 as the General Judgment, or final judgment.  Yet, the judgment in this passage, which Jesus calls the "Sheep and Goat Judgment" (verse 32), happens at Christ's Second Coming when He will sit on His throne, the throne of David in Jerusalem, (verse 31) to establish His Millennial Kingdom on earth for 1000 years.  This cannot be the final judgment for He still will reign on earth for 1000 years. The final judgment happens at the end of His 1000 year Millennial Reign (Revelation 20:4) and is called the Great White Throne Judgment (Revelation 20:11-15).

This Catechism excerpt tells us regarding the Particular Judgment, "We are judged instantly and receive our reward, for good or ill.  We know at once what our final destiny will be."

We had better have that issue resolved BEFORE we die.  There is no reason to wait until we have died -- to know if we are going to heaven or to hell.  We CAN KNOW today if we are saved and have eternal life, eternal security, in Christ.

What does Scripture teach us about Eternal Security?

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes HAS eternal life" (John 6:47).  Also, in John 3:16, ". . . but HAVE eternal life."   And, in  John 3:36, "He who believes in the Son HAS eternal life. . ."   In John 5:24, ". . .he who hears My voice, and believes Him who sent  Me, HAS eternal life."

How can there be any doubt that if one, by the grace of God, through faith in Jesus Christ (Ephesians 2:8), believes and receives Him (John 1:12) -- he/she HAS eternal life assured, through the personal promises of Jesus Christ.  What can be more certain than,  "He (she) who believes HAS eternal life"?

Every Christian believer can KNOW, in this life, that he/she has eternal life in Christ.  There should be no doubt; for in doubt, how can there be eternal security in Christ?  Always keep Romans 8:1 in mind and in your heart, "There is therefore now NO condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."   A person who, by grace, through faith, has believed -- HAS eternal life in Christ.

What does Scripture teach us about our moment of our mortal death?

2 Corinthians 5:6-8, "Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent  from the Lord -- for we walk by faith, not by sight -- we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord."

Philippians 1:22-23, "But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose.  But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better."

These Scripture passages clearly tell us that, when a believer dies -- he/she is with Christ, is home with the Lord.  After our last breath in this mortal body; our next breath will be in the presence of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

But, if believers who die must first go into purgatory, and, if those Scripture passages above are true -- then, Jesus Christ will have to be in purgatory also, for us to be with Him.  And, we know that is not true. 

 

Jesus Christ ascended into heaven (Acts 1:9-11), is sitting at the right hand of God the Father (Hebrews 8:1, 10:12, 12:2, 1 Peter 3:22), is our only mediator between man and God (1  Timothy 2:5), and is continually interceding for all believers before the Father (Romans 8:34).  Jesus Christ is not in purgatory; nor do we go to purgatory.

Some may ask, "Then, why did Lazarus and the rich man (Luke 16:19-31) not go directly into heaven -- but, instead they went into Hades?"

Yes, that is true -- for when Jesus taught about Lazarus and the rich man, He had not yet gone to the cross to buy our pardon, nor had He resurrected to assure our resurrection into eternal life.  At that point people who died in faith did not go directly into heaven; but, like the Old Testament saints, went instead into the Bosom of Abraham, i.e., the Paradise side of Hades.

We read in Luke 16:19-31 that the rich man died and went into Hades/Torment, while Lazarus went into Hades/Paradise, which we also call the Bosom of Abraham.  And, we read that there was no way for either to cross to the other side.  Because Jesus Christ used Lazarus' name, we know that this is a true story and not a parable.  Study all of His parables -- and you will find a lesson wrapped around local customs and lifestyles, i.e., agriculture, local prejudices such as the Jews and the Samaritans, local dining habits, etc. -- but, in these parables, you will find no personal names.  The story of Lazarus and the rich man is a true story.

Jesus told us, "I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life; no one comes to the Father but through Me"  (John 14:6).   The Old  Testament saints believed and looked forward to their Messiah.  Upon their deaths, those who, by faith believed, went into Paradise, Abraham's Bosom, to await their Messiah.  During His earthly ministry and until His death and resurrection, the same was true of all  New Testament believers who died.

Yet, when He resurrected and led the captives, the saints in Paradise, free (Ephesians 4:8) and into heaven -- it can clearly be said that they were entering heaven through Jesus Christ.  Since then, all believers, upon mortal death, immediately enter the presence of God through Jesus Christ.  It can truly be said -- once we breathe our last breath in this mortal body, our next breath will be in the  presence of our God.

When Christ died on the cross, He told the repentant thief, "Today you shall be with Me in Paradise" (Luke 23:43).   Christ went into Hades/Paradise for three days, the thief went with Him.  When He departed Hades/Paradise, He took those faithful believers, Old Testament believers, pre-resurrection New Testament believers who were in Paradise, and that thief who believed on the cross -- into  heaven with Him (Ephesians 4:8).  From that moment on, the gates of Hades/Paradise were closed, out of business.  In my mind, I see a sign posted on the gate of Hades/Paradise/Abraham's Bosom: "Moved To New Eternal Location -- Heaven"

Yet, the other side of Hades, Hades/Torment, was, and is still, open for business -- and, unfortunately, doing a brisk business.   Those, like the rich man of Luke 16, and all non-believers who have died -- whether they were just vanilla-flavored non-believers, secularist, atheists, those in the many world religions, those in non-Christian churches, those in New Age and other false and cult religions -- are all still waiting in Hades/Torment for their resurrection into their eternal mortal bodies for final judgment.

This will happen after the 1000 year Millennial Reign of Jesus Christ on earth.  All non-believers will then be resurrected from Hades/Torment into their new eternal, immortal bodies (Revelation 20:5) and will stand before Jesus Christ at the Great White Throne Judgment; their final judgment of punishment.  From there they will be cast into the Lake of Fire, i.e., hell, for eternity (Revelation 20:11-15).

There WILL BE two judgments of believers and non-believers as the Roman Catholic Catechism teaches.  But, not the two which it teaches.  They teach a Particular Judgment immediately upon death -- when the person discovers his/her final destination.  Yet, in their teaching, that person does not get to go into his final destination yet -- for he first has to go into Purgatory for cleansing.

The Bible teaches that all believers who have died in Christ, and all believers still alive, i.e., the universal or worldwide church or body of believers, will be Raptured (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, 1 Corinthians 15:51-53, John 14:1-3, Revelation 4:1), given our immortal  bodies, and taken into heaven.  There, all believers will stand before Christ at the Believer's Judgment, i.e., Bema Seat Judgment (2 Corinthians 5:10, 1 Corinthians 3:11-15, 1 Peter 5:4), a judgment of rewards.  Yet, everyone who will be present at the Believer's Judgment will have known before death that they have eternal life in Christ.

At the Rapture, all believers (those still living and those who have died in Christ), all Old Testament and New Testament saints, will be resurrected into our immortal, glorified bodies when we meet the Lord in the clouds, or in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, 1 Corinthians 15:50-53).  Roman Catholics do not believe in the Rapture which is taught in these passages -- for it conflicts with their  teaching of purgatory.

Let's look at another aspect of the Roman Catholic teaching on purgatory:

The Catechism of the Catholic Church defines purgatory as a "purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven," which is experienced by those "who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified" (CCC 1030).

They teach that we need purgatory to make us clean enough to enter heaven.  Yet, Isaiah 64:6 tells us that our righteousness, our works, are like filthy garments in the eyes of God.  And, nowhere in Scripture are we told that we can cleanse those filthy garments, our righteousness.  Then, how are we to enter heaven since nothing unrighteous, or unclean, can enter heaven (Revelation 21:27)?

No mortal man can ever be righteousness enough to enter God's heaven.  So, Jesus Christ covers all believers with His righteousness; the blood of Christ becomes our righteousness -- for all who, by grace, through faith in Jesus Christ, believe and receive His gift of eternal life.  Believers do not need the purification of the Roman Catholic Purgatory; for we have the righteous, perfect blood of Christ cleansing us.  We are covered by His blood, His righteousness (Romans 3:24-25, 5:9, Ephesians 1:7,  Revelation 1:5).

The Roman Catholic Catechism, in the excerpt above, tells us, "The purification is necessary because. . . there can still be many  impurities in us, specifically venial sins and the temporal  punishment due to sins already forgiven."

This teaches that we still have to receive punishment from God -- for sins which He has already forgiven.  Yet, the Bible teaches  "Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus"  (Romans 8:1)

Who is "in Christ Jesus"?   "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name" (John 1:12).  All who, by grace, through faith in Christ Jesus, have believed -- are "in Christ Jesus" -- and can rightfully claim the title of "forgiven sinner."

Romans 5:1, "Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ."   Justified means that God has declared believers to be just, cleansed, because He has imputed, attributed, the righteousness of Jesus Christ to all believers.   So, since there is "no condemnation" -- since we are "children of God" -- since we have been "justified" -- we have peace  with God through our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.  For such forgiven sinners -- there is no more punishment; for our sins, past, present, and future -- have been forgiven.  And, we have His promise on this, "He who believes HAS eternal life" (John 6:47).

Believers will stand before Jesus Christ in the Believer's Judgment (often called the Bema Seat Judgment) which is a judgment, not of punishment, but of rewards.  This judgment will occur during the seven year Tribulation when all believers have been raptured into heaven. 

 

During that seven years, there are two major events:  the Believer's Judgment (2 Corinthians 5:10, 1 Corinthians 3:11-15) to prepare the Bride of Christ for her Bridegroom, and then, the Wedding Feast of the Lamb (Revelation 19:5--9).

At the Believer's Judgment, many believers will receive great rewards; others of us will receive few.  However, the greatest reward -- which all believers are assured -- is that we WILL spend eternity in the presence of our God.

If hell and purgatory are true; we should find them in the Bible.  Do we?

Hell (place of the dead):  occurs 54 in the KJV,  occurs 32 times in the NKJV,  occurs 13 times in the NASB

Sheol (place of the dead):  occurs 18 times in the NKJV, occurs 67 times in the NASB

Hades (hell, place of the dead):   occurs 11 times in the NKJV,  occurs 10 times in the NASB

Lake of Fire:   occurs 4 times in the NASB,  occurs 4 times in the NKJV,  occurs 4 times in the KJV

Purgatory:  Not found in any of the Bible translations.

However, vague references to purgatory are found in the Apocrypha -- and some Bible passages have been mistakenly used in an attempt to justify the doctrine of purgatory.  That, and the writings of the Popes and other church leaders, is the basis for the  doctrine of purgatory:

Isaiah 4:4, "When the Lord has washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and purged the blood of Jerusalem from her midst,  by the spirit of judgment and by the spirit of burning."  In the Roman Catholic teaching, it is argued that this "spirit of burning" -- in  this context, refers to the fires of judgment - a hint of the doctrine of purgatory.

Yet, this Scripture verse is clearly speaking of God's relationship with the nation, Israel -- and has nothing to do with the New Testament church.  In my view, this passage in Isaiah 4:2-6 is God's promise to His people, Israel, that, although they will go through the fires of the Tribulation (Matthew 24:15-28, Revelation 6 - 19), the 70th Week of Daniel (Daniel 9:24-27), Jacob's Trouble or Distress (Jeremiah 30:7) -- He will bring the remnant of Israel through the "fire of tribulation" and, "In that day the Branch of the  LORD (their Messiah) will be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth will be the pride and the adornment of the survivors of Israel (Isaiah 4:2).  This has nothing to do with the doctrine of purgatory.

2 Maccabees 12:43-44, "He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he  sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice.  In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had  the resurrection of the dead in view; for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death."

2 Maccabees 12:46, "Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin."

There is no praying for the dead, wherever they are -- for their eternal destiny was sealed in this life.  Once a person passes from this life into eternity -- there is no reason to pray for them.  We see this proven in the true story Jesus told of Lazarus and the rich man in  Luke 16:19-31.  The choices made in this life determine our eternal home -- heaven or hell.  And, there is no more reason to pray for  those who have died.  Spend your time praying for the living -- that, those who do not yet believe will turn from the world, and turn to follow Jesus Christ into eternal life.

King David fasted and prayed fervently for his infant son while the baby still lived.  Once the baby died, David stopped praying, cleaned himself, and ate.  There was nothing more he could do.  Yet, he celebrated because he knew he would see his son again in heaven.   In 2 Samuel 12:23 David says of his dead infant son, "But now he has died; why should I fast?  Can I bring him back again?  I will go to him, but he will not return to me."

And, that is how we should view death.  Celebrate the "Home Going" of all our loved ones who died believing in Christ -- for we who are believers, as was David -- look forward to a glorious reunion in heaven where Jesus Christ will be the Host.  And, mourn our loved ones and friends who died not knowing Jesus Christ -- for we shall never see them again. 

 

This should be great motivation for us to be sharing the Gospel will all our family and friends while there is still time for them to believe and receive His free gift of eternal life.

In closing, let me emphasize that a person's salvation is not determined by his/her belief about purgatory, for or against the doctrine of purgatory.  A person's salvation is based only upon his/her relationship with Jesus Christ.  

 

And, our eternal security stands upon knowing that Christ's righteousness is imputed, attributed, to all who believe.  No one is saved by a church.  We are most often saved in a church, but not by a church, nor by its traditions and dogmas.  We are saved only by having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

So, you may ask, then what does it matter if a person believes in purgatory or not?  A Christian should always be able to rest in the  knowledge of his/her own eternal security in Christ.  How can a person have eternal security; how can a person have peace with God  -- if that person does not KNOW if he is going to heaven or not?  A person's salvation does not rest upon a belief or disbelief in  purgatory.  But, his/her eternal security most certainly does rest upon believing Jesus Christ when He tells us, "He who believes HAS eternal life"  (John 6:47).

If you are a believer today -- trust our Lord enough to believe His promises.  If you are not yet a believer -- know that your eternal destiny is resting upon your relationship, or lack of relationship, with Jesus Christ.  Yes, you can wait to make a commitment to Him until after you have lived a worldly life.  He will always welcome you and receive you into the kingdom of God -- at any time.  But, can YOU say WHEN your last breath will occur?

What if it happens before you make that commitment?  What if you have a sudden heart attack or are in a fatal accident -- and do not have time to invite Him to come in and be your Friend, your Savior; then, what will happen to you?  

 

The Bible is very clear about that.  Revelation 20:11-14 tell us about the Great White Throne Judgment for all non-believers, many who died before they had a chance to make that last minute commitment to Christ.  This is their final judgment -- and YOU do NOT want to be standing in that  judgment.

Revelation 20:15 tells us, with no doubt, what happens to all of those people who stand before Christ in the Great White Throne Judgment, "And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."   It is a foregone conclusion that the names of all who appear at this judgment are NOT in the Book of Life.  That, my Friend, is the ticket to hell.

Don't let that happen to you.  If you do not know enough about the Bible and God to make a decision today; at least, be smart enough to find a Christ-centered, Bible-teaching church and get involved with them, in fellowship and in Bible study.  Learn from God's Written Word why it is so important for YOU to have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, today -- for no one is promised a tomorrow.

If I can help you find a church in your area; please contact me -- for hell is a reality, a reality I do not want you to experience.

To my sister in Christ, Ruth, and to all my Friends -- I realize that this writing is pretty long.  Yet, the issues discussed are critical.  Possibly eternal souls hang in the balance for some who are reading this right now.  And, I would not want to stand before my Lord one day and have Him tell me, "Bill, you chose brevity in your writing to make some more comfortable; yet, others did not make a  decision to follow Me -- for you did not fully explain what My Word teaches about heaven, hell, and salvation."

No, I would rather my Lord tell me, "Bill, you talked their ears off!   But, they got the message -- and that person over there, he/she believed."   That one person is worth any amount of work I might put into my writings -- and it is worth all the work YOU might put  into reading them. 

 

Especially if that person is you, or a loved one, or a close friend -- or even someone you do not like that much.   For in heaven -- we will ALL be loved ones!

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Original Post

Replies sorted oldest to newest

Originally Posted by WINDSONG:

Bill, this looks like an answer to some of YOUR Phillipino  (SIC) friends. Why dont (SIC) you put it on your DORYBILLMINISTERIES Blog and not here?

Hi Dwight/Skippy,

 

I did!   And, on Facebook!   And, I also shared it with all my Friends on my Friends Ministry eNewsletter mail list.

 

But, I just love sharing the true Word of God with ALL my Friends -- even with you.   So, just to be sure that no one is neglected -- I have shared it with my Shoals Family Friends on the TimesDaily Religion Forum. 

 

But, I do appreciate your concern for my Filipino.   Your concern is very touching.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Hi Dwight/Skippy,

 

Your concern touched me so much that I want to share an e-mail I received from a lady in Pennsylvania today about this same article which she received through my Friends Ministry:

 

+++++++++++++++++++++++

 

She wrote:

 

Wow, Bill! 

Wow!  Yes, a double Wow! 

I read every word.  I couldn't stop reading.  Very well done, my brother in Christ.  I learned about purgatory, for I had no clue what it was or where it came from.  The rest I knew... that which comes from the Bible.  As always, it brings me joy, it brings me peace.   I know that I am to try to be an example of  Christ's love and to share that love with others.  I also know that I am a flawed Christian, because I am human and can never be perfect.  But with the Holy Spirit in my heart and my relationship with the Lord, I will do my best to carry out my purpose here on earth and to share his love with others. 

So, I understand the nudge you received.  I definitely understand God Moments.  I also understand what it means to have God want my attention. 

Thank you for sharing this.  I always enjoy your writings.  They always touch me deeply. 

 

+++++++++++++++++++++++

 

So, you see, Dwight/Skippy, already God is giving me positive results.   Yes, sir, our Christian God is awesome!!!

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Originally Posted by gbrk:

Bill,   granted it's not in the context with the discussion but was just curious what you now thought of the forum format?  Looks as if your back to some familiarity and, if I recall, one of the largest gripes was not being able to keep up on new post or updated on replies.   Just curious.

Hi GB,

 

There are still many things about the new format that I do not like.  One is the putrid "military grey" background for the posts.  It makes reading very difficult.

 

Also, the fact that the names of the discussion originators do not show is aggravating.  It is a pain to have to hover over avatars just to see who began a discussion.  And, the avatars on the discussion list are much too big.

 

And, before, I could easily jump from the Forum section of the TD to other sections and back again quickly.  With this new format -- when I am in the Forum section -- there is no clean way to transition back into the front page, obits, etc., and then, back again.

 

When I click to open the Forum section -- I am still getting the red "We are installing new software" message -- and, then, have to wait for the new software to eventually transfer me to the Forums.

 

I still do not like the new format.  But, maybe it will help me in one way.  With the new format, I will be less likely to get into friendly "spitting contests" than before.  That will be good -- for it will give me more time to write new articles instead of responding to a lot of posts which are not productive.  

 

As you know,  we do have a handful of Friends who do not know how to post a civil response.  To a few, if it is not crude and lewd -- it is not worth posting.  To those, I can now bid a fond adieu -- and respond only to those who understand the meaning of civility.

 

Formatting my posts in easier with the new format.   Before, I had to do all html formatting in a composer and then copy/paste it into the forum.   Now, it is easier to just do the formatting while posting.

 

So, to give the new format a blessing today is premature.  There are a few advantages to the new format -- but, still a number of aggravating issues with it.  I suppose I would be fairly happy if they would add names to the discussion list and change this grungy background grey color.

 

One last thing I find aggravating.  When writing a post and I reach the bottom of the viewable writing area, most other writing software will automatically scroll down so that I can still see my writing.  On this new TD Forum format -- often I find my writings have disappeared at the bottom.  Then, I have to stop, grab my mouse, and scroll down to find the bottom of my writing.   Definitely a pain.

 

But, as I promised my dear Friend Dwight/Skippy -- as long as he is here -- God willing, I will be here to refute his cult religion writings.  Or, actually, instead of getting into a multi-colored "spitting contest" exchange with him -- since he will not answer questions anyway -- I will just have more time to post the truth about his cult  religion in new discussions.  And, then watch him spew misspelled curses and spells against me.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Last edited by Bill Gray

Hi BeternU/Bill,

just caught your replies. Let me promise your my friend, you had to eat some shoe

leather lately. I'm not sure which new version Bible you study, so bone up my dear OLD

FRIEND. Take notes when needed. Double check your scriptures and bogus net sites.

Your going to need to be accurate. Im real tired of your repetative crap. I no longer

am going to play your stupid games. You think your God. You even have your own

scripture. Tell me my good friend, where in the Bible do you find your scripture that

tells you there was NO RAIN OR SEAS only seepage from the earth, anywhere in the

Bible. You my friend are a false prophet. Preaching your own scriptue mingled with

BS. Your a big baby a big fool and your memory is gone. As you notice, unlike you,

I remember everything that you posted since I've been here. So have a good sleep

study your new age bible and I will be posting tomorrow. Sweet dreams.

 

your good buddy Skippy

Originally Posted by Bill Gray:


  When I was much younger and was not yet a Christian, but, still felt that inner urge which God instills in every human being to seek Him -- I wanted to find a church which would tell me there is no hell.   Why?  Because if there is no hell, then I could go to church on Sunday -- and live like hell the rest of the week.

I found a chaplain, from a major denominational church, at Bergstrom Air Force Base in Austin, Texas, who assured me that hell is only a myth.  Wow!  What a relief!  Party time!

This says a lot about you Mr. Gray. You have just admitted if it were not for the threat of hell (eternal torture) and the promise of rewards, you would be living a life style of partying and sin. Whats wrong with following Jesus simply because it is the right thing to do? Follow Jesus because you hate your sins and you sincerely want to change? I bet you wish you did not believe in hell, cause then you could continue in your carnal lifestyle. That pretty much sums up what you just admitted. What you do not realize is that you are still living a carnal, sinful lifestyle if your just doing it to avoid eternal torture and to receive rewards.

 

I hope your readers see you for what you really are. Someone who wishes they could sin the way they used to.

 

Luk 9:62  And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

 

FYI there are a small group of people who do not believe in eternal torture, but they are still trying to change despite this.

 

www.bible-truths.com

 

gdriggs

Wow that was quite terse.  Actually I did not, and don't, see justification for your take on Bill's post at all.  I think what Bill posted made perfect sense and in no way is a reflection on him or his Christianity.  I think you are jumping to conclusions that are not justified and here is why.

 

Note that Bill said "When I was much younger and was not yet  a Christian".  To me what that says is Bill did not have the Holy Spirit's direction at that time and was living in the flesh and naturally had his mind on fleshly things, as does anyone who knows not the Holy Spirit of God.  Hearing from, who he saw as, a representative of religion or God that there is no potential punishment for his actions would naturally be a positive thing for him, a reinforcement for wanting to live anyway he wished and which the flesh directed. 

 

Once saved and then indwelled with the Holy Spirit of God the fruits of the Spirit became alive within and the desires became desires to live for God as with the Fruits of the Spirit.  You though are making unjustified judgments that as a Christian he still wanted to live the same way and that it wasn't the Holy Spirit of God affecting his decisions but rather a fear of Hell.  I think that is unjustified and unfair.  As I typed earlier, Bill made those statements about a time in his life that he was living under the flesh and apart from God, apart from the Holy Spirit and being unsaved. 

 

I think you need to rethink your post and owe Bill an apology for making assumptions about his post conversion life based upon his feelings when he was unsaved.  Even as Christians we all continue to have desires and temptations but it isn't fear of punishment that controls our actions but it's the Love of God and the knowledge of the Holy Spirit, His guidance and ministry that controls our lives.

Originally Posted by skippy delepepper:

Hi BeternU/Bill,

just caught your replies. Let me promise your my friend, you had to eat some shoe

leather lately. I'm not sure which new version Bible you study, so bone up my dear OLD

FRIEND. Take notes when needed. Double check your scriptures and bogus net sites.

Your going to need to be accurate. Im real tired of your repetative crap. I no longer

am going to play your stupid games. You think your God. You even have your own

scripture. Tell me my good friend, where in the Bible do you find your scripture that

tells you there was NO RAIN OR SEAS only seepage from the earth, anywhere in the

Bible. You my friend are a false prophet. Preaching your own scriptue mingled with

BS. Your a big baby a big fool and your memory is gone. As you notice, unlike you,

I remember everything that you posted since I've been here. So have a good sleep

study your new age bible and I will be posting tomorrow. Sweet dreams.

 

your good buddy Skippy

I am not Bill but here is where it says it didn't rain.

Gen 2:5

And no plant of the field was yet in the earth, and no herb of the field had yet sprung up; for Jehovah God had not caused it to rain upon the earth: and there was not a man to till the ground;

 

Gen 2:6

 but there went up a mist from the Earth, and watered the whole face of the Ground.

 

I don't know anything about there not being any seas I know for sure there was Rivers, Genesis 2 :10 starts talking about 4 rivers, the first time that it says anything about rain is in Genesis 7th Chapter when it talks about the Flood,  This is from the American Standard Version.

Last edited by prince albert
Originally Posted by gbrk:

Wow that was quite terse.  Actually I did not, and don't, see justification for your take on Bill's post at all.  I think what Bill posted made perfect sense and in no way is a reflection on him or his Christianity.  I think you are jumping to conclusions that are not justified and here is why.

 

Note that Bill said "When I was much younger and was not yet  a Christian".  To me what that says is Bill did not have the Holy Spirit's direction at that time and was living in the flesh and naturally had his mind on fleshly things, as does anyone who knows not the Holy Spirit of God.  Hearing from, who he saw as, a representative of religion or God that there is no potential punishment for his actions would naturally be a positive thing for him, a reinforcement for wanting to live anyway he wished and which the flesh directed. 

 

Once saved and then indwelled with the Holy Spirit of God the fruits of the Spirit became alive within and the desires became desires to live for God as with the Fruits of the Spirit.  You though are making unjustified judgments that as a Christian he still wanted to live the same way and that it wasn't the Holy Spirit of God affecting his decisions but rather a fear of Hell.  I think that is unjustified and unfair.  As I typed earlier, Bill made those statements about a time in his life that he was living under the flesh and apart from God, apart from the Holy Spirit and being unsaved. 

 

I think you need to rethink your post and owe Bill an apology for making assumptions about his post conversion life based upon his feelings when he was unsaved.  Even as Christians we all continue to have desires and temptations but it isn't fear of punishment that controls our actions but it's the Love of God and the knowledge of the Holy Spirit, His guidance and ministry that controls our lives.

Hi GB,

 

You have to keep in mind that this is our old Friend, Al Williams, who when he tires of trying to sell his New Age Urantia Book religion on the Religion Forum -- will put on his GDRiggs "Robes of Universalism" designed by L. Ray Smith and try to sell everyone on his religion of Universalism, i.e., that EVERYONE, will eventually go to heaven.

 

Well, Al/GDriggs can just go on believing that as he slides down that slippery slope into the hell he so adamantly denies.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

I think Mr. Gray is more scared of eternal torture than ever before. Im willing to bet if Mr. Gray were to give an honest answer he would still say he does not want to go to hell (eternal torture). It is after all one of his major themes here, always trying to warn people they better get saved or it's hell for you! I have lost count of all the people he has condemned to hell here in this forum. And he just did it again in his last post.

 

Luk 6:45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.

 

Mat 15:18-20 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

 

gbrk, Mr. Gray's same ole same ole say's it all for me. It's nothing personal, but Im not afraid to call a spade a spade. Where have you Mr. Gray ever told someone to get saved because it is the right thing to do? No need to be scared, and why do you need to try and scare people? Haven't you heard?

 

1Jn 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

 

Jesus is in complete control, why cant we believe this?

 

Rev 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell (Hades-unseen state of the dead) and of death.

 

Where in Scripture are we told we are saved from eternal torture in a pagan "hell"? There are many REAL things to be saved from, like sin and death.

 

Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

 

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

 

We are saved from sin and death, not the pagan myth of eternal torture.

 

Jas 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

 

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal (Greek:age-abiding) life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

If anyone is interested in the origins of eternal torture, or endless punishment, check this out.

 

THE ORIGIN OF ENDLESS PUNISHMENT @ http://bible-truths.com/lake16-C.html

 

Short excerpt

 

ADAM AND EVE WERE NEVER WARNED BY GOD OF ENDLESS PUNISHMENT

 

"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat of it: for in the day that you eat thereof you shall SURELY DIE" (Gen. 2:17). The wages for eating the forbidden fruit was "you shall surely die." And: "In the sweat of your face shall you eat bread, till you return unto the ground [not be turned into a terrorists hellhole of endless torture in some pagan hell]: for out of it [the ground] were you taken; for dust you are, and unto dust shall you return" (Gen. 3:19). Death began immediately. Notice a better translation of Gen. 2:17: "…to die shall you BE DYING" (Concordant Old Testament). Their life was but a slow death until they returned to the dust of the ground. God said that their judgment for sinning was to be RETURNED to the ground from whence they came. They didn’t come from some terrorists hellhole of torture in fire, so how could they "return" to such a place when God plainly stated that they would "RETURN unto the ground?" They came from the earth and they returned to that earth.

-----------------------

 

gdriggs

Hi GDriggs, aka Al Williams,

 

My dear Friend, if you want to go through life wearing your New Age Shirley Maclaine hat -- and your L. Ray Smith "Universalism" undershorts -- -- and continue believing there is no hell -- go for it.   You can join all those folks who populate the "feel good" churches and New Age religions, and enjoy your slippery slope for as long as the ride lasts.

 

But, for our other Friends, I will say only this.  In the Bible Jesus Christ taught about hell.  Jesus Christ would not lie about this or any other thing -- but, especially about something as important as a person's eternal life.    Search the Scripture and you will find that Jesus Christ spoke of hell often.  Why would He do this -- if hell is only a myth?

 

And, the apostle John wrote, 1 John 5:12-13, "He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.  These things I have  written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life."

 

Having "eternal life" means that a person will spend eternity in the presence of God.  If one does not have "eternal life" in the presence of God -- what is left?   Only eternal life in hell.   There are no other choices; but, these two are very real.   But, the Good News is that -- EVERYONE -- gets to make his/her own personal choice whether to spend eternity with God or eternity in hell.

 

Al/GD, You are like the man who stands in the middle of the Interstate Highway firmly declaring, "What truck?" -- as the 18-wheeler semi comes barreling toward him.   But, because our God is so loving, He allows YOU to make that choice -- heaven (with Him) -- or hell (from under the wheels of that 18-wheeler).

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill


Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 – Jesus teaches us, “Come to terms with your opponent or you will be handed over to the judge and thrown into prison. You will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” The word “opponent” (antidiko) is likely a reference to the devil (see the same word for devil in 1 Pet. 5:8) who is an accuser against man (c.f. Job 1.6-12; Zech. 3.1; Rev. 12.10), and God is the judge. If we have not adequately dealt with satan and sin in this life, we will be held in a temporary state called a prison, and we won’t get out until we have satisfied our entire debt to God. This “prison” is purgatory where we will not get out until the last penny is paid.

Matt. 5:48 - Jesus says, "be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect." We are only made perfect through purification, and in Catholic teaching, this purification, if not completed on earth, is continued in a transitional state we call purgatory.

Matt. 12:32 – Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.” Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. The phrase “in the next” (from the Greek “en to mellonti&rdquo generally refers to the afterlife (see, for example, Mark 10.30; Luke 18.30; 20.34-35; Eph. 1.21 for similar language). Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.

Luke 12:47-48 - when the Master comes (at the end of time), some will receive light or heavy beatings but will live. This state is not heaven or hell, because in heaven there are no beatings, and in hell we will no longer live with the Master.

Luke 16:19-31 - in this story, we see that the dead rich man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and wants to warn them of his place of suffering. But there is no suffering in heaven or compassion in hell because compassion is a grace from God and those in hell are deprived from God's graces for all eternity. So where is the rich man? He is in purgatory.

1 Cor. 15:29-30 - Paul mentions people being baptized on behalf of the dead, in the context of atoning for their sins (people are baptized on the dead’s behalf so the dead can be raised). These people cannot be in heaven because they are still with sin, but they also cannot be in hell because their sins can no longer be atoned for. They are in purgatory. These verses directly correspond to 2 Macc. 12:44-45 which also shows specific prayers for the dead, so that they may be forgiven of their sin.

Phil. 2:10 - every knee bends to Jesus, in heaven, on earth, and "under the earth" which is the realm of the righteous dead, or purgatory.

2 Tim. 1:16-18 - Onesiphorus is dead but Paul asks for mercy on him “on that day.” Paul’s use of “that day” demonstrates its eschatological usage (see, for example, Rom. 2.5,16; 1 Cor. 1.8; 3.13; 5.5; 2 Cor. 1.14; Phil. 1.6,10; 2.16; 1 Thess. 5.2,4,5,8; 2 Thess. 2.2,3; 2 Tim. 4.8). Of course, there is no need for mercy in heaven, and there is no mercy given in hell. Where is Onesiphorus? He is in purgatory.

Heb. 12:14 - without holiness no one will see the Lord. We need final sanctification to attain true holiness before God, and this process occurs during our lives and, if not completed during our lives, in the transitional state of purgatory.

Heb. 12:23 - the spirits of just men who died in godliness are "made" perfect. They do not necessarily arrive perfect. They are made perfect after their death. But those in heaven are already perfect, and those in hell can no longer be made perfect. These spirits are in purgatory.

1 Peter 3:19; 4:6 - Jesus preached to the spirits in the "prison." These are the righteous souls being purified for the beatific vision.

Rev. 21:4 - God shall wipe away their tears, and there will be no mourning or pain, but only after the coming of the new heaven and the passing away of the current heaven and earth. Note the elimination of tears and pain only occurs at the end of time. But there is no morning or pain in heaven, and God will not wipe away their tears in hell. These are the souls experiencing purgatory.

Rev. 21:27 - nothing unclean shall enter heaven. The word “unclean” comes from the Greek word “koinon” which refers to a spiritual corruption. Even the propensity to sin is spiritually corrupt, or considered unclean, and must be purified before entering heaven. It is amazing how many Protestants do not want to believe in purgatory. Purgatory exists because of the mercy of God. If there were no purgatory, this would also likely mean no salvation for most people. God is merciful indeed.

Luke 23:43 – many Protestants argue that, because Jesus sent the good thief right to heaven, there can be no purgatory. There are several rebuttals. First, when Jesus uses the word "paradise,” He did not mean heaven. Paradise, from the Hebrew "sheol," meant the realm of the righteous dead. This was the place of the dead who were destined for heaven, but who were captive until the Lord's resurrection. Second, since there was no punctuation in the original manuscript, Jesus’ statement “I say to you today you will be with me in paradise” does not mean there was a comma after the first word “you.” This means Jesus could have said, “I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise” (meaning, Jesus could have emphasized with exclamation his statement was “today” or “now,” and that some time in the future the good thief would go to heaven). Third, even if the thief went straight to heaven, this does not prove there is no purgatory (those who are fully sanctified in this life – perhaps by a bloody and repentant death – could be ready for admission in to heaven).

Gen. 50:10; Num. 20:29; Deut. 34:8 - here are some examples of ritual prayer and penitent mourning for the dead for specific periods of time. The Jewish understanding of these practices was that the prayers freed the souls from their painful state of purification, and expedited their journey to God.

Baruch 3:4 - Baruch asks the Lord to hear the prayers of the dead of Israel. Prayers for the dead are unnecessary in heaven and unnecessary in hell. These dead are in purgatory.

Zech. 9:11 - God, through the blood of His covenant, will set those free from the waterless pit, a spiritual abode of suffering which the Church calls purgatory.

2 Macc. 12:43-45 - the prayers for the dead help free them from sin and help them to the reward of heaven. Those in heaven have no sin, and those in hell can no longer be freed from sin. They are in purgatory. Luther was particularly troubled with these verses because he rejected the age-old teaching of purgatory. As a result, he removed Maccabees from the canon of the Bible.

Originally Posted by House of David:

Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 – Jesus teaches us, “Come to terms with your opponent or you will be handed over to the judge and thrown into prison. You will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” The word “opponent” (antidiko) is likely a reference to the devil (see the same word for devil in 1 Pet. 5:8) who is an accuser against man (c.f. Job 1.6-12; Zech. 3.1; Rev. 12.10), and God is the judge. If we have not adequately dealt with satan and sin in this life, we will be held in a temporary state called a prison, and we won’t get out until we have satisfied our entire debt to God. This “prison” is purgatory where we will not get out until the last penny is paid.

Matt. 5:48 - Jesus says, "be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect." We are only made perfect through purification, and in Catholic teaching, this purification, if not completed on earth, is continued in a transitional state we call purgatory.

Matt. 12:32 – Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.” Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. The phrase “in the next” (from the Greek “en to mellonti&rdquo generally refers to the afterlife (see, for example, Mark 10.30; Luke 18.30; 20.34-35; Eph. 1.21 for similar language). Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.

Luke 12:47-48 - when the Master comes (at the end of time), some will receive light or heavy beatings but will live. This state is not heaven or hell, because in heaven there are no beatings, and in hell we will no longer live with the Master.

Luke 16:19-31 - in this story, we see that the dead rich man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and wants to warn them of his place of suffering. But there is no suffering in heaven or compassion in hell because compassion is a grace from God and those in hell are deprived from God's graces for all eternity. So where is the rich man? He is in purgatory.

1 Cor. 15:29-30 - Paul mentions people being baptized on behalf of the dead, in the context of atoning for their sins (people are baptized on the dead’s behalf so the dead can be raised). These people cannot be in heaven because they are still with sin, but they also cannot be in hell because their sins can no longer be atoned for. They are in purgatory. These verses directly correspond to 2 Macc. 12:44-45 which also shows specific prayers for the dead, so that they may be forgiven of their sin.

Phil. 2:10 - every knee bends to Jesus, in heaven, on earth, and "under the earth" which is the realm of the righteous dead, or purgatory.

2 Tim. 1:16-18 - Onesiphorus is dead but Paul asks for mercy on him “on that day.” Paul’s use of “that day” demonstrates its eschatological usage (see, for example, Rom. 2.5,16; 1 Cor. 1.8; 3.13; 5.5; 2 Cor. 1.14; Phil. 1.6,10; 2.16; 1 Thess. 5.2,4,5,8; 2 Thess. 2.2,3; 2 Tim. 4.8). Of course, there is no need for mercy in heaven, and there is no mercy given in hell. Where is Onesiphorus? He is in purgatory.

Heb. 12:14 - without holiness no one will see the Lord. We need final sanctification to attain true holiness before God, and this process occurs during our lives and, if not completed during our lives, in the transitional state of purgatory.

Heb. 12:23 - the spirits of just men who died in godliness are "made" perfect. They do not necessarily arrive perfect. They are made perfect after their death. But those in heaven are already perfect, and those in hell can no longer be made perfect. These spirits are in purgatory.

1 Peter 3:19; 4:6 - Jesus preached to the spirits in the "prison." These are the righteous souls being purified for the beatific vision.

Rev. 21:4 - God shall wipe away their tears, and there will be no mourning or pain, but only after the coming of the new heaven and the passing away of the current heaven and earth. Note the elimination of tears and pain only occurs at the end of time. But there is no morning or pain in heaven, and God will not wipe away their tears in hell. These are the souls experiencing purgatory.

Rev. 21:27 - nothing unclean shall enter heaven. The word “unclean” comes from the Greek word “koinon” which refers to a spiritual corruption. Even the propensity to sin is spiritually corrupt, or considered unclean, and must be purified before entering heaven. It is amazing how many Protestants do not want to believe in purgatory. Purgatory exists because of the mercy of God. If there were no purgatory, this would also likely mean no salvation for most people. God is merciful indeed.

Luke 23:43 – many Protestants argue that, because Jesus sent the good thief right to heaven, there can be no purgatory. There are several rebuttals. First, when Jesus uses the word "paradise,” He did not mean heaven. Paradise, from the Hebrew "sheol," meant the realm of the righteous dead. This was the place of the dead who were destined for heaven, but who were captive until the Lord's resurrection. Second, since there was no punctuation in the original manuscript, Jesus’ statement “I say to you today you will be with me in paradise” does not mean there was a comma after the first word “you.” This means Jesus could have said, “I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise” (meaning, Jesus could have emphasized with exclamation his statement was “today” or “now,” and that some time in the future the good thief would go to heaven). Third, even if the thief went straight to heaven, this does not prove there is no purgatory (those who are fully sanctified in this life – perhaps by a bloody and repentant death – could be ready for admission in to heaven).

Gen. 50:10; Num. 20:29; Deut. 34:8 - here are some examples of ritual prayer and penitent mourning for the dead for specific periods of time. The Jewish understanding of these practices was that the prayers freed the souls from their painful state of purification, and expedited their journey to God.

Baruch 3:4 - Baruch asks the Lord to hear the prayers of the dead of Israel. Prayers for the dead are unnecessary in heaven and unnecessary in hell. These dead are in purgatory.

Zech. 9:11 - God, through the blood of His covenant, will set those free from the waterless pit, a spiritual abode of suffering which the Church calls purgatory.

2 Macc. 12:43-45 - the prayers for the dead help free them from sin and help them to the reward of heaven. Those in heaven have no sin, and those in hell can no longer be freed from sin. They are in purgatory. Luther was particularly troubled with these verses because he rejected the age-old teaching of purgatory. As a result, he removed Maccabees from the canon of the Bible.

Hi David,

 

All you have done is go to your Roman Catholic Resources  web site and copy/paste a long string of things from there.  NOT ONE single word of that long post is yours or from your thoughts.  I will not spend hours wading through all your copy/paste to answer what I know is wrong -- and which you are too lazy to explain in your own words.

 

So, if you have some Scripture verses which you can explain, knowledge which comes from you and not from some Vatican web page -- that tells me what I wrote in my original post is wrong; please share that with us and I will be very happy to dialogue with you on those Scriptural issues.   Otherwise, have a nice day,

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Originally Posted by O No!:

HoD, don't waste your time on Bill. He copies and pastes from his twisted Chuck what's-his-name and other so-called Bible scholars all the time. He isn't worth the effort it takes to make one keystroke. The REST of us (I, at least) appreciate what you posted.

Hi O,

 

Yes, I do copy/paste -- but, NOT without some explanation from me about what it means.  All she did was go to a web site and copy/paste a long diatribe that even she does not understand enough to explain.

 

You say YOU appreciate what she, David, posted.  Can YOU explain each of those verses or passages?  Do you even have any idea what she posted and what it said?   If you, or she, will explain each of those verses/passages -- individually -- I will be happy to comment on them. 

 

But, when all she could do was spend ten seconds to copy/paste a lot of Vatican rhetoric -- why should I spend the hours needed to respond?  I gave David exactly what she gave me -- ten seconds of comment.

 

But, if you or she wants to invest more time in this discussion -- I will be happy to match that time.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Obviously Bill, your reading comprehension skills are weak. What HoD posted needs no explanation. If you were a decent human being you would have read it, but you are more interested in looking like "the big man" than in actually discussing anything.

 

Question: Why is it that you put so much stock in what your heroes, such as Chuck, say, but reject what others say? Chuck's interpretation of the Bible is no more valid than anyone else's.

 

As I have said before, I think you put your POLITICAL agenda first, and try to use religion to get people to vote the way you want them to. You aren't winning anyone over to your political point of view, nor your way of looking at the Bible. Most people on this forum realize that you are NOT who you pretend to be. We can see right through you.

 

You will probably come back with some kind of insult for me now, or accuse me of not being a Christian. That is your usual way of handling people who disagree with you. I don't really care. I know that I put my Lord first, above all things. And the opinion of an egotistical, politically driven, insulting person such as you does not matter to me, except that I know it makes my Lord sad to see someone like you using His name in vain.

 

I will continue to pray for you.

Hi O No,

You tell me, "Obviously Bill, your reading comprehension skills are weak.  What HoD posted needs no explanation.  If you were a decent human being you would have read it, but you are more interested in looking like 'the big man' than in actually discussing anything."

Anytime we copy/paste from another source, an explanation is needed.  What did David prove when she merely copied pages from a Roman Catholic web site -- with not one single word written by her.  To me, that is laziness.  If one cares enough to post; at least put a smidgen of effort into the post.

Then, you ask, "Question: Why is it that you put so much stock in what your heroes, such as Chuck, say, but reject what others say?  Chuck's interpretation of the Bible is no more valid than anyone else's."

Yes, I will post information from other sources, such as Pastor Chuck Smith and many other Bible teachers, theologians, and scholars.  A person who will throw out the accumulated knowledge of those who have gone before without considering what they have written -- will forever be digging new wells -- and often coming up with only mud.

If you will notice, I never quote another source WITHOUT my own input and thoughts on the subject.   In other words, I will use the writings, understanding, and knowledge of others to support what I have written.   David did not do this.  She only copy/pasted from the web site with nothing from her.

Next, you accuse, "As I have said before, I think you put your POLITICAL agenda first, and try to use religion to get people to vote the way you want them to.  You aren't winning anyone over to your political point of view, nor your way of looking at the Bible.  Most people on this forum realize that you are NOT who you pretend to be.  We can see right through you."

Well, my Friend, I am not sure how POLITICS got into this discussion of Purgatory and Hell.  But, I will admit that most politicians likely will discover the truth of what was written about hell, sooner or later.

That is interesting, you say, ". . .you are NOT who you pretend to be."   The last I checked, I am just plain old Bill Gray -- a person who is grateful to God for the salvation Jesus Christ purchased and offered to me on the cross of Calvary.  As I have mentioned in many previous posts, before I became a Christian believer -- I wandered in the world exploring most of the things all non-believers find so compelling.  That includes being in and out of many churches, including David's Roman Catholic church.  

And, that includes your New Age religions with all the bells and whistles -- including psychics, aura reading, psychic dreaming, etc. -- you name it.  I even spent money on old Shirley Maclaine's books and even read them.  Yes, before Jesus Christ became Master of my life -- I wallowed in all the world's pig sties.  But, praise the Lord -- today I am just plain old Bill Gray -- born again Christian believer!!

And, you tell me, "You will probably come back with some kind of insult for me now, or accuse me of not being a Christian.  That is your usual way of handling people who disagree with you.  I don't really care."

No, I have no reason to insult you.  I have no reason to dislike you.  And, I cannot say if you are a Christian or not; only you and God know for sure.  I can only look at the fruit of salvation you present to me and to the other Religion Forum readers.

You profess, "I know that I put my Lord first, above all things."

That is good.  I commend you for that.

Then, you again accuse, "And the opinion of an egotistical, politically driven, insulting person such as you does not matter to me, except that I know it makes my Lord sad to see someone like you using His name in vain."

Thank you for your flattering assessment of my Christian life.  But, please -- show me where I have taken God's name in vain.

Finally, you tell me, "I will continue to pray for you."

Thank you.  I most certainly do need your prayers and the prayers of many others.   But, let me ask you a serious question -- and, I  am NOT being facetious.   Have you honestly been praying for me?   If so, I thank you.  If not, will you please?

I am reminded of a cartoon I have which shows one man approaching another.  When George sees Jack coming, he panics -- and  quickly says a short prayer, "Lord, please bless Jack!"

As George reaches Jack, he smiles, shakes his hand, and tells him, "Jack, I have been praying for you!"

But, as I said and will repeat -- I need all the prayers I can get.  All are appreciated by me -- and I am sure our Lord enjoys hearing from us at all times.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill 

Bill, yes, I pray for ALL members of this forum, every day. I pray for their health and safety, and I pray that He will give them (myself included here) a better understanding of His will.

 

I say that you use His name in vain because you DO use religion to promote your political agenda. You posted last week in the politics forum about Obama not acknowledging Easter, even though I showed you links about his Easter Prayer Breakfast from the news, and from Youtube. You refuse to admit you were misinformed by that group from whom you got your original assertion.

 

In MY opinion, when someone tells an untruth in the name of God, that is taking His name in vain. Those people told YOU an untruth, and you spread that untruth to this forum. Not admitting that your original assertion was wrong is perpetuating this untruth, and THAT, my friend, is wrong.

quote:
Originally Posted by O No!:

Bill, yes, I pray for ALL members of this forum, every day. I pray for their health and safety, and I pray that He will give them (myself included here) a better understanding of His will.

 

I say that you use His name in vain because you DO use religion to promote your political agenda. You posted last week in the politics forum about Obama not acknowledging Easter, even though I showed you links about his Easter Prayer Breakfast from the news, and from Youtube. You refuse to admit you were misinformed by that group from whom you got your original assertion.

 

In MY opinion, when someone tells an untruth in the name of God, that is taking His name in vain. Those people told YOU an untruth, and you spread that untruth to this forum. Not admitting that your original assertion was wrong is perpetuating this untruth, and THAT, my friend, is wrong.

Hi O,

 

Thank you for your prayers.  As I said, I do desperately need them.

 

You say I defame God's name by mixing my Christian beliefs with my political views.  I do not separate the two -- for my Christian faith most certainly affects my world/political view.  And, I pray that come 2012, we will have a person in the White House who shares my Christian world/political view.   You say that I take God's name in vain by keeping Him in my world/political view; I say that I honor Him by keeping Him in all my life.

 

My point in the Obama vs Easter post was that, in the last two years, Obama has gone on television praising and glorifying all the Muslim religious holidays.  Yet, he refused to honor our National Day of Prayer -- and He most certainly did not go on television honoring our most holy day, Resurrection Day (more commonly called Easter).  Yes, he may have quickly slipped in and out of a prayer breakfast.  Yes, he may have let the children have an Easter Egg Role or hunt on the White House lawn.  But, no -- he did not go on television, as he has always done with Muslim holidays (his holidays?) -- and honor Easter.  That was and is my point.

 

PALIN IN 2012!!!  --- YEA, GOD!!!

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Last edited by Bill Gray
Originally Posted by prince albert:
Originally Posted by skippy delepepper:

Hi BeternU/Bill,

just caught your replies. Let me promise your my friend, you had to eat some shoe

leather lately. I'm not sure which new version Bible you study, so bone up my dear OLD

FRIEND. Take notes when needed. Double check your scriptures and bogus net sites.

Your going to need to be accurate. Im real tired of your repetative crap. I no longer

am going to play your stupid games. You think your God. You even have your own

scripture. Tell me my good friend, where in the Bible do you find your scripture that

tells you there was NO RAIN OR SEAS only seepage from the earth, anywhere in the

Bible. You my friend are a false prophet. Preaching your own scriptue mingled with

BS. Your a big baby a big fool and your memory is gone. As you notice, unlike you,

I remember everything that you posted since I've been here. So have a good sleep

study your new age bible and I will be posting tomorrow. Sweet dreams.

 

your good buddy Skippy

I am not Bill but here is where it says it didn't rain.

Gen 2:5

And no plant of the field was yet in the earth, and no herb of the field had yet sprung up; for Jehovah God had not caused it to rain upon the earth: and there was not a man to till the ground;

 

Gen 2:6

 but there went up a mist from the Earth, and watered the whole face of the Ground.

 

I don't know anything about there not being any seas I know for sure there was Rivers, Genesis 2 :10 starts talking about 4 rivers, the first time that it says anything about rain is in Genesis 7th Chapter when it talks about the Flood,  This is from the American Standard Version.

And therein lies a valuable lesson for you, Skippy. You jumped on Bill about there being no rain and prince albert sent you right to Genesis 2:4, which showed that this was indeed the case--in the Bible!

 

You have been relying too much on the bogus Mormon scriptures when you should have been dwelling in the Word of God.

Bill, any good writer knows that when you are making an argument, you start with your premise. You ARE a good writer, and this is how you opened your thread:

 

"OBAMA IGNORES GOOD FRIDAY AND EASTER - But never forgets Muslim Holidays.   Let's all REMEMBER to NOT VOTE for  him in 2012!"

 

To claim that wasn't your point now is disingenuous. The Easter Prayer Breakfast was reported on by all the major news media. His remarks were broadcast on telivision, on radio, and in the newspapers. Trying to wiggle your way out of admitting you were wrong by using nit-picking semantics not only makes you look dishonest, but it makes you seem a poor writer. If you wrote so unclearly that no one got your intended point, then you wrote poorly - and we both know you are a better writer than that. So there is only one other conclusion apparent. You clearly tried to mislead people for the sake of your political agenda.

Originally Posted by O No!:

Bill, any good writer knows that when you are making an argument, you start with your premise. You ARE a good writer, and this is how you opened your thread:

 

"OBAMA IGNORES GOOD FRIDAY AND EASTER - But never forgets Muslim Holidays.   Let's all REMEMBER to NOT VOTE for  him in 2012!"

Hi O,

 

No, I began this discussion with:  Purgatory And Hell - Biblical Or Not?

 

Now, Purgatory and Hell may well be applicable to Obama -- but, other than that -- he was not mentioned in my post at all.   Do you really want to debate where Obama is headed?  I don't.  Whether his faith is in Mohammed, Rev. Wright, or Jesus Christ -- I cannot say.   But, if he is a Christian -- he is a very, very LIBERAL Christian, at best. 

 

Did you notice who he had leading the prayer at his Easter Prayer Breakfast?  There were a number of pastors in the audience.  Yet, he has a "woman" pastor (bishop?) leading the prayer.  Is that his way of saying,  "Up your nose, all you Conservative Bible-believing Christian!"?  That would be my guess.

 

Now, before you jump on your horse and start leading the parade declaring, "Bill hates women!!"  -- no, I love women.  I love and respect women.   I love and respect women in my personal life -- and in my Christian life.  Many of the strongest teachers and leaders in our churches are women; many of the movers and shakers in our churches are women.  Of the people I most highly respect -- women are at the top of the list.

 

But, I do follow the Biblical teaching that while women may and should be active in all aspects of church life -- they should NOT be the spiritual leader, i.e., the pastor, of a church.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Prince Albert and Upsidehead,

I'm taking it you and Bill are on the same page. In doing so are you claiming

there was no pre-historic life on this planet before man? If yes, there's nothing

more I can say to you. I've even had a late 1800's high church official who in

his own oppinion stated there were never Dinosours that walked on this earth.

He believed that the fossil evidence was an accumulation of things from other

planets when the earth was formed. Just because he believed it didn't make it

true. If your answer is no, how did the pre-historic life get it's water and how

did the lakes and streams get replenished with water if there was no rain. How

do you explain where the evaporation from the seas went? Now back to the

Bible. You quote Genisis 2:5 and 6. This tells us there was no rain, no argument.

But man was not there to till the ground.(End of 2:5). Then a great mist from the

earth watered the whole face of the ground. The mist was evaporation. What

happens with evaporation? What didn't stay on the earth must have risen in

to the atmosphere. What happens to evaporation when it acumulates in the

atmosphere and cools? That's right, it condenses. What happens when it con-

denses? Gravity pulls it back to the earth as rain/ snow/ sleet or hail. Deppending

on the temperatures.  Remember man was not here yet. Man comes in this

chapter(chapter 2) in Genisis 2:7-- And the Lord formed man of the dust of the

ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a

living soul.  Myself, because none of us know the true length of time that is in

between Genisis 2:6 and Genisis 2:7, I would have to say it was mabey even

millions of years. The fossil evidence says it has to be. And even if it was the

next day after Genesis 2:6(24 hrs) (which it wasn't) that man was formed. It

doesn't say anything about not raining before Noah. (Setting apart the large

bodies of waters that now Bill denies). No rain before Noah dosen't either

naturally or scripturally stand up as a theory. So I guess this one goes UPSIDE-

HEAD.

No Rain or Seas dosen't stand up to the proof.

 

Skippy

Teacher and leaders, but not "spiritual leaders", huh? What are they then, home cooking leaders?

 

Your post on the POLITICS section is what we have been talking about in these past few (including this one) posts. You can't deny that you opened THAT thread with "Obama ignores Good Friday and Easter" (in bold type, too!) so you are wiggling here when you pretend not to know which thread I was referring to.

 

In that thread, you also quoted your source as saying: "More glaringly, President Obama made no mention of Good Friday or Easter in his weekly address to the nation on Saturday". Here is a link to the full video of that weekly address. It opened and closed with "mention" of Easter. So if you don't want to admit you were wrong, you must admit that your SOURCE was wrong.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dd_fSV_dxgk

Hi O No,

 

My Friend, how about we stay on one discussion at a time.  This discussion is about "Purgatory And Hell -- Biblical Or Not?"  

 

If you want to discuss the Easter and Obama discussion -- why don't you trot back over there -- and when I finish with other matters, maybe I will join you.

 

But, please do not hijack this discussion to talk about another discussion.  We have enough confusion without mixing apples and oranges.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

That's what I thought. You have been PROVEN wrong again, so you refuse to discuss it. That's just fine with me. Everyone here sees that you were wrong and that you are wiggling, no, make that wriggling, to get out of admitting it.

 

The reason I brought it up here was simply because you chose to ignore it over there. As usual. But it is not really off topic in this thread. Your smear of HoD's post brought it about. SHE was right too!

quote:
Originally Posted by skippy delepepper:
If your answer is no, how did the pre-historic life get it's water and how did the lakes and streams get replenished with water if there was no rain. How do you explain where the evaporation from the seas went? Now back to the Bible. You quote Genisis (SIC) 2:5 and 6. This tells us there was no rain, no argument.  But man was not there to till the ground.(End of 2:5). Then a great mist from the earth watered the whole face of the ground. The mist was evaporation. What happens with evaporation?  Skippy

Hi Skippy,

First, if we are going to get off on a new footing; let me ask a favor of you that I am sure ALL of our Forum Friend will also appreciate.  Please, no more ALL BOLD text.  We do not need a full post in all screaming text to understand your point.

Next, yes, the earth was surrounded by a layer of mist which shielded the earth from the sun's UV rays and provided an even, tropical environment where all plant life, animal life, and even our early ancestors could live comfortably and thrive.  The mist provided both a protective shield and moisture for the plants, animals, and human life on earth.

Is this possible?  Why not?  God created the heavens and the earth; God created man in His image and He created the perfect Garden of Eden for man's home.  Why could He not create this ideal climate for his creation?

Then, when man became so corrupt that God was sick of them all -- He decided to have a "do over" and brought the flood.  To bring about the flood quickly, He called upon all the resources that He, in His omniscience knew would be needed -- the waters above the earth, i.e., in the clouds; the waters below the earth, i.e., His hidden reservoirs of water beneath the earth's surface.  And, with the  waters He had provided on the earth (Genesis 1:9-10) for his "swarms of living creatures, including great sea monsters" (Genesis  1:20-21) -- He brought about His flood which covered the whole world to above the peaks of the mountains.

Was there rain before the flood?  If there was, don't you think it would have been mentioned -- at least once?  In all the Bible, RAIN is mentioned 102 times.  This is from the King James Version Bible; just to keep me on the same page as our Mormon Friends.

Genesis 2:5, "And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and [there was] not a man to till the ground."

Up to this point -- no rain on earth.  Jump ahead to the time of Noah's flood and we find:

Genesis 7:4, "For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain (first rain!) upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living  substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth."

Genesis 7:12, "And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights."

And, what sources of water did God use to cause His flood?

Genesis 8:2-3, "The fountains also of the deep and the windows of heaven were stopped, and the rain from heaven was restrained;  and the waters returned from off the earth continually: and after the end of the hundred and fifty days the waters were abated."

Yes, Skippy, I believe we can safely say that the Bible teaches that, before the flood, there was no rain on earth.  Seas?  Yes.   Rain?  No.  I pray that I have cleared up any misunderstanding you may have conjured up in your head.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Hey Bill, you're off topic with this last post to Skippy. That was a different thread, remember?

 

But getting back to MY last post to you on this thread, When someone has misinformed ME, I am always grateful to whoever points that out and sets me straight. So if you'd like to thank me, I will say, "You're welcome".

Matt. 12:32 – Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.” Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. The phrase “in the next” (from the Greek “en to mellonti&rdquo generally refers to the afterlife (see, for example, Mark 10.30; Luke 18.30; 20.34-35; Eph. 1.21 for similar language). Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.

quote:
Originally Posted by House of David:

Matt. 12:32 – Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.” Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. The phrase “in the next” (from the Greek “en to mellonti&rdquo generally refers to the afterlife (see, for example, Mark 10.30; Luke 18.30; 20.34-35; Eph. 1.21 for similar language). Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.

Hi David,

 

Just curious.  Which part of this did YOU write?

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

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