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who do not want an education into trade school, allow them to work for a GED, while they learn a trade....Limit the classroom to a manageable size [20 or less]...who should go to trade school? The kids who raise hell all day and deprive the academically inclined an education...every guidance counselor and principal knows who they are...and last of all...get rid of special education within the regular classroom, putting kids with 74 IQ in with 110 IQ [every child schould read on grade level by age 14]is stupid, absurd written by lawyers for politicians....God Help Us All. Nobody listens to those who really know what's wrong with education....Now everybody turn loose on me...
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To Homesick..I understand...there are no good answers..I am not saying these children are not intelligent, quite the contrary...most of the more difficult children I've ever been associated with were above average intelligence. That is one of the reasons they are so difficult to deal with..but there has to be a way to separate those who do not care for school, from the ones who want to achieve academically. One difficult student can cause chaos in an over-crowded classroom. At this point, a trade school with a GED, is a viable alternative. A hands-on learning situation might even change behavior...I have seen this happen.
Last edited by barbaros45
I would not say that trade school is a place for kids that raise heck all day. Troublemakers at a trade school get in the way of teaching kids that really want to learn a skill just as they do in the regular classroom. I would say that there are several good kids that are definitely not college material that should be in trade school learning a skill instead of being pushed to something that is beyond their level. As for the troublemakers, as harsh as it may sound they should get three strikes. 1st strike to ISS, 2nd strike alternative school, 3rd strike expelled. This of course will never happen as there are too many bleeding hearts out there more concerned with “fixing” the troublemaker than helping good kids get an education.
And of course the expelled kids should be required to either home school or enter a GED program.
my point exactly BFred....all hands are tied because troublemaker's moms have found lawyers and "advocates" to keep their kids in school regardless of the trouble they cause...It is so difficult to watch our schools die because we will not address the reason they are broken. Public schools will remain open...the students, whose parents can afford it, will be in private schools....take a minute or two and count how many have popped up in Huntsville recently. By the way, count how many private schools have athletic programs in the final four competion in Birmingham next week.
I absolutely agree with you barbaros45, something needs to be done about troublemakers in the school system! Maybe if the parents were held responsible for their kids behavior we would see a change. They have done this in Fl. schools with both attendance and behavior and it has made a difference. Parents of even high school kids should discipline their children if they start trouble at school. Too many parents either don't care or worse they condone the kids actions.

I pulled my daughter out of high school because of problems with other kids,she got her G.E.D and is now in college.She is 16 and wants to be a teacher,see my daughter wants to succeed.
Illini, the men/women in the armed forces that are there for the right reasons don't want them either...lol...they have to pay for their screw-ups. Wink I do agree with you that it might help some of them though.

The troublemakers need somebody to give a crap, but our school personnel have too many students to be these kids' moms, dads, counselor, friend, etc. I hate it that they are falling through the cracks. Practically speaking, their futures will indeed play a part in our own futures. I care about them just because I just do, but we should all care because if they end up as criminals, you could be the victim. If they end up living off the government, your tax dollars fund that.
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Originally posted by Fighting Illini:
If you are a troublemaker or a lazy dropout, you should be rounded up and put into basic training in the armed forces where you can get discipline and a a good butt whooping.

That would be a great thing, get kicked out or drop your next stop is the Army (where they will also make you get your GED). I am definitely a fan of compulsory military service for people who do not finish college. This would not only be a good thing for our armed forces but a lot more kids would study harder and get a college degree.
I had to wait a while so that I could calm down before responding to this. First, for the last two decades or so, the term "Trade School" is verboten. They are properly referred to as Career Technical classes. Join us, please, in the 21st century.

I can only speak for the school at which I'm employed, but our career technical classes are mostly filled with some of the better students in the school. Our Auto Technology teacher's best student last year was the daughter of a local lawyer, a National Merit semi-finalist, and loved to crawl around under a car and to use up-to-date computer diagnostic equipment. She and another student found a problem with my power windows that my Ford dealer could not find in four hours. Some of our better teachers are career technical teachers. No, by the way, I'm not one of them.

Stop painting with such a broad brush. Trouble with students begins at home!
Perhaps everyone including the spoiled white collar brats should not go to college first but to compulsory military training to learn discipline, etc. It works fine in Israel where many believe that it helps develop self discipline.ingenuity, and inventiveness. C-Span 2 had an excellent discussion of this last week. The assumption that only blue collar kids get in trouble infuriates me. Maybe their parents just do not have the influence or money to buy them out!
quote:
Originally posted by BFred07:
I would not say that trade school is a place for kids that raise heck all day. Troublemakers at a trade school get in the way of teaching kids that really want to learn a skill just as they do in the regular classroom. I would say that there are several good kids that are definitely not college material that should be in trade school learning a skill instead of being pushed to something that is beyond their level. As for the troublemakers, as harsh as it may sound they should get three strikes. 1st strike to ISS, 2nd strike alternative school, 3rd strike expelled. This of course will never happen as there are too many bleeding hearts out there more concerned with “fixing” the troublemaker than helping good kids get an education.
And of course the expelled kids should be required to either home school or enter a GED program.


Oh this is good, Fred. "Fixing" the troublemaker is such a bad long-term strategy. It's much better to focus on the short-term order in the classroom ONLY. Forget the fact that the child is almost certainly acting out due to a choatic home life, or because he's tired/hungry due to lack of proper sleep and nutrition. But let's just abandon the "troublemaker's" needs entirely and focus completely on the needs of the "good kids". After all, if the "troublemaker" isn't given any help (or compassion), he'll probably just end up on meth or in jail - nothing the taxpayers have to worry about. Yes, thinking in the short term is definitely the solution.

Now see what you made me do, Fred? You made me bring out Ms. Satire again. Big Grin
quote:
Originally posted by BFred07:
quote:
Originally posted by Fighting Illini:
If you are a troublemaker or a lazy dropout, you should be rounded up and put into basic training in the armed forces where you can get discipline and a a good butt whooping.

That would be a great thing, get kicked out or drop your next stop is the Army (where they will also make you get your GED). I am definitely a fan of compulsory military service for people who do not finish college. This would not only be a good thing for our armed forces but a lot more kids would study harder and get a college degree.


What? Do the two of you live in North Korea or somewhere? I believe the draft was discontinued in the early 1970's. I think this is funny coming from two posters who can usually be counted on to cry the loudest when someone brings up the government forcing anything on its citizens.

I'll say this: If mandatory conscription does again become a reality in this country, Canada better look out for an influx of new dwellers.
quote:
Originally posted by BFred07:
This of course will never happen as there are too many bleeding hearts out there more concerned with “fixing” the troublemaker than helping good kids get an education


What a horrible notion.

The fact of the matter is that it costs (in Alabama) about 5,000 a year to educate a "troublemaker." It's costs 50,000 a year to incarcerate them.

These kinds of ignorant ideas have no place in these enlightened times.
quote:
Originally posted by falcon1234:
I had to wait a while so that I could calm down before responding to this. First, for the last two decades or so, the term "Trade School" is verboten. They are properly referred to as Career Technical classes. Join us, please, in the 21st century.

I can only speak for the school at which I'm employed, but our career technical classes are mostly filled with some of the better students in the school. Our Auto Technology teacher's best student last year was the daughter of a local lawyer, a National Merit semi-finalist, and loved to crawl around under a car and to use up-to-date computer diagnostic equipment. She and another student found a problem with my power windows that my Ford dealer could not find in four hours. Some of our better teachers are career technical teachers. No, by the way, I'm not one of them.

Stop painting with such a broad brush. Trouble with students begins at home!


So I guess the term "Beauty School Dropout" is no longer appropriate? LOL.

Seriously, though, when I think "trade school" (I didn't get the memo on the new terminology), I'm thinking along the lines of DeVry, cosmetology schools, auto mechanic schools, truck driver schools, etc. I didn't even consider the classes taught as part of high school, what in my day were called "vocational classes." At any rate, I don't think any of those places, whatever we call them, are for troublemakers. They are for people who can't or won't go to college but still want marketable skills in life. Or those who want to go into a field that depends more on hands-on training than broad-based academic classes. Just my opinion of course.
quote:

I think this is funny coming from two posters who can usually be counted on to cry the loudest when someone brings up the government forcing anything on its citizens.


I thought I could count on you to come back with something witty and sarcastic?
I used to send my kids to a private school (Mars Hill) that is till I had so many kids that were school age it did not seem to make sense for me to spend that much money on the kids school, so off to public school they went where they were basically just in review the first couple of years.
When I first gave thought to private school before my oldest went to Kindergarten I went and talked with principal at Mars Hill and one of the questions I asked was “what is it that makes your school a better choice than public school?” I cannot recall verbatim what she said but one of the big points she made was that if a child was disruptive that unlike public school they could just kick the disruptive kid out leaving the teachers more time to actually teach the other kids and keep parents in the know of all that is going on.
My point is that there are only so many chances that you can give a troublemaker and only so much you can do to help without getting in the way of teaching the kids that want to learn. Alternative school is a great place to help kids that have been in trouble as long is the school is run by competent and caring staff and if a mix of alternative school and parental involvement cannot turn a kid around, I cannot see the school system wasting any further resources more than keeping the kid in alternative school as long as he/she behaves there.
As for compulsory military service, dropouts and those who do not plan on furthering their education after high school would do well to be in the military. I do not think the draft should have ever been done away with. The military has a way of dishing out a good dose of reality to kids and teaching them to be more responsible while at the same time strengthening our national defense. At the same time this offers a little more immediate incentive for persons to finish high school and go on to college or technical school. So anyway, out of this our country ends up with an even stronger military and a more responsible and better educated general population. The more people we have that act responsibly and are well educated the lower things like our crime and unemployment rates will be. I realize I’m in the minority on this one and not many would agree on these points but I believe these would be very good things to do.
quote:
Originally posted by BFred07:
quote:

I think this is funny coming from two posters who can usually be counted on to cry the loudest when someone brings up the government forcing anything on its citizens.


I thought I could count on you to come back with something witty and sarcastic?
I used to send my kids to a private school (Mars Hill) that is till I had so many kids that were school age it did not seem to make sense for me to spend that much money on the kids school, so off to public school they went where they were basically just in review the first couple of years.
When I first gave thought to private school before my oldest went to Kindergarten I went and talked with principal at Mars Hill and one of the questions I asked was “what is it that makes your school a better choice than public school?” I cannot recall verbatim what she said but one of the big points she made was that if a child was disruptive that unlike public school they could just kick the disruptive kid out leaving the teachers more time to actually teach the other kids and keep parents in the know of all that is going on.
My point is that there are only so many chances that you can give a troublemaker and only so much you can do to help without getting in the way of teaching the kids that want to learn. Alternative school is a great place to help kids that have been in trouble as long is the school is run by competent and caring staff and if a mix of alternative school and parental involvement cannot turn a kid around, I cannot see the school system wasting any further resources more than keeping the kid in alternative school as long as he/she behaves there.
As for compulsory military service, dropouts and those who do not plan on furthering their education after high school would do well to be in the military. I do not think the draft should have ever been done away with. The military has a way of dishing out a good dose of reality to kids and teaching them to be more responsible while at the same time strengthening our national defense. At the same time this offers a little more immediate incentive for persons to finish high school and go on to college or technical school. So anyway, out of this our country ends up with an even stronger military and a more responsible and better educated general population. The more people we have that act responsibly and are well educated the lower things like our crime and unemployment rates will be. I realize I’m in the minority on this one and not many would agree on these points but I believe these would be very good things to do.


Yes, as long as the school is run by competent and caring staff. And I'm sure the mom of the little girl - the subject of many of these threads - thought her daughter was in a good school, one that was going to follow a clear directive not to paddle. Of course, that didn't happen.

Your quote:

quote:

As for compulsory military service, dropouts and those who do not plan on furthering their education after high school would do well to be in the military. I do not think the draft should have ever been done away with. The military has a way of dishing out a good dose of reality to kids and teaching them to be more responsible while at the same time strengthening our national defense. At the same time this offers a little more immediate incentive for persons to finish high school and go on to college or technical school.


If you believe the draft should have never been done away with then it's pointless to debate you on that, but I'll give it a shot. You're assuming that imposing military service on lost youth is the best option for them all - a blanket approach don't you think? Maybe so-called "troublemakers" share many of the same qualities, but they are all individuals and are driven by different motivations.

Can you honestly say that every kid who was forced to go to Vietnam came back all the better for it? It's clearly not for everyone, especially when forced. And even since the military has been voluntary, we hear all the time about the lasting mental and physical issues the veterans from the Gulf War and the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan have experienced.

I respect all of our veterans and would enlist myself if we were attacked inside our borders, but I wouldn't force military service on anyone, troublemaker or not.
my point....32 students in one classroom, with one teacher is nonproductive...classes must be smaller...think about how long it takes to "settle down" 32 fifteen and sixteen year-old kids. Now you have to keep 32 "on task" and ensure that the compete lesson is finished for the day's curriculum....regardless of whether or not the students comprehended the lesson...the teacher has to go to the next lesson...cannot fall behind the required curriculum ...
quote:
Originally posted by Buttercup:

Yes, as long as the school is run by competent and caring staff. And I'm sure the mom of the little girl - the subject of many of these threads - thought her daughter was in a good school, one that was going to follow a clear directive not to paddle. Of course, that didn't happen.



If you believe the draft should have never been done away with then it's pointless to debate you on that, but I'll give it a shot. You're assuming that imposing military service on lost youth is the best option for them all - a blanket approach don't you think? Maybe so-called "troublemakers" share many of the same qualities, but they are all individuals and are driven by different motivations.

Can you honestly say that every kid who was forced to go to Vietnam came back all the better for it? It's clearly not for everyone, especially when forced. And even since the military has been voluntary, we hear all the time about the lasting mental and physical issues the veterans from the Gulf War and the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan have experienced.

I respect all of our veterans and would enlist myself if we were attacked inside our borders, but I wouldn't force military service on anyone, troublemaker or not.[/QUOTE]

I do not think paddling a student negates competence or caring in any way.
As for the reinstating the draft idea, I do not think that only the troublemakers should be drafted, I think it should be a blanket thing with a few exemptions such as continuing education after high school. You are correct that it's pointless to debate the subject as compulsory military service will never happen anyway.
I think the smaller classrooms would help a lot.
Check out the number of students in the public schools around here. The small number is unbeliveable, I can name schools but will not! In one city the number of student in 15 student or below classrooms, grades 1-6, is ridiculous. I will not name the system. There was a state mandate several years ago reducing the number of students in the classroom. I have seen a 1-10 student ratio on many days. there may be a classroom with 32 students- but probably not!
It shouldn't be hard to control 30 or more students. I recall pretty much all of my classes being that big. There were remedies for those who didn't behave. I recall maybe one time where a teacher really had to blow a gasket for an unruly classroom. The principal intervened and put the fear of God into us. If teachers are having problems controlling 15-20 students, then obviously those new-fangled forms of discipline and punishment aren't working very well.
quote:
Originally posted by lawguy07:
It shouldn't be hard to control 30 or more students. I recall pretty much all of my classes being that big. There were remedies for those who didn't behave. I recall maybe one time where a teacher really had to blow a gasket for an unruly classroom. The principal intervened and put the fear of God into us. If teachers are having problems controlling 15-20 students, then obviously those new-fangled forms of discipline and punishment aren't working very well.


Obviously the "old-fangled" forms of discipline weren't working very well either if you were in an unruly classroom that NEEDED to be controlled.

I mean, how is it that you could possibly have a group of "those who didn't behave" in the classroom if paddling worked?
Well considering I remember one incident out of 12 years of school, I'd say that's a pretty good track record. I've seen the movies where kids especially in inner city schools are sitting on the desks, throwing things, playing music, smoking, or whatever in class and the teacher can't or won't get control of the class. Nothing remotely akin to that happened in my school days. Granted, I didn't attend an inner city school in today's environment. But while there were a few troublemakers who got singled out and punished for acting up, there was virtually never a situation where a few bad apples disrupted an entire class. That was my point.
quote:
Originally posted by Rancid Apple:
quote:
Originally posted by BFred07:
This of course will never happen as there are too many bleeding hearts out there more concerned with “fixing” the troublemaker than helping good kids get an education


What a horrible notion.

The fact of the matter is that it costs (in Alabama) about 5,000 a year to educate a "troublemaker." It's costs 50,000 a year to incarcerate them.

These kinds of ignorant ideas have no place in these enlightened times.


If you think these are "enlightened times", you "ain't" seen nothing yet.
It was once said that in a local school system the principal could not keep good discipline. The real problem was that the school included the ninth grade in which a large number of students were eagerly waiting their 16th birthday so they could quit school. ( The high school principal bragged that he did not have all those problems.) When a person is 16 and disrupts the class or school, LET HIM/HER QUIT. If they wish to get a GED later they can do so!
quote:
Originally posted by lawguy07:
Well considering I remember one incident out of 12 years of school, I'd say that's a pretty good track record. I've seen the movies where kids especially in inner city schools are sitting on the desks, throwing things, playing music, smoking, or whatever in class and the teacher can't or won't get control of the class. Nothing remotely akin to that happened in my school days. Granted, I didn't attend an inner city school in today's environment. But while there were a few troublemakers who got singled out and punished for acting up, there was virtually never a situation where a few bad apples disrupted an entire class. That was my point.


So you're saying you only remember one incident in 12 years that required discipline? That's pretty amazing. I remember the same kids (boys) getting paddled from at least second to sixth grade over and over again; it actually became a joke to some of them. And that is my point: paddling just doesn't work.
quote:
Originally posted by lawguy07:
Apparently I grew up in Mayberry. We just didn't have very many problems at school. I guess I'm just too old to get it.


Neither do I remember any major dicipline problems in high school. It is true that a small percentage got most of the paddlings however, the small percentage, of which I was a member, were the ones into most of the mischief. I can truthfully say I never received a paddling I didn't deserve and appreciate the fact my teachers cared enough to keep me focused on how to act in school. I graduated at Colbert County High in the mid 1960's and guarantee anyone that children do not receive the same quality education now as then. It's not the teachers, it should't be money .... so why could it be?????
quote:
Originally posted by William Turner:
quote:
Originally posted by lawguy07:
Apparently I grew up in Mayberry. We just didn't have very many problems at school. I guess I'm just too old to get it.


Neither do I remember any major dicipline problems in high school. It is true that a small percentage got most of the paddlings however, the small percentage, of which I was a member, were the ones into most of the mischief. I can truthfully say I never received a paddling I didn't deserve and appreciate the fact my teachers cared enough to keep me focused on how to act in school. I graduated at Colbert County High in the mid 1960's and guarantee anyone that children do not receive the same quality education now as then. It's not the teachers, it should't be money .... so why could it be?????


One-word answer: PARENTING.

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